Paradox Buys White Wolf from CCP

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Why do Dark Ages 20 Vampires have Virtues and Vices like they were nWoD characters? Dark Ages Vampires have three Virtues depending on what Road they follow. There is no "indulging" of Self Control or Courage. They don't have Vices at all.

Why can't Onyx Path at least pretend to write mechanics that interact with the system they are supposedly using?

-Username17
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

FrankTrollman wrote:Why do Dark Ages 20 Vampires have Virtues and Vices like they were nWoD characters? Dark Ages Vampires have three Virtues depending on what Road they follow. There is no "indulging" of Self Control or Courage. They don't have Vices at all.

Why can't Onyx Path at least pretend to write mechanics that interact with the system they are supposedly using?

-Username17
It's not nWoD virtues and vices, they are talking about specifically Ravnos behavior. Like "Stealing" vice and "Save cats stuck in the trees" virtue. The past incarnation of Ravnos only had the "vice" part available to them. Or you could buy a 3-point merit and be a Gypsie from the Gypsie book.
Phralmulo wrote:You were Embraced from within Rom, from one of the families of power. Because of your heritage, you may be able to regain Blood Affinities by feeding on Rom and may begin with Abilities or Backgrounds available only to Gypsy characters. In addition, phralmulo characters need not pick a specific crime as their weakness; the phralmulo show a general (but compulsive) contempt and disregard for all the laws of the gaje. Note: Without this Merit, a Ravnos player character is assumed to be georgio.
Last edited by Longes on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Longes wrote:It's not nWoD virtues and vices, they are talking about specifically Ravnos behavior. Like "Stealing" vice and "Save cats stuck in the trees" virtue. The past incarnation of Ravnos only had the "vice" part available to them.
I'm trying to get that reading out of what they wrote, and I just can't. The "something darker" is never actually referred to as a "vice" in the text. And the "virtuous act" is not itself a virtue, but an action that is itself virtuous. So whether they are using gamist terminology or natural English, the sentence is complete gibberish.

What obviously happened is that someone forgot they weren't writing for nWoD, wrote up a thing about how Ravnos have to make an extra roll to prevent themselves from doing their nWoD Virtue/Vice thing, and then someone noticed that that didn't make any sense (because V20 characters do not have those things), and did a half-assed rewrite to reference some traits that V20 characters actually have (like Self-Control). Because there is no way that being incapable of resisting performing an action constitutes "indulging in her virtue."

-Username17
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Longes wrote:It's not nWoD virtues and vices, they are talking about specifically Ravnos behavior. Like "Stealing" vice and "Save cats stuck in the trees" virtue. The past incarnation of Ravnos only had the "vice" part available to them.
I'm trying to get that reading out of what they wrote, and I just can't. The "something darker" is never actually referred to as a "vice" in the text. And the "virtuous act" is not itself a virtue, but an action that is itself virtuous. So whether they are using gamist terminology or natural English, the sentence is complete gibberish.

What obviously happened is that someone forgot they weren't writing for nWoD, wrote up a thing about how Ravnos have to make an extra roll to prevent themselves from doing their nWoD Virtue/Vice thing, and then someone noticed that that didn't make any sense (because V20 characters do not have those things), and did a half-assed rewrite to reference some traits that V20 characters actually have (like Self-Control). Because there is no way that being incapable of resisting performing an action constitutes "indulging in her virtue."

-Username17
You put too much faith into writing talent of DA:V20 writers. They fucking forgot that Larceny is not a skill in DA, so the rules section constantly talks about Larceny. The rules for using Instinct to Ride Frenzy have a pointer to the page which you are currently reading and which doesn't actually have rules for using Instinct to Ride Frenzy. There are references to merits and flaws that aren't in the book.
What I think happened, is that someone got fed up with Ravnos flaw being called racist, and decided to "fix" it by allowing Ravnos to obssess over a "good" behavior, as well as something criminal. And because that person had no writing talent he called good behavior "virtue" and bad behavior "vice".
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Well, that is at least capturing the oWoD flavor. Or really, the whole White Wolf aesthetic for most of their existence. Mummy has extra virtues and no explanation of how that interacts with the three virtue model of the version of Vampire it was written for. Ebony Kingdoms is nominally a Revised Edition Vampire book, but for no particular reason is full of things formatted like 2nd edition difficulty charts that you'd need a previous edition to decode. Hell, Scion does not have a core resolution mechanic at all.

