Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help

[Omegonthesane]

Haven't played since 5th ed and was never very good at it, but the way I remember my old Chaos codices the average plasma pistol cost a sizeable fraction of the maybe one Spehss Mehren you were going to kill with it. Anything that's in pistol range is in Move & Charge range, so with plasma pistols you weren't going to get another shot.

Used to go balls to the wall with plasma rifles though, partly because they mostly wanted the same targets as bolters so you could take them on normal CSM squads without wishing you had Splitfire.

[Koumei]

It's more the price than anything else. They're still 12" S 7 AP 2 Pistol Gets Hot! And you still get an armour save on Gets Hot! Sure, people probably overestimate the chance of exploding because bad things ALWAYS happen EVERY TIME (that you remember).

But overall, Space Marines and Imperial Guard can take Plasma Guns for the same price (just, not on sergeants). Which has either double the range or double the rate of fire. Also, not being on a sergeant means that 1/18 (or 1/9 or whatever it works out to for a Guardsman) of self-destruction doesn't even reduce the unit's Ld value and take away any Melta Bombs or Power Weapons they had.

If Plasma Pistols were priced at +10, I'd be all for them. It just feels too much that they cost as much as a full Plasma Gun and have a (very small) chance of removing potentially the most important model in the unit. I may have overstated my case though.

I'm not super-delighted about Inferno Pistols costing more than Melta Guns either, for the record. Yes it lets you dual wield them (for only 30 points!), or get +1 A when you also have a Power Maul or whatever, and in that case you're not reducing the RoF (Pistol vs Assault 1). But you're paying more for the privilege of halving your range - in order to get the Melta Bonus you need to be rubbing your tits up against the tank, thus placing yourself inside the radius for its explosion.

[Omegonthesane]

FWIW I never even considered taking plasma pistols on Khorne Berserkers. Not helped by my first Chaos codex being the 3.5ed one where they had to roll 3+ to not uncontrollably run & try to charge at the nearest target, and the item that made you roll twice and require both to be 3+ to act normally was considered an upgrade that you paid points for.

Wonder how many things would break and how fast if you could just use pistols as close combat weapons with their ranged attack profile and all the drawbacks - if I was allowed to use plasma pistols as power swords, I might've taken them on aforementioned Khorne Berserkers...

[OgreBattle]

15pts is something that can be spent on a plasma gun, plasma cannon, lascannon, and so on on something else in the army that will probably have more chances to fire than a 12" one shot pistol. Or a crucial wargear or vehicle upgrade that makes another unit way better.

Not buying 3 plasma pistols then gets me a rhino transport, a bit more and it's a Razorback or land speeder.

an amusing newish rule is 'gunslinger', where any model with two pistols can fire both pistols but it's uncommon for a model to get two pistols. I think gunslinger used to be exclusive to the Dark Angel Cypher. The updated eldar corsairs all count as having two shuriken and splinter pistols (so 4 total) and get to fire any combination of two shots. They could spend 30pts to take dual blast pistols but those 30pts can pay for better guns elsewhere, deeply unfortunate as dual pistols would be a unique aspect of that army.

GW is also weird with often making average BS4 A1 guys pay the same price for swords and guns as their bs5 a3 leaders. Or the very frail vyper paying the same cost for holofields as the Falcon that's more durable and 3x pricier...

[Koumei]

an amusing newish rule is 'gunslinger', where any model with two pistols can fire both pistols but it's uncommon for a model to get two pistols. I think gunslinger used to be exclusive to the Dark Angel Cypher.

Ahem.

[Username17]

15pts is something that can be spent on a plasma gun, plasma cannon, lascannon, and so on on something else in the army that will probably have more chances to fire than a 12" one shot pistol.

Certainly a big problem that 40k has is that GW can't seem to decide what a point means. There simply isn't a consistent theory of costs.

Lascannons cost more points in devastator squads than in tactical squads because heavy weapons are more useful in dedicated squads. Power weapons are more expensive on characters than on squaddies because the heroes attack more. But how do you square that idea with the fact that a Veteran Sergeant and a Force Commander pay the same for their power fists? Or that a squad boosting standard costs the same on a squad with 5 boostable troops as it does on a squad with twenty?

Now obviously making the point system completely utility dependent is impossible. Utility is in many cases dependent on what your opponent is doing or how dense the terrain on the battlefield is - neither of which are even knowable when you're spending your points. That Lascannon is a lot more useful on an empty plain with some enemy heavy vehicles at the other end than it is in a dense jungle over which your opponent is hopping cheap and fragile jumppack infantry.

But GW makes little half assed forays into tying troop and wargear cost to subjective utility all the time. And they don't follow those up.

-Username17

[name_here]

Rounding out notable aliens

Tau
The Tau are the only faction that manages a reasonable approximation of being good people. The Eldar have rigged their ascension from the stone age to supremely technologically advanced over six thousand years. They're divided into the Fire caste, their ground forces, the Air caste, their space and aerial forces, the Water caste, their diplomats and administrators, the Earth caste, their engineers and laborers, and the Ethereal caste, their rulers with a poorly-understood ability to control the other castes by nefarious means. They believe that everyone should be united in the name of the Greater Good, preferably peacefully. The only alien race that the Imperium really has diplomatic relations with, though mostly because various other military priorities keep cropping up.

Tau have no warp connection, are largely immune to psychic influence, have no psychic powers, and don't really understand the Warp. This also means they have no navigators and must do things the hard way, so their speed is like a sixth of what Imperial fleets get. As far as they're concerned, Chaos is something that happens to other people. Their alien allies aren't always so lucky.

They run a multispecies empire, and have integrated several of them into their military. The Kroot provide their core melee combat support, the Vespid fly. Canonically they've also got a bunch of former Imperial Guard units, who mostly retain their old organization and equipment and are generally deployed as far away from Imperial loyalists as the Tau can manage due to concerns about their loyalty.

