OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

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Kaelik
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OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by Kaelik »

Fiendish Codex I
The One About the Ones that Want to Eat You

It was the late great year of 2006. Shhhh I know it was only 9.5 years ago, don't tell anyone. People still cared about D&D 3.5, and WoTC had accidentally stumbled upon the kind of not shitty method of producing books by themeing them based on monsters. You could have fluff because monsters, you could have monsters, because monsters, you could clean up stupid rules mistakes or confusions, because most of those involved monster interactions or spells that interacted with monsters, and you could have two different types of player options, be like monsters, or kill monsters.

They were even about to start the best possible version of those supplements, dealing with Demons and Devils, two of the best kinds of monsters in D&D. You can do anything! You can FLY! But you know what you can't do? Write anything that is good at all, or at least not if your name is Ed Stark, James Jacob, or Erik Mona. This could have been a book that fixed Planar Binding and Gate, that made the planes less stupid, and that provided cool options for playing as a Demon or Demon user, and also introduced cool Demons for you to fight, and given options to DMs to customize Demons. One out of Six ain't bad right?

I'm not going to pretend that I noticed different author tendencies when it comes to material, but I do know that Mona and Jacobs ended up working for Pathfinder, so seeing a bunch of fiddly shit that is weaker than extremely basic optimization material that already existed, demanding you pay real actual power for right to be the character themed how you want to be themed isn't surprising at all now.

Welcome to Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, where you can be like a demon, but really shitty and weak, or you can fight demons, but really shittly and weakly, or you can fight against demons, those are cool though, because fuck PCs.

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Bullshit Intro Chapter

For the most part, this is everything you know it is without opening the book "You can use PrCs, so can Demons!" "This material helps you fight Demons sometimes!" "Man I sure hope there are feats in this book!" "Did you know we put monsters in this book?" But one particular part sticks out:
This stupid book wrote:The material contained in this tome updates earlier material, drawing from earlier sources freely and eliminating contradictions. If you have used earlier sources and you find lore in those books that contradicts Fiendish Codex . . . well, demons are known for spreading misinformation. Use the material that works best for your campaign—but be aware that future D&D works will rely on Fiendish Codex I for the definitive answers to Abyssal questions.
You hear that? This book overrides the Manual of the Planes, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Except maybe it doesn't. But it probably does officially (hey aren't we working on 4e prototypes? Yes? So when we say going forward we will use this, we really mean there will never be another book that addresses these issues in any way?)

Keep this in mind, because it becomes important later.

Lore About Demons That Does More to Destroy Your Soul Than Any Demon In This Book

This entire chapter is called Lore, but only about half of it is actually lore. All the Lore is stupid as fuck. Highlights include:

The Abyss is a single sentience of which all Demons are a part of. It has a singular goal, and all the parts of it work towards this singular goal at all times. What? This sounds extremely ordered and not at all Chaotic? Fuck you! Well it is okay because the individual demons who mostly lack individuality (because they are part of the collective consciousness) are still chaotic. Like… they form a strict hierarchy based on CR and serve their masters and obey higher CR demons. Especially Demon Princes, they command total and complete obedience from lesser Demons who want nothing more than to serve them. Wait, that’s also lawful and not Chaotic? Well what the fuck did you want from us, a coherent explanation of chaos? I mean sure, we could have written “demons attack each other in power struggles all the time and act independently and in conflict with each other’s goals and they generally don’t work together.” But we get paid by that word, and that isn’t much money! Oh by the way, the reason all Demons are immune to electricity and poison even though they are supposed to be chaotic and unique is because the Abyss gives all demons the characteristics the Abyss thinks are most essential to its goal of vaguely defined destruction of the mortal and immortal worlds. Apparently Good isn’t the only dumb, because an entire plane consciousness thinks that immunity to electricity is the single essential characteristic necessary to world destruction.

Demon Creation: No one really knows how demons are created. Could be anything. Some people think that Demons are evil badasses who were real evil in life, but those are only CR 20 badass NPCs, not shitty PCs or level 10 characters. You have to be on a personal first name basis with Orcus before he will turn you into a Nalfashenee when you die. But we want to make it super clear, when you, a level 10 evil bastard die, you do not get to be a demon, not even some shitty Dretch, instead, you spend eternity being tortured by Demons. Instead, for your lifetime of service to Erythrul or Grummush, they punish you for eternity. Or maybe they just let you be punished by Pelor, we don’t know. The important thing is that Fuck You, Gods are good and just, even the ones that are Chaotic Evil, so for being Chaotic Evil you are punished with an eternity of torture.

So Demons are created somehow and we have no idea how, what about death? Well, remember how Calling Magic and Summoning Magic are two totally different things, and if you summon something and kill it nothing happens, and if you call something and kill it, then it dies? Let’s fuck that up! It turns out, that if you call a demon to the material plane, and then kill it, or hell, even if it walks through a portal, or planeshifts to the material plane and you kill it, then it just dies on the Material and it’s “Essence” which is totally different from a soul, because Outsiders don’t have souls, just goes back to the Abyss by magic that you can’t stop in any way, and the Demon might or might not get demoted as punishment for not serving the Abyssal hive consciousness well, but in no case does it die. WTF! But don’t worry, if you travel to the Abyss, and kill a Demon there, it still dies for real. Uh… okay. Whatever.

Well since Demons on the Material Plane are actually immortal, surely that means they really want to get to the Material. And since the Abyss is a single hive consciousness directing all Demons toward a nebulous goal of destroying the material plane, it must follow that the Material Plane is just lousy with Demons right? Well no, because the Abyss traps Demons and imprisons them in the Abyss. WTF! But you just said that Demons are a creation of its will that exist for the express purpose of destroying the material plane! Why would it trap them where they can never do that? Well, at least they can escape by occasionally portals that appear, and by being called. Hey, can you demonstrate that you have no idea how calling magic works real quick book?
”Gated Demons” wrote: A gate spell often helps the caster control a demon while it remains outside the Abyss, but fiends practice deception and betrayal as a part of life. An unwary or overly ambitious spellcaster could find a gated demon outside his control too quickly for him to respond, which could result in a demon on the loose.
Yes, you know how those tricksy demons that are absolutely under your control can just escape from your notice and be permanently on the material plane. . . for a concentration duration.

Next comes Demonic Roles. This is pretty bog standard, imagine the not always great but not always terrible advice in the MM descriptions. Now imagine it was written for “Demons” instead of a specific Demon, so the author can’t mention any powers at all, because he doesn’t know what powers the monster has. You can see how useless this is. Assassins set up an attack, and then try to kill the target, and run away if they fail. Brutes buff up, attack the targets, try to kill them, and then run away if it doesn’t go well. If those sound like the same thing, it is because they are, also the sample Assassin and Brute Demons both include every Demon over CR 9. Corrupters offer deals to get people alone, at least this sounds slightly different, Manipulators are called out as a bad role for Demons, and then they basically give the same advice as the Corrupter. Finally the Overlord. . . has minions. Orders his minions to attack. Wow, that was helpful.

Possession

Now comes the second half of the chapter, the part that isn’t even remotely lore related. Did you know that demons can possess people? I mean sure, it is nowhere in the rules and not mentioned anywhere before this book except the Fiend of Possession PrC from Fiend Folio, but they can totally do it. Which ones and how? Glad you asked, all of them, none of them, and we don’t know.

This section basically creates a template that can be applied to “any Demon with 4HD or more, and a Cha score of at least 13.” This is by the way, every single Demon that exists and has more than 4HD. Literally all of them. PC access is somewhat limited, could you be a Dretch (LA +2 and 2HD) and have a Cha score of higher than 11 from your PB or rolls, and then take two Wizard levels, and then get this template? Who knows? Could you put a Cloak of Charisma on your Quasit Improved Familiar and give him the template? Who knows? There are no rules for applying the template, or obtaining it, or figuring out if a demon should or could have it on creation. Instead, the only rules say “Sometimes a fiend with at least 4 Hit Dice and a Charisma score of at least 13 has the supernatural ability to shuck its physical form and take on an incorporeal one that enables it to possess other creatures—or even objects.” And “A fiend with this ability has a Challenge Rating 2 higher than standard fiends of its kind.”

Now you ask, what does this template do that makes it so good that I would seriously waste seconds of my life asking if you want to play an ECL 4 character with stinking cloud once a day as your only ability? Everything! First, you leave your body, and become incorporeal. This is like Astral Projection, in that if you die, you just return to your body, but better, because no silver thread. Your body sits somewhere, and you can’t leave the plane it is on, so you are merely limited to storing your body someplace safe (while it doesn’t need to breath or eat, so lead boxes are nice) and then adventuring as an incorporeal ghost. What you say, ghosts are different because they are on the ethereal plane? Yeah, the writers of this book don’t understand ethereal and incorporeal any better than any random blithering idiot DM you’ve seen, so they assumed that by going incorporeal you automatically created an ethereal version of yourself at the same time like a ghost. The rules never say that you have an ethereal form, but they do describe you moving around on the ethereal, how you see from there, the action it takes to transfer between planes. Wait, doesn’t that make no sense at all? Of course not, shut up and let them ramble.

But wait you say, being an immortal ghost is no good if you can’t do anything. Glad you pointed that out, because now we get to crazy town. “While incorporeal on the ethereal plane it has its full range of special attacks and special qualities, attacks normally, and does full normal damage. WTF, you are incorporeal on the material plane and corporeal on the ethereal (even though you shouldn’t be on the ethereal at all), not incorporeal on the ethereal! But anyway, on the material plane you are incorporeal, and lose all your extraordinary, supernatural, and SL abilities. So you can’t do shit except possess people or things unless you are fighting phase spiders. Okay. On to possession.

First of all, Protection of Evil completely protects someone from being possessed by you. But it does nothing at all once you are already possessing them. WTF? Okay sure. You can also make a hide check with Int as your ability modifier against the save DC of a magic circle spell to enter it when your possessed creature enters it. Or you can just go in, because it only hedges out summons, whatever. To possess a creature, you have to be adjacent to it, and then it has to fail a will save. It doesn’t know that you are possessing it at all. Once inside, it cannot be removed by any means except exorcism. And by that I mean, that you can either cast the Exorcism spell in this book, or you can cast Banishment, Dismissal, or Dispel Evil, and they force a will save from the demon even without line of effect, and regardless of which spell you use, they return to their body (and do not get actually banished or dismissed). Unclear whether Banishment gets it’s free +40 to DC effect or not for this will save.