The fact is that White Wolf mechanics exist in a free floating soup, passed from one author to another in a giant game of telephone. In every book, in every edition of every game line there are ectopic rules. Little vestigial references to rules from other game lines and other editions or even house rules printed in no official books at all. Scion is the most egregious. Every dicepool, every power, every skill and number in the entire system is a reference to some unstated authorial head canon because the various authors were using some unholy combination of Exalted, Aberrant, and Vampire as the core action resolution system in their playtest group, but never actually wrote down what they were doing. But even first edition Masquerade isn't free of this, as it is incompletely ported over from Ars Magica in the form it was sent to the printers in.

The only time White Wolf was ever sticklers about actually using the mechanics for the edition they are nominally talking about was the first couple years of nWoD. And those writing guidelines were so stringent and full of bad ideas that they needn't have bothered.

-Username17
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Longes wrote: Or you could buy a 3-point merit and be a Gypsie from the Gypsie book.
Pretty sure you can be criminally charged for owning that book.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

DA:V20 remade most of the Roads (morality scales). Road of Heaven previously was pro-church and now is pro-religion. We get Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Druids and romans go into the Path of Sin, because fuck those guys.
ImageImage
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Drinking blood is impermissable in Judaism, so you can't get past road value 5. As a Vampire, you are supernatural evil, so you are stuck at road value 2 in Christianity. Those lists are garbage.

But of course, Dark Ages Vampire is inherently unplayable because electric light hadn't been invented yet.

-Username17
name_here
Prince
Posts: 3346
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:55 pm

Post by name_here »

Wait, the Islamic road value 1 is failing to submit to the will of Allah. Isn't literally every other increment the will of Allah?
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
souran
Duke
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:29 pm

Post by souran »

The Vice/Virtue rules from NWOD are probably the best thing in NWOD. Hell, they are probably the best version of humanity, karma, alignment, honor, or role playing mechanic I have seen in an RPG.

I know that frank cannot stand the virtues/vices that they selected, but the idea is fucking perfect.

Step 1: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that you can play to that is beneficial to yourself and those around you. When you play to that character trait during a scene you get a small bonus.

Step 2: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that will create tension/strife (but not something immersion breaking/game destroying like fishmalking) ONCE per session you can play to this tendency for a big bonus.

Its perfect. This is literally the way ensemble shows are written. Take Star Trek. Spock is logical and heartless. He is going to say science shit in the first act and in the third act he is going to point out the "logical" course of action and its going to be something unreasonable. McCoy is compassionate/hot tempered. He is going to be shocked by each loss of life and in the second ACT he is going to lose his shit over Spock's approach. In the second act Spock is going to respond to the doctor's outburst by asking him to be more logical and in third act the doctor is going to point out the following spocks logical approach will mean doing something unacceptable.

It so freaking simple and actually accomplishes the goal of describing a personality/role for a player in a way that literally every other dynamic fucking fails at. The way it incentivizes roleplaying both positive and negative attributes of your character is exactly what most systems lack and should be added to any game that wants to be more than a dungeon crawler.
Omegonthesane
Prince
Posts: 3680
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:55 pm

Post by Omegonthesane »

Nice elevator pitch, shame it isn't what Vice and Virtue delivered.

I'm not even sure it's what Asset/Fault in WoD Innocents delivered and I have better things to do right now than dig out a sourcebook that I'm not sure should even exist due to its basic concept of "Your whole party is preteens!".
Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

souran wrote:I know that frank cannot stand the virtues/vices that they selected, but the idea is fucking perfect.

Step 1: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that you can play to that is beneficial to yourself and those around you. When you play to that character trait during a scene you get a small bonus.

Step 2: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that will create tension/strife (but not something immersion breaking/game destroying like fishmalking) ONCE per session you can play to this tendency for a big bonus.
This isn't anything at all like what the Virtues and Vices are. I can only assume that you keep saying praises about the Virtues and Vices because your mind rebels at how shitty they actually are, and then you fill in the space where the actual mechanics of Virtues and Vices would have been had your brain been able to retain them with stuff you made up. And then since the only thing you "remember" about these things are shit your brain thought would be better, you think they are perfect. News flash: they are not perfect. They are not even good.

