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Why Eastern European games rock so much ?
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Leress
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This War of Mine pretty much follow suit: Realism, Grimdark, and just like other survival games but instead of getting around monsters it is other people.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks for the description, Longes.

You know what ? Blade, Prak and Judging Eagle are right. I was thinking the issue again and came to the conclusion that what distinguishes Eastern European games is not their prowess in "flexing the media boundaries" (while Stalker does this, its more of an exception than the norm) but in the way it deals with themes and flavour.

Does it make more sense ?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Thanks for the description, Longes.

You know what ? Blade, Prak and Judging Eagle are right. I was thinking the issue again and came to the conclusion that what distinguishes Eastern European games is not their prowess in "flexing the media boundaries" (while Stalker does this, its more of an exception than the norm) but in the way it deals with themes and flavour.

Does it make more sense ?


Since I just finished going over how all the games you listed have flavor that amounts to "REALISM" "GRIMDARK" or both, and that plenty of other games have those same flavors and do them just as well, no, it still makes no sense at all. You are still obviously completely wrong.
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Stinktopus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Why Eastern European games rock so much ? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:

The example games feature zero samurai and a non zero number of english knights. So I'm not sure that applies.


Sorry, Kaelik, I was a bit vague in my attempt at metaphor. I was merely trying to say that there is always a hipster impulse to trash whatever the dominant/mainstream culture is, while promoting foreign, "exotic" alternatives like they can do no wrong.

If The Witcher were made by Activision, silva would be calling it a bland, generic fantasy interspersed with blatant sexploitation. But, The Witcher is about a Polish badass and Polish tits, and apparently Poland is exotic now.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Why Eastern European games rock so much ? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stinktopus wrote:
Kaelik wrote:

The example games feature zero samurai and a non zero number of english knights. So I'm not sure that applies.


Sorry, Kaelik, I was a bit vague in my attempt at metaphor. I was merely trying to say that there is always a hipster impulse to trash whatever the dominant/mainstream culture is, while promoting foreign, "exotic" alternatives like they can do no wrong.

If The Witcher were made by Activision, silva would be calling it a bland, generic fantasy interspersed with blatant sexploitation. But, The Witcher is about a Polish badass and Polish tits, and apparently Poland is exotic now.


Well actually, the Witcher is an English badass who was given a polish name by a plagarist, and is sold as polish for that reason. But sure, I agree with the general principle.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Why Eastern European games rock so much ? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stinktopus wrote:
If The Witcher were made by Activision, silva would be calling it a bland, generic fantasy interspersed with blatant sexploitation. But, The Witcher is about a Polish badass and Polish tits, and apparently Poland is exotic now.

Huh.. if you read my previous posts, you will see I didnt even considered The Witcher series as I think its too on the mainstream side.

Have you played Stalker, Pathologic or Sublustrum ? I think these are more emblematic to what Im talking about here.
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Grek
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TIL silva is actually just a hipster. Suddenly everything he says makes way more sense.
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schpeelah
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Why Eastern European games rock so much ? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:


Well actually, the Witcher is an English badass who was given a polish name by a plagarist, and is sold as polish for that reason. But sure, I agree with the general principle.
Geralt is not remotely a Polish name, and the books are popular in part for being based on distinctly Slavic folklore and culture.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Why Eastern European games rock so much ? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

schpeelah wrote:
Geralt is not remotely a Polish name, and the books are popular in part for being based on distinctly Slavic folklore and culture.


I don't care if his name is polish or not. The point is that the witcher series was written by a plagiarist who stole an english character and then wrote fan-fic about him, and sold it as original work. So when someone says that Geralt is a polish badass, they are just wrong, since he is in fact an english character.

I also never claimed that the books are famous for him being english, or anything else, be as slavic pride as you like, my point was merely that the character is just a plagiarized english one with polish/slavic fan fiction written about him.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Well actually, the Witcher is an English badass who was given a polish name by a plagarist

Huh? What?

Quote:
Stalker is just Fallout, but localized, and grimdark instead of campy. Those are obviously changes, but if you are committed to praising Stalker's theme as opposed to its gameplay, you basically have to say it is because the grimdark realism of the localized post apocalypse is more thematic than campy 50s tunes and racism themes of fallout.

Kaelik, are you high? Is any game with post-apocalyptic aesthetics "just Fallout" for you? This is like arguing that Batman is just Superman, but without powers, and grimdark instead of campy.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, the "Stalker is just Fallout!" argument just proves Kaelik never played neither game. One is your trad RPG formula with NPCs that are little more than wiki-posts disguised as people who only come into existence when the player gets within 100 yards of them, and the other is an ambitious formula of emergent open-world shooter sim with survival elements and NPCs that have actual needs and wants and explore the world as independent entities.