So far, you can ride around in a creature, and nothing short of a high level cleric can get you out, and no one knows you are there anyway. Where do we go from here? Where is the real ultimate power? Well, once you are in a creature, you are by default a “Rider” which means you detect thoughts them as if you have concentrated for 3 rounds, and they get no save and have no idea you are there. Also you can alert them to your presence by reading their memories, they get a will save to resist, and if they succeed you have to wait 24 hours to try again. So basically, if you capture a guy, your Quasit is the best interrogation tool in the universe. From there you can do different things:

First you can offer to be an ally, in which case they get a +4 Profane bonus to any ability score that you can take away at any time. Wait… you can my Quasit Familiar just give me a +4 bullshit bonus to Int all the time while being immortal? Yes, yes he can. Alternatively, you can be a controller, in which case you force a will save DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod+1 per each time they have failed this save in the past. So if you possess someone long enough, the basically only succeed on a 20. The duration of the control effect is 10+1/2HD+Cha mod+1 for each time you have controlled them. If you are in control, you run their character for them but with your own mental scores. You get to use their supernatural and extraordinary abilities, but you can’t use their SLAs. Unless you have 9HD, and an Int of 15, and have controlled them for 10 rounds each day for a week (so basically one success each day) in which case you can also use their SLAs. Not clear how spells work, because fuck rules clarity, but whatever. You can still just be a Dretch who possesses a stone giant. Or have your familiar go off and possess a CR 13 Iron Golem (+6 Will save) at ECL 4. Oh yeah, you didn’t know, this is a non Necromancy, non Mind Affecting, non Magical will save effect. They even explicitly suggest that demons like to possess golems because they have low will saves!

What happens if they make a save though? Well you just go back to being a rider, and also they are staggered for a round, oh, and you can try again next round. And if they make three consecutive saving throws, you have to wait 24 hours. Consecutive. So you probably never even have to stop controlling them. And if you try to take control in the middle of a combat, they might let you, because you will be trying to win the combat, and the alternative is being staggered. But that still counts towards their +1 to the Save DC and +1 rounds of control next time.

You can also inflict a -4 penalty to an attribute, no save. But to do this, you have to stop controlling it, so if you are using your familiar in combat, you will just launch that sucker at someone and either gain an ally, or no save stagger an enemy for three rounds. Probably better than giving a -4 penalty.

What about remaining hidden? Well how about being pretty much in control, but them not even knowing that you are there? Sounds good right? You can be a Mutterer, and what happens is every single round (if you want) you can force them to make a save, and if they fail the save, they take whatever action you command (such as “attack your allies with your most powerful spell”) or if the make the save, they are confused. That’s right, no save confusion from your familiar on whomever the strongest enemy is. Also, they still have no idea that they are possessed regardless of the result. Wow.

Well that’s all well and good Kaelik, you might say, and you have described how the real path to ultimate power is a Quasit Familiar, but what about DMs who want to fuck over the party? Where is the love for asshole DMs who hate fun? The party will metagame the mutterer shit, and will figure out the possession, and will have a cleric solve the problem before it can get too bad. I want to make my party suffer! Okay, fine, let’s say your party is level 10. Well it would be fair to send a Vrock at them right? And it would be fair to send an EL 10 CR 11 creature at them right? Right, so what you are going to do, is you are going to send and EL 11 possession Vrock at them. What? But what does that do, we just covered how they can deal with possession before it becomes an issue. Ahh, but we haven’t covered the final form of possession. Transformation. In this one, your ethereal/incorporeal demon floats around, finds a level 1 Commoner who has no ranks in knowledge, will never know he is being possessed, and will never make a save. Then once each day the Vrock forced a Fort save DC 10+1/2HD+con mod. If it fails, which it will, then the 1/4th the commoner transforms into a Vrock. There are all these fiendish characteristics rules that you don’t care about for this part. But if he then fails a subsequent will save, he has to hide his transformation from others. Even if he does tell others, who cares, he’s a commoner, they probably drive him out of town. 3 days later, the transformation is complete, and he is 100% vrock. At this point, the person inside, the commoner, loses control, and the possessing demon gets full control all the time. The body is literally identical to the Vrock’s old body. So it can Greater Teleport from half way around the world to attack the party, and it can summon just like a regular Vrock, oh yeah, and it is immune to the Banishment and Dismissal spells. Because why not. If you kill the body, the host dies, and the Vrock spirit returns to his own body to begin the process and attack you again in 4 days. Also it specifically calls out that powerful demons have cultists who willingly undergo transformation possession. So you get attacked every 4 days, never get any loot (probably has all its treasure in the form of Eternal Wands of buff spells that it uses before it attacks and leaves with the cultists) and have to deal with this same shit every day for eternity, and the only thing that is different from a normal Vrock each time is that it is immune to the best possible spell for using against it.

Also you can possess objects. You can ride around invisible in an object for ten days to give you a +10 to the DC to possess a creature that wears, holds, or carries the object. You can possess the ground, and the cast bestow curse on anyone who walks on the ground. You can control moving objects, like a wheel, or animate unmoving objects when you have enough HD that you no longer care about animating objects and you can just possess an Iron Golem anyway. You can also give an item magic powers. This one can actually be fun and powerful, the fun is creating a wight army by duplicating a +3 sword, and then when someone picks it up, turning it into a +1 Unholy or Anarchic Sword and making them take negative levels and die, becoming a wight. The Powerful is that if you get bored having an Iron Golem Familiar, or having a +4 bullshit bonus to Int, you can turn your Familiar into a Ring of Freedom of Movement, but its an evil Ring of Freedom of Movement though, so you should feel bad about wearing it.

Finally, some knowledge checks, DC 10, Fiends can possess people. DC 40: Still no useful information that wasn’t given at DC 10. Fuck You Players!

New Monsters!

Before we give you any new monsters, here are two new subtypes that will only ever be used on the 4 creatures in this book, and a restatement of the Demon subtype as the Tanar’ri Subtype. This completely negates that stupid thing we said earlier about how the Abyss consciousness decided that all demons needed to be immune to electricity? Well who fucking cares?

Loumaru Subtype: Immune to Acid, Electricity,and Fire. Resist Cold 10. Why didn’t the Abyss decide that all the MM demons needed those abilities but this subtype based on never being corporeal did? Fuck if I know. Also Incorporeal and Possesion. But stupid. So unlike the possession rules we jus covered, Loumara have no physical body for you to find and destroy, negating 1/4th the rules and half the knowledge checks for possession. Also, “all loumaras can possess physical objects or creatures. The exact kind of object or creature a specific loumara can possess is noted in the creatures description.” Wait, so you made a call back to the possession rules that just took up 10 pages, and you followed it with telling us that 90% of it doesn’t apply? Why would anyone ever want to be a shitty Loumara when they could instead be a regular possession demon who can possess any creature or object? Are you telling us those rules were wrong, and the only ones that can possess at all are this shitty subtype that doesn’t have a corporeal body and you were lying about all that leaving their bodies vulnerable shit?

Obyrith subtype: Immune to Poison and Mind Affecting, ER everything 10, Fast Healing (amount in description), Form of Madness: within 60ft must make will save, fail, permanent madness or insanity, depending on type, make save, immune for 24 hours. Special so ugly blindness is no protection, but it is Mind Affecting, but chaotic evil outsiders are immune. This isn’t even a subtype. Basically some shitty rules for something that might as well have been a gaze attack, and no actual descriptions of what the ability does in the subtype, because this shouldn’t be a subtype. Also they have true seeing, because why the fuck not.

Finally, creatures, first thing you should know, this is the end of 3.5, where they have a really dumb page wasting method of creature entries. For every single creature, they have a strategy and tactics section (not terrible, although sometimes it basically just says “attack things”), a sample encounter, mostly worthless, Ecology (this is about demons, the ecology is “the abyss or anywhere on the material plane”), Society (“controlled by the Abyss consciousness, also uncontrollable murderers, also rigid hierarchy of demons, all the dumb things you just explained in the last chapter, repeated for no reason, or contradicted, also for no reason”), Typical Treasure (“the shit on them in their entry”), Advancment (“two sentences to tell you their favorite class if not advanced by HD, although who cares because there are 3 more demons in the same CR range you can use instead”). Basically a huge waste of space.

Armanite:

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CR 7 flying Centaur Demon. Makes charge attacks that count as mounted, also shoots lightning arrows if your party is so dumb they can’t fly. Not terrible in concept or execution. Chance to clone itself because why not.

Bar-Lgura:

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CR 5 Monkey Demon. Invisible Pouncer, also Telekinesis and Major Image. Can bring unwilling subjects with Greater Teleport, DC 18. Basically a CR 5 Bone Devil, but instead of using Wall of Ice to split the party, it forces you to make a will save, and if you fail, it 1v1s you, and even if you win, you are 400 miles from your party and fucked. Basically that thing the rpgsite grognards whine about at level 10, this is that, but worse, at level 5. Not a terrible monster, but way too easy to abuse. Chance to summon a copy of itself to leave to fight the 3 people it didn’t teleport away with.

BroodSwarm:

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This is a CR 6 flying swarm of tiny creatures. With a minute worth of sitting around, they have a 50% chance of summoning a CR 9 nighthag. So if they use that at all before engaging, your level 6 party has a 50% chance of being hella fucked. Supposedly they only summon the hag if they capture something, so let’s assume that the Nighthag is a just a coup de grace on your already fucked characters, and see what it does on its own. Swarm, so bullshit, DR 5/Cold Iron, so basically only the Wizard is doing anything. Anyone within 30ft must make a Will DC 15 save or be dazed for one round, but after you succeed you are immune for 24 hours. Evasion and fuck off high ref save, because fuck you using AoEs on a swarm. Each round you are in the swarm, 2d6 damage, and -2 dex penalty. Unlike all other penalties ever, this adds with itself, and can reduce you to zero at which point you are helpless, mute, blind. You can make a DC 20 strength check (it doesn’t say what action) to break free and succeed or fail you take 2d6 damage. Why isn’t the dex penalty dex damage? Because these fucks are literally sewing your limbs together with tiny little hooks. Presumably that was a good enough justification to tell undead and constructs to get fucked. I rate it Puzzle Encounter out of 10.

Bulezau:

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CR 9 Goat Demon Bruiser. Some decent Crowd control, in the form of Solid Fog at will, Fear 3/day, and telekinesis, so this thing could beat entire parties by throwing objects at them while they are in a solid fog, but presumably you will be nice and have it only use Solid Fog once, and charge someone when they get out with it’s powerful charge ability, which is just a big gore with a spear, followed by four attacks per full attack. Not worthless, but I question if this really occupies a different space than other bruiser demons. Chance to clone itself, because one solid fog at will telekinesis kiter was too few.

Chasme:

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CR 10 Flying Insect Bruiser Demon. Still has Telekinesis. Replace Solid Fog with Fly, Dispel Magic, Darkness, Desecrate, Insect Plague, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Contagion at will, quickened Ray of Enfeeblement 3/day. Replace Fear with a Fear Aura. Also Unholy Aura. Begins combat with a full round 60 radius spread DC 16 will save or sleep. So basically, maybe you all die, probably someone wastes an action kicking the guy on the ground in the first round of combat. Then it kites you with insect plagues, telekinesis, flying, dispelling your fly spells, and Greater Teleport, all this while enfeebling you. Eventually the DM gets bored and it comes into melee, you all get a Fear aura, and then it fights with four attacks. Another “Could kill the whole party if they aren’t smart, or could just get unlucky and fail a save against Finger of Death.” Remember when I said possession Vrocks? Fuck that, use this fucker instead, not that dangerous, but super fucking annoying. Also has a chance to clone itself, because Demon. Also, I’ll just mention this now, the authors hate players that go invisible. Every fucking Demon has see invis at will, you better not try to fucking hide your wizard you cock!