Tyranids

Biological extra-galactic invaders with a hive mind. So far three major Hive Fleets have attacked the galaxy, two of which have been repelled with heavy losses. The latest, Hive Fleet Leviathan, has been decoyed into a relatively large Ork territory, which the Ordo Xenos thinks was probably a long-term mistake. If the Tyranids win, they eat their dead and the Ork dead and rebuild their fleet, augmented with new bio-forms. If the Orks win, they will have suffered massive casualties but also have drawn in Orks from thousands of light-years around, so there will be fewer Orks total but more under a single Warboss.

Basic tyranids are animalistic and uncoordinated. They're controlled by Synapse creatures, which relay the hive mind's control. Killing them throws the nearby basic creatures into disarray, so they tend to be larger and tougher and usually have spares.

Tyranids generate The Shadow In The Warp, blocking astrotelepathic communications and the light of the Astronomicon in a large area. It's possible to navigate through it, but very difficult, though it apparently also calms the Warp somewhat.

A particularly notable bioform is the genestealer. They can inject most/all sentient lifeforms with their DNA, which then causes them to fall under the control of the genestealer group mind. Their descendants will be heavily mutated and also in the group mind; they become less mutated until the fourth generation, which are either basically indistinguishable from humans or purestrain stealers. They tend to hide as variant Ecclesiarchical cults, with theologies that don't match official doctrine but aren't threatening enough to draw a reprisal. Once they've sufficiently infiltrated a planet and spawned enough purestrains, they set up a psychic beacon to call in a Hive Fleet and undermine the local defenses, often launching populist uprisings.

Joekero

The Joekero are another Old Ones creation, who instinctively "upgrade" any technology they get their hands on. Sometimes this means adding useless buttons for aesthetic purposes, sometimes this means turning a rusted-out superheavy tank designed for close assault into a precision anti-air platform that can make 500KPH. The Inquisition grabs as many as they possibly can.

[maglag]

Lascannons cost more points in devastator squads than in tactical squads because heavy weapons are more useful in dedicated squads. Power weapons are more expensive on characters than on squaddies because the heroes attack more. But how do you square that idea with the fact that a Veteran Sergeant and a Force Commander pay the same for their power fists?

It's simple actually. The force commander has an higher I than the veteran sergeant, so it's sacrificing more for taking the power fist that dumps both their I to 1.

[Koumei]

These days they just returned to the old Wargear tables where everyone pays the same cost for the same item (exception: they might still do the X/Y where X is if you're wearing Power Armour and Y is if you're not. Or they might not) and you have to keep flipping pages because it just says "May take options from these seven lists" rather than listing all the options for that specific thing.

About the only exception to this is if it can only take a few limited options (ie can only swap for a Flamer, Melta or Plasma Gun instead of all the Special Weapons) or has a special unique option (ie Assault/Vanguard Marines taking Eviscerators). In the former case, it'll still use the "standard" cost though.

I think it was 4-5Ed where each unit specifically listed what upgrades it could take, and at what costs (and Space Marines basically had free weapon upgrades for taking 10 models per squad). But not any more, and that means that Devvies take lascannons at the same price everyone else does. They're still very expensive, but if you take four in one squad, you won't find yourself saying "This is fucking stupid, if I just took one in each of four Tac squads and had Split Fire it'd be cheaper. Assholes."

Similarly, Power Weapons cost +15 points for everyone. For him:


Or him:


Or him:

[Koumei]

HQ CHOICES

Canoness (65 points)


The Canoness is the strategic and tactical leader of an Adepta Sororitas mission - well-trained in the art of warfare and of logistics, they raise armies and lead them to battle, directing troops and providing supporting fire rather than leaping into the fray. Their value on the field is more than just their offensive capability, and indeed a lot of their work is done before heading to the battlefield, but nonetheless, they are capable warriors and can bring victory through many ways.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Canoness	5	6	3	3	3	4	2	10	3+

Unit Composition: 1 Canoness
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Stubborn, Shield of Faith, Guidance, Faithful, Independent Character

Martyrdom: if the Canoness is the army Warlord and is removed as a casualty, then until the end of their next player turn, the army has the Fearless and Rage rules.

Ascendant Guidance: in the heat of battle, only the greatest commanders can keep a cool head and rise above the chaos to direct troops, guiding them to victory.
Instead of moving in the Movement Phase, the Canoness may nominate one friendly unit within 12” that is in Line of Sight. That unit gains either Tank Hunter or Monster Hunter for the rest of the Player Turn.

Options:
The Canoness may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Weapons, Holy Artefacts and Other Wargear lists.

Sidebar - how do I model these? if you have a Canoness metal mini, you can use her just fine. Alternatively, the following TGG2: Sisters minis can be used, depending on wargear: Augusta, Templar Seraqui, Sister Altarii, Reyallia, The Huntress.

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Palatine (60 points)


Only of slightly lower rank than the Canoness, Palatines are not simply junior officers, they are known to excel in a more direct application of martial study. Bringing the best warriors with them, they lead by example, colliding with enemy forces and often looking for the largest targets to slay. The honour of an Order often grows in the heart of a Palatine.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Palatine	5	5	3	3	3	4	3	10	3+

Unit Composition: 1 Palatine
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Wargear: Power Armour, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Stubborn, Shield of Faith, Guidance, Faithful, Independent Character

The Passion: a Palatine leads by example, always in the thick of battle and surrounded by enemies. She strikes with a hatred born of holy fervour.
Whenever the Palatine's Faith Rating, or that of a unit she has joined, is more than 4, she gains the Rampage special rule. If it is more than 7, she also gains the Zealot special rule.