The actual Virtues and Vices are two means to regain a metagame currency whose meter begins each session full (meaning that there is no incentive at all to recognize either one until after some shit has gone down). The Virtue is a fire-and-forget that refreshes all of the spent Willpower, which means you are only incentivized to use it after Act II. The Vice can be repeated for credit but only gives back one point, so you use it in the second half of Act I and whenever you can after that.

And your characterization of the Vice and Virtue structure is also completely wrong. The Virtues require personal loss for group gain to activate. The Vices all require that you do something that "victimizes others" (their words). Vices are way worse than Fishmalking. For example: Wrath.
World of Darkness wrote:Your character regains one spent Willpower point whenever he unleashes his anger in a situation where doing so is dangerous. If the fight has already begun, no Willpower points are regained. It must take place in a situation where anger is unwarranted or inappropriate.
Yeah, it seriously requires that you start inappropriate fights. In a game that is nominally about talking to people. It's worse than a character who has "wacky insanity" or whatever the fuck. Because at least when the Fishmalk is done being disruptive you can go back to what you were doing and don't have to fucking roll initiative in "inappropriate" situations. Fuck.

No, the best version of that shit was Old World of Darkness Natures. Do a thing, get back Willpower. It doesn't need to be more complex than that. And indeed, everything they did in nWoD to make it more complex also made it worse.

-Username17
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

souran wrote:The Vice/Virtue rules from NWOD are probably the best thing in NWOD. Hell, they are probably the best version of humanity, karma, alignment, honor, or role playing mechanic I have seen in an RPG.

I know that frank cannot stand the virtues/vices that they selected, but the idea is fucking perfect.

Step 1: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that you can play to that is beneficial to yourself and those around you. When you play to that character trait during a scene you get a small bonus.

Step 2: Pick a character attribute/motive/stage direction that will create tension/strife (but not something immersion breaking/game destroying like fishmalking) ONCE per session you can play to this tendency for a big bonus.

Its perfect. This is literally the way ensemble shows are written. Take Star Trek. Spock is logical and heartless. He is going to say science shit in the first act and in the third act he is going to point out the "logical" course of action and its going to be something unreasonable. McCoy is compassionate/hot tempered. He is going to be shocked by each loss of life and in the second ACT he is going to lose his shit over Spock's approach. In the second act Spock is going to respond to the doctor's outburst by asking him to be more logical and in third act the doctor is going to point out the following spocks logical approach will mean doing something unacceptable.

It so freaking simple and actually accomplishes the goal of describing a personality/role for a player in a way that literally every other dynamic fucking fails at. The way it incentivizes roleplaying both positive and negative attributes of your character is exactly what most systems lack and should be added to any game that wants to be more than a dungeon crawler.
Okay.

1. nWoD has a fucking Humanity scale in addition to Virtue/Vice system. And that scale is super retarded, because it's morally wrong for mages to cast magic, and for Changelings to do fey things.

2. Virtue/Vice system is a downgrade from the Nature/Demeanor system that oWoD had, because it reduced the choice space to 7, and arbitrarily decided that being Wrathful or Greedy is worth 1 WP, while being Just or Faithful is worth all WP.
User avatar
Ice9
Duke
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Ice9 »

Also, even if the rules were better, some of the vice and virtues were really bad choices for creating entertaining situations.

Like Sloth, for instance. Deciding your character takes a nap instead of helping the rest of the party is easy, but it's also very boring. About the only way this could trigger that results in more action instead of less is if you were supposed to stand guard and fell asleep during it - which will happen once, and then you'll never be put on watch again.

Also, Temperance and Prudence. Not only are they too similar, they're both about being cautious and avoiding things happening, which is hardly something that needs to be encouraged more.

But at least following them causes some change in what occurs, unlike Faith, which just involves saying your character "finds meaning" in whatever has happened.

First time in nWoD, I made a character with Sloth/Temperance, until realizing that was a great way to avoid anything interesting happening and switched it to Greed/Something ... and then proceeded to ignore the RAW for Greed, because it requires Pharma-Bro levels of badness to get back a single WP.