Dybbuk:

I love this piece of shit. CR 8 possession demon. Unfortunately no picture, but it looks like a floating jellyfish and it is hilarious. This jellyfish floats around touching people for 1d6 con damage. Once per day, it slaps a 10d6 damage rider on the touch. Not that impressive, but the real fun is that this guy can possess corpses of an animal, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or vermin. Theoretically, you might want to possess some big ass vermin and have it fight smart, but fuck that. Because when it possesses a creature’s corpse, that creature gets restored to full health, and then when it gets fucked up, the jellyfish gets shunted out next to it, and possesses it again the next round unless it has been beheaded or the body disintegrated. So what you do, is you possess a PyroHydra, and then you fight the party, and when they kill the PyroHydra, they fight another full strength PyroHydra next round (you can choose to be shunted to the adjacent square of “the ground under they hydra’s corpse” and then possess it again next round), and this repeats until they cut off and acid all the heads shut. Another solid Puzzle Encounter out of 10. For those keeping score, this is our first new subtype creature. You’ll notice it uses less than zero of the rules in the Possession chapter. Yeah, don’t ask me.

Ekolid:

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Our first not really a subtype subtype creature. Remember these things are so horrifically monstrous to look at that even blind people are driven insane by the sight of them. So what does it look like? A big ant bug mouth with wings and like 6 scorpion tails. . . I’m not amused. I personally might need to make a will save or go insane if I ran into that, but I think your average adventurer or blind commoner might be fine… well, until they got stabbed with 6 scorpion tails. So the CR 4 Ant-Scorpo exists. You see the B movie reject, and you make a DC 14 will save and you are either immune for 24 hours, or you imagine being bitten by insects all over and this causes you to take a -1 penalty on all skill checks… not even attack rolls? Adrenaline must be one hell of a drug, I think I would curl up into a ball and die if I was being bitten by a legion of tiny insects. Also you have to make a DC 10 Concentration check to cast spells. DC 10? Pffff. But this is permanent until you get a spell cast on you that is like 3 spell levels higher than anything you have access to right now, so you take your minus one to skill checks and you like it for the next 5 levels. Then it flys 60ft and attacks you with 6 stingers and a bite, because it has two move actions per round. Because fuck fighters, that is why. Each stinger forces a DC 15 save or else an egg is implanted in you that hatches NEXT ROUND doing 1d6 damage and nauseating you for a turn. WTF even if this. These things grow to maturity in a couple hours. This thing could walk into a village and it would be overrun by Ant-Scorpos in an couple hours. Also, how does any of this work with the whole “Demons are created by the Abyss consciousness” bullshit? This should be a magical beast, and also, it should have an incubation period of fucking hours, not 6 seconds. Whatever. First not subtype subtype rating: B movie emulator 10/10, actual monster 7/10, demon 0/10 this isn’t a demon, it looks like an Bug and it breeds like an Bug and it is immune to Mind Affecting effects like a Vermin. Someone just came up with a cool Vermin and had to shove it in the Demon book. Also, true seeing from the type, because fuck your invisible PCs.

Goristro:

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This is a CR 16 Huge Minotaur Demon. It has 24HD, 300HP, DR 15/good, Fast Healing 5, 29AC. It has two slams for +29 that do 3d6+28 damage. It can throw a rock that does 2d8+12 damage. It can cause Earthquakes by stomping on the ground that don’t effect it, and it has See Invis as an extraordinary ability, because fuck your invisible characters in an AMF! If it punches you, you go flying. It has fear and spider climb and levitate at will. For all that, it is pretty much a pushover. It has 300HP, but a touch AC of 7, and is immune to basically nothing. He doesn’t even have very good saves for CR 16. You could Stun Ray the thing and take your time deciding which one of the 400 ways to kill something like this you want to use. You could have your quasit familiar go possess the thing while you float always 60ft above it no matter how high it levitates. But hey, when you get to level 17, You can Dominate Monster the poor guy and use him as yet another example of why you don’t need the fighter because you can bring your own better fighters if you care. Also he heals himself for you so you don’t even need to waste wands. Fuck off Fighter. Oddly, cannot clone himself, which is weird, because that would make it cooler without making it anymore dangerous.

Guecubu:

There isn't even a picture of this, it is just a picture of a guy having a headache.

CR 4 Possession spirit number two. This thing isn’t even a demon a little bit. It has an aura that shakens you until you leave the area, and then when you come back, you have to save again, but who cares, it can never stack because you don't have to save a second time until you leave and come back, and you eventually become immune for 24 hours by making the save. It can touch you, and you have to make a save or go to sleep, but who cares, because someone can kick you and wake you up. It is naturally invisible in a way that is really greater invis, and it is immune to invisibility purge. They don’t even provide a description of what it looks like, because players can’t have see invisibility, that is just for us to put on all our monsters! It can throw objects at you with telekinesis or trip you. What a fucking prankster poltergeist. This is someone watching a ghost movie. Also it can possess anyone who is asleep, and do everything except transform them. Congrats, you get the bullshit possession ghost disease. Hope you figure out you need to cast see invis and murder it in the face after you kick it out. Because otherwise it will just possess you again. Fuck this ghost spirit bullshit. This is just trolling your players 101, the monster. I rate it Stupid Puzzle Monster out of 10.

Lilitu:

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A CR 12 Succubus. She casts spells like a level 9 Cleric, (that is an Ex ability, so you explicitly get it with shapechange and polymorph, if you care), you can’t discern her alignment, even though she looks like an evil asshole, so who cares, she take a SR and saves penalty against Divine Spells for no reason (not even good divine spells, just divine spells, apparently Grummush hates her too for some reason?). Once per day she can grant a paltry Cha and saves bonus that allows her to track you wherever you go, and see with your eyes and talk to you in your head. Sure whatever. She can use any magic item as if she successfully used the Use Magic Device Skill, and no one knows what happens if she wants to use a Staff while emulating CL 500000, but you can find out by getting a staff of Holy Word, shapechanging into her, using her Ex ability, and asking your DM, have fun. Also gets at will charm monster, detect thoughts, disguise self with no duration limit, fly, suggestion, greater teleport, sending, and tongues. 1/day Dominate, quickened Suggestion, and symbol of persuasion. This monster… isn’t garbage. Her entire thing is looking like a pretty girl through magic and blessing and buffing the party while pretending to be their allies and really manipulating them. If it comes to a fight, she going to get ass beat, but whatever, she’s a monster, that was inevitable, the main thing is she’s like a succubus, but the players don’t feel as bad when she’s manipulating them because she does it by lying to them and spying on them instead of magical compulsion. Cannot clone herself though.

Mane:

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A CR 1 Bloated Sack of gas. Does fuck all in combat till it dies, then explodes like shitty DC 12 CL 1 Acidball. Whatever, I guess if you get paid by the word one more CR 1 monster that surprise fucks the PCs won’t matter. Of particular Page Bloat Note, remember all that bullshit stuff they write for every monster? Every part of it for Manes is a waste, but the Advancment section for the Mane is longer than for every other monster, and it says “Manes don’t advance, they get turned into other Demons” in 136 words. I fucking counted. Thanks fuckface, no one cares if the Balor used to be a Mane. It’s still a Balor.

Molydeus:

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I think this name literally means multi-god. Whatever, CR 19. It’s a Big ass redskinned Barbarian Body with a Hyena head and a snake growing out of the neck. It has some stats, you don’t care what they are. It has a dancing Vorpal Greataxe that bypasses DR that melts away when it dies to deprive you of treasure because of course it does, you don’t care. It’s neck snake bites once per round as a free action and does 2d6 Con Drain that is a poison that bypasses Poison immunity because fuck you, and if your con is reduced to zero you become a Mane and you need a Wish or Miracle because of course the DM is pissed that Resurrection and Poison immunity are things, and you still don’t care. It has True Seeing and can’t be flanked, because fuck rogues, and you are sort of starting to care. It can summon a Maralith with 100% success rate. You care. Now for the fun part, SLAs. Trap the Soul 1/day, Quickened Telekinesis 3/day (not sure how that interacts with concentration duration but sure), some dimensional locks and lightningbots, per day, and at will invis, Greater Teleport, Greater Dispel, Fly, Fear, Blashemy CL 19, and Baleful Polymorph. Okay, so he’s not really any better or worse than other high CR evil Outsiders. Just another dickhole who spams save or dies and fights with a weapon that disintegrates, because fuck you. I rate it a Sure I Guess, Whatever, out of 10. Just remember, you are also fighting a Maralith, and Fuck you invisible PCs!

Juvenile Nabassu:

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CR 5 Scaly Gargoyle Looking Fuck. This guy is actually pretty cool. He has camo and flight, which isn’t terrible, his combat stats are not particularly impressive for level 5, but he has a 30ft gaze attack that gives negative levels and things that die rise as ghouls under it’s control. Now to understand this creature at all, you have to understand that things can turn off their gaze attacks. Basically, this thing gets a bunch of kickass bonuses for killing and eating people as part of a coup de grace attack when they are helpless but alive, and ghouls can paralyze people, but it has to turn off its gaze to eat them (probably). So when it comes to fighting the PCs, once he realizes they can kick his ass without his aura, he has to turn it back on, try to kill them, fail, and run off. But they can kill all his ghouls, so he has to start over making Ghouls in order to get the ghouls to paralyze more commoners to eat them. So the monster has a built in motivation, Eat people, that the PCs are going to want to interrupt. He gets stronger the more he eats, so the PCs want to stop him before he succeeds, and the PCs have the ability to at least slow him down if they keep tracking him down. All in all, he can be a fun, memorable encounter for a lower level party to get super fucking pissed about. Also they might lose, but in the way where he eats 30 people, not in the way they get died. Also when he eats 29 people he can kick their ass (+145HP, +29 to AB and AC and saves) so basically, they are going to give up or win before it gets to that point. But if he gets to 30 he transforms into:

Mature Nabassu: CR 15 still the same Gargoyle thing. Now, the first part of this makes no sense, because it says that when the juvenile feeds on the 30th corpse it loses the benefits, instantly transforms into a Mature Nabassu, and then on the next turn the newly mature Nabassu plane shifts back to the abyss… but the Mature Nabassu doesn’t have plane shift. Does it get this power only once on completion? If so, why would it use it? Is it being sucked back to the Abyss? Why, if it was strong enough to resist being sucked back, why did becoming more powerful change that? Why would the Abyss consciousness want to such back the suddenly CR 15 monster that could now rampage around the material plane doing whatever it does? Whatever, on to the monster: Regeneration 5, 6d6 SA, reasonable not exactly big dumb fighter CR 15 stats, still has a gaze attack that does 1d4 negative levels, but instead of an active that also does negative levels, it is a death effect. Can summon a Glabrezu with a 30% chance, or 1d4 Hezrous with a 70% chance. I’d do the Hezrous. As a standard action it can force a will save or you are connected in a link that duplicates any damage you do to it on you, or any spell you cast on it on you as long as you are within 30ft. You are level 15, even close range spells have a range longer than 30ft, so you can back out of range and hit it with anything even if you fail the save, and this basically just a Fuck Melee Fighter effect. It has SLAs, Ethereal Jaunt and Greater TP for mobility, True Seeing for fuck your invisibility, unholy aura for generic buffs, Energy Drain for pouring more negative levels on things, Blasphemy, but meh, CL 15 and CR 15, and then, in case you are making the Fort saves on its death glare but not immune to negative levels, Enervation at will to stack with its negative level passive gaze and Energy Drain. Also it still makes ghouls, but at this point, you are level 15, if you care about the ghouls, you are doing it wrong. Honestly, this would have been a lot better as a CR 10 that really wrecked havoc on the countryside when you failed to beat the CR 5 version, instead of a CR 15 that immediately goes to the Abyss, and then takes 5 months to escape, only to show up when you are level 15 and watch you cast deathward and kick it’s fucking ass. I rate this CR 5 9/10, result of losing the objective game with the CR 5 2/10, CR 15 5/10.