Options:
The Palatine may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Holy Artefacts and Other Wargear lists.

Sidebar - how do I model these? if you have a Canoness metal mini, you can use her just fine. Alternatively, the following TGG2: Sisters minis can be used, depending on wargear: Augusta, Templar Seraqui, Sister Altarii, Reyallia, The Huntress.

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Sororitas Command Squad (75 points)


One Sororitas Command Squad may be taken, without using a force organisation slot, for each Canoness or Palatine included in the army. This includes Saint Celestine, Prioress Serenity, Canoness Amity, Saint Ravia, Palatine Litira and Sister Sabine Mina.

Tasked with helping to coordinate and direct the forces as well as to protect the Heroines of the Adepta Sororitas, these command squads consist of some of the best warriors available, each worthy of leading a unit of her own. Furthermore, they bring with them the Dialogus who can use her voice as a weapon, and the Hospitaller, who can save a life in seconds.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Celestian Veteran	4	4	3	3	1	4	2	9	3+
Sister Dialogus	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	9	3+
Sister Hospitaller	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	9	3+

Unit Composition: 3 Celestian Veterans, 1 Sister Dialogus, 1 Sister Hospitaller
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Wargear: Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
-Celestian Veterans: Boltgun with Sarissa
-Sister Dialogus: Nunciate Staff
-Sister Hospitaller: Medicum Ministorum
Special Rules: Shield of Faith, Stubborn, Faithful
-Sister Dialogus: Guidance

Endless Crusade: when they decide to move, there is no stopping the leaders and guardians of the Adepta Sororitas. They stride forward with a determination that can only be halted through death.
If the unit's Faith Rating is more than 6, they may instead treat it as 6. Whenever it is 5 or 6 (whether naturally or by reducing it to this), they also gain Crusaders.

Dedicated Guardians: if a Palatine, Canoness, or single unique character is attached to the unit during deployment, the unit of Celestian Veterans is dedicated to that heroine: they automatically pass Look Out, SirMa'am! rolls for that character.

Options:
The unit may contain up to 5 additional Celestian Veterans (15 points per model)
All Celestian Veterans may exchange their Power Armour for Shield Robes (5 points per model)
The Sister Hospitaller may exchange he Medicus Ministorum for a Vivisector (25 points)
One Celestian Veteran may be an Imagifer and take one of the following:

• Simulacrum Imperialis (5 points)
• Sacred Banner of the Order (20 points)

Any other Celestians may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Weapons and/or Heavy Weapons lists.

The unit may select a Rhino, Repressor or Immolator as a Dedicated Transport.

Sidebar - how do I model these? you can use basically any of the following, depending on what they carry: Adepta Sororitas minis, Daughters of the Crucible (TGG2), Regular Sisters (TGG2). For the Sister Hospitaller, there is an actual Sister Hospitaller, or you could use the Field Resurrectrix (TGG2) or Trematta (TGG2). For the Sister Dialogus, there is an actual Sister Dialogus or you could use Sol-Sarya (TGG2) or Zaraya (TGG2).

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Ministorum Priest (25 points)


Up to three Ministorum Priests may be taken without using a force organisation slot. A Ministorum Priest who is not joined by one or more additional models must be attached to a friendly unit during Deployment, and cannot leave that unit. Ministorum Priests do not qualify as a mandatory HQ selection.

The Ecclesiarchy constantly work with the Adepta Sororitas, relying upon them in times of war, and used to having the Sisterhood amongst them. However, while they may not keep an army of their own, individuals will often join a battle, a combination of fanatics, maniacs, sinners living in a state of rage, and bombastic preachers.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Ministorum Priest	3	3	3	3	1	3	2	7	-
Arco-Flagellant	5	1	5	3	1	3	3	8	-
Death Cultist	5	3	4	3	1	6	2	8	-
Crusader	4	3	3	3	1	3	1	8	5+

Unit Composition: 1 Ministorum Priest
Unit Type: Infantry. The Ministorum Priest is Infantry (Character).
Wargear:
-Ministorum Priest: Rosarius, Laspistol, Chainsword, Frag and Krak Grenades.
-Arco-Flagellant: two Arco-Flails.
-Death Cult Assassin: two Power Swords.
-Crusader: Flak Armour, Power Weapon, Storm Shield.
Special Rules:
-Ministorum Priest: Zealot.
-Arco-Flagellant: Feel No Pain.

War Hymns: the Ministorum Priest can take a Leadership test at the beginning of each Fight sub-phase in which he is locked in combat. If the test is successful, choose one of the following War Hymns to take immediate effect.

• The Emperor Protects: as the Priest's impassioned calls ring out across the battlefield, the faithful feel the blessing of the God-Emperor across them. The Ministorum Priest and his unit re-roll all failed Armour and Invulnerable Saves until the end of the phase.
• The Emperor's Strength: shouting out the prime canticle of Saint Brutos the Belligerent, the Priest calls upon the Emperor to help him smite his foes. The Ministorum Priest has the Smash special rule until the end of the phase.
• The Righteousness of the Emperor: the Priest bellows psalms of vengeance into the faces of the foe, exhorting his followers to excel in the Emperor's sight. The Ministorum Priest and his unit re-roll failed rolls To Wound until the end of the phase.

Uncanny Reflexes: a Death Cult Assassin has a 5+ Invulnerable Save

Options:
The Ministorum Priest may be joined by up to ten of the following:

• Arco-Flagellants (10 points per model)
• Death Cultist Assassins (15 points per model)
• Crusaders (15 points per model)

The Ministorum Priest may take items from the Melee Weapons and Ranged Weapons lists.
He may also purchase any of the following:

• Melta Bombs (5 points)
• Purity Seals (5 points)
• Plasma Gun (15 points)

The unit may select a Rhino, Repressor or Immolator as a Dedicated Transport.

