Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help

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Post by maglag »

AoS has a "rule of one" that you can only cast each power 1 per army per turn. I suppose there will be something similar in 8th edition. There also were anti-spam rules in 40k 7th edition already in place.
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Post by Koumei »

You apparently get to choose your powers (and Warlord traits).

I like how they got rid of Strength D things... in the sense that you won't find anything that literally states "Strength: D", but there are weapons that automatically Wound and ignore all saving throws. 7Ed's Strength D is suddenly seeming a lot kinder now, isn't it?
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Post by maglag »

I prefer this less swingy version. Now you know better what to expect instead of feeling like throwing up the table when your opponent rolls that 6 with Strength D weapons (or when you roll a 1 with your own Strength D weapon). Fewer random rolls is good.

Plus hey, blasts are still gone. No more lulzy scattering of Strength D explosions either.
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Post by Koumei »

It's less random, yes, and it's still not quite as powerful (infantry-wise) as D weapons were in 5th where they also caused Instant Death. In this case it's just a specified number of Wounds (or a rolled number). But I felt it was worth noting that already one of their big promises has been a technicality.
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Post by maglag »

It had already happened when they announced that each army gets their own list of powers. Rumor is that that each faction will also have unique warlord trait tables and artifacts for their leaders to pick too. All of which goes a bit out of the way of their promise of "only need core rules and each unit's own stat block".

Still it looks like good for gameplay all in all. You were complaining that now bolters are the standard anti-tank/titan weapon, but attacks that deal a few mortal wounds sounds like they will be quite more effective for dealing with high T/armor targets.
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Post by Koumei »

That much is true - let's just see how common Mortal Wounds are. "Strength: Go Fuck Yourself" has traditionally been the best way to deal with hard targets and I'm okay with that, because last I checked, nuclear warheads are better at wrecking big things than handguns.
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Post by Voss »

Koumei wrote:That much is true - let's just see how common Mortal Wounds are. "Strength: Go Fuck Yourself" has traditionally been the best way to deal with hard targets and I'm okay with that, because last I checked, nuclear warheads are better at wrecking big things than handguns.
Sure. But the only example so far isn't a nuke. Its baby's first Psi-manifestation. A power that has generally been S4 or so.
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Post by Koumei »

I just mean that there should indeed be something that equates to "Strength: go fuck yourself", that is specifically designed for splitting hard targets in half instead of just machine gunning them.

The bit where every psyker just has that (apparently) kind of worries me from the perspective of armies that don't have psykers. I mean, there are four such armies (five if you include Khorne Daemonkin), this isn't a really weird thing where you're going out of your way to not include HQ psykers.
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Post by maglag »

Speaking of which if you check the new site there is no mention of Khorne daemonkin although there is a focus on Deathguard.

GW Also said ALL armies are getting power tables. Thus it may just be possible everybody gets psykers now.

Tau have kroot being sensible to the warp already in some bits of fluff. With chaos spreading accross the galaxy more and more kroot may start to awaken.

Dark eldar are getting all comfy with crawftworld eldar and space elves have their new god Thus may finally start using witchery too.

Sisters of battle get new powers as the emprah returns to life. Or celestine makes some babies with the super psyker inquisitor girl.

Necrons see shit is getting real and bring out ancient tech that is so advanced the other races see it as magic too.
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Post by maglag »

Moar dakka!

-You can shoot pistols inside a melee. So retro. Also somebody in GW really likes Cypher. Ork troops are a somewhat sad with their lack of acuraccy but on the other hand they don't need to worry about crappy Initiative anymore so I guess it averages out.
-You can now fire heavy weapons after moving with just a -1 penalty on your to-hit roll. Affects vehicles too.
-Cover now adds to armor saves. So can be ignored by penetration. Certain types of terrain only grant cover to certain types of units, like a crater grants +1 to infantry armor only. So normal spech merines turn into termies. And I guess termies become fully invulnerable to bolters while in cover.
-Cover-ignoring weapons like noise guns ignore, well, the cover bonus.
-There is now a charge phase, details on the next article.

So looks like infantry with big guns will be a lot more mobile, and giving melee sergeants a pimped pistol should be a much better investment than before. Also you will really want to get some cover bonus all the time.

Plus it seems like line of sight no longer plays a role in determining cover. Your infantry sitting on a crater? They get +1 armor, have a nice day.
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Post by Username17 »

maglag wrote:You can now fire heavy weapons after moving with just a -1 penalty on your to-hit roll.
One of the best things 3rd edition did was get rid of die roll modifiers. Like, if your BS was 2 you always hit on a 5+. Things that affected accuracy did so by giving rerolls or saves. It made the game much much faster.