Rutterkin:

Can't find a picture, but it is a CR 3 Ugly Person Demon. At will Cause Fear and Darkness, Can try to summon either itself (poor choice) or 1d6 Dretches. Has exotic weapon proficiency in two items, one looks like Shurikens that do more damage, so basically a fuck you to Monks, the only people using Shurikens who can’t replace them just as easily with this new crap, and a Snap-Tongue, which appears to be some kind of item that can be used to grapple people, but only small people, and then it does more damage each round you stay grappled. It also has two claws, and the claws do more damage than the weapon, so aside from grappling it doesn’t serve much purpose. This might as well be a Warrior with Cause Fear at will and a chance to get fucked by 5 or 6 Dretches at level 3.

Sibriex:

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A CR 15 Giant Floating Putrid Head Demon. Well at least it isn’t beaten by a single 4th level spell. This CR 15 leaves much to be desired. Basically you come across a floating head tethered to the ground by chains, and it floats at 20ft, slowly moving the chains forward. It is another form of madness not subtype subtype, and being within 60ft forces a mind affecting DC 24 Will Save, and if you fail you believe the Sibriex is just the most beautiful thing ever! Which means a -4 on enchantment saves and 1d6 Charisma drain (do these people hate damage for some reason? I’ve seen drains and penalties, but not a lot of ability damage). This can be healed by spells you already have access to, so you don’t care, also it is mind affecting, so you don’t care because you have Mindblank (to be fair, you can fight this before you are level 15, but still, this ability is so underwhelming for something that is CR 15 and was described as “insanity” in the subtype description, I mean, this isn’t even as good as Mindfog, and Mindfog is shit.) It can attack with its four animated chains and a bite attack, and be a worse version of a Chain Devil, something you could have fought in a closet 10 levels ago, instead of out in the open, where it can’t keep up with you, but it won’t do that. What it will do is spit acid on you that nauseates you as a swift action while using Hold Monster or FeebleMind every round while its minions kick your ass. No part of this monsters entry is helpful. It has acid spit that it can use as a swift action every 1d4 rounds, what is the range? Fuck if I know, it doesn’t say anywhere in the entry. Well okay, what else does it do, it Charms Monsters, it doesn’t even have Dominate, so fuck that, but whatever, it presumably has some minions, but who knows what? Also it can give its minions the Grafts from Fiend Folio for free, also itself, but the authors don’t seem to realize that, so I see giant piles of treasure you will never have, or alternatively, and evil demon you can befriend while under the effect of Mind Blank, and then get free Grafts from. So what grafts does it give to minions that you can exploit? Well, you can get a See in Darkness and Magical Darkness like a Devil and a super low DC Charm Monster Gaze effect. You can get See Invis in the other eye and a really low save Paralyze fear effect. You can replace your arms for +4 str, you can get a fly speed equal to twice your land speed with average maneuverability from your cool new black feathered wings or batlike wings The bat ones also grant ER 10 Cold and Fire. You can get a +4 racial bonus to listen and the Blindfight feat, but now if you roll a 1 on listen you get deafened and confused for 1d4+1 rounds, not worth it if you ask me. You can give the Fighter a Gore attack, if for some reason you aren’t PoA him into something better these days. You slap a bunch of tentacles onto your rogue that make an attack in addition to your other attacks, so you can have infinityd6 SA, you can slap a stinging tail onto that that does Str damage you don’t care about because you already have infinite Str damage that isn’t poison from your infinite Sneak attacks. All in all, what I’m trying to say is, I must have walked outside and seen a floating head, because I want to be friends with one of these fucks.

Yochlol:

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Or alternatively:
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A CR 8 Who Fucking Knows What Demon. Apparently this is a haindmaiden to lolth, so it can look like a Drow, and suck, it can look like a Spider, and suck, it can look like a Gaseous Cloud and you suffer the effects of Stinking Cloud if you are in or adjacent to it, and it can look like a pile of ooze with eight tendril attacks that it probably won’t use because it is too busy webbing you and dominate personing you. So basically, you kill a Gaseous Cloud while it tries to Nauseate you while trapping you in a web while dominating you. Hits all three saves, fucks over everyone, and the end result is a pretty decent monster. 8/10.

Next Time on OSSR

So next time we combine the “man does this fluff suck” with the “man are these monsters . . . surprisingly not all that bad” with DEMON LORDS. Then on to actual PC options!
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by RobbyPants »

Kaelik wrote: The Abyss is a single sentience of which all Demons are a part of. It has a singular goal, and all the parts of it work towards this singular goal at all times. What? This sounds extremely ordered and not at all Chaotic?
So, apparently the Abyss = Mechanus...

Kaelik wrote: Demon Creation: No one really knows how demons are created.
My first thought was: if there are supposed to be an infinite number of demons, once they exist, why would any more need to be created?

Was that concept introduced in here, or just later in the second codex? I seem to remember demons being infinite, devils being finite, and devils somehow holding their own via superior tactics (which seems to fail to understand what infinity really means).

Kaelik wrote:it’s “Essence” which is totally different from a soul, because Outsiders don’t have souls,
Ermahgerd :tsk:

Kaelik wrote:Well since Demons on the Material Plane are actually immortal, surely that means they really want to get to the Material. And since the Abyss is a single hive consciousness directing all Demons toward a nebulous goal of destroying the material plane, it must follow that the Material Plane is just lousy with Demons right? Well no, because the Abyss traps Demons and imprisons them in the Abyss. WTF! But you just said that Demons are a creation of its will that exist for the express purpose of destroying the material plane!
:rofl:
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Re: OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by Kaelik »

RobbyPants wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Demon Creation: No one really knows how demons are created.
My first thought was: if there are supposed to be an infinite number of demons, once they exist, why would any more need to be created?

Was that concept introduced in here, or just later in the second codex? I seem to remember demons being infinite, devils being finite, and devils somehow holding their own via superior tactics (which seems to fail to understand what infinity really means).
I don't know if you do need demons to be created or not, because infinities are complicated, but the infinity stuff is mostly from Manual of the Planes and FR setting and other stuff. This book never claims they are.
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Re: OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by RobbyPants »

Kaelik wrote: I don't know if you do need demons to be created or not, because infinities are complicated, but the infinity stuff is mostly from Manual of the Planes and FR setting and other stuff. This book never claims they are.
Ah. I've heard it said enough, that I didn't know when that became "fact", and whether or not it's canon. In that case, we might actually care how demons are created.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Are they going to call Devils lawful then have an utterly chaotic and individualist driven society of social mobility for them
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Post by Prak »

Actually... yeah, pretty much, if I recall correctly.
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Post by Ancient History »

Some of this is Inherited Stupidity, but a lot of the fluff is Reinventing The Wheel For No Reason. I've never understood game books where the finished product was in every respect worse than reprinting something from ten years ago.
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Re: OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by Koumei »

Kaelik wrote:Oh by the way, the reason all Demons are immune to electricity and poison even though they are supposed to be chaotic and unique is because the Abyss gives all demons the characteristics the Abyss thinks are most essential to its goal of vaguely defined destruction of the mortal and immortal worlds. Apparently Good isn’t the only dumb, because an entire plane consciousness thinks that immunity to electricity is the single essential characteristic necessary to world destruction.
Could they have not just said "the environment in the Abyss is super toxic and electrical, like there are just clouds of POISONOUS LIGHTNING GAS everywhere. Heaps of demons are spawned that lack those immunities... and they die basically on the spot." or would that have offended people who don't believe in natural selection so hard that even paying it lip service in a game causes them to be sad?
But we want to make it super clear, when you, a level 10 evil bastard die, you do not get to be a demon, not even some shitty Dretch, instead, you spend eternity being tortured by Demons. Instead, for your lifetime of service to Erythrul or Grummush, they punish you for eternity. Or maybe they just let you be punished by Pelor, we don’t know. The important thing is that Fuck You, Gods are good and just, even the ones that are Chaotic Evil, so for being Chaotic Evil you are punished with an eternity of torture.
For what it's worth, which books actually state that you do get alignment-based rewards instead of a lame Christian afterlife? I know it makes sense for particularly Chaotic Evil people to become demons and have a grand old life in the Abyss, and in a world where you actually can find out how this shit works, through planar travel, resurrection, divinations and all that, it gives a reason for Evil people to exist at all. But "it makes sense" has never been a good guideline before for these people... have they ever really stated that? Or was that just some Den mind-caulk that was laid out in Demonomicon?
Sibriex:

Image
I do not have my books on me, but I recall Sibbles there only being Large or Huge. Can you check what size it is supposed to be as opposed to the massive thing in that picture?
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Post by Kaelik »

They are large size. So that picture in the book better be a fucking brownie or something.
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Post by TiaC »

Kaelik wrote:They are large size. So that picture in the book better be a fucking brownie or something.
To be large size, that person would have to be under two feet tall.
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Post by Koumei »

Yeah, even if you only include the "ball" that sort of makes up the face there, and not the bloated stuff up top (call it a massive air bag like a blimp and not important for anything?) or the dangling tubes, that's still around 3 times the size of the chap there (though we could say "It's a halfling, all good"). And I don't think size categories work like that, just taking a "main part" and claiming the rest is excess that you ignore.

The thing is, although it's weird and icky, that's a good picture. It's an immense horrifying thing held down by chains, it towers above people. They should have gone by the picture and just made it Colossal - it's already a memorable boss by dint of giving out grafts.
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Post by Kaelik »

Demons Lords! Because CR 22 Enemies Are Never Poorly Designed Shitburgers

First off, you have to understand that Demon Lords are Demon Lords, not Demon Princes. Because the Abyss is too chaotic for princes. But not too chaotic for lords. Also some of them are princes. A Demon Lord killed not on their home layer is banished to their home layer for 100 years. A Demon Lord killed on its home layer is permanently destroyed. Most Demon Lords spend all their time on their home layer to stay safe from other Demon Lords. Well fuck, if Chaos is Giant Frog, then this section has that on lockdown, because if any of that was supposed to make any sense I sure didn’t pick up on it. Also if the Abyss wants to it, can undestroy any permanently destroyed Demon Lord. I can’t think of any reason it would ever not want to do that, but whatever.

