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Post by Voss »

So the sneak peek (advertising) at the best aliens happened, and...
well, fuck.

So, pros (kinda): more fuckery with morale. In this case it isn't the outright immunity other people get for their bullshit hordes, but orks count their leadership as the number of models in the squad. Now because 8th ed. says characteristics can go above 10, 30-ork mobs really have a leadership of 30. Presumably, if they take 15 casualties, they take the test on a 15, and only lose d6 more guys. So the fact that they die easy doesn't mean they evaporate instantly.

Except the orks you care about don't come in 30. burna boyz, nobs, bikers, etc, etc. usually show up in numbers of 10 or less so... go fuck yourself.

Anyway. They make a big deal of the fact that orks get their 6+ save more often now. >.>
And if a painboy is nearby you get another 6+ 'ignore wounds' not-actually-an-armor-save.
And if a nob is around, models lost in a morale check don't die on a 6+.

And warbosses let you ignore morale checks in exchange for killing d3 guys himself, and his Waaagh! childish screaming lets nearby units charge after running (advancing, because that terminology obviously needed to change in a confusing way)

And all orks can apparently reroll failed charge distances.

And choppas (large, heavy chunks of metal) also attack fast enough to give extra attacks, which is apparently the default property of anything that isn't a basic knife (which... is fast)

So the awesomely improved new orks can chain together a bunch of bullshit 6+ rolls to die ever so slightly less. And want to get into close combat where they will be S3 and armor 6+ against opponents who are more than likely S4 and have armor 3+. Yay!
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Post by OgreBattle »

You can also use the LD/mob of a nearby unit so small squads of orks benefit from having a big blob nearby
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Post by Voss »

Ah. That actually makes it worse.


=======
Anyway, the 'core rules' are now running around in the wild:

http://imgur.com/a/hYQup

Lots of weird, weird shit.

There aren't any limitations on charging after shooting people. No, not even with heavy weapons. Or, indeed, charging different people after shooting.

Assault weapons have one function: can shoot after running advancing (stupid nomenclature change), but at -1. Or -nothing (or possibly divide by cheese errror), if you're packing flamers.

Shooting while embarked is apparently not a thing. Indeed, units effectively don't exist while embarked, and can do nothing and can't be affected by anything (unless special snowflaked). This run headlong into some special snowflake rules bullshit, because shooting people with pistols while driving around was a thing mentioned in one of the previews (dark eldar?)

But the big thing is the attack resolution page is a mess. It briefly mentions rolling multiple attacks together, but batch rolling falls apart at step 3, where you allocate damage* to a specific model, once you have successfully hit and successfully wounded, but before you've taken any kind of save. Which, well. You can common sense your way through it, but nothing in the wording really prevents the owning player from allocating all wounds and making all saving throws on a single model and disregarding any excess wounds as lost with no effect. Obviously you shouldn't, but the rules aren't actually written that way. It really needs a clear section of batch rolling.

And attacking multi-wound models is even weirder, except under perfect circumstances. When the unit is undamaged, you could theoretically split 5 incoming wounds among 5 completely uninjured models. Say three don't save, since incoming wounds are specifically allocated to a model, they shouldn't transfer, and you end up with 3 wounded models. (or batch rolling multiple attacks is a thing that just shouldn't happen, despite what the opening paragraph says) If they're shot again by someone else, you now have to allocate any wounds to 'that model,' which is actually any of several wounded models.


*they also use 'the wound' and 'the damage' interchangeably, and as game terms they aren't the same thing. Damage is part of a weapon's characteristics, and applied against a model's wound characteristic.


Seriously this is their 8th attempt (17th if you include fantasy editions) at writing functionally the same shit. It shouldn't be this bad.


Unsurprisingly, psychic spam totally is a thing, and if show up with zero or few psykers, well, go fuck yourself, you can't stop it.


The datasheets are my personal bugbear. They're missing important information, and aren't even clear about the information they provide. With ranged weapons, you fire all of them.** With melee weapons, you... don't do that. You pick what you swing each time you swing. No bonuses for multiple weapons, and I'm not really clear what happens if you have a chainsword (which special snowflakes you an additional attack) and a power sword. I guess you you take X power sword attacks and Y+1 chainsword attacks, where X+Y=your attacks characteristics. But it works exactly the opposite way ranged weapons work, but they're all listed together on the data sheet, and 'resolving melee attacks' points you to the 'resolving shooting attacks' page, except use your WS.


