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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Went to the draft again this week. Drafted RG Werewolves this time. With the reading I've been doing, both here and and elsewhere, I knew a bit more going in, but only went 1-3. However, that's better than I did last week (0-4). Won the same number of games both times (4-8), but hey, it's an improvement over how things used to go.

Drafted the following:
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In retrospect, I needed more burn/removal. Clip Wings and Magmatic Chasm would have definitely helped in a couple of games. As it is, Dual Shot was put in after the first round I played when I realized I needed something. Prior to that, I had all three Rush of Adrenalines and Uncaged Furies. I also should have drafted wolves more aggressively. I passed a couple of not-were wolf cards that would have been helpful with my creature base. Building I noticed that I basically had no real choices of what creatures to not put in.

Any other thoughts?
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Your mana choices are still weird. Tireless Tracker is an amazing card, but it's not an expensive card. A two color deck should usually have a pretty even split of colored lands unless there's a really good reason to do otherwise. And I don't see such a reason in your case. Such a deck should be running about 9 forests, 8 mountains.

In any case, you don't have enough creatures. A Red/Green attack deck should have as many creatures as it has lands. That's a drafting problem, but you should still run even bad creatures when you're this creature light. Epitaph Golems aren't good you could still have used them just to have more bodies.

Secondly, you're running bad cards. Rush of Adrenaline and Might Beyond Reason are very marginal cards that you should only run if you are short of things to put in their place. You have Spiteful Motives and Vessel of Nascency, so that isn't an excuse.

-Frank
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok, good to know. I counted up my colored costs and spoilt the land that way.

I've been out for a few years and didn't do many tournaments before that, and sucked when I did, so this is helpful, thanks, Frank.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Went to another draft, drafted blue-red going for prowess. Should have jumped out, I think, since I wound up with a mediocre prowess deck. However, after siding some cards around after a game, I wound up with an ok mill deck that won me a game, and would have won me another if I'd played more carefully and kept an eye on my own deck (since I was facing another Manic Scribe with delirium).

Mill was surprisingly satisfying to run, even in a format with so much dicking around in graveyards. I'm kind of thinking of giving Modern one more chance with a mill deck, because I love me my alternate win conditions, apparently.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a Modern Mill deck? One thing I'm kind of looking at is Mind Sculpt and Tome Scour on a Spellweaver Helix, which would turn a 7 or 5 mill play into a 12 mill play. But that's just "kind of cute," not really high power, I don't think.

Another nice Mill trick would be to put Grinding Station in an Investigate deck that also has Fleeting Memories-
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edit: Ooh. Jace's Erasure is nice in a Fleeting Memories deck, too. Mills an opponent 1 whenever you draw.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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Eikre
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Unfortunately, Saffron Olive already got around to talking about Modern Mill, which probably pushed the cost of all the cards involved by like 50% but didn't add incredibly much to the state of the art. You should probably go read it, I'm just going to recommend a bunch of the same cards. I do have other commentary, however:

Modern Mill is a perfectly viable strategy, but you need to keep in mind: your opponent has 53 cards and 20 life, so the exchange rate against burn is just under 3:1. It does not meet the high-water mark for efficiency under those terms. Mill's Lightning Bolt costs two mana and 25 dollars. The Grinding Station combo you posted requires two cards to deal the equivalent of only 2 damage, and it repeat condition is that you can come up with more of a super-specific token artifact which is literally just not ever going to happen in your entire life. Spellweaver Helix is a reasonable idea but it's not even a combo, it's just how the card works, so again, Burn can use it exactly as well as you can.

In fact, pretty much the only Mill card that has the edge in primary value is



The majority of tuned modern decks will fulfill that condition for you with fetchlands, but you can also urge them along with Ghost Quarter and stuff. Needless to say, you can get four Archive Traps or you can get the fuck out of my face. You should probably even pair it up with its fetch card and run one-offs of certain other vital traps, just 'cause they're there.

But if, aside from Archive Trap, Mill is just flat out numerically worse than Burn in every other way, how the hell do you play Mill as anything other than an ersatz method of punching yourself in the dick? Well... Secondary value:



Basically, if you're not taking advantage of the Mill's unique propensity to fill up graveyards really quickly, then you are literally just not playing a mill deck at all. True facts. The stylistic imperative is to hold off your opponent using unique assets, where a Burn deck would only be able to ping their creatures. If you happen to happen to pull a 5/5 flyer on turn 1 and just get to attack with it for the win, that's good too.