As a callback to how dumb the Epic Handbook is, they provide some advice on how to accommodate Demon Lords to being challenges for 21st or higher level PCs. Nevermind that most of them are already higher than 20CR right now. Highlights include: 1) Add fuckoff piles of HD, 2) Change all their DR to DR/Epic, 3) increase SR the amount you increase CR, increase all ability scores by 2 for every 5CR, 3) Give them all Blasphemy at will, plane shift at will, unholy aura at will, and shapechange at will if they don’t already have them (why don’t they already have blasphemy and plane shift? Why does it matter if they have planeshift if they are banished to their home layer for 100 years?), 4) Add whatever other SLAs you want, because we are very helpful in our advice! 5) increase CL by one for every 2 CR you increase them, why yes, this does mean that CR 23 Demon Lords with Blasphemy at will at CL 22 are a real challenge and CR 45 Demon Lords with Blasphemy at will at CL 32 are basically a waste of PCs time, but why is that relevant? 6) You should add special abilities. They should fit the Demon Lords theme and be level appropriate. Aren’t we Fountains of good advice!

Baphomet:
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CR 20. Yes, this guy is the same CR as his lieutenants. But really, he is weaker than them. He has slightly more HP and DR, and a does more damage with a full attack. But he has a slower fly speed, his fly speed can be dispelled, he has worse saves, and instead of the suite of offensive SLAs such as Blasphemy, Dominate Monster, and Power Word Stun at will, he has . . . A standard action 30ft Bellow on a 1d4 round recharge that is a will save or panicked mind affecting fear effect, and a standard action 12d6 breath weapon 30ft cone on a 1d4 round recharge. That’s right, standing 40ft away from Bahomet makes you basically not give a shit, and who the fuck is going to even have to roll a will save against a mind affecting fear effect when fighting a CR 20? I mean, I guess he can try to dispel your Mind Blanks, but I’d rather face this chump than a Balor. And to add insult to injury, he can’t even summon a Balor, he can only summon a Goristo! So he can summon a garbage bruiser and then cast fly on him so he isn’t totally useless. But honestly, not sure why a Balor didn’t walk up to this sucker, Summon another Balor, and then kill him. Oh, but he does have Astral Projection at will, so you can face him every round of every day for the rest of your life and never kill him, until you sever his cord, and find out he was on the material plane, and his essence reverts to the Abyss, and then from the Abyss, you kill him and he is banished to his home layer, and then you kill him again and he is permanently destroyed for the 4 seconds it takes for the Abyss consciousness to decided that it wants him undestroyed. So he may suck, but you will have to fight him a lot of different times! Unless he is so dumb that he astral projects from his home plane, in which case you cut his cord once and he dies forever (6 seconds). At least when you kill him he does drop his +2 Wounding Glaive, unlike a fucking Balor… except that of course he is Astral Projecting, so he doesn’t.

Fluff wise, they have this whole list of which Demon Lords hate or like or support which other Demon Lords, and it isn’t terrible, but it does sort of shit all over that whole Abyssal Consciousness unified goal of destruction of the material plane when apparently Bahomet’s sole goal in life is to kill some other Demon Lord. Also Bahomet is a bull demon who summons bull demons and is served by Minotaurs. And the way your worship him is by cutting off the head of a bull. . . that is probably just a reference to stupid Christian beliefs about what Bahomet worshippers did or didn’t think about Bahomet that might or might not have been completely wrong 7000 years ago, and not really the fault of this book, but personally, I would insist on a strict no murdering things that look like me or my servants policy as a god/demon I feel like it would undermine respect for me.

At this point, I will briefly take a break to retroactively criticize the previous monster chapter that I praised. I liked that chapter, but I didn’t like many of their high CR enemies. There was a floating head that couldn’t do anything to you on its own at CR 15, a CR 15 that is rendered completely meaningless by casting Deathward, a CR 16 meaningless bruiser who is only barely a threat to a large pile of level 1 Warriors, and a CR 19 that didn’t noticeably distinguish itself from a Balor to my mind. Seems like dedicating that much space to enemies you fight when you have 8-9th level spells was a mistake when you are, in the very next chapter, going to present 14 enemies between CR 19 and 23. 14! You only had 17 total monsters and you spent four of them on CR 15 and higher! There are 13 monsters in this book for level 1-14 parties and 18 for level 15-20 + Epic no one ever plays parties! That is not the correct distribution! I want back my tepid acceptance of your inclusion of a CR 19 Demon that can probably beat up several demon lords. Give me another CR 8, or a CR 12 battlefield control monster, or something! Anyway, on to another Demon Lord.

Dagon:
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CR 22, Dagon is a Gargantuan Shark Octopus with hands with claws on his tentacles who rises from the depths and causes madness just by looking at him. Basically, this guy wishes he was Cthulhu but he didn’t have the money for face tentacles. First weird thing is you probably won’t face him in water much. He has Astral Projection and Greater Teleport at will, so he’s actually a gigantic fuck off teleport assassin, not an actual aquatic monster. I hope this Astral Projection thing doesn’t become a running theme of Demon Lords, but it probably will be. He would grapple you and then eat you, but you are level 17 or higher, so FoM exists. He would slap you with a bunch of tentacles for piddly damage and poison for “all your con” each round, but Delay Poison is like a level 2 spell and this CR 22 know everything about the abyss Demon Lord hasn’t figured out how to duplicate the effects of the CR 19, dime a dozen Balor replacement’s neck snake poison immunity piercing ability. Anyone within 120ft has to make a DC 25 will save (seems kinda small) or be permanently afraid of the ocean and aquatic creatures. This is still mind affecting, so you still don’t care when you actually see him from a mile of because he is Gargantuan, and you still don’t care when you first see him from 120ft away. And you can still cure this with a Heal spell, but if you are afraid of Aquatic Creatures then when you first start fighting an Aquatic Creature (such as Dagon) you have to make a second DC 25 Will save that is also a mind affecting fear effect, or be Paralyzed for 1d6 rounds. So basically, you can be immune to this whole thing by being a dragon too. Also once a day he can sing a song that makes you walk into the ocean and drown, and it is a mind affecting and sonic ability, that contrary to all abilities in the game with either or both of those tags pierces both Mindblank and Silence unless you have both up at the same time. How…? Why? Who fucking knows, but it has a 300ft radius spread, and you aren’t going to be within 300ft of water at this level because you can fly, so this may literally never come up. But he does have Greater Dispel Magic at will, and Quickened Greater Dispel Magic 3/day. Also allegedly according to the tactics and strategy section, his True Seeing allows him to know who has the most magical buffs effective at once. Even though True Seeing does not do that. Did it used to do that or something and these people just haven’t looked at the rules in 6 to 14 years? Why would they even think that True Seeing shows what buffs people have active?

So basically a fight with Dagon involves him appearing out of nowhere on land, and casting targeted greater dispel on you over and over again until you kill him, then he astral projects, teleports, and comes back again, hoping you haven’t had time to recast MindBlank, or Delay Poison, or Freedom of Movement, and then he tries to grapple and eat you, poison you for all your con, and drive you madly paralyzed with the awesomeness of his noodly appendages. Presumably if you have a Ring of FoM a Torc of Poison immunity, and a thing you smash to your forehead of Mindblank he gives up, goes home, and cries and ocean of tears into the ocean about how mean high level characters are. While wishing you didn’t have Mindblank so he could us his Nightmare at will SLA. Also he has Gate once a day, so if he really wanted to, under dumb 3.5 rules, he could just gate you into his lair under the see, target dispel you, and then grapple and drown eat you. But please don’t do that DMs, Gate is stupid. Presumably he is supposed to use that like most demons use their summons, but he can gate in a 40HD creature and knows everything about the Abyss, so you probably shouldn’t do that either before he starts pulling out Balors with 20 Wizard levels and practiced Spellcaster for all their feats.

Fluff wise Dagon is apparently pretty interesting. Dagon is the oldest of the Demon Lords, because apparently the Madness not subtype subtype demons used to run the Abyss before the Tanar’ri existed, but then they were displaced because apparently the Abyss consciousness was right that Electricity Immunity was more powerful than Mind affecting immunity and madness aura and true seeing, because the Tanar’ri waged a war and beat up all the not subtype subtypes. This has not been mentioned anywhere else in the book so far, but apparently all this happened according to Dagon’s Lore, while Dagon sort of watched and didn’t give a shit. Also, some bonus power creep for Wizards! If you want knowledge of the history of the Abyss, you can talk to Dagon with Contact Other Plane, you take a -2 penalty to the check and treat him as a Greater Deity, so it is harder to talk to this asshole than actual Greater Deities, but if your DM let’s you take 10 the check is still piss easy, and you might be able to cast some buff spells and succeed on a 1 anyway, so who cares. On all subjects except history of the abyss, he is a demi deity, but on just that one subject, he knows more than Greater Deities, because you treat him like a Greater Deity that always knows the answer and lies less often than a normal Greater Deity, (treat all don’t knows as true answer). It doesn’t technically have anything to do with the history of the Abyss, but I want to ask him how he feels about writers that don’t know what true seeing does.

Demogorgon:
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CR 23 Big Ass Lizard Bodied Tentacle Armed Two Baboon Headed Demon Prince. Explicitly a Prince, like Dagon, even though we were told no Princes because Chaos. So Princes currently outnumber lords, but whatever. First off, I want to tell you that this guy has the entire Spring Attack chain, and also the entire Whirlwind attack Chain for his 15ft reach. Also Alertness, because of course he does. These authors basically just didn’t want to even think about feats, is what I am learning. But he does have double actions, and fast healing to make his kiting you with Greater Teleport even more annoying. He doesn’t do much damage with his attacks, but one attack does negative levels, and two attacks do save against a maybe disease maybe not effect that does Con damage, and just being within 30ft subjects you to two different gaze effects that are both mind affecting, or he can use both heads to gaze at the same target and use a different mind affecting effect. I wonder why Orcus doesn’t rule the Demons as a Demon King, because every one of these fucks basically has no offense against any undead at all. As a player, if you aren’t undead, you can just Create a Magic Tattoo, cast Deathknell, put on a Ring of Enduring Arcana, and activate some prayer beads, then polymorph your fighter into an undead and hand him a silver Githrazi sword and exterminate all the pits of the Abyss at once, because Demgorgon can do jack shit all to someone immune to ability damage, negative levels, and mind affecting effects. At least you had to cast Freedom of Movement on the fighter before he fought Dagon, but Demogorgon is just another guy who has Greater Dispel Magic at will, and four hundred different ways of losing a fight to a single undead if that doesn’t work. Also he astral projects, it is official, you get promoted to Demon Lord by having the ability to Astral Project. I guess that explains how the people who lose to a Balor got the job.