** except grenades, which are limited to 1 per unit, and that model can't shoot anything else, and pistols which are for whatever reason an either/or proposition. You can totally double fist assault versions of heavy weapons (see the nu-marines jump troops), but you can't fire a gun and a pistol because reasons. But you can fire multiple pistols if you have them.


By far the biggest problem with this ruleset is the second paragraph:
"The rules and characteristic for all models, and some terrain features, are presented on datasheets, which you will need in order to use the models in battle"

or, as I translate it: 'Good luck finding shit in a several hundred pages of exception based design, bitches!' The first five volumes of which soon to be sold separately at $25 a piece.*** Note: does not include terrain and anything we want to squeeze out of our asses on a whim.

***and later redone individually for probably a higher price point for less content (each army individually), but with the latest power creep toys so you have to fucking buy 'em.
Last edited by Voss on Sat May 27, 2017 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by maglag »

"The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time".

It indeed mentions that you can roll on batches previously "in some cases", but fails to provide rules for that and expects players to roll one at a time, which is slowass and still a fail of writing.
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Post by Username17 »

I was annoyed that heavy weapons had a RoF roll step, a to-hit step, a to-wound step, an armor save step, and a number of wounds step, which is 5 sequential rollings of the dice for a single attack and obviously way too many. Having them seemingly want you to "go back to step 2" for each shot past the first rather than simply roll a number of dice for steps two through five is completely fucking insane.

This is a new edition, they are supposed to be figuring out ways to make the game smoother and more streamlined. This is the opposite of that.

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Post by maglag »

Remember how the point costs come in separate?

Turns out that they give you the point costs for basic dudes, then the points for the weapons, then you need to add them up. Including the dudes that are always stuck with the same weapons.

Less smooth and stremlined indeed.
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Post by Username17 »

maglag wrote:Remember how the point costs come in separate?

Turns out that they give you the point costs for basic dudes, then the points for the weapons, then you need to add them up. Including the dudes that are always stuck with the same weapons.

Less smooth and stremlined indeed.
One of the major insights of 3rd edition was that weapons didn't have a constant value even in the same army. To give an obvious example, a flamer has the property where it always hits, so it's a bigger relative upgrade the lower a model's BS is. And it's really short range, so it's extremely useless in a squad that isn't going to move and is very effective in a squad that is going to deep strike or fast move.

Going back to the old days where Lascannons and Bolters had a constant cost is a step backwards. It's more of a pain in the ass obviously, but it's also less balanced.

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Post by rasmuswagner »

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Post by maglag »

On the fluff front, the Blood Angels rallied their sucessor chapters against the nids. Only to lose 5 chapter mastahs.

When suddenly warp storm engulfed most of the nid fleet in space.

Then Rowboat and his ultra-ULTRA primaris neo marines arrive to save the day!

Oh, and when the warp storm subdued there was a crapload of nid skulls neatly piled on 8 patterns.

So yeah, the BA just got saved by Khorne daemonkind and ultrasmurfs.
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Post by Koumei »

We argue a lot, but I think we can agree that it's weird how when it comes to Tyranids, everyone suddenly teams up and becomes best buddies (Space Marines, Really Crazy Space Marines of Blood for the Blood God Emperor who are Loyal it's Fine, Really Crazy Space Marines of Blood for the Blood God who are Chaos, it's not Fine, Undead Space Robots).

Also, I was not expecting the special Assault Pistols of the New Jump Marines to be half-range Heavy Bolters. That's pretty crazy, and also I can't help but imagine the recoil would launch them backwards when they're hovering. On ground troops, sure, they can plant their feet and go "My armour weighs more than your tank, including the crew and their gear, yes, even Guardsman Steve there who is carrying his collection of lead minis with him". But when hovering in the air by jet backs, I can just see them drifting backwards with the whole Equal and Opposite Reaction thing taking effect thanks to the lack of friction.
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Post by Stahlseele »

I never quite got that.
Bolters are decpited as something like a semi/automatic RPG launcher, because the bolts are all said to be rocket propelled mini grenades.
That should not create that much recoil to begin with. Yet in all descriptions of one being fired there is just endless talk about impossible to contain recoil.
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Post by maglag »

Bolters also have shell casings which makes just as much sense as the super recoil.

Don't think too much about it, just like chainsword mechanics and why do you need power fists when normal power weapons are already supposed to cut through everything.