One genre of card in particular which uses the graveyard as a gatekeeper is, again, the lobotomy crew. So, in Mill, our friend Extirpate is a more generalized answer to your opponent's important cards, rather than a narrow response to combos that habitually sacrifice themselves. In the case of Mill, however, you face a hard-counter in the form of certain Eldrazi who undo all your efforts both automatically and perpetually. So, instead of one which is immune to counterspells, you need an Extirpate that's immune to you being out of mana, so that you have it ready to go at any time.



Luckily, this card does exist. Don't know if you want to spend the money on it though.

For your perusal, there are some certain other mill engines that people may or may not think about:



Since you're Blue, unblockable creatures are easy to get your hands on. For five mana you can stick this Sword on one and attack for ten cards. That's poor value; you could have paid two mana to stick a bonesplitter on that same creature and attacked for three damage. If you could do something cool with 2/2 punks it might be different but as it stands, the Sword doesn't shape up to much.



Hedron Crabs are tempting renewable mill-power since they're so goddamned cheap, man-wise. People usually think about them in conjuction with fetchlands (also a good idea) but I fancy myself some Amulet Bloom, so: The bounceland can target itself, meaning you can use it to reliably hit your Crabs every turn if you aren't drawing any other land. The Amulets will let you use your bouncelands even if they're not sticking around, and extra amulets will give you extra mana. The amulet also makes the Shelldock more immediate, which is good in a format where nonbasic land destruction is a commodity. Finally, you can bounce the Shelldock and take it for another spin on the subsequent turn, which will likely finish the game. They stopped printing tutors that send cards to the top of your library, but there are a scant few cards that can reliably place something good where your Shelldock can reach it; Noxious Revival happens to be one of them, though I'm not necessarily recommending it.



So there's this deck archetype called "Owling Mine" that employs a peculiar artifact to punish one's opponent for having a good hand, and then naturally proceeds to give them that hand. Once they're already saturated with options, further cards aren't (theoretically) very much more help for your opponent... In the meantime, you enjoy blue removal via bounce and lots of draws via symmetrical card abilities. The Mill version of the deck is satisfying because the card draw is, itself, a form of library depletion, and then you play cards to force a recursion. Your main issue is with decks like Affinity where your opponent reduces all their cost to 0 and uses every goddamned draw you give them. Something I'm wondering is if it would ever be worth the tempo loss to uncap the land-play restriction and actually try to use the hilarious number of cards that you're coming up with, too.


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Eikre
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Come to think of it, there's a Reliquary Knight combo for mill...



Tribe Scout also does some of what post-ban Amulet Bloom needs... Fuck, I think I have a deck of my own to make.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Went to a Modern tournament playing Elves today. Lost to a WBG spirit/Goyf deck; tied to a newbie's Zombie deck (because he forgot about flying on his beater and gave me like ten extra turns past when he could have killed me; went hard to a bitter 1-2 loss against a WUR deck that just shits out dragon tokens past turn six (or a little later if I can make him put extra resources into the 1 drop that does that); and then just flat fucking miserably lost to...

A FUCKING ELF DECK.

Because his deck had bullshit like Nykthos and Nettle Sentinel, while mine had crap like Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elders with a win condition that was basically "Drop Protean Hydra with all this fucking mana; with an Overrun if necessary."
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Modern is a format devoted to net decking. New decks happen so rarely and so few cards enter the format from each new set that any deck that exists has probably been hive minded into its most ideal form somewhere on the internet a long time ago.

Let's take for example: Mill. There is one piece of interesting mill tech that came out in the last two fucking years. It's Sphinx's Tutelage. It grindstones your opponent every time you draw a card. That means that you durdling complements your mill strategy, which in turn means that you never ever have to run out of gas. So you can play a deck full of answers and card draw and use Mill as a passive and efficient win condition for control. That's interesting. But if you aren't gonna do that, a Mill deck built today should have the same cards in it that a Mill deck built in 2014 would have. And that means that people have already won tournaments with that Mill deck years ago, the lists have been publicized, and people have hive minded and nit picked them into perfected forms.

And while there are probably some neat things you can do with Sphinx's Tutelage with Shadows over Innistrad cards (like, using Jace's Archivist with Just the Wind), the fact of the matter is that Sphinx's Tutelage came out three sets ago and most of the Sphinx's Tutelage decks that might actually work were written up half a year ago and haven't changed. Even the "new" concepts are actually old enough to drive in Internet Years.

The way to play Modern is to look up a deck that you think sounds fun and check the deck list. Then realize that you are not willing to spend thirty dollars for an Archangel of Thune or forty five dollars for one of four fucking Auriok Champions and become sad and either look for budget options or go play Standard, Limited, or Commander.