1. nWoD has a fucking Humanity scale in addition to Virtue/Vice system. And that scale is super retarded, because it's morally wrong for mages to cast magic, and for Changelings to do fey things.
If the scale were actually measuring human-ness, and didn't have morality jammed in there, that would make sense. Doing fey things isn't bad, but it is non-human. Not what nWoD actually has though.

Also, the magic thing might be intentional. Based on what I've heard, there are a number of people who think "holding back from using magic whenever possible" is the goal of being a mage, and "arch-mage who has a crappy day job" is the greatest concept. Not my cup of tea, I didn't pick up a game called Mage in order to not cast spells, but apparently some people do.
Last edited by Ice9 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17340
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

Ice9 wrote:Also, even if the rules were better, some of the vice and virtues were really bad choices for creating entertaining situations.

Like Sloth, for instance. Deciding your character takes a nap instead of helping the rest of the party is easy, but it's also very boring. About the only way this could trigger that results in more action instead of less is if you were supposed to stand guard and fell asleep during it - which will happen once, and then you'll never be put on watch again.
Or you successfully point out to your group that it's perversely advantageous for you to always be on watch duty because you regain willpower by being bad at it, so they always put you on watch and nothing makes any damned sense on an ingame level.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Longes wrote: 1. nWoD has a fucking Humanity scale in addition to Virtue/Vice system. And that scale is super retarded, because it's morally wrong for mages to cast magic, and for Changelings to do fey things.
The Changeling scale, at least, isn't a morality scale. There is nothing morally wrong with going fey shit, it just makes you more fey yourself. The top of the scale represents Changeling who are are walking through their lives with their fingers in their ears going "la la la" I can't hear you" while pretending to be normal humans.

The bottom represents those who have fully embraced the faerie world at the expense of their human lives.

And when they hit 0 they become True Fay themselves, who are immortal and generally unkillable unless they screw up and have incredibly awesome cosmic powers and you know what they're absolutely no good reason not to race to Clarity 0, except for the fact that the rules require the Storyteller to take your character sheet away when you hit it.

And, also, because the True Fey are a metaphors for child molesters and becoming one of them presupposes that you're going to be kidnapping infants to take back to your magic fun castle for years and years of naked playtime.

Because ultimately Changeling: the Lost as about the struggle of abuse victims to get on with their lives without becoming like their abusers, and the magic stuff is all metaphorical trappings to make it more palatable.
User avatar
Rawbeard
Knight-Baron
Posts: 670
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 9:45 am

Post by Rawbeard »

So I just stumbled over this pretty image again, which in my opinion is the single best thing oWoD every created.

Image

unfortunatly most fans (I have no idea how to call those people) seem to chocke on their angst if you even mention this was a thing, so I will not hold my breath for any fun Technocracy action in the future. But I really wanted to wallow in nostalgia a bit.
To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

Mage had some pretty cool art which showed exactly what the writers didn't want you to play.
Image

It also had some odd pieces like this:
Image
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Rawbeard wrote:So I just stumbled over this pretty image again, which in my opinion is the single best thing oWoD every created.

Image

unfortunatly most fans (I have no idea how to call those people) seem to chocke on their angst if you even mention this was a thing, so I will not hold my breath for any fun Technocracy action in the future. But I really wanted to wallow in nostalgia a bit.
Eh, I know people who basically play the Technocracy as X-Com or the SGC, guys with absurdly high tech and spaceships and shit who are constantly innovating better technologies with which to fight the space alien invaders who are trying to conquer the world and keeping it a secret because the public is not ready to know.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:
World of Darkness wrote:Your character regains one spent Willpower point whenever he unleashes his anger in a situation where doing so is dangerous. If the fight has already begun, no Willpower points are regained. It must take place in a situation where anger is unwarranted or inappropriate.
Yeah, it seriously requires that you start inappropriate fights. In a game that is nominally about talking to people. It's worse than a character who has "wacky insanity" or whatever the fuck. Because at least when the Fishmalk is done being disruptive you can go back to what you were doing and don't have to fucking roll initiative in "inappropriate" situations. Fuck.
Wow. Okay, full disclosure I baulked at them telling me to open wide for Jesus so I basically didn't read the VnV for all of the nWoD game (singular) I played, and for that one they specifically let us pick our own thematic things almost like edging towards the Nature system from oWoD. You know, the one everyone liked.