Koumei wrote:We argue a lot, but I think we can agree that it's weird how when it comes to Tyranids, everyone suddenly teams up and becomes best buddies (Space Marines, Really Crazy Space Marines of Blood for the Blood God Emperor who are Loyal it's Fine, Really Crazy Space Marines of Blood for the Blood God who are Chaos, it's not Fine, Undead Space Robots).
Now I want a series of novels/fluff where Nids team up with the other factions against others.
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Post by Koumei »

I think either the designers couldn't imagine a big gun that didn't have recoil, or at some point it was just decided to make them two-stage ammunition (is that the right term?), where you fire the bolt like a regular bullet, with the hammer hitting a primer and some kind of tiny explosion forcing it out, and then mid-flight the rocket activates. Possibly to help accurately direct them at the target before accelerating or something. What do I know about guns though, I'm not American.

That would also explain the empty casings they apparently eject, which you presumably wouldn't need otherwise?
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Post by DSMatticus »

The tyranids have their shit together, which makes them the one true foe in a universe where the ultimate moral good is having no idea what the fuck you're doing and accomplishing nothing.
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Post by Username17 »

DSMatticus wrote:The tyranids have their shit together, which makes them the one true foe in a universe where the ultimate moral good is having no idea what the fuck you're doing and accomplishing nothing.
The Tyranids make less sense than the other factions, because their supposed motivation is the accumulation of biomass. But they could get a hundred trillion times as much biomass by just filling a singly Dyson Sphere up with hydroponics than they could by conquering and eating all million Imperial worlds.

Alone among the factions in Warhammer 40K, the Tyranids have no internally consistent motivation to fight the other factions. Chaos and Dark Eldar collect souls, and need to fight the other people to get them. Orks thrive on conflict and cannot attain their ascendence without testing their might against alien forces. The Imperium are xenophobic dicks and have a religious duty to wipe out the other races. But the Tyranids just want hydrocarbons, and they could many orders of magnitude more of them by setting up shop around any of the hundred billion unoccupied star systems and just fucking farming.

Back when the Genestealers were a separate faction and not part of the Tyranids, they had a coherent motivation to make Genestealer cults and shit. They spread by normal breeding, so they raped and infiltrated and intermarried across the galaxy. Sure, fine. But now that they have been retconned into being part of the Tyranid Hive, that no longer makes sense. They could just grow trees and have their Hive Tyrants make Bulbasaurs and shit.

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Post by Chamomile »

I like the fan-theory that Tyranids are anti-Warp artillery launched by the inhabitants of another galaxy to stop Chaos from getting out of control and becoming their problem.
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Post by Voss »

That's an amazingly stupid theory. Far more likely, the various fears, negative emotions and death energies of everyone the tyranids eat will congeal around the tyranid's obscenely strong warp presence and turn it into another chaos god. Until the necron retcon, the most prevalent theory was the 4th surviving c'tan lead the tyranids to this galaxy (for reasons).


And by the new fluff, tyranids as an anti-chaos weapon is an amazingly ineffective strategem. Because, well... Hive Fleet Leviathan (the one threatening the Blood Angels) is now... gone. A warpstorm blew in as the Hive Fleet was winning, and all that was left of the hive fleet were mountains of skulls with the rune of Kowabunga, the great daemon prince of whatever that didn't like Sanguinius (and by extension, the BA) back during the Heresy.

After the warp storm and however many daemons and berserkers wiped the hive fleet out instantaneously, Roboute showed up with the Crusade and a bunch of nu-marines and saved the surviving Blood Angels (and their successor chapters) from the tyranids that had landed on the surface of Baal. So the big campaign and battle between the BA and all their successors (Except the Lamenters, but including the traitorous, heretical Knights of Blood) that built up over two campaign books ended in a double Deus ex Machina. The end.


And sadly, that isn't as bad as it could have been. People were actually predicting a resurrection of the most canonically dead* Primarch, Sanguinius, bursting forth from their blood or the goofy Sanguinor special character that appeared a codex or two back.


*probably. Ferrus was actually beheaded and dismembered, so he's also pretty damn well dead and better not wander back.
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Post by Chamomile »

Wiping out an entire planet is already a thing that 'nids have done, it is the most amount of fear they are ever going to cause, and it didn't cause the birth of a Chaos God. Greater amounts of fear can't congeal around the 'nids because you need to be alive to be afraid and the 'nids are extremely thorough about not leaving survivors. The number of people feeling fear (or anything else) goes down, not up, as the 'nids approach victory.