Who the fuckity fuck actually said "My problem with WH40K is that there aren't situational events in the past to remember when figuring out what the to-hit target number is going to be for my weapons." Fucking anybody?

I understand that it makes BS more than just a force multiplier, since the proportional hit to effectiveness of a -1 to-hit is larger the lower your BS is. But who actually goes "Thank goodness it's the Aspect Warriors! They only suffer a 25% instead of 33% offensive output reduction when they fire their artillery on the move!" Fuck that shit.

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Post by maglag »

FrankTrollman wrote:
maglag wrote:You can now fire heavy weapons after moving with just a -1 penalty on your to-hit roll.
One of the best things 3rd edition did was get rid of die roll modifiers. Like, if your BS was 2 you always hit on a 5+. Things that affected accuracy did so by giving rerolls or saves. It made the game much much faster.
Between 3rd and 7th there were still plenty of die roll modifiers around. Like vehicle armor penetration. Old cover stacking. Mark of Tzeenceth. Then the daeomon grimoire for 2+ Inv deathstars. Reserve manipulation. Warpstorm table with the incursion formation.

And leadership always had a bunch of modifiers and then special rules that changed those modifiers (or ignored them outright or replaced them with other systems).

Sometime in between blast weapons scatter started to subtract your BS too.

7th edition also had a bunch of Signum items that could increase your acuraccy. Sure, they technically improved your BS, but BS no longer is its own stat, you've got a flat X+ to hit in ranged in 8th.


And it's not like any 40K player ever had trouble remembering that Charging grants you +1A for the last editions (again variable depending on special cases like disorganized charges or special rules like Rampage).
Last edited by maglag on Mon May 01, 2017 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

So the new video from the perspective of Rowboat Gullyman tells us something that was probably to be expected by the summary of all Imperial forces having one book: upon awakening, he's not shitty that the Imperium has become corrupt (it obviously has), depraved (it obviously has) and at odds with its own survival (it obviously has), declaring a split from it.

No, he's shitty that the Imperium hasn't been winning (a fair summation, given the Gathering Storm and the fact that new enemies have been discovered since his last nap, with not a single old enemy being genocided in the meantime), so he's going to help them win. This is presumably where we get the "New Taller Space Marines".
Between 3rd and 7th there were still plenty of die roll modifiers around. Like vehicle armor penetration. Old cover stacking. Mark of Tzeenceth. Then the daeomon grimoire for 2+ Inv deathstars. Reserve manipulation. Warpstorm table with the incursion formation.
The majority of those are terrible. So getting rid of one of them was a good move, and bringing it back is a bad move.
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Post by maglag »

Koumei wrote:So the new video from the perspective of Rowboat Gullyman tells us something that was probably to be expected by the summary of all Imperial forces having one book: upon awakening, he's not shitty that the Imperium has become corrupt (it obviously has), depraved (it obviously has) and at odds with its own survival (it obviously has), declaring a split from it.
Well, of course, since the Imperium already was all of that before half the primarchs decided to start a civil war.
-No elections, the emprah is supreme commander for life and you can either give him blowjobs or get purged. Or give him the greatest blowjob and get purged anyway (cough Thunder Warriors cough).
-Said emprah is also known for ordering the nuking of cities that already proved their loyalty to him just to send a message to his minions.
-Angron butchering first and not asking questions at all, Mortarion turning the planets they're supposed to liberate into toxic wastelands, Perturbaro killing 10% of his own legion just because they weren't #1, Fulgrim taking orders from a talking sword, Konrad trying to rule by fear (and failing so he just blows up his home planet and calls it a night), Lemon Russ being, well, Lemon Russ, Sanguinus being extra-mutant with too many limbs that spread thoughts of heresy and the whole thirst for blood thing, every last dude from the Alpha Legion, the list goes on and on.

The Horus Heresy didn't make the imperium corrupt/depraved/self-destructing, the Horus Heresy happens because the imperium was already corrupt/depraved/self-destructive.
Koumei wrote: No, he's shitty that the Imperium hasn't been winning (a fair summation, given the Gathering Storm and the fact that new enemies have been discovered since his last nap, with not a single old enemy being genocided in the meantime), so he's going to help them win. This is presumably where we get the "New Taller Space Marines".
So Rowboat is actually a master biologist that can brew better mutant soldiers than the emprah himself and he was just holding his genius back during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy? Makes sense (by 40k standards).



Koumei wrote:
Between 3rd and 7th there were still plenty of die roll modifiers around. Like vehicle armor penetration. Old cover stacking. Mark of Tzeenceth. Then the daeomon grimoire for 2+ Inv deathstars. Reserve manipulation. Warpstorm table with the incursion formation.
The majority of those are terrible. So getting rid of one of them was a good move, and bringing it back is a bad move.
We at least least got rid of vehicle armor penetration calculations so I consider that a net plus.
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Post by maglag »

Drive me closer I want to hit them with my sword.