Sidebar - how do I model these? you can just about grab a handful of any minis from any game for these. Priests can look like just about anything (though GW has priest models for its games), you can use the assassins/fanatics of your choice for death cultists (GW has models for these, but nothing is stopping you from using "sword-wielding unarmoured maniacs" from Warmahordes), and so on.

[Username17]

These days they just returned to the old Wargear tables where everyone pays the same cost for the same item (exception: they might still do the X/Y where X is if you're wearing Power Armour and Y is if you're not. Or they might not) and you have to keep flipping pages because it just says "May take options from these seven lists" rather than listing all the options for that specific thing.

That's a regression to 2nd edition. It's less work for the writers but more work for the readers. Of course, setting all the costs the same for each piece of wargear is also fundamentally a lie. A power sword or a multimelta cannot be bought "on its own" and wouldn't do anything if it did. Models aren't divisible into their constituent wargear. A Guardsman with a Lascannon has a BS 3 Lascannon, while a Marine with a Lascannon has a BS 4 Lascannon. By making a master wargear cost table, all they are really saying is that the cost difference between a Marine with a Bolter and a Marine with a Plasma Gun is exactly the same as the cost difference between a Guardsman with a Lasgun and a Guardsman with a Plasmagun. And that's pretty clearly wrong. It would be an astronomical coincidence if Guardsman with the Plasma Gun was worth nearly four times his Lasgun brethren while the Space Marine Plasma Gunner was worth twice as much as his Bolter using squad mate and the absolute value of those differences happened to be exactly the same.

Obviously those upgrades cost too much for one model and/or too little for the other. Because fucking obviously. And then you have various elite units and special units and such who gain more or less by upgrading their weaponry and cost more or less to begin with. It's impossible that all such are fairly costed at the same absolute value of points. Hell, some are literally getting a better upgrade (by trading in a worse weapon with the same BS) for a lower relative point increase (by costing more to begin with for other reasons).

Everything since d6 Edition was Games Workshop showing that they just didn't have any more fucks to give. Fantasy has gone all the way to making actual rules to measure player mustache lengths and throwing proverbial empty liquor bottles at the children. But 40k has gone to shovelware as well.

To bring this to Koumei's ideas: Why would you have the Sisters of Battle have Ork profiles? Basically, every army should try to develop an ecological niche that makes them interesting to talk about. Units that are Toughness 4 and wear Power Armor are extremely common. That's all the various flavors of Marines, and that's the vast majority of armies. If the Space Nuns are to be a thing, they need to be different in some way. And having a different toughness profile even if it is weaker is a great way to do that.

Toughness 3 with Power Armor is a pretty rare combination. It's basically just Striking Scorpions and Incubi (who are Striking Scorpions from the Dark Eldar). Having an army that's mostly that makes it stand distinct from the other armies in a way that each flavor of Marine just really fails to do.

-Username17

[Koumei]

I was going to take a screencap of Codex: Sisters of Battle... the second edition codex. Then upload that to a thing. Then put that picture in this post. But I can't really be fucked doing that. So basically "Because 2E". But also because T 3 means every single Plasma Gun causes Instant Death to your expensive HQ choice. For that matter it puts your entire army in a bracket known as "Imperial Guard and friends", where every squad is meant to just be a throwaway thing that gets mulched up by Frag Missiles and shit. And if I wanted to play an Imperial army where the infantry are really shitty, Imperial Guard are right there.

So it's either Toughness 4, or just give every single model a 5++ and be done with it.

[Username17]

I'm aware of 2nd edition. Hell, I played wuth 2nd edition Sisters of Battle. I painted them up like Sailore Scouts and they were auxiliaries in my Crystal Tokyo Planetary Defense Force army. In 2nd edition, they handed out boosts in toughness like it was candy. Even Guard Colonels and shit had increased Toughness. Toughness 4 or even 5 just weren't hard to get in even the squishiest armies. 2nd edition toughness values are a non-argument.

But also because T 3 means every single Plasma Gun causes Instant Death to your expensive HQ choice. For that matter it puts your entire army in a bracket known as "Imperial Guard and friends", where every squad is meant to just be a throwaway thing that gets mulched up by Frag Missiles and shit. And if I wanted to play an Imperial army where the infantry are really shitty, Imperial Guard are right there.

This is stupid and also wrong. First of all, if your expensive HQ choice is taking Plasma gun fire, it doesn't much matter whether they are instant killed by the experience, because Plasma Gun shots don't come by the each and the damn things wound even Force Commanders on a 2+. Whether they kill your expensive HQ leader outright or "just" cause a wound, the amount of points you're losing from that interaction is atrocious and you're clearly about to lose your expensive HQ choice either way. Your expensive HQ choice shouldn't be in any position to take Plasma fire until after she's killed something of equal or greater value, in which case it no longer matters.

But more importantly, Toughness 3 armies full of expensive elites exist, and they are really powerful. Everyone is lining up to suck Eldar cock these days, and it's not because they have Toughness 4. Some of the best units in Dark Eldar land are the Incubi, who rip the shit out of everything and they still have Toughness 3 and 3+ saves. Having a Marine-sized army where the units are Toughness 3 instead of Toughness 4 is perfectly possible - they just have to hit proportionately harder.