The theory is certainly less compelling now that it's turned out that the only reason daemons were unable to manifest anywhere near a hive fleet is because apparently they just weren't trying their hardest (a development that is both recent and stupid), but it's not any less plausible unless you think the Somme is a myth because it turned out to be a bad idea.
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Post by DSMatticus »

FrankTrollman wrote: The Tyranids make less sense than the other factions, because their supposed motivation is the accumulation of biomass. But they could get a hundred trillion times as much biomass by just filling a singly Dyson Sphere up with hydroponics than they could by conquering and eating all million Imperial worlds.
I think giving tyranids a conscious goal and the ability to reason about how best to achieve that goal is simply too much personification. They are best imagined as what happens when you take the sorts of impulses that create violent eusocial creatures (say, army ants) and inject them with enough intelligence and creativity to build an interstellar empire out of those impulses.

Tyranids don't want biomass. They want to eat. That eating isn't the best way to acquire biomass doesn't occur to them, because that's not a question they've ever asked themselves, and if you somehow told them this, they wouldn't care. They are ants following a chemical script. The script does not mention farming, but you know what it does mention? Killing and eating you, and thinking up ways to kill and eat things that fight back.
Voss wrote:That's an amazingly stupid theory. Far more likely, the various fears, negative emotions and death energies of everyone the tyranids eat will congeal around the tyranid's obscenely strong warp presence and turn it into another chaos god. Until the necron retcon, the most prevalent theory was the 4th surviving c'tan lead the tyranids to this galaxy (for reasons).
In the older canon, a strong tyranid presence distorted or cut off the warp. It was never really fully explored what that meant beyond "blocks travel, blocks communication, fucks with psykers," but the implication that they were essentially self-manufacturing warp insulation goes pretty interesting places. Not to mention their particular form of FTL is based around harnessing the target system's gravity to "pull" themselves towards it, which presumably makes it very useful for travelling intergalactic distances (since galactic centers have tons of gravity). So the idea is that a warp sensitive race in a nearby galaxy engineered and fired the tyranids at the Milky Way in order to prevent and isolate events like the Fall of the Eldar, which hurl out massive cataclysmic warp storms. Since we're talking about it, it even explains why they "hunt" instead of farm; they'd be designed that way so that they stop spreading once they're out of living creatures whose warp presence they need to isolate.

I don't think that's what the authors originally intended; it's a fan interpretation based on various bits of tyranid fluff that makes them a fuckton more interesting that wasn't explicitly contradicted by any authoritative sources. Obviously, having a warp storm eat a tyranid hive fleet because "lolfuckyou" is a pretty explicit contradiction of that theory. But the new fluff is fucking stupid and I don't really care. They made necrons dumber, for crying out loud. If you had told me necrons could get dumber, I would have called you a fucking liar.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Koumei wrote:I think either the designers couldn't imagine a big gun that didn't have recoil, or at some point it was just decided to make them two-stage ammunition (is that the right term?), where you fire the bolt like a regular bullet, with the hammer hitting a primer and some kind of tiny explosion forcing it out, and then mid-flight the rocket activates. Possibly to help accurately direct them at the target before accelerating or something. What do I know about guns though, I'm not American.

That would also explain the empty casings they apparently eject, which you presumably wouldn't need otherwise?
I'd guess it was people writing fluff that hadn't read all the existing fluff. Lots of contradictory fluff.

OTOH, I had a discussion with a staff member once, and according to him there was fluff supporting the idea that not all bolter work the same, that (for example) the Space Wolves had decided to adopt munitions that weren't rocket-propelled and might not have been caseless. Which sorta makes sense, the SW like doing their own thing, and if they decide a different weapon would suit their needs better, they could use them. As to still calling them bolters, though, annoying, but better than giving them slightly different rules for basic weapons.
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Post by Voss »

Chamomile wrote:Wiping out an entire planet is already a thing that 'nids have done, it is the most amount of fear they are ever going to cause.
Only if you believe that no one ever hears about Tyranid attacks (including the people who flee from them), and no ever talks to each other. As they eat more of the galaxy (and pre this edition, they were pretty much the unstoppable doom of the galaxy), that fear and chaos spreads.