Are the rest that bad? Because that one apparently says that in order to get Willpower you need to suffer from Randy Orton Syndrome Intermittent Explosive Disorder or ASPD. Do they all mandate that you be a total fucking asshole?
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

Koumei wrote:Are the rest that bad? Because that one apparently says that in order to get Willpower you need to suffer from Randy Orton Syndrome Intermittent Explosive Disorder or ASPD. Do they all mandate that you be a total fucking asshole?
Vice wrote:Envy

An envious person is never satisfied with what she has. No matter her wealth, status or accomplishments, there is always someone else who seems to have more, and it's coveted. Envious characters are never secure or content with their place in life. They always measure themselves against their rivals and look for ways to get what they deserve. They might be considered paranoid or just consumed by a self-loathing that they project onto others.

Your character regains one Willpower point whenever she gains something important from a rival or has a hand in harming that rival's well-being.


Gluttony

Gluttony is about indulging appetites to the exclusion of everything else. It's about dedicating oneself to sensual pleasures or chasing the next high. A glutton makes any sacrifice to feed his insatiable appetite for pleasure, regardless of the cost to himself or those around him. He might be considered a junky or even a kleptomaniac (he steals things he doesnÕt need just for the thrill of it).

Your character regains one spent Willpower point whenever he indulges in his addiction or appetites at some risk to himself or a loved one.

Greed

Like the envious, the greedy are never satisfied with what they have. They want more -- more money, a bigger house, more status or influence -- no matter that they may already have more than they can possibly handle. Everything is taken to excess. To the greedy, there is no such thing as having too much. If that means snatching someone else's hard-earned reward just to feather one's own nest, well, that's the way it goes.

Your character regains one Willpower point whenever he acquires something at the expense of another. Gaining it must come at some potential risk (of assault, arrest or simple loss of peer respect).

Lust

The Vice of Lust is the sin of uncontrolled desire. A lusty individual is driven by a passion for something (usually sex, but it can be a craving for virtually any experience or activity) that he acts upon without consideration for the needs or feelings of others. A lusty individual uses any means at his disposal to indulge his desires, from deception to manipulation to acts of violence.

Your character is consumed by a passion for something. He regains one Willpower point whenever he satisfies his lust or compulsion in a way that victimizes others.

Pride

Pride is the Vice of self-confidence run amok. It is the belief that oneÕs every action is inherently right, even when it should be obvious that it is anything but. A prideful person refuses to back down when his decision or reputation is called into question, even when the evidence is clear that he is in the wrong. His ego does not accept any outcome that suggests fallibility, and he is willing to see others suffer rather than admit that he's wrong.

Your character regains one Willpower point whenever he exerts his own wants (not needs) over others at some potential risk to himself. This is most commonly the desire for adulation, but it could be the desire to make others do as he commands.

Sloth

The Vice of Sloth is about avoiding work until someone else has to step in to get the job done. Rather than put in the effort -- and possibly risk failure -- in a difficult situation, the slothful person simply refuses to do anything, knowing that someone else will step in and fix the problem sooner or later. The fact that people might needlessly suffer while the slothful person sits on his thumbs doesn't matter one bit.

Your character regains one Willpower point whenever he successfully avoids a difficult task but achieves the same goal nonetheless.
The writers love Lust more than any other Vice, so whenever there is a mechanic that interacts with virtues/vices - you can bet it's going to be about Lust.
Virtues wrote:Charity

True Charity comes from sharing gifts with others, be it money or possessions, or simply giving time to help another in need. A charitable character is guided by her compassion to share what she has in order to improve the plight of those around her. Charitable individuals are guided by the principle of treating others as they would be treated themselves. By sharing gifts and taking on the role of the Samaritan, they hope to cultivate goodwill in others, and the gifts they give will eventually return to them in their hour of need.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever she helps another at the risk of loss or harm to herself. It isn't enough to share what your character has in abundance. She must make a real sacrifice in terms of time, possessions or energy, or she must risk life and limb to help another.

Faith

Those with Faith know that the universe is not random, meaningless chaos, but ordered by a higher power. No matter how horrifying the world might be, everything has its place in the Plan and ultimately serves that Purpose. This Virtue does not necessarily involve belief in a personified deity. It might involve belief in a Grand Unified Theory whereby the seeming randomness of the universe is ultimately an expression of mathematical precision. Or it might be a view that everything is One and that even evil is indistinguishable from good when all discriminating illusions are overcome.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever he is able to forge meaning from chaos and tragedy.