-Charge move still 2d6, overwatch still only natural 6s.
-Good news for melee is that you only need to end up whitin 1 inch to start smacking stuff up.
-Bad news for melee is that charged units get to fire overwatch multiple times per turn as long as not actually engaged. Although it's not that often you get two units in charging range and then one of them fails the charge move.
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Post by Voss »

That 1" is nebulous enough that it makes me wonder if models farther back can't fight, though happily Overwatch seems to happen a unit basis not model basis.

Notably charging is its own phase now for... reasons, and the Fight phase is a separate thing.
It's worth noting that faster units (7 or 8 inch move) can come win spitting distance of engaging from the limit of basic ranged weapons. 8+12+1. Not likely but still pretty nuts, especially given GW's fetish for rerolls or special abilities that just give static values sometimes in place of rolls.

The way cover works is good against shooting, but holding cover means someone is going to run up on you pretty damn quick. Cue Howling Banshees and their wacky special rules. Fast and the scream could well be 'fuck your cover, always murder you first' again
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Post by maglag »

Voss wrote: The way cover works is good against shooting, but holding cover means someone is going to run up on you pretty damn quick. Cue Howling Banshees and their wacky special rules. Fast and the scream could well be 'fuck your cover, always murder you first' again
Charging units always strike first in 8th edition, there is no Initiative stat anymore and there is no mention of cover making you strike last. I would guess the bashee masks will now deny overwatch or something.

Which begs the question if there will be assault grenades anymore or they're gonna get some new rules.
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Post by Voss »

maglag wrote:
Voss wrote: The way cover works is good against shooting, but holding cover means someone is going to run up on you pretty damn quick. Cue Howling Banshees and their wacky special rules. Fast and the scream could well be 'fuck your cover, always murder you first' again
Charging units always strike first in 8th edition, there is no Initiative stat anymore and there is no mention of cover making you strike last. I would guess the bashee masks will now deny overwatch or something.

Which begs the question if there will be assault grenades anymore or they're gonna get some new rules.
I'm going with the functional theory that they're doing general overviews and not getting into details. Otherwise this system straight up won't work.
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Post by maglag »

First rule about the fight phase is we don't talk about the fight phase.

Crunchy details:
-You get a free 3 move at the start of the fight phase. This can pull other units in melee and does not trigger overwatch, but does not count as a charge.
-Hitting in close combat on a 2+ seems to be reserved for named melee heroes like Rowboat, Swarmlord and Ghazghkull Thraka.
-After chargers do their chopping, players take turns rolling for stabbing for any other units in melee 1 by 1.
-Stuff like Tyranids with lash whips and Slaaneshi Daemons can ignore this sequence.
-First mention of stratagems if you're battleforged, also allowing to change the sequence.


Voss wrote: I'm going with the functional theory that they're doing general overviews and not getting into details. Otherwise this system straight up won't work.
40K 8th edition wrote:"We’ve already seen in our article on unit profiles that Initiative has gone. Instead, the priority for striking is based on the previous phase, with those units that completed a charge swinging first.

There’s a definite emphasis on making charging into combat effective – these units have gotten all the way across the battlefield, they’ve braved enemy fire and overwatch, and now they’ve finally made it into combat – they will at the very least get to swing."
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Post by Voss »

Hurrah for copypasta? Still doesn't say anything about what banshee masks or assault grenades actually do. So, again, details.

Yes, the next day's article addressed the most basic aspect of my question. But your ability to blindly copy preview material isn't exactly an insight into mechanics.
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Post by Username17 »

I think the bottom line is that they've learned nothing from the failure of Age of Sigmar.

On the one hand, WH40K of all editions has been a clunky mess. 3rd edition was the fastest, most streamlined edition and everything before or after that was worse - with more clunkiness and epicycles to track with no overall benefit for doing so. Similrly, the balance of the game has uniformly been terrible, with the costs in points or dollars of various units being fairly unrelated to their effectiveness on the battlefield.

But what we have is a system where the best version of the ruleset came out in 1998 and was barely acceptable for the time. It's almost twenty years later, and they can't convincingly say that their next version of the rules is going to be better than that. That's awful.

On the other hand: people don't like it when you shit all over the fluff and tell people they can't play their armies anymore. That kind of Age of Sigmar style radical change of the storyline is not something people accept easily. And yet, here we are. That too is awful.

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Post by maglag »

Reserving full rules judgement until we get all the pieces of the puzzle. Rumors is that the edition is gonna be released in early June, which kinda makes sense when you consider they're doing small preview every day and they can't keep that going for much longer than a month.
FrankTrollman wrote: On the other hand: people don't like it when you shit all over the fluff and tell people they can't play their armies anymore. That kind of Age of Sigmar style radical change of the storyline is not something people accept easily. And yet, here we are. That too is awful.