Demogorgon’s two heads are both buddies with Dagon and enemies of Orcus, but they hate each other. This will never matter to PCs, because they can agree on their desire to murder your face. Also they invented retrievers, so good on them, I wonder who took credit and who did most of the work? If only you could Polymorph Any Object yourself at CL 30 into an undead and ignore him completely. Oh wait, you totally can. Next!

Fraz-Urb’Luu:
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CR 21 Big Gargoyle Fuck. If this asshole isn’t the boss of all Nabassu, I’m going to be pissed. Wow. This guy is more troll than the invisible headache ghost. He has Summon Monster VII at will so it probably spends every round summoning earth elementals from behind a stone wall and telling them to attack. Secondly, it has the standard ability to summon demons, in this case a Nalfeshnee. And thirdly, once per day as a free action it can summon any other Demon Lord. Just because. He can’t control the Demon Lord, but he can make it think that you summoned him, and he can teleport out of there as a standard action. So every day, Demagorgon lives his life wondering if today this fucker is going to troll the shit out of him AGAIN. In combat, he astral projects (because Demon Lord) has Greater Dispel Magic, and grapples things with an honestly pretty shit grapple check for a CR 21. But he is immune to “most Divination effects” whatever the fuck that means. So basically, this guy astral projects around trolling people with summons and does absolutely nothing else. He has the Augment Summoning feat, in case you weren’t aware you should be summoning every round. His described tactics are to summon troll people, except that if he sees a human, he wades into melee because he hates them so much… what a fucking idiot. If reduced to less than 100HP, he summons some other Demon Lord and then leaves.

His history is that he got imprisoned on the material plane by some archmage for 200 years and lost a cool artifact staff in the very recent past. I feel no sympathy, he apparently decided from this to use stupid tactics against all humans as punishment for one asshole tricking him. What a fucking idiot.

Graz’zy:
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CR 22, also a Prince. This guy looks like a slightly menacing fawn. Dagon was prince of seas, Demagorgon was prince of Demons, this guy is apparently prince of a three whole levels of the infinite levels of the abyss that he rules, what a badass. Unlike every other Demon Lord, and unlike Balor’s this guy is sitting on a pile of phat lewt. He has a +5 Acidic Burst Sword, a +5 Mithril Gamored Full Plate, a +5 Heavy Steel Shield, and a Major Cloak of Displacement. After you account for the fact that Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon exist, that is almost 20,000gp worth of items. I guess it is good to be the kingPRINCE I definitely didn’t imply organization here, even though he explicitly rules a kingdom and is therefore definitely a king, and they even imply that everyone else is also ruling a kingdom by saying that he rules the largest kingdom. But what the fuck ever. Unlike other Demon Princes (yes, now the fluff text is explicitly calling them princes instead of Lords, fuck if I know why they tried to distinguish them in the first place) this asshole apparently pays attention to what happens on the material plane. Apparently he is a the fuck demon, because he gets all the succubbi and lilittus and has human female clerics attend his every need, also once he was captured by some Witch Queen, and they have kid from all the fucking, and eventually he tried to break free and she defeated him imprisoning him on his home plane, but then he caught her, and raped her a bunch, but maybe she liked it, and then she escaped and now he rules three layers of the abyss, but he might be imprisoned on his home plane still or he might not. Which is too bad, because as the ruler of three planes, he was the first guy who could just build a fortress not on his home plane, and therefore not be in fear of permanent real death every second he is in his stronghold.

For combat he has Trap the Soul 1/day as an SLA, no idea how the fuck that spell is supposed to work when you ignore the material component, but fuck it. He can actually beat a fighter polymorphed into an undead some of the time, so progress! Also he can dominate person, 3 times a day, and use four other mind affecting spells at will, and cast Greater Dispel Magic and Astral Projection at will. Man, CL 30 spells just fuck the shit out of Demon Princes. Also he can single target fear people as a free action once per round, so good for the writers who managed to not give a free action effect without realizing that you get infinite free actions a round. Although, then I have to take it right back because they fucking advise you that he targets it against spellcasters, you know, the ones with the good will saves. Fuck. Also he has True Seeing even though he doesn’t have the subtype that grants True Seeing, probably all the other demon princes and lords did too. No word on whether this one lets him see who has the most buff spells cast though. The reason I haven’t mentioned his combat aside from his SLAs is because he has the simplest dumbest attack routine of a poorly made level 20 fighter. This fuck is basically trap the soul 1/day and hope they don’t have Mindblank at CL 30. But he explicitly has material plane spies, so he probably knows your name for that +2 to the save DC on the spell that puts your soul in a gem that doesn’t exist. He can also summon a Balor.

Juiblex:
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CR 19, so this Demon Lord is weaker than Balors apparently. Also it looks like 14 Yochlol’s walked into each other and got stuck. Basically, this is a puzzle monster where you see a giant pile of green goo with eyes, and you have to figure out that you don’t want to touch it, or hit it with weapons, and you do want to cast Acid Immunity. It is immune to Cold, Acid, Electricity, and Bludgeoning Weapons, it does acid damage to anything “metal or wood” that hits it and if it hits you it melts your armor and clothes. So you need that Acid Immunity spell to not lose all your gear, and you need to take advantage of the fact that the authors are unimaginative and didn’t think about dragon tooth swords or stone arrow heads, and you can just stab or shoot it to death with a weirdo weapon. Also ooze traits from the ooze demon, big surprise. Also throws out green slime, so good thing you are polymorphed into an undead. SLA wise we’ve got the standard mind affecting hold and symbol of insanity, the blindsight replacing True Seeing on the Fuck You Invisibility slot, Astral Projection and Greater Dispel at will, and a new spell called Despoil once a day. Spoiler alert, it is an extremely poorly worded spell that has a range of touch but an area of 2000ft spread, in which you make a save or take 1d4 str damage. Plant creatures save or die. So basically, you give no shits at all. Also it has a casting time of one minute. Also the puzzle ooze flies with fly at will SLA and can summon either a hezrou or a alkilith which is from the Fiend Folio. No idea what that one does off the top of my head and not looking it up. Can also summon 1d2 Black puddings, not that you care, because they are still Black Puddings and you already figured out the first puzzle ooze.

Lore: Everyone hates the ooze that destroys things by touching. The ooze hates everything and everyone and just wants to destroy things by touching them. The other demon lords pretend they don’t know the ooze, and wish it would die, but no one wants to take time out of their day to kill the ooze, so the ooze continues floating around the 222 layer of the infinite layers of the abyss being annoying. Also, my phone is ringing, because the authors told me all that over the phone, just like they did the hapless intern who had to type this entry. Could we promote the fucking Dancing Vorpal Greataxe Hyena with Snake Neck guy to Demon Lord, grant him Astral Projection and Greater Dispel at will, and then replace this stupid ooze with him?

Kostchtchie:
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CR 21 This guy is just a big ass giant who was given electricity immunity, True seeing ability, Astral Projection, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Teleport at will, as a giant he already had ice storm at will. Also he has 425HP and DR 20/cold iron and good, so you will get bored before he dies. Immune to critical hits for some reason. Smacks you around with an Icy burst maul. If he crits you then you save against stun. So basically, worse than a War Troll. Can throw and catch rocks. Can summon a Goristo, because you really needed a second bid dumb brute that can’t fly to bother you while you are trying to kill more important demon lords. He has an ability called Rage, which says he enters a fenzy, no idea if he is supposed to be able to use SLAs, but the tactics section says that he often forgets that he has them anyway, and that when raging he is too dumb to run away with his Greater Teleport. So how the fuck is this asshole alive? I hope his fluff talks about how none of the other demon lords care about him because he’s so dumb and useless.

So basically, this asshole rules level 23 of the abyss, and all the other demons are afraid of making him mad. Not sure why when they can fly over him spamming their hold monster SLAs on him while he throws rocks that fail to penetrate their DR, but whatever. His sole goal in life is to be revered as the only god by all frost giants, so he travels the planes finding frost giants who don’t currently revere him, killing their leaders, and then demanding they worship him, then leading them on crusades till they all die. Also his realm on the 23rd layer of the abyss is completely under his command, because lolchaos. I don’t know why anyone thought this was a good idea for a Demon Lord. He speaks giant, cares only about frost giants, and wants to be worshipped by frost giants. This has nothing to do with demons, and you could have replaced this fucking “Demom” Lord with a Frost Giant and said, “And there is an asshole Frost Giant God of War who lives on the 23rd layer of the abyss for some reason.” I wish this was the dumbest lore for a demon lord, but the ooze exists.

Malcanthet:
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Oh goody, a CR 21 Succubus, this is definitely going to be either way too powerful or complete garbage depending on what minions you give her. Hey you know how I make jokes about these monsters being 100% useless against undead? Apparently the authors reached through time and space to know I would make that criticism and troll me by hitting every single type of immunity that undead have. She has 10d6 SA to go with her poison that does wisdom damage and then dominates people as the dominate person spell, so I guess non humanoids ignore the secondary effect? She has mass charm monster, mind fog, because of course, charm monster, greater command, disguise self, all the mandatory demon lord SLAs at will. She has a 30ft not at all mind affecting gaze effect that gives a -2 penalty to everything if you fail the will save. After you fail the save, she can, as a free action, use Dominate Monster on you once per round. This is a special permanent dominate effect that can’t be dispelled, but she can only have one at a time. So basically, you should cast Mindblank on the big fatass fighter she carries around in her pocket. Also if for whatever reason you cast an enchantment spell against her that doesn’t penetrate SR, it rebounds on you. Presumably if she forgets to lower SR her allies accidentally end up with Heroism cast on themselves sometimes. She can summon Succubi or Lilitu, so basically nothing that actually is worth fighting in a fight.

Her title is “Queen of the Succubi” because remember, they are too chaotic to have kings, except that one guy who expressly rules a kingdom, and too chaotic to even have princes, except the every single demon lord who’s a prince, but queens are totally fine for some reason. Her layer of the abyss is a giant succubi harem for everyone to fuck roll in until they go mad. She even has special Lilitu Bards to sing pretty songs for the writhing masses. Because she is the the female sex Demon Lord and our first woman (Even the ooze is explicitly male, though I refuse to recognize it as gendered, or in fact, a Demon Lord), she has had sex with all the other Demons Lords, except the fawn incubus one for some reason?, who she apparently spurned, and now hates her. Also the Hyena one later killed some mortals she liked, so she doesn’t sleep with him anymore. I do wonder why she sleeps with two baboon headed demons, but rejected the most objectively human looking one. I ship her with Dagon, because Sharktopus monsters need love too.