Fortitude

A person's ideals are meaningless unless they're tested. When it seems as though the entire world is arrayed against him because of his beliefs, a person possessing Fortitude weathers the storm and emerges with his convictions intact. Fortitude is about standing up for one's beliefs and holding the course no matter how tempting it may be to relent or give up. By staying the course -- regardless of the cost -- he proves the worth of his ideals.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever he withstands overwhelming or tempting pressure to alter his goals. This does not include temporary distractions from his course of action, only pressure that might cause him to abandon or change his goals altogether.

Hope

Being hopeful means believing that evil and misfortune cannot prevail, no matter how grim things become. Not only do the hopeful believe in the ultimate triumph of morality and decency over malevolence, they maintain steadfast belief in a greater sense of cosmic justice -- whether it's Karma or the idea of an all-knowing, all-seeing God who waits to punish the wicked. All will turn out right in the end, and the hopeful mean to be around when it happens.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever she refuses to let others give in to despair, even though doing so risks harming her own goals or well-being. This is similar to Fortitude, above, except that your character tries to prevent others from losing hope in their goals. She need not share those goals herself or even be successful in upholding them, but there must be a risk involved.

Justice

Wrongs cannot go unpunished. This is the central tenet of the just, who believe that protecting the innocent and confronting inequity is the responsibility of every decent person, even in the face of great personal danger. The just believe that evil cannot prosper so long as one good person strives to do what is right, regardless of the consequences.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever he does the right thing at risk of personal loss or setback. The "right thing" can be defined by the letter or spirit of a particular code of conduct, whether it be the United States penal code or a biblical Commandment.

Prudence

The Virtue of Prudence places wisdom and restraint above rash action and thoughtless behavior. One maintains integrity and principles by moderating actions and avoiding unnecessary risks. While that means a prudent person might never take big gambles that bring huge rewards, neither is his life ruined by a bad roll of the dice. By choosing wisely and avoiding the easy road he prospers slowly but surely.

Your character regains all spent Willpower points whenever he refuses a tempting course of action by which he could gain significantly. The "temptation" must involve some reward that, by refusing it, might cost him later on.

Temperance

Moderation in all things is the secret to happiness, so says the doctrine of Temperance. It's all about balance. Everything has its place in a person's life, from anger to forgiveness, lust to chastity. The temperate do not believe in denying their urges, as none of it is unnatural or unholy. The trouble comes when things are taken to excess, whether it's a noble or base impulse. Too much righteousness can be just as bad as too much wickedness.

Your character regains all spent Willpower when he resists a temptation to indulge in an excess of any behavior, whether good or bad, despite the obvious rewards it might offer.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Koumei wrote:
Are the rest that bad? Because that one apparently says that in order to get Willpower you need to suffer from Randy Orton Syndrome Intermittent Explosive Disorder or ASPD. Do they all mandate that you be a total fucking asshole?
There are seven Vices, and how well explained they are and how fucking dickish they require you to be varies a lot.

So to start off, there's envy. It gives your character a willpower "whenever she gains something important from a rival or has a hand in harming that rival's wellbeing." Now the example is that the "rival" is someone else on your team, and the character gets a Willpower back by poisoning their teammate just before an important public performance. Which is so fucking out there that I don't have words for it. But there's nothing specifically written in there that you can't have your rival be Gary Oak or some other NPC that you torment whenever you need Willpower refreshed. It still requires you to go AWOL from the story like all the fucking time unless your targeted rival happens to also be the antagonist of the chronicle.

Then there's gluttony. Always a weird vice, since eating all the pies is very much not on the same level as killing a dude. In nWoD, your appetites are more metaphorical, and you can be like a glutton for stealing shit or something (that's one of the examples). The terms of the refresh are "whenever he indulges in his addiction or appetites at some risk to himself or a loved one." So, no matter what the actual thing you are a glutton for, you still have to be a disruptive asshole who endangers the mission to get your willpower back.