Most Marines are outfitted with a Boltgun - which is a decidedly mediocre weapon. It's not terrible, it's basically the galactic standard. But it's not all that great. More importantly, it doesn't synergize all that well with a lot of other things your squad might want to do. Rapidfire gun users usually want to not move and fire at infantry targets, which is fine and dandy if you have a Heavy Bolter and a Plasma Gun on a couple of units, but synergizes quite badly with Lascannons, Melta Guns, or Flamers (all of which want to move and shoot, fire at heavy vehicles, or in the case of the Melta - both). The Eldar Aspect Warrior game plan, where all the models in the squad are outfitted for the same kind of action, is inherently superior under 40k rules. Having a squad of Fire Dragons who all move and shoot at Tanks and a squad of Dark Reapers who stand and fire at Infantry and a squad of Howling Banshees who run into close combat with Infantry is just better than the more "realistic" mixed squads of the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines under 40k's bizarre targeting rules. The Eldar Aspect Warriors are such a better fit for 40K's rules that they would be better than Space Marines even if they weren't competitively costed and loaded down with awesome freebies in their codex.

Barring a complete change in the rules to something simpler and better (which is badly overdue), you can make the Sisters of Battle totally competitive just by making their squads more pure in terms of weaponry selection.

So let's say that your troops are "Bolter Squads." They are 5-10 Sisters with Boltguns. One of them can be upgraded to a Heavy Bolter, and if you have 10 Sisters you can upgrade two to Heavy Bolters. Now your elites are "Burner Squads" that's a Pistol/CCW leader and 4-9 Sisters with Flamers. You can upgrade one to a Heavy Flamer and if you have 10 total sisters you can take 2 Heavy Flamers. Do something similar for Melta squads and so on and so forth. By having squads that actually use weapons and tactics that synergize with the fucking rules like at all, you could simply be extremely powerful.

A squad with 7 Flamers and 2 Heavy Flamers that all carry Melta Bombs wouldn't need to have Toughness 4 to kill their points worth of pretty much whatever you pointed them at.

There's no need to get penis envy over Space Marine stat lines. Just figure out something tactically effective that you want your squads to do, and then write up squads that do those things and are competitively costed for the role. The end.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Fair enough. They can be Imperial Eldar in the sense that they read the rules of their setting and figured out that Aspect Warrior Squads are the way to go. While everyone else in the Imperium thinks the rules work like the real world or something.

You're wrong about Incubi though, people don't take them. But you could arguably put that down to them being expensive melee guys who run up to you and chargeget shot. I think the only reason people use Banshees (when they ever do) is to negate Overwatch (generally carrying allied HQ choices, so the squad is basically an expensive piece of wargear).

Fire Dragons, on the other hand, yes, people love them some Fire Dragons and they're a T 3 Elite choice with metal minis last produced in the 1860s, which clearly makes them the best analogue to go for.

Also I approve of the way you painted them up. I used greenstuff to give one mini Usagi's hair, but that's about the extent of it.

Edit: went back and changed the T (and the Palatine's S), and reduced their costs accordingly. Also gave the Command Squad a thing so that they can readily leap in the way of Multilasers, Autocannons and "Basically every Eldar weapon that doesn't fire ninja stars, Jesus fuck for some people who hate Slaanesh they love the number 6".

[Omegonthesane]

Also, if you're that worried about the Canoness getting gibbed by S7 attacks, can't you just give her Eternal Warrior or the like?

Frag missiles are going to struggle against power armour no matter their chance to wound a given target, so that isn't really a thing.

I wonder how much of 40K would shit bricks if one or other of these "realistic squad, mixed armaments" armies just made every special weapon come with Splitfire. Could you cost it accordingly?

[Koumei]

GW are stingy with Eternal Warrior these days. It used to be the new black, but no longer. So instead they are just strongly encouraged to take Command Squads. You know, like they're supposed to do.

Elites or Troops or whatever comes later. I need to do some drinking, then try sleeping again, then tomorrow think stuff up and maybe go over it or run it past my editor.



Well shit.

[Username17]

For metal minis, I used bake-on Sculpy to make hair mods and skirts for some of the officers. I was never much for green stuff. A band of sculpey around the waist that you then roll over with a pin makes a great pleated skirt.

Anyway, as to whether Incubi are currently any good or not, I don't really know. They were generally able to kill their points worth in a 3rd/4th edition Dark Eldar army by putting them into counter-charge duty. That is, an effective Dark Eldar army was (contrary to fluff) actually a "sit back and shoot dark lances at people" army. One of the things that could really ruin your day was to have moderately good assault troops come and rip up your warrior squads. And the Incubi could be placed in reserve to go intercept whatever expensive fuckers they sent towards your firing lines that seemed like they might actually get through. But Dark Eldar get codices less than half as often as rules get revised, so I have no idea what an effective Dark Eldar army would look like today and I rather imagine that the people actually running Games Workshop don't either.

-Username17

[maglag]

Aspect Sailor Scout Sisters sound beyond awesome. They should totally be a set of special heroines for Koumei's homebrew codex like the Phoenix Ladies.


Effective DE armies nowadays are about being as shooty as possible, and that applies to basically every other army (unless you're playing Khorne Daemonkin in which case you really can't go shooty, but your casualities can be turned into new assault stuff mid-game). As Koumei points out, the overwatch rules means there's a lot less (effective) charging nowadays. Plus for some reason Incubi are about as expensive as they were in the old days despite getting a 7th edition codex, while everything else got cheaper.

[Koumei]

I'm convinced - there will be six special characters (the special priests can get fucked). One will be Saint Celestine. Helena, Sabbat and Praxedes are sadly dead, so this leaves five choices. (I wonder who they will be!)

Incidentally, I have Erelim, Ophanim, Celestians and Seraphim locked in as orders of angels that are used for units. What are some other good orders of angels in the various fan-fics people made for the Bible that would be appropriate? I thought there was a type called Mehabelim, but an image search only gives me stuff on Mossad killing Princess Di.