I'm half assedly looking at putting together a B/W Modern Aristocrats deck, using Vizkopa Guildmage and Return to the Ranks / Rally the Ancestors as a win condition. But it's slow and half assed, because obviously the deck would be better with four Auriok Champions, but a playset costs about $180 and I can't justify that to my wife or myself.

-Frank
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, Modern is, like, the illustration of my constant problem trying to play Magic- I'm a broke motherfucker. I have been unemployed more than not since I was 18, so I've never really been able to justify even buying a damned booster box to have a shot at getting this powerful shit on the primary market. When I've had $100 I could put into something, I either needed new boots that would hopefully last for at least a couple years more, or didn't have people to play Magic with.

I guess I'm half-assedly looking at what Modern Goblin looks like, but I'm just compiling a list of good goblin cards and that list is already $70 for 11 distinct cards. So, I'm telling friends to knock me the fuck out if I consider going to another fucking Modern tournament, at least until I manage to finance a modern deck by selling my older crappy stuff. Until then, I guess I'm looking at Standard and drafting, and maybe trying to foster a Pauper play community. And maybe trying to get people to play a new format that limits deck/card value instead of Rarity, since there are seriously $20 cards that are legal in Pauper, and that sort of pisses all over the concept.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I have tons of cards. Like, seriously, not poundage, but if ton was a quantity rather than a weight, I'd have just over 8.5 tons of cards. Some of those are more than a playset. Some of those are ten fucking playsets, because I loves me some junkyard magic* and the local store stopped caring when it came to sorting.

I bundled up something like 2000 cards and took it over to a shop, guy looked through, and offered $15. I know it takes more work, but I know that there are 1000 card packs up on ebay and amazon for $15, so I took my cards home.

Now, granted, a lot of these are $.10 commons that I just have 20 have. But I have enough cards worth real money that I've gone through only 387 of them, packaging them into playsets, and putting a post-it on the sleeve with a rounded off average value, and I'm already at over $100. Then I have like 10 cards worth money you'd care about that are collectively worth another $175 rounding off. This makes me quite happy, because it means that if I can offload this shit, I can afford a couple of booster boxes of Standard cards and get back into constructed (hopefully).

The question is- what is the best way to offload these cards? And by best, I mean a balance of work and value. If I get a little less than value, but don't have to post several hundred ebay auctions, I'm ok with that. If I have to do a little more work, but I get good value, I can be ok with that too.

*A format where you get 400 cards that are mostly commons and uncommons and the occasional crap rare and then basically play as if it were a sealed.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Any card worth less than a dollar is essentially valueless from a resale standpoint. The time to find someone interested in it ((assuming they exist at all) is more than the card is worth, and the cost in fuel or postage to get the card to an interested buyer is also comparable to the value the card has. Companies like Manaleak and StarCityGames can and do sell these low value cards, but only because they already have vast storage and sorting systems to ship out higher value cards and the extra ten cents here and there starts to add up when you sell in very large volumes.

For an individual who has to sort their own collection and doesn't have an internet presence and extensive electronic database of cards on hand, these small fries are not worth chasing.

It's like... consider sand. It has a value. People buy it. But as a private citizen, it's not worth your time to haul sand around and the people who do want to buy sand won't want to waste time on you trying to figure out if you have what they want.

-Frank
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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's why I've been packaging stuff into playsets. But that still raises a lot of them to only $.40. I figured I can sell lots of these $.10 singles, though. Like a pack of Orzhov cards, or something
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hey Frank, you're way more up on the competitive stuff than I am. I'm starting to follow the competitive stuff, but I still have stuff like "Nut Draw" that I have to google or figure out from context. Could you (or anyone more knowledgable about this stuff) do a basice overview of terminology that's not part of Magic's rules but came over from Poker et al?
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OK, let's talk about the core concepts: Tempo and Value. They are both measures of advantage, but they aren't the same because over the course of the game you have different resources that are limiting you. Basically, there is going to be a finite number of turns, and you will see a finite number of cards. Tempo is about getting more than your opponent from your turns, Value is about getting more than your opponent from your cards.

So let's take an original set example: Unsummon. It puts a creature back in its owner's hand, and costs just one Blue mana. Cast normally it provides an advantage in Tempo at a cost in Value. That is: they cast a big monster using all of their mana for a turn, then you immediately pop it back into their hand with a single land you had up from whatever you were doing last turn, and they have to recast their creature the next turn. You are down a card and their card is merely delayed. So if you're staring down a blocked board searching for value, unsummon isn't a great draw, but if the game is down to a Race with only a few turns left before one player or the other wins, then Unsummon is a great draw. Your word for the paragraph is Race, which is when both players are advancing towards their win condition (for example: neither player can profitably block the creatures of the other, so both players are simply swinging for damage every round, or one player is attacking with creatures and the other player is sending Burn spells at the face). Your other word for the paragraph is Burn. Burn is direct damage of any kind, generally in the form of spending a card to do an amount of damage to a creature or a player (or sometimes a planeswalker).