Greed is the most playable. You activate it by being a murder hobo, or as they say in the book "whenever he acquires something at the expense of another. Gaining it must come at some potential risk (of assault, arrest or simple loss of peer respect)." Now I know you're probably thinking at this point that being a murder hobo is considered "playing the game wrong" by almost every Vampire player and literally every Vampire author, and that's true. But demonstrably there are games that exist where you can be a full time murder hobo and have the game keep going. Vampire wasn't supposed to be one of them, but there we are.

After having been split away from specifically fucking, there basically isn't any difference between gluttony and lust. Indeed, the designers can't actually think of a way to describe lust in a way that's different from gluttony at all, so they just don't bother. Lust has the shortest description of any vice. "Your character is consumed by a passion for something. He regains one W illpower point whenever he satisfies his lust or compulsion in a way that victimizes others." That's basically all you get. There's a thing, you want it, and if you fuck someone over to get it, you refresh willpower. The end. So broadly defined that I'm sure you could convince your Storyteller to let you get away with an interpretation that didn't torpedo the game. The actual example is a character jeopardizing the mission to have sex with a serial killer, because of course it is.

Then we have the interpretation of pride as being that your character is required to throw dangerous temper tantrums. Pretty much in so many words. The refresh happens "whenever he exerts his own wants (not needs) over others at some potential risk to himself. This is most commonly the desire for adulation, but it could be the desire to make others do as he commands." The example gets points for being a totally different interpretation of pride. Whoever wrote the example thought that you got Willpower back every time you said "Challenge Accepted!" which isn't what the rules say at all. So make of that what you will.

Only slightly less schizophrenic is sloth. The only criteria that's really explicit is "whenever he successfully avoids a difficult task but achieves
the same goal nonetheless." And that sounds like you get to get a Willpower back every time you say "Just as keikaku" but the earlier section says that doing this makes other people suffer. Regardless of whether it requires you to not go on the adventure or not go on the adventure and dick people over to get the refresh, it's basically incompatible with playing the game. It triggers when you refuse quests for fuck's sake.

And of course, wrath we already talked about.

-Username17
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

Gluttony is pretty much the Ur-Vice for a vampire, because all vampires are addicted to blood (it's the only thing they can eat!) and because drinking blood is inherently dangerous, as people tend to protest having their blood stolen.
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Koumei wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
World of Darkness wrote:Your character regains one spent Willpower point whenever he unleashes his anger in a situation where doing so is dangerous. If the fight has already begun, no Willpower points are regained. It must take place in a situation where anger is unwarranted or inappropriate.
Yeah, it seriously requires that you start inappropriate fights. In a game that is nominally about talking to people. It's worse than a character who has "wacky insanity" or whatever the fuck. Because at least when the Fishmalk is done being disruptive you can go back to what you were doing and don't have to fucking roll initiative in "inappropriate" situations. Fuck.
Wow. Okay, full disclosure I baulked at them telling me to open wide for Jesus so I basically didn't read the VnV for all of the nWoD game (singular) I played, and for that one they specifically let us pick our own thematic things almost like edging towards the Nature system from oWoD. You know, the one everyone liked.

Are the rest that bad? Because that one apparently says that in order to get Willpower you need to suffer from Randy Orton Syndrome Intermittent Explosive Disorder or ASPD. Do they all mandate that you be a total fucking asshole?
The others are less extreme.

Envy: Gain a willpower point when you gain something from a rival, or harm a rival. That's one of the best ones, because it just requires appropriate violence, or socializing, or negotiation, or blackmail, or whatever. It basically pays you willpower whenever you win, so there is absolutely no reason to fight your rival when you think you're going to lose.

Though, the actual example given in italic text is a character drinking a mysterious potion given to him unsolicited by a mysterious stranger who he has never seen before, but who promises that it will make him better than a rival player.
“Drink this and you’ll be MVP tonight.”
At first, the voice seemed to come out of nowhere, but then there he was, one of the ugliest guys Hughes had ever seen, sitting right there in the locker room, grinning like the Cheshire Cat.
“Who the hell are you? How’d you get in here?”
“Kick-off is in five minutes, Hughes. You want to be the star tonight? Then drink up. You want Montgomery to get the headlines tomorrow, then call security.”

Hughes considered a moment, then took the vial and downed it. Salty, thick, warm and powerful — so very powerful. Screw the consequences, he was going to have the game of his life.

By taking the drink, Hughes indulges his defining Vice and regains one point of spent Willpower.
So while the actual rules text is reasonable, the example text implies that it requires you to be too stupid to live. The others are about the same.