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TROOPS CHOICES

Erelim Choir (70 points)


Acting as the frontline for the Adepta Sororitas, the Erelim Choirs are the "rank and file" soldiers, all armed with a variety of bolter weapons. They unleash volleys of fire at enemies, whittling them down in a hail of ammunition as they march forward. They know the importance of their mission, and will gladly throw their lives away if it will bring victory.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Veteran Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	2	9	3+
Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	8	3+
Sister Erelim	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	8	3+

Unit Composition: 1 Sister Superior and 4 Sisters Erelim
Unit Type: Infantry. Sister Superior and Veteran Sister Superior are Infantry (Character).
Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Faithful, Shield of Faith (Sister Superior and Veteran Sister Superior), Guidance (Veteran Sister Superior)

Divine Guidance: guided by the will of the Emperor himself, the Erelim are able to, in times of need, fire with unerring accuracy that shatters any defences with contemptuous ease.
Once per game, the Erelim Choir may gain the Rending special rule for the duration of their Shooting Phase. This applies to all weapons used in that Phase.

Options:
The unit may include up to 15 additional Sisters Erelim (13 points per model)
For every five models, one Sister Erelim may exchange her Boltgun for a:

• Storm Bolter (2 points)
• Gatling Bolter (10 points)
• Heavy Bolter (10 points)

One model may be an Imagifer and take a Simulacrum Imperialis (10 points)
The Sister Superior may be upgraded to a Veteran Sister Superior (10 points)
The Sister Superior or Veteran Superior may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons and Other Wargear lists.
The unit may take one of the following options:

• Blessed Ammunition (2 points per model)
• Inferno Shells (2 points per model)

The unit may select a Rhino, Repressor or Immolator as a Dedicated Transport.

Sidebar - how do I model these? if you have a pile of Sisters of Battle models, you're good to go. Alternatively, use the Regular Sisters from TGG2: Sisters.

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Schola Progenium Initiates (75 points)


The forces of the Adepta Sororitas are drawn almost exclusively from the Schola Progenium - the orphanage and scholastic system of the Imperium. Although the majority of those chosen for the Sororitas spend their training on campus and in temples, not seeing the battlefield until fully ordained, there are those who are gifted - or unfortunate - enough to be chosen as emergency fighters in times of need. What they lack in training and equipment, they hopefully make up for in enthusiasm.

Model	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Mistress	4	4	3	3	1	4	2	10	3+
Veteran Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	2	9	3+
Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	8	3+
Initiate	3	3	3	3	1	3	1	6	5+

Unit Composition: 1 Sister Superior and 9 Initiates
Unit Type: Infantry. Sister Superior, Mistress and Veteran Sister Superior are Infantry (Character).
Wargear: Frag Grenades
-Sister Superior and Veteran Sister Superior: Power Armour, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Krak Grenades
-Initiates: Autopistol, Close Combat Weapon, Flak Armour or Field Plate
-Mistress: Power Armour, two Neuro Whips, Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Shield of Faith (Mistress, Veteran Sister Superior and Sister Superior)

Battlefield Training: while a Sister Superior or Veteran Sister Superior is part of the unit, the entire unit gains the Stealth and Move Through Cover special rules. While a Mistress is part of the unit, the entire unit gains the Zealots special rule. If the Character is removed as a casualty and there is no other Character or Independent Character attached, the unit gain the Rage special rule but lack the coordination to fire Overwatch or hold an objective (though they may Contest objectives).

Outstanding Features: only the best of the Schola Progenum are actually selected to take part in battlefield ventures, and as such there is something that sets them aside. One of the following must be chosen before Deployment:

• Hive Gangers: the Initiates are WS 4 and I 4 and have the Hammer of Wrath special rule.
• Death Worlders: the Initiates have Feel No Pain 6+.
• Honour Students: the unit is Faithful. The Veteran Sister Superior or Mistress gains the Guidance rule.
• Feudal World Warriors: the unit is Stubborn and any Schola Initiate may exchange her Autopistol for a Longbow for free

Options:
The unit may include up to 20 additional Initiates (7 points per model)

For every 10 models, one Initiate may exchange her Autopistol for a:

• Bolt Pistol (1 point)
• Shotgun (2 points)
• Flamer (5 points)
• Hand Flamer (5 points)

For every 10 models, one Initiate may exchange both of her weapons for a Heavy Chainsword (5 points)
The Sister Superior may be upgraded to one of the following:

• Veteran Superior (10 points)
• Mistress (20 points)

The Sister Superior or Veteran Superior may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons and Other Wargear lists.
The Mistress may take items from the Other Wargear list.

The unit may select a Rhino or Repressor as a Dedicated Transport.

Sidebar - how do I model these? I would recommend Blade Maidens or (Fantasy) Regular Sisters from TGG2: Sisters. But if you have a bunch of Sisters of Sigmar from the old Mordenheim thing, you could easily convert them by just giving them pistols.

[Username17]

Incidentally, I have Erelim, Ophanim, Celestians and Seraphim locked in as orders of angels that are used for units. What are some other good orders of angels in the various fan-fics people made for the Bible that would be appropriate?

Malakhim - Messenger angels. Presumably for the "all Sniper Rifles" anti-monstrous creature squad. Or a jet pack squad. Either way.
Ishim - the angels who interpret for prophets. Could be used for pretty much anything.
Hashmalim - Fire angels. Obviously, this is either the flamer squad or one of the melta squads (the squad with melta guns and melta bombs is likely not the same as the squad with multimeltas).
Elohim - Judging angels. Could be used for literally any squad.
Chayot - Angels that glow so brightly they start fires. This would be my pick for a Melta squad.
Cherubim - Chimera, basically. Four heads of different animals, wings. For various extremely weird reasons, this name also refers to those little naked baby angels you see on fountains and greeting cards.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Thanks, I can definitely work with that. Also forget I said Bible fanfic, I forgot that the majority of them are actually from ancient Hebrew (with some Bible fanfics/Apocrypha basically taking them and changing the names).