Obox-Ob:
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CR 22 deformed centipede thing from the first episode of inuyasha. He looks like madness, so if you fail a mind affecting will save then you are no save shaken whenever you are within 30ft of a vermin. This is permanent until someone casts heal on you because you are a 18+ level character. So I guess if you aren’t immune to mind affecting save effects or fear effects, you will totally care when he casts quickened Giant Vermin or Giant Vermin at will. On the other hand, since you did cast MindBlank at CL 30, and you are flying, you don’t give a fuck. Also if you die to his poison you become a CR 3 Monstrous Scorpion under his control. Why not giant? Because conservation of mass, that is why! No really, it is pretty dumb, but it is also an ability that will never come up, because he can summon infinite colossal ones with his SLA that ignores material components even though the material components are the small vermin that get turned into big vermin. Also, his tongue implants Raw Chaos in you, the effect of which is to give you 1d4 negative levels per round for eternity. Presumably being immune to negative levels at this time of the implantation doesn’t even stop the implantation, so if you have deathward cast, you need to get someone to cast specifically dispel chaos (not even wish or miracle can save you) before it wears off. Of course, the implantation itself is a Fort save that should be able to effect objects, but doesn’t explicitly say it does, so… Yay for being undead! Seriously, I’m going to go look up what the best undead to shapechange into are.

Apparently Obox-Ob used to be the Prince of Demons in the before time, when only not subtype subtypes ruled. Then the Queen of Chaos killed him and gave his title to some Wolf Spider, who presumably lost it to Demagorgon at some point. Also no word in this book on where the Queen of Chaos is now, but presumably you can ask Dagon. Probably she left because everyone was too chaotic to obey a queen, except the succubi apparently. Anyway, one of his aspects hid somewhere, and that is his current incarnation. He tries to regain his old power so that he can kill Demagorgon, regain his throne, and exterminate all Tanar’ri. No word as yet on how the abyssal consciousness that explicitly decided to move on from madness monsters and to only make electric immune monsters going forward feels about this. Or why this fucker continues to exist. Also he is called the Prince of Vermin and rules over Ant-Scorpos only. So basically, this is the part where they admit that the demon entry they wrote earlier is just the thinnest possible covering over a vermin monster ever.

Orcus:
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A CR 22 Balor with a fancy wand, an infinity gauntlet, and nipple rings. Prince of the Undead. Which by all rights should make him undisputed King of all Demons. His wand is an +6 Unholy Anarchic Heavy Mace that forces a DC 25 Fort or die on all non outsiders as a necromantic death effect. So this can’t be how he rules the undead, since they are all immune. I think it does pierce all DR except DR/Epic because of that +6 though. He can summon a Maralith, and he can also summon wights, spectres, or morgs. So basically low level shit you don’t care about. He has a poison sting. He has the regular Demon Lord SLAs, also Command Undead at will, so he can at least rule all the undead that a level 3 Wizard can also rule. He has enervation at will, quickened 3/day, finger of death 3/day, and wail of the banshee 1/day. Yep. The Prince of the Undead is a giant fucking pussy who still can’t beat an undead bruiser with fly cast on him at CL 30. But hey, at least I know why Orcus should be King of all the Demons. He is immune to Ability Drain, Critical Hits, Death Effects, Electricity, Energy Drain, Mind Affecting spells and abilities, Negative energy, Paralysis, Poison, and Sneak Attacks. For those keeping track at home, that means he is immune to every single thing that every single other Demon Lord can do. Also he can be killed by a sufficiently metamagiced Ray of Stupidity or Flensing or Shivering Touch cast after Assay Resistance, because he isn’t immune to ability damage if it isn’t poison.

Orcus was murdered, and then came back to life and was called Tenebrous for a time, and now he rules in the Abyss again. He basically has a permanent ongoing war with the two actually most powerful Demon Lords besides himself, Graz’zt and Demagorgon. He apparently has armies of undead and Nabassu under his command, but no actual demons aside from those. He’s sort of winning on both fronts, and maybe his recent death and rebirth is the only reason he has all those immunities. Still no idea why he isn’t immune to ability damage, but whatever. No word on whether or not Binders get to keep binding Tenebrous now that he has returned, maybe so, since the whole point was that the vestiges don’t really exist in our realm. Who cares, binders suck.

Pale Night:
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CR 21. Another Madness subtype, this one is incorporeal though, too bad, this could have been the first possession demon subtype Demon Lord. This one is apparently a sexy lady under a sheet demon, and is called the mother of demons. Taking that whole ghost thing too far aren’t you Jacobs? She does 2d6 Charisma Drain with each attack, but only one attack per round. Has spring attack because why not spend 5 feats to get the same effect as Flyby Attack. She doesn’t have a form of madness like everything else of her type, because the shroud covers her and you can’t see how terrible she looks. But she can, as a full round action, suppress the shroud forcing everyone within 30ft (because I guess people 35ft away can’t see her?) to make a pretty high fort save or die. But it is a mind affecting fear death effect, so you probably will just wonder why she wasted a full round action doing nothing. Also she has the same way too high DC on a 3/day temporal stasis that can’t be dispelled. This would actually be threatening if I wasn’t committed to my plan to Polymorph Any Object at CL 30 into an undead and then murder every demon lord, because for some reason Temporal Stasis doesn’t specify that it can effect objects, because undead are outside time in addition to being not alive apparently. Oh, and 1/day at a slightly lower DC that immediately becomes the exact same DC if she knows your name, she can cast Imprisonment. So good for her, she can do something to undead, someone will have to cast freedom after you murder her as a party of undead. Also in addition to her normal Demon Lord SLAs, she has confusion at will, and Magic Jar at will, because we are really committed to giving demons the ability to lose to undead in a myriad of different ways that could beat non undead things. The very first sentence of her tactics is about how she prefers to use summons. It also talks about how she uses Magic Jar to possess summons and her shroud counts as the jar. No statement about how to destroy the Shroud or anything, but whatever. Oh by the way, you notice how I didn’t tell you what she can summon? That’s because she has no ability to summon demons at all. Don’t feel bad if you missed that, clearly the authors and editors did.

She lives in a giant Bone castle on the same layer as Baphomet, and she doesn’t give a shit about him or anyone else. Also she may be the mother of all Tanar’ri or of all the Demon Lords. But no one knows and it is shrouded in mystery… unless you can cast contact other plane and ask Dagon, because remember, he knows everything about the history of the abyss, and is uncommonly talkative about it. But your DM will have to make it up, because the book doesn’t tell you.

Pazuzu:
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Oh goody, the Kobold Paladin Pun-Pun one. Though of course, Pun-Pun doesn’t work, the part about getting him to wish you up a way to get more wishes surely works right? No, it doesn’t, that surprises me not at all. CR 22 Bird Demon Thing. He has the usual mandatory Demon Lord SLAs, then he has plane shift 3/day, so he has no excuse at all for launching his astral projections from his home layer of the abyss, and wish once per day. He’s a non-subtype subtype creature, and he’s not a Tanar’ri, but he is immune to electricity anyway, because fuck you that’s why. I don’t really care, the writers inability to understand the rules is probably the most chaotic thing about these demons at this point. If you say his name three times anywhere in the multiverse, he can use detect good, detect law, detect thoughts, and tongues to examine you for the next minute. I have no idea how the writers think tongues is going to help him examine you, but they do. Remember how the not subtype subtype is so horrific to look at that you go permanently mad from looking at them? The writers forgot that part too. Instead evil aligned creatures with a natural fly speed have to make a will save to attack him if they are within 120ft. Pretty unimpressive. This is apparently why he is called “Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms” I fucking wish I made even a single word of that up. He really has the dumbest possible name, that also tells you there are kingdoms, and he’s a fucking king. LolChoas is getting more and more painful by the word. Also he has two breath weapons, one is really just summoning swarms, but they all have to be touching either him or each other, the other is a poison based breath that does 18d6 acid damage (that you don’t have to take if you are immune to poison? It isn’t very clear) and also 2d4 Str damage, with 2d4 secondary con damage. Presumably the poison tag is supposed to be for just this part. Also, both breath weapons are on the same CD if you care, which you really don’t. He can summon 1d6 Fiendish Rocs or harpy archers. Sure whatever. Also he can summon a Balor or 1d4+2 vrocks, so he carries a Dance of Ruin in his pocket for what little that is worth.

Apparently above where I made fun of them for treating him like a Tanar’ri instead of an not subtype monster? It’s because they left a stupid type on his subtype entry. The very first sentence of his fluff is about how he is the oldest Tanar’ri prince, so sure. No wait, I take that back, because the very first sentence of his history is about he was one of the more powerful obyrith lords (that’s the not subtype subtype). WTF! So apparently he is the missing link of evolution in the evolutionless abyss creation engine, because he transformed from one into the other. STOP BEING A CREATIONIST JAMES JACOBS! Anyway, no one hates him and everyone loves him, except this one Demon Lord not otherwise mentioned in this book (she’s a queen though, because all women are queens or mothers apparently, but there are no princesses and there are no kings), and he has her trapped forever somehow. So yeah, probably just don’t mess with the asshole with Wish as an SLA. He rules the 503rd layer of the abyss, but he spends all his time on the 1st layer, because he’s not a fucking idiot. Also he does his wish granting thing just to get people hooked to his aid, so on top of Pun-Pun not working because Sarruk rules bullshit, it also doesn’t work because Pazuzu would never allow you to wish for anything that would let you get wishes without his help. Wherever they got their idea about him granting wishes to Paladins to corrupt them, it wasn’t this section, so I’ll probably find something later.

Yeenoghu:
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CR 20 Prince of Gnolls. So basically he’s a Gnoll that has the Tanar’ri subtype for some reason and is CR 20. Yeenoghu flies with a fly SLA, and he casts Power Word Stun 3/day, that is literally all you care about. He doesn’t even have a better full attack routine than any of the other demons who have actual save or die stuff. Oh, you should probably not get hit by him, because if you are he rolls a 1d3, and on a 2 you have to save versus confusion, and on a 3 you have to do that and save versus paralyze. But its mind affecting for the first and a fort save for the second, so actually, you probably don’t care. He can summon some ghouls, you know, CR 1 useless shit. This isn’t even worth a standard action. They could have just written ghasts instead and at least they would have had the stench. Also he can summon 2d6 5th level gnoll fighters that no one will even notice in the entire fight. Also he can summon 1d4 Bulezaus or 1d2+1 Vrocks. This guy is more interesting to fight than the Frost Giant probably. Some small praise that.

Aside from apparently pissing off the Queen of the Succubi by killing her favorite humans, this guy doesn’t even fight the other Demon Lords, he is too much a bitch, so instead he just attacks non Demon Lords and their holdings. Presumably to interrupt their attempts to Learn how to cast Astral Projection at will as an SLA, and therefore ascend. Also he once beat up the King of Ghouls who used to serve Orcus and now serves him. Because the Abyss is fucking lousy with Kings, but is too chaotic to take orders from Demon Kings. He does allegedly attack the CR 20 Bull Demon Prince that is weaker than a Balor. So basically, these two know their place, and it is last, and they fight over it while all the less shitty Demon Lords fight each other or don’t.