Oh, and Longes, Perimeter was exported to the west. And to great acclaim.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Yeah, the "Stalker is just Fallout!" argument just proves Kaelik never played neither game. One is your trad RPG formula with NPCs that are little more than wiki-posts disguised as people who only come into existence when the player gets within 100 yards of them, and the other is an ambitious formula of emergent open-world shooter sim with survival elements and NPCs that have actual needs and wants and explore the world as independent entities.


Do you even know what theme is? I ask because the answer is obviously no.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If by sharing the tag "post-apocalyptic", you think both games deal with the same themes and issues, I disagree. Fallout is your typical american world-saving "chosen one" heroism. Stalker has no such thing as heroism, nor world-saving.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
If by sharing the tag "post-apocalyptic", you think both games deal with the same themes and issues, I disagree. Fallout is your typical american world-saving "chosen one" heroism. Stalker has no such thing as heroism, nor world-saving.


Fallout has all the same "War is Hell" and "The real enemy is Man's inhumanity to Man" themes wrapped in a campy exterior. Stalker has the same "You are a rough and tumble survivor who can choose to fuck the world or save it, and you being an everyman who saves the world is the point" as Fallout, but dressed in Gritty Realism.

They have the same themes, but one of them dresses it in campy 50s tunes and wackiness, and the other dresses it in gritty realism and grimdark. There are obviously differences. But when you talk about how Stalker NPCs wander and fallout ones don't (Even though there are plenty of fallout NPCs that wander, and plenty of stalker ones that don't ever move from their assigned tradepost/residence) as the reason the themes are so obviously different that I couldn't have played both games, it shows that you don't even know what themes are.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
silva wrote:
Yeah, the "Stalker is just Fallout!" argument just proves Kaelik never played neither game. One is your trad RPG formula with NPCs that are little more than wiki-posts disguised as people who only come into existence when the player gets within 100 yards of them, and the other is an ambitious formula of emergent open-world shooter sim with survival elements and NPCs that have actual needs and wants and explore the world as independent entities.


Do you even know what theme is? I ask because the answer is obviously no.


I still fail to see how Stalker is anything like Fallout. In Fallout the world has gone to shit after nuclear apocalypse and you, as a citizen of the underground Vault, must brave the desert filled with Mad Max raiders and mutated wildlife to find the water chip/stop mutant invasion. In Stalker a part of Ukraine has gone to shit after nuclear power plant blew up and you, as an amnesiac treasure hunter, must brave the wastelands of Ukraine filled with bandits and mutated wildlife to find loot to sell to the normal people and get to the center of the Zone where the biggest loot stash allegedly is. I'd imagine that the very fact that there was no nuclear apocalypse would make Stalker thematically different from Fallout.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
I still fail to see how Stalker is anything like Fallout. In Fallout the world has gone to shit after nuclear apocalypse and you, as a citizen of the underground Vault, must brave the desert filled with Mad Max raiders and mutated wildlife to find the water chip/stop mutant invasion. In Stalker a part of Ukraine has gone to shit after nuclear power plant blew up and you, as an amnesiac treasure hunter, must brave the wastelands of Ukraine filled with bandits and mutated wildlife to find loot to sell to the normal people and get to the center of the Zone where the biggest loot stash allegedly is. I'd imagine that the very fact that there was no nuclear apocalypse would make Stalker thematically different from Fallout.


So you mean that both people are scavengers in a post nuclear event who are pursuing a personal goal, and incidentally end up saving everyone by their actions. And both of them have to contend with both the mutated wild, but also the evil men who are the true enemy in a place made terrible by the horrible actions of man?

You are right, they have totally different themes because in one of them there wasn't a global apocalypse. Because everyone knows you can't have the same themes in different (or in fact, nearly the same) settings.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik is confusing theme for genre. Sometimes genre tags indeed indicate commonly shared themes and issues, but other times don't. So, while Mad Mad and, say, Tank Girl are pretty similar themes-wise, those are wildly different from The Road or Tarkovsk Stalker. Even of all of them use to have the tag "post-apocalypse" attached to them.

Or are you implying that Mad Max is identical to Tarkovski Stalker, themes-wise ?
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Longes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Longes wrote:
I still fail to see how Stalker is anything like Fallout. In Fallout the world has gone to shit after nuclear apocalypse and you, as a citizen of the underground Vault, must brave the desert filled with Mad Max raiders and mutated wildlife to find the water chip/stop mutant invasion. In Stalker a part of Ukraine has gone to shit after nuclear power plant blew up and you, as an amnesiac treasure hunter, must brave the wastelands of Ukraine filled with bandits and mutated wildlife to find loot to sell to the normal people and get to the center of the Zone where the biggest loot stash allegedly is. I'd imagine that the very fact that there was no nuclear apocalypse would make Stalker thematically different from Fallout.