It isn't plausible, because the canonically slow pace of tyranid travel means they would have been sent preemptively from another galaxy before the chaos gods even existed, so to solve a problem that mythical (and nonexistent, since the in-game premise is that the tyranids ate their home galaxy) beings had no way of knowing about. That it's also a bad fanwank idea is a shit-flavored cherry on top.
DSM wrote:It was never really fully explored what that meant beyond "blocks travel, blocks communication, fucks with psykers," but the implication that they were essentially self-manufacturing warp insulation goes pretty interesting places.
No it doesn't. It was created for narrative purposes- that astropaths can't get warnings out through the 'shadow in the warp.' It became magical immunity for the sake of not having to write tyranid-warp interactions.
That they still took perils of the warp tests but they were handwaved as 'popping blood vessels and the manifesting creature dies or something' wasn't compelling at all.
Not to mention their particular form of FTL is based around harnessing the target system's gravity to "pull" themselves towards it, which presumably makes it very useful for travelling intergalactic distances (since galactic centers have tons of gravity).
Ah, yes, the stupid cruddace-written codex and its insane but suddenly canon theories about interstellar travel by gravity whales.

Why they hunt is already explained- they want different types of DNA to form different types of creatures, to more effectively kill more creatures. But the root is still just 'Kill Moah! But not in a blood-for-the-blood-god way'
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Post by Chamomile »

Voss wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Wiping out an entire planet is already a thing that 'nids have done, it is the most amount of fear they are ever going to cause.
Only if you believe that no one ever hears about Tyranid attacks (including the people who flee from them), and no ever talks to each other.
Tiny handfuls of survivors informing other small handfuls of people who are allowed to know what happens on other planets isn't even a blip on the radar compared to the constant background terror and anguish caused by the Imperium in the first place. If it takes over 10,000 years of the Imperium doing what they're doing to make a Chaos God (if they're even headed in that direction at all), the 'nids stand no chance of triggering the same thing with a relatively tiny uptick in panic amongst relatively tiny amounts of people.

Even if the Imperium did have news networks that actually reached more than 0.1% of the population, those news networks would already be reporting on how the 'nids are going to kill absolutely everyone because up until very recently they were primed to do just that.

Regarding travel speeds and what happened to the tyranids' home galaxy: Have you ever read two or more codices for the same faction in different editions? Do you not know how GW rolls with regards to numerical consistency or knowing how sci-fi scale even works in the first place? There is no setting Bible for 40k, there are just frequently repeated myths. It's an oral tradition. It literally does not matter what "canon" sources you pull from however many decades ago, because nobody including the authors cared or paid attention to those numbers. The 'nids cast a shadow in the Warp because people care about and remember that concept. The speed of their FTL travel is not something anyone cares about or remembers.
Ah, yes, the stupid cruddace-written codex and its insane but suddenly canon theories about interstellar travel by gravity whales.
This bit of content-free editorializing sounds like the opening to some kind of actual argument, but no, you just end the paragraph and train of thought right there. Apparently your counterargument is that you don't like gravity-directed FTL (for unspecified reasons) and consider them "insane" (also for unspecified reasons) and you expect us to care about your completely unsupported conclusion because...?
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Post by Username17 »

DSM wrote:I think giving tyranids a conscious goal and the ability to reason about how best to achieve that goal is simply too much personification.
The Hive does whatever the Hive Tyrant tells it to do. Hive Tyrants are super geniuses who have hyper advanced botany that allows them to grow radios on trees. If they can do that, why can't they grow food on trees?

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Post by Voss »

Chamomile wrote: This bit of content-free editorializing sounds like the opening to some kind of actual argument, but no, you just end the paragraph and train of thought right there. Apparently your counterargument is that you don't like gravity-directed FTL (for unspecified reasons) and consider them "insane" (also for unspecified reasons) and you expect us to care about your completely unsupported conclusion because...?
Yes, quite right. My mistake for assuming any knowledge at all on your part.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

There are species of ants that farm anyway.

It makes a lot more sense for the Tyranids to be attacking the other species for the sake of eliminating competition and the biomass is just a bonus. Sure, you can grow all the food you want on trees, but when the humans have a standing order of "kill all xenos", the craftworld eldar are assholes who'd trade your whole species to save 1 dude, the dark eldar will torture you to death for fun...might as well hit those assholes first so you can raise baby Hive Tyrants in peace.
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