Let's take another original example: Braingeyser. It costs X and UU, and it makes target player draw X cards. It's a card that is literally worth more than one card. The Value is very high. But of course, you generally spend a turn spending all your mana to play a card that doesn't impact the Board State at all. So you're sacrificing Tempo for Value. This can be the deciding factor when you have a Board Stall or other Board State where the defenses you set up last turn will protect you from what your opponent can do next turn. This paragraph's concept is the Board. MtG is of course card game, and does not have a literal board. But cards which are in play or which have a lingering effect are considered to be On the Board, and they are collectively the Board State. Life totals, cards remaining in deck, poison tokens, and other win conditions are similarly part of the Board State.

Which brings us to the concept of playing cards "For Tempo" or playing cards "For Value." In the original set, Blue was the best color because it could gain advantages in both Tempo and Value at the same time, which is just a somewhat abstract way of saying that their best cards were simply better than your opponent's cards. Many of those cards could be played for Value at EOT, with essentially no Tempo cost at all! This paragraph's concept is EOT, which stands for "End of Turn." You can play instants in response to the end of your opponent's turn, and since the very next thing that happens is that it comes around to your Untap phase, EOT spells are kind of free. There is a Tempo cost for leaving mana available to be able to cast such spells, but no Tempo cost for actually casting them.

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Clutch of Currents can be played as Tempo card that's worse than Unsummon because you can't cast it on your opponent's turn, or as a Value card which is worse than Reflector Mage because a 3/3 creature for 5 mana that makes you sacrifice a land but lets you Bounce a creature isn't something you'd normally play. But because it has two modes, it's a good card. Your word for this paragraph is Bounce, which means to push something back into a player's hand. Bounce is good to use on your opponent's stuff when it sets them back mana and turns because it gains you Tempo. Bounce is good to use on your own stuff to let you replay it and avoid kill effects or gain the benefits of Enter The Battlefield effects because it gains you Value. Your second word for the paragraph is ETB, which is an abbreviation for "Enter the Battlefield." Many creatures provide a bonus when they are first played, which means that if your opponent kills them with a card of their own, you are still ahead on Value even if you've lost on Tempo.

-Frank
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Prak
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Right, so I should have been maybe a bit more specific. I know very Magic-centric stuff, like burn, bounce, ETB, EOT, and that stuff. Value, Tempo and Nut Draw are the sort of terms that are more opaque to me. Which maybe isn't as clear a distinction as it seems to me...

Edit: ok, thought about a better way to put it- I'm a casual player. Burn, Bounce, Board, ETB and EOT and the like come up in that, so I'm familiar. Value, Tempo and Race are more competitive terms which I'm unfamiliar with, and I imagine that things like Nut Draw came over from poker when Magic pro players started playing poker professionally too. So this is definitely helpful, but it's the competitive terminology that I'm unfamiliar with.
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OK, so you're just looking for the competitive terms.

Win Condition - This is a thing that will make you win. For Combo decks, it might be a combo that literally makes you instantly win. For a Mill deck your Win Condition is running your opponent out of cards. For an Infect deck your win condition is putting 10 poison tokens on your opponent. The default Win Condition is to hit your opponent in the face with Creatures.
Threat - a Threat is something that advances your Win Condition.
Answer - an Answer is something that neutralizes one or more of your opponent's Threats.
Clock - When the board state has your Win Condition on it, your opponent has a Clock. For example: if you have a four power creature your opponent cannot block, your opponent has a five turn clock. If your clock is shorter than your opponent's clock, you are going to lose the game unless you play something that changes the board state. If you have nothing in your hand that will turn things around, your clock is how many turns you have to draw something that helps.
Durdle - Anything you do that is neither a Threat nor an Answer is Durdling unless it's Ramp. Durdle means to "do nothing" and it is used disparagingly to talk about decks that do not efficiently advance a Win Condition or neutralize one of their opponent; and it is used semi-ironically to speak of decks that have weird Win Conditions like Prison decks.
Bomb - a Bomb is a card which has a very large impact when used. A Threat that produces a short Clock or which is hard to Answer is a Bomb. An Answer that produces a lot of Value by Answering more than one Threat can be a Bomb.
Topdecking - When you are out of options in your hand and playing whatever you draw each turn, you are Topdecking.
Gas - Cards that advance your position are "Gas" if they aren't land. So if you draw a card and it's a powerful creature you can play you are drawing Gas, while a Mountain or a creature that costs more than you can afford is not Gas. The origin is probably a back formation from how you have "run out of gas" when you've played all the cards in your hand that you can play and there is nothing left to cast.
Going Wide - presenting multiple Threats so as to limit the effectiveness of your opponent's single target Answers or blockers. People sometimes think that there must be a "Going Big" or "Going Tall" to go with that, but there isn't. If you have only one or a few Threats then it doesn't require a term of art at all.