And wasn't there an intermediary stage for Cherubim where they were just disembodied baby heads with dove wings sticking out the back? As portrayed in many paintings of the Nativity:

Sometimes with clouds and space helmets.
And apparently a crucifix, which is weird given Jesus had only just been born and had another 30 years before being crucified. On the moon.
Also the floating crossed out P there, wow, you could have a field day going over these.

I've gone back and added "How do I model these?" to things. I feel the two Troops are enough there, but maybe I'll put the Snipers there too - Snipers are often Troops (Space Marines, Eldar) or Elites (Necrons, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar). If I end up with just too many Elite things then I'll shift them across to Troops.

[Judging__Eagle]

Most Marines are outfitted with a Boltgun - which is a decidedly mediocre weapon. It's not terrible, it's basically the galactic standard. But it's not all that great. More importantly, it doesn't synergize all that well with a lot of other things your squad might want to do. Rapidfire gun users usually want to not move and fire at infantry targets, which is fine and dandy if you have a Heavy Bolter and a Plasma Gun on a couple of units, but synergizes quite badly with Lascannons, Melta Guns, or Flamers (all of which want to move and shoot, fire at heavy vehicles, or in the case of the Melta - both). The Eldar Aspect Warrior game plan, where all the models in the squad are outfitted for the same kind of action, is inherently superior under 40k rules. Having a squad of Fire Dragons who all move and shoot at Tanks and a squad of Dark Reapers who stand and fire at Infantry and a squad of Howling Banshees who run into close combat with Infantry is just better than the more "realistic" mixed squads of the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines under 40k's bizarre targeting rules. The Eldar Aspect Warriors are such a better fit for 40K's rules that they would be better than Space Marines even if they weren't competitively costed and loaded down with awesome freebies in their codex.


-Username17

Interestingly enough; this fact also applied to the Dawn of War PC game's Eldar. Their ability to train and raise squads for specific purposes was really handy. Additionally, making "one special weapon" squads were very much the norm even for Space Marine and IG squads; especially if training for multiplayer by playing against Hard->Insane AIs. While a group of "mixed" squad of SM's with 2 flamers and 2 bolters was "alright" at holding or pushing a line; having the "point" squad equipped with 4 flamers; and any supporting squads carrying 4 hvy. bolters was incredibly more effective at both holding and pushing a position.

The advantage Eldar had was that they had a larger variety of specialist squads (reapers, banshees, fire dragons, warp spiders); but of course using them synergistically and in a coordinated manner was more difficult.

The opposite of that was how DoW treated Orks with such widely differing mechanics that DoW Ork armies looked nothing like tabletop armies; and DoW orks played totally the opposite of the other factions. One big thing was they had no squad cap (which everyone else did); and instead had a total unit cap (of 100; higher than the other factions could field; except perhaps IG). Making a basic squad, with minimum troops (3 boys), upgraded squad leader, and maximum special weapons (3 special weapons); the ideal squad type to build. Of course; such micro management got in the way when you eventually could spawn choppa squads for free; and the best defense structures Orks had were their regular buildings (the upgrade structure; Pile o' Guns was both small in footprint and cost; but had HP through the roof compared to the fragile Ork Towers (which you couldn't afford to lose, as they were your population cap structures)); not their dedicated defensive structures.

Despite those differences; the specialist Ork squads (tankbustas, flash gitz, 'eavy armour nobz, nobz squad) were more spearheads; than tools to use in synergy with each other. Mostly because you could only build a pair (or even only one) of each specialist squad type. Shocktroopers (i.e. with jump packs) didn't have a cap; but weren't really useful outside of flanking enemy forces via their jump ability to turn a stalemated shooting/fighting match between groups of troops into a win (of course; DoW's allowing of squads to shoot into enemies engaged in melee with your own troops is also a radical departure from post-2e 40k).

In the tabletop; specialist squads also tend to be more useful than generalist squads. However this can be achieved in different manners. Back in 5e; marines could get missile launchers and flamers for free; and could split their squads. It was like having your cake; and eating it too, as you could split their special equipment; in order to pool your armies overall resources.

[Username17]

Bringing things to Sisters of Battle units once again: the Celestians have historically lacked purpose. Being slightly more expensive and slightly higher leadership with a modest bonus in close combat is only good if you actually intend to send the models into close combat. If instead they are armed with bolt guns and only good as line troops, you'd rather save the points. Furious Charge just isn't a thing you want to pay points for on troops with 1 attack and a two handed shooting weapon.

Now, very problematically for close combat troops of any kind is that only one bolt pistol/chainsword Sister of Battle model exists:



It's not the end of the world to covert them, but seriously what the actual fuck? There's not a lot of room for there to be squads of those. There are seriously eight Sisters models with bolters. Not even counting the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.

Raging Heroes adds a lot of "Sisters With Bolters" for you to use.


Also gives a few chainsword options, but not many.

As far as close combat units go, there are four medium armor ladies with eviscerators (heavy chainswords).


Like this.

Anyway, the purpose of a frontline unit in a shooty army is generally to get shot and die or take an assault to the face and die. The most important criteria for that is usually that they not cost very much, but other possibilities exist. The existence of Martyrdom as a thing could create a position for a unit that you put into harm's way because you were actually OK with them straight up dying. A regular bolter squad that gave you a bonus to your faith counter for dying could be a reasonable screen troop. They could also have one-time abilities, allowing them to "shoot their wad" and then have you not really care very much when they subsequently die. For example: if once per battle they could declare all their bolter and heavy bolter fire to be rending, they could trade up right away and then you could simply accept that they are going to die.