-

Gluttony requires that you indulge an addiction at the expense of yourself or loved one. If someone who love doesn't get hurt by your addiction, you don't get the willpower.

The example text is about a guy who snorts cocaine and chugs whiskey while his father is being tortured to death by mobsters. If you take this vice, you will swiftly run out of family members.

-

Greed is easier. The rules text says that you regain willpower whenever you gain something at the expense of others, but there must be some risk to yourself.

The example text shows a guy signing off on a corporate merger that ends a few hundred jobs, but makes him slightly wealthier. So being Gordon Gekko is perfectly viable for Greed, and the risk involved doesn't have to be that great.

-

Lust is satisfied by going after a passion or compulsion in a way that victimizes someone, according to the rules text. The example text has a US Marshal called Aron, who is part of the witness protection program, and is having an affair with one of his protectees, which counts because it's hypothetically an abuse of power and massive conflict of interest, though the protectee is enthusiastically into it.
Also, her last four husbands died under mysterious circumstances and he has disturbing blackouts, which keep getting longer and longer, every time he has sex with her. But he doesn't care because the sex is great.

So rules text suggests that becoming a catholic priest is the most appropriate outlet for this sin, but flavor text suggests that consensual but professionally damaging relationships work, if you completely ignore the fact that you're obviously screwing a succubus.

-

Pride: Exert your own wants (not needs) over others at potential risk to yourself. I'm not sure what that even means.

The example text is a french university professor who was dared to spend a night in a haunted house by a student during a lecture, and does so because it was a fucking dare, and he can't back down from one of those in spite of the fact that he's a fucking adult.

-

Sloth: The other best one, going by the rules. You gain a willpower point whenever you avoid a difficult task but achieve the same goal anyway. In other words, whenever you take the easy way out. This is the knotcutters vice. Your Storyteller will probably hate you if you use it frequently. You explicitly only get willpower if you still win without doing the difficult thing that you probably didn't want to do, anyway.

The example text for sloth is of a building superintendent deciding to fix broken hallway lights tomorrow instead of today. That's not even a major thing. That's literally "I'll wait until morning to change a few light bulbs" and absolutely nothing bad happens as a result.

-

Wrath: Frank already mentioned it, and its rules text is the worst. The example text is better.
The example text is a woman called April, who is a drug addict, and a woman called Rebecca, who is her landlord. When April says that she doesn't have the rent money and begins making unbelievable excuses, Rebecca beats the crap out of her. And lo and behold, this was actually an effective method, because April did have money squirreled away to buy drugs with, and so the back rent was paid and everyone was happy. Except April, who was both severely contused and would probably go into withdrawal when her stash ran out (especially since she's hooked on magical world of darkness drugs, rather than the normal kind).

So, the Wrath example text suggests that you can regain willpower by just beating the shit out of people who deserve to get the shit beaten out of them for the practical purpose of forcing them to do what you want them to do.

FrankTrollman wrote: So to start off, there's envy. It gives your character a willpower "whenever she gains something important from a rival or has a hand in harming that rival's wellbeing." Now the example is that the "rival" is someone else on your team, and the character gets a Willpower back by poisoning their teammate just before an important public performance. Which is so fucking out there that I don't have words for it.
The example character for Envy does not give the mysterious potion to his rival. He chugs the mysterious potion himself, because the mysterious stranger whom he has never seen before and was somehow able to sneak past stadium security into the team locker room implied that it would be performance enhancing. Which is, you know, the stupidest possible thing that anyone could possibly do. But it isn't the same as intentional teamkilling.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
schpeelah
Knight-Baron
Posts: 509
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:38 pm

Post by schpeelah »

Koumei wrote:Are the rest that bad? Because that one apparently says that in order to get Willpower you need to suffer from Randy Orton Syndrome Intermittent Explosive Disorder or ASPD. Do they all mandate that you be a total fucking asshole?
Sloth only requires you to circumvent the need for work, but the rest are terrible. Gluttony, Greed, Wrath and Pride require a risk to your party and Lust requires raping or at least molesting someone. Envy isn't so disruptive, but it isn't very useable either: "gain something from a rival or harm him" translates to "you get a stupid 1 Willpower when accomplishing personal objectives".
Post Reply