And here are some random slang terms that aren't super obvious:

Bear Any 2/2 creature for 2 mana is a Bear. Even if it's a really powerful Werewolf or something, it's still a Bear. The first set had a 2/2 Grizzly Bears for 2 mana, and the name stuck.
Sweeper A card which removes a lot of things simultaneously is a Sweeper. The archetypal Sweeper is something like Wrath of God, which destroys all creatures on both sides, and is thus an answer to more than one threat and a lot of value if it manages to trade itself for 3+ enemy cards.
Aristocrats A deck based around sacrificing things for value is an Aristocrats deck. It has to do with a card that was an Aristocrat that could sacrifice creatures to itself for minor advantage. The first such card was probably actually the Atog, but the Aristocrats Deck was the first all-in sacrifice deck that won tournaments doing that.

-Frank
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Don't forget to announce "Storm count at (insert number)" whenever your opponent plays more than one spell per turn.

That's always hilarious.


Last edited by Save_versus_Stupid on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Prak
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aristocrats likely comes from Sengir Aristocrat, I would imagine.

Thanks. The explanations of Tempo and Worth/Value were helpful, since I had an idea of what was meant, but not a clear definition.

I've always wanted to make a literal bears deck with all the various bears that actually have the bear type. Might make a virtual bears deck with bears that don't have it. Need to figure out what a Quantum Bears deck would be... Probably UG that uses Words of Wilding and instant-speed card draw to flash out bear tokens.

Hmm... What're the best sources of instant-speed card draw? I also need to look for "when a creature entered play" card draw effects that trigger on tokens...

edit: The core of Quantum Bears-
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok, so here's the Quantum Bears deck-

Quantum Bears
Alt: My god, it's full of durdling. And bears.

Lands
4 Forest
4 Island
4 Lonely Sandbar
2 Novijen, Heart of Progress
2 Simic Growth Chamber
4 Tranquil Thicket

Creatures
3 Ashcoat Bear
3 Grizzly Bears
4 Loam Dryad
3 Phantasmal Bear

Artifacts
3 Ashnod's Altar

Instants
4 Cerulean Wisps
4 Clairvoyance
4 Mind Bend

Sorcery
3 Coastal Discovery

Enchantments
1 Cryptolith Rite
2 Dire Undercurrents
2 Intruder Alarm
3 Words of Wilding
1 Words of Wind

The basic idea is to get out Dire Undercurrents, Mind Bend it to trigger card draw on Green creatures, get out Words of Wilding, and then begin to produce bear tokens instead of drawing. If you can get out Ashnod's Altar you can use your bears to pay for two more bears. If you can get out Loam Dryad and Intruder Alarm, then you don't have to lose bears to make bears (Tap bear and loam dryad to produce G, pay WoWilding's activation, draw. A bear pops out and all your creatures pop out. Repeat until your opponent folds under the weight of infinite bears.)

If it goes off perfectly, you turn Simic Growth Chamber and Novijen into creatures with Coastal Discovery. Which happens to trigger a card draw, so you make a bear. Then you create however many bears you care to, and then use SGC to pay for Novijen's pump, giving all bears that just entered play +1/+1. Preferable as a response to a bear being created, so that the bear creation then resolves, untapping all your creatures, and allowing you to do this again. Repeat until your opponent punches you in the face.

Cryptolith Rite is there as an extra way to use your bears to pay for bears, Words of Wind give you card bounce, the instants other than Mind Bend allow you to start your infinite bear engine on your opponent's turn. The bear permanents give you some early combat survival ability, with Ashcoat having Flash and allowing you another way to start your IBE on your opponent's turn. Cycling lands (thicket, sandbar) also give you instant speed card draw, while also serving as land if you get screwed on basics.

This deck is worth ~$40. When I get my next paycheck, I might try to put it together and find a Legacy tournament to try it in.
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Schleiermacher
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