I could imagine things that a squad could do that would make you want to send them into close combat, but there aren't a lot of models to represent such. Like, you could have a squad where everyone gets a power weapon. There are mysteriously a lot of Sisters models with power swords. Or those ladies with heavy chainswords. But even then, it's hard to imagine a low strength, low initiative squad killing their points worth in an assault, even if they were equipped for it. I think looking at the Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions is a good idea. They need some kind of special stuff going on if they are going to kill their points worth in an assault.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Bringing things to Sisters of Battle units once again: the Celestians have historically lacked purpose.

I could honestly be convinced not to include them at all. I figured they'd be an Elite unit that gets Hatred (everyone), and they all get Shield of Faith so they all have a 6++. They'd all have a BP and a Bolter with Sarissa (so now they re-roll failed Wounds when they charge you and when you charge them), any can swap for a second BP or a Combi-Weapon, and up to four can take any Special or Melee weapon.

So reasonable customisation. Along with "If the unit's Faith Rating is 7 or more, they also have one of the following for the turn: Strikedown on shooting, Rage, Furious Charge".

While still basically being human statlines.

But we're also looking at the following also existing in the Elite slots: Melta Guns Everywhere, Volkites Everywhere, Eviscerators Everywhere, Snipers Everywhere.

As far as close combat units go, there are four medium armor ladies with eviscerators (heavy chainswords).

Technically no. A Heavy Chainsword is a Two-Handed CCW that gives +2 S. An Eviscerator is an Unwieldy Two-Handed CCW that doubles your Strength, is AP 1 or 2, and has Armourbane. Despite being what you might describe as a chainsword that is heavy. Also they don't get an Armour Save at all.

The only use of Repentia would be to slam them into tanks and transform the tanks through complex alchemy into shrapnel. Now that's quite an acceptable role, and fits the fluff of them trying to charge to their own deaths, so you can see why they don't wear armour and only fight in close combat and get shot at on the way and blow vehicles up when they're close enough to get mangled in the explosion.

So there's definitely a purpose, though that purpose is somewhat diminished when your army contains a number of melta guns.



Oh, right.

I kind of want to keep Repentia because they're really entrenched in the lore, even if there are other people who do their job at a distance (and at a higher strength).

Anyway, the purpose of a frontline unit in a shooty army is generally to get shot and die or take an assault to the face and die.

Yeah, that's basically what the Schola Progenium Initiates are for. You throw them forward and they try to run into close combat, and then they get chewed up, slowing things down for everyone else to get into position and build their Faith Rating up. Or hell, you take thirty of them in a blob and the enemy superkillerman with his what, six attacks per turn, has to sit there just grinding them down instead of doing anything useful. At seven points per model, they're fine for that.

A regular bolter squad that gave you a bonus to your faith counter for dying could be a reasonable screen troop. They could also have one-time abilities, allowing them to "shoot their wad" and then have you not really care very much when they subsequently die.

That's also a possibility. I guess that'd ensure that they're taken so people don't just spend 150 points taking 2 squads of Initiates for all their Troops. Saying "Moments before you die, you get to unleash some Rending, once" means people would seriously consider them as a thing to layer about.

Or those ladies with heavy chainswords. But even then, it's hard to imagine a low strength, low initiative squad killing their points worth in an assault, even if they were equipped for it.

Well yes. I mean, I am disappointed at your use of the phrase "killing their points worth", because you win this game by holding objectives and preventing the enemy from doing that. So what would a Repentia squad do that scraps a whole heap of enemy points or makes it harder for them to grab objectives?



Land Raiders cost over 200 points each, carry valuable-but-slow troops to important locations, have zero fire points for crew Overwatch, can't fire OW on their own, and also have some use of their own just for wandering up and shooting things with powerful guns. If four Repentia charge it and it just moved normally, that's 6 hits, of which one Glances and one Penetrates. They can cause concerns there.

Similarly, Monoliths and Lemon Ruski Squadrons (or Artillery platforms) shit themselves. Although they'll probably want to find a way to Outflank, or get a Dedicated Transport. Because they want to do it quickly.

I think looking at the Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions is a good idea. They need some kind of special stuff going on if they are going to kill their points worth in an assault.

That is true. If they're going to fight things that fight back, they need something that gives them an edge.

[Username17]

Well yes. I mean, I am disappointed at your use of the phrase "killing their points worth", because you win this game by holding objectives and preventing the enemy from doing that. So what would a Repentia squad do that scraps a whole heap of enemy points or makes it harder for them to grab objectives?

At the extreme end, yes. That is literally true. Also it even makes a difference sometimes. Back in 3rd edition when I used to kick Eldar heads in with my Crystal Tokyo Guard, one of the big things was to evaluate enemies that I could simply ignore. People would invest in a bunch of Wraithlords or put all the resilience mods on a Fire Prism or some damn thing, and I'd look at it for a while and say "Fine. I'll just leave that to do its thing, because it can't possibly dish out enough hurt to justify its cost and my guns are perfectly capable of killing your other stuff."

But in the general case, Warhammer 40K games are not really about maneuvering and very much about two armies blasting the fuck out of each other. Every unit is going to be struck with extremely heavy murder blasts, and the primary question is what it's going to do to justify its cost in the meantime.

Cheap units justify their existence by using up turns of expensive enemy firepower. Resilient units justify their existence the same way. Units that kill enemy stuff justify their existence by doing that.

In 3rd edition, the Eldar could really sink a lot of points into making a few of their units very very hard to kill. Which would justify itself if their opponents obliged them by wasting all their firepower on not killing them. And were a complete waste if their opponents just ignored the issue and did other things.

I believe that the Hashmalim are going to try to justify their existence by jumping out of a Rhino, flaming the shit out of an enemy squad or two, and then assaulting an enemy tank with melta bombs. Then they will die a horrible death, because they are toughness 3 marines in the middle of the enemy army. But basically you're going to try to trade 140 points of Rhino + Flamer Sisters for one squad of enemy units and a vehicle, which almost certainly costs more than that.

-Username17