Zuggtmoy:
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CR 21 Lady of Fungi. She apparently lives on the same layer as the Ooze, and hates it because it melts her stuff sometimes, but not enough to actually bother dealing with it. She’s supposed to be a fungus demon, but based on all those tentacles, I feel like she is stepping on my man Dagon’s turf. She’s immune to acid for no other reason than that she lives on the plane with the Ooze, and so she just learned to be able to kill the Ooze without giving a shit. She gets all the Plant immunities, but without the pesky being subject to Despoil effect of being an actual plant, because sure, why not. She tries to grapple eat you, because of course she does, she a tentacle monster. Also she has implosion 1/day, 3/day polymorph into fungus, and wall of thorns at will. So if you became undead and cast FoM, you have to vaguely worry about making a really low DC fort save, unless you also cast Shapechange, in which case even that doesn’t matter.

Apparently she was behind the Temple of Elemental Evil. Good for her I guess? As above, she sort of ignores/doesn’t fight the dumb Ooze, I wish her luck. She should just go murder the thing and save me the trouble.

A Summary of the Demon Lords as Adversaries

Okay, all my kidding aside, yes, obviously a smart Wizard who knows what he is doing can walk into the Abyss can kill every one of these fucks, but that is true of everything. There was some variety in the types of attacks, even if in general it felt like every single one of these had a bunch of useless mind affecting effects that any party would ignore. Ultimately, they aren’t terrible. If you were designing 14 CR 19-23 monsters you could do a lot worse, especially being “limited” to Demons. I say limited, because there was definitely a Giant, and Ooze, a Plant, a Vermin, and a Ghost in there, but whatever. All the same, they did feel for the most part pretty samey. Dagon and Demogorgon stand out as the two that don’t duplicate the exact same fighting style as everyone else. Also the Ooze, but by now we know how I feel about that.

The main problem is that they all have attack routines that look pretty similar, pretty similar giant piles of HP, and pretty similar SLAs. Seriously, every single one of these people has Astral Projection, Telekinesis, and Greater Dispel Magic. Also a bunch of things you don’t care about like Desecrate and Unhallow, or that are quintessentially demon, like Greater Teleport and Unholy Blight I get that they were trying to make them compete at high levels, so they went down a checklist, but you couldn’t find some way to create some variation? Someone couldn’t have a dispelling aura or dispelling punch? Every one of these people has True Seeing as an ability that isn’t even listed as Supernatural or and SLA, it is just part of the “senses” part of their entry, next to their spot and listen except the Ooze which has blindsight. One of them has tremorsense 240ft, but she also has True Seeing. You could just give one of them Blindsight 300ft and a high enough will save to win any interaction with illusions, it would be nice to have some small variation in how you deal with each creature. You could give the humanoid one a bow for god sakes it wouldn’t be the end of the world. Also, despite giving them all tons of powerful abilities, they seem to have a really small idea of what level 20 play should be like. The number of 30ft gaze attacks I saw made me cry. I promise, at level 20 your PCs will be able to handle it is if your ghost demon’s mind affecting fear death effect gaze attack works on anyone within 300ft when she spends a full round action to activate it. You don’t have to limit it to a distance so short that people in charge range as level 1 characters are still well outside the radius of the effect. Ultimately, if you are just going to use one Demon Lord, or maybe two, there is enough going on with each one that it is worth it, but for an Abyssal Invasion, it just doesn’t feel up to snuff. There are some okay plot seeds here, but nothing to write home about.

Also, on the subject of saves... Apparently the writers had no idea that if you are going to hand out a bunch of save or die/lose effects that the save DC should be within a range for CR. Because there are monsters with DC 19 save or dies, and there are monsters with DC 37 save or loses, and those monsters are the same CR.

Well that is the terror of the Demon Lords/Princes/Queens/Mothers/Fucking Ooze. Next time I promise for real, we will get player options. We are already more than half way done with the book.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Ancient History »

I vaguely recall that they might have stolen the art - but sadly, not the fluff or mechanics or associated prestige classes - for these Demon Lords from a series of Dragon Magazine articles.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

I feel like the Den should get together and redo the Demon Lords so they are credible threats.

Also, does this mean you'll be moving on to the Devils next?
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Post by Kaelik »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:I feel like the Den should get together and redo the Demon Lords so they are credible threats.

Also, does this mean you'll be moving on to the Devils next?
Well I haven't done the player part yet, this was a two book series. Fiendish Codex I Hordes of the Abyss, and Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of Hell.

This is a double feature, so after I finish Abyss, I will move on to Hell.
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Post by Koumei »

Clearly the Chaos of the Abyss explains the writing and editing.

Anyway, is there a vague level range where you think most of those Lords/Princes/Mothers/Queens/Grand Dukes would be an actual challenge yet not impossible? Like, could you see them being in any way not a waste of paper?
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Post by Wiseman »

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Liber_Demo ... rcebook%29

Somebodies already done a rewrite of at least the demon book. There's even stats for demon lords at the bottom of the page.

Though I have been thinking of doing some stats for demon lords myself...
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Post by Kaelik »

Koumei wrote:Clearly the Chaos of the Abyss explains the writing and editing.

Anyway, is there a vague level range where you think most of those Lords/Princes/Mothers/Queens/Grand Dukes would be an actual challenge yet not impossible? Like, could you see them being in any way not a waste of paper?
Honestly, they are really not good challenges ever. Fighting infinite Astral Projections who can Greater Teleport at will is going to be a hassle for anyone. If you don't have the immunities you need ,these people are going to wreck you, if you do have the immunities, they are going to Greater Dispel you every round until you don't. And many of them can summon Balors who cast Blasphemy at CL 20, so you basically can't get below level 15 without adding an entire new immunity you need to get it.

There just isn't a lot of middle ground between "Have the immunities at CL 30" and "Lose" I would recommend Dagon or Graz'zt or Demogorgon as the ideal choices, and send them at a really well optimized level 15 party or a shitty level 20 party and it can be okay. Demogorgon can trigger enough different immunities to be a reasonable fight, and he has double actions. Dagon also triggers a separate immunity set with his grappling and being huge and aquatic, and you can theoretically pick any appropriate creature to gate, Graz'zt can just insta Gem someone, and then he is a fighter with SLAs that you can rework to not be shit, so you could make him a bow user that shoots people while a Balor fights them in melee.
Wiseman wrote:http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Liber_Demo ... rcebook%29

Somebodies already done a rewrite of at least the demon book. There's even stats for demon lords at the bottom of the page.

Though I have been thinking of doing some stats for demon lords myself...
Those Demon Lords look like they are trying to be for Epic games, I looked at three of them, and one of them had Alter Reality, I'll pass.
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Re: OSSR: Fiendish Codex Double Feature (3.5)

Post by FatR »

Koumei wrote: For what it's worth, which books actually state that you do get alignment-based rewards instead of a lame Christian afterlife?
None state either. There is no rewards because there is no afterlife. Whatever goes to power Outer Planes after your death is not "you" in any meaningful sense of the word but only your energy imprint that does not preserve any of your memories or personality beyond general alignment inclination, and that is very much mortal in any case. DnDverse since Planescape is utterly materialist and atheist once you get past bells and whistles. The only thing to look forward is oblivion. So, unless your GM forgot to ban 3.X-style Reincarnate, you might as well do whatever the fuck you want in the time you've got.
Last edited by FatR on Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Aryxbez »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:I feel like the Den should get together and redo the Demon Lords so they are credible threats.
As been already stated, there has been one by ThunderGodCid kinda, I also made a thread about it a few years ago. I personally quite like the Demons, from what I could tell, they made the demons credible threats for [Tome] PC's, and even the Bruiser-like Demon Lords are pretty cool.

So Kaelik, no love for Liber-styled interpretation of Dagon?
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Post by Kaelik »

Aryxbez wrote:So Kaelik, no love for Liber-styled interpretation of Dagon?
He has Alter Reality, a fuck off huge pile of HP, arbitrary immunity to everything in the game because he is "godlike," an enslave ability that isn't mind affecting and can't be negated in any way, can spend 50HP to counterspell any spell as a free action outside his turn, so basically, best case scenario your spell does 50hp damage, He has a custom level 7 spell that is dumb as shit, because it makes people helpless for 1d4 rounds on a passed saving throw, which means that it is a no save die spell of the highest order, and the only possibly immunity in the game is being undead or construct (because it is SR: No just to be a fucking dick), and if you aren't undead, having a purely mental action teleport to escape, but you are still helpless somewhere, and Dagon knows that, and probably knows where with his omniscience. Also as a swift action he fires a lazer that deletes your spell slots, and he is always subject to spell turning.

and worst of all "Dagon is constantly under the effects of a foresight spell (caster level 23rd). At the beginning of each encounter, Dagon knows precisely all information about the opponents he is facing down to the absolute minutia of their lives, allowing him to plan and adjust his tactics accordingly. He also knows the effects and charges (if necessary) of each and every magical item the opponents possess, even artifacts."

So basically, the authors are the worse kinds of people, people who play all the monsters like blithering idiots, then complain that D&D is too easy, and so the monsters have to be buffed, and then they still play them like blithering idiots. An even remotely competent Dagon can TPK every party that ever existed that isn't epic without using any of his minions or infinite minion gaining abilities.

For fucks sake, he has Gate 1/day and an ability that makes people his slaves without being mind affecting just by sight, and you aren't immune for 24 hours afterwords. He can just gate in something, and look at it every round until it becomes his permanent slave, and then do the same thing again the next day, this guy has his own free infinite minion chain of monsters of higher CR than him becoming his slave.

Seriously FOR FUCKS SAKE, No save helpless? How is that a thing anyone wrote without killing themselves afterword?
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ishy »

Kaelik wrote:Juiblex:

and a new spell called Despoil once a day. Spoiler alert, it is an extremely poorly worded spell that has a range of touch but an area of 2000ft spread, in which you make a save or take 1d4 str damage. Plant creatures save or die. So basically, you give no shits at all. Also it has a casting time of one minute.
I'm guessing the intern never played D&D.
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Post by Kaelik »

ishy wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Juiblex:

and a new spell called Despoil once a day. Spoiler alert, it is an extremely poorly worded spell that has a range of touch but an area of 2000ft spread, in which you make a save or take 1d4 str damage. Plant creatures save or die. So basically, you give no shits at all. Also it has a casting time of one minute.
I'm guessing the intern never played D&D.
srd wrote:A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
Yes, that is the reason I said it was poorly written.
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Post by RobbyPants »

I wonder what "range: touch" is supposed to mean in that context. Does it mean that the 2000 range centers on the caster, or that it affects everyone if it touches them?
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Post by Kaelik »

RobbyPants wrote:I wonder what "range: touch" is supposed to mean in that context. Does it mean that the 2000 range centers on the caster, or that it affects everyone if it touches them?
Well you see, normal plants can't grow in the area forever, because the duration is instantaneous, and so the idea is that you touch a place on the ground, and then everything within 2000ft of that is a no plant zone.

But of course, it is a minute long casting spell, you could just give it a range of long and the world would not end.
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