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If nothing else they did learn that lesson. All of the 40k factions are staying where they are. Even the 30K factions will get their rules updated.

Sure Cadia exploded, but in the grimdarkness of the future, that's just another Tuesday for the Imperium. Plenty more of Imperial Guard where that came from, plenty of Cadian troops managed to run to fight another day if that was your specific paint scheme, and Creed himself is waiting in a pokeball to be released again. They aren't pulling a "kill them all!" storyline like in AoS.

If anything, they're bringing gone characters back. Magnus and Rowboat already there, Mortarion is pretty much confirmed to return to action, and we may as well start taking bets which loyalist scum primarch gets better next.
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Post by Voss »

Eh. You're being too optimistic. That blurb kind of trails off with 'people on this side of the line are fine, but everyone over there is right fucked.' ("Far worse")

Looking at the map, things over the line? Attilans, a guard regiment that has been erased, two more guard regiments that are metal only and incomplete (Valhallans, Mordians) and... Blood Angels.

That should make at least a few people nervous about what sort of fluff atrocities and army changes will come around when they get 'updates'
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Post by maglag »

There are still 200 remaining Cadian regiments, and some of them will stay and fight over what remains of the Cadian sector. So if your army fluff was "Brave cadians on the area defending against chaos", you can still do it. And if those guys are still in fighting shape, yes I'm optimistic the ones cut off by the rift are still perfectly playable.

Now rules for the rules gods!

Morale is now roll 1d6+number of casualities you suffered on the turn and if above your leadership, you lose the difference in models. That explains spech merines only having LD 7 now as the RNG is halved. No falling back, no regrouping, which I guess simplifies things, but low-number multi-wound units are in for a bad day. Promises to keep down the number of units that don't care about Morale rules. I'll believe that one when I see it. In particular single-model units cannot take casualities without being wiped out and thus never take morale checks. Big blobs should be pretty happy however as you now need to kill every last one to wipe them out.

Battle Forged replaces formations. They're not based on specific units but instead like the old Force Organization Charts, like 2-3 HQ, 3-6 troops, 0-6 elites, 0-3 fast attack, 0-3 heavy support, 0-2 flyers (their own category now), and grant you a bonus, usually extra command points which supposedly can be used to activate one-shot abilities during battle. So no more needing to buy that specific unit to get that cheesy formation's bonus. Promises that most detachments demand your units to be from the same faction, which means not all of them. Personal prediction that the multi-army detachments will be the most used.

Big units no longer have any special rules besides the "gets weaker as they lose wounds". G/Morkanaut example, starts at 18 wounds with 8 move and 4 attacks at 3+ to hit but when close to death will be 4 move with 2 attacks at 5+, just as planned. Never loses dakka though. Also the bigger nid bugs will have 12+ wounds while Knights will have 20+ wounds, hope you have some d100s handy.

The new morale and "big units has llots of wounds" stuff means that overall units will no longer be fully wiped out just because of a couple of bad rolls, which makes the game less swingy.

Also promises to buff Chaos Marines armored dudes like Havoks, Berzekers and Abbys. I'm optimistic about this too because they couldn't possibly get worst. Even if GW screws it up what's the worst that can happen? They're gonna sit on the shelves harder? Only way left to go for those models is up. In particular Abby finally will get a full-army aura! Unless it's something explicitly negative, it will be a buff. And Chainaxes will be nice things again it seems. Even something as simple as some rending would be pretty good news.
Last edited by maglag on Sun May 07, 2017 11:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

Morale- no, big blobs should be terrified of the new morale rules. If you note on the marine profile, morale is going down.. D6 + wounds vs ld 6 or 7 taken is really, really bad with lightly armored troops.

You don't have to kill every last one in any way at all. Kill somewhat more than half and the rest of unit gets up and leaves or falls over dead at the end of turn. Hilariously, this can happen even if they win combat.

Eldar in particular (with small fragile units) can slaughter enemies and if they took several casualties from Overwatch, strike backs, or other random effects, they can rolls 6 on morale and drop dead from morale after winning.


What is does do is turn target priorities, probably through the law of unintended consequences. Once you kill 7 dudes in a squad, you stop shooting at them, because the rest will likely drop dead at end of turn. Similarly, suppression or lightly damaging units is dumb. If you need to hammer a guardsman unit with a lascannon to get that 7th dead man, you do that. Because killing one terminator has much worse odds of working at all, and killing just one guy out of unit isn't enough to kill more for free with morale.
Last edited by Voss on Mon May 08, 2017 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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