So you mean that both people are scavengers in a post nuclear event who are pursuing a personal goal, and incidentally end up saving everyone by their actions. And both of them have to contend with both the mutated wild, but also the evil men who are the true enemy in a place made terrible by the horrible actions of man?

You are right, they have totally different themes because in one of them there wasn't a global apocalypse. Because everyone knows you can't have the same themes in different (or in fact, nearly the same) settings.


1. What is this "saving the world" you are talking about? In Stalker the world is not in danger at any point, and the game ends with you either joining the scientist hivemind that is trying to bring world peace, or killing them all and possibly removing the Zone (which is not threatening the world and is just sitting there).

2. "Science experiment backfires" is hardly "horrible actions of man".
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
So you mean that both people are scavengers

Nope. One is trying to save his people (Fallout), the other is in it just for the money (Stalker).

Quote:
in a post nuclear event

Nope. Stalker's Zone has nothing to do with nuclear whatsoever.

Quote:
and incidentally end up saving everyone by their actions

Nope. Stalker protagonist dont save anyone by his actions. The Zone continue to exist (and to grow) after his deeds, whatever ending you achieve.

Really, pal. Your ignorance about Stalker is showing. At least read the wikipedia article. You should feel less embarassed.

Also, answer my previous question: do you think Mad Max and Tarkovsky Stalker deal with the same themes ? Wink
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
1. What is this "saving the world" you are talking about? In Stalker the world is not in danger at any point, and the game ends with you either joining the scientist hivemind that is trying to bring world peace, or killing them all and possibly removing the Zone (which is not threatening the world and is just sitting there).


When did I ever say, "save the world" You don't save the world in fallout either. You save a localized group of people in the area you adventure in. Which is the same in both games.

silva wrote:
Kaelik is confusing theme for genre. Sometimes genre tags indeed indicate commonly shared themes and issues, but other times don't.


That's rich coming from someone who confuses AI programming with theme.

No you idiot, I am talking about how both games have the same fucking themes. Stalker isn't a post apocalyptic game, but it creates a similar setting by confining gameplay to a post nuclear location. But in that setting it explores the same themes as fallout, which are different from the themes in Mad Max or the Road. Learn to fucking read, I have talked about the themes of both fallout and Stalker in several posts showing that they are the same. I can understand how you might miss that because you don't know what themes are, and you think aesthetics are themes, and you think AI programming is themes for some reason.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
So you mean that both people are scavengers

Nope. One is trying to save his people (Fallout), the other is in it just for the money (Stalker).


Learn what the word scavenger means.

silva wrote:
Quote:
in a post nuclear event

Nope. Stalker's Zone has nothing to do with nuclear whatsoever.


"In keeping with the post-nuclear decay within The Zone, extreme radiation has caused mutations among animals and plants in the area."

"Radiation caused by the nuclear incidents at Chernobyl occurs in specific invisible patches throughout The Zone"

silva wrote:
Quote:
and incidentally end up saving everyone by their actions

Nope. Stalker protagonist dont save anyone by his actions. The Zone continue to exist (and to grow) after his deeds, whatever ending you achieve.


"Afterwards, Strelok is shown standing in a grassy field, watching the sky as the clouds break and the sun comes out. The Zone is apparently gone."

silva wrote:
Really, pal. Your ignorance about Stalker is showing. At least read the wikipedia article. You should feel less embarassed.


Apparently I'm not the one that needs to read the wikipedia article.

silva wrote:
Also, answer my previous question: do you think Mad Max and Tarkovsky Stalker deal with the same themes ?


How about you answer my question. Is the color of Spain the same as the upwards trajectory of the square root of Pineapple?

Or we can both ignore irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the conversation and you can read my actual analysis of the themes of fallout and stalker.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Did... did people forget that silva is a liar and a troll, and no matter how many argument points you score against him, you already lost as soon as you took his bear-bait?
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik, my bro, the Zone in Stalker has nothing to do whatsoever with nuclear radiation. Insisting it does only proves you know nothing of the game.

And really, if for you Mad Max as a work deals with the exact same themes and issues as The Road or Tarkovski Stalker, then the one needing to google the definition of themes is you, not us.
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silva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Did... did people forget that silva is a liar and a troll, and no matter how many argument points you score against him, you already lost as soon as you took his bear-bait?

Hehe. Sorry to disappoint you bro.

ROFL ROFL ROFL
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Longes
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Longes wrote:
1. What is this "saving the world" you are talking about? In Stalker the world is not in danger at any point, and the game ends with you either joining the scientist hivemind that is trying to bring world peace, or killing them all and possibly removing the Zone (which is not threatening the world and is just sitting there).


When did I ever say, "save the world" You don't save the world in fallout either. You save a localized group of people in the area you adventure in. Which is the same in both games.


Well, you said "save everyone". You don't 'save' anyone in Stalker. Stalkers are willingly in the Zone. They are earning money there. It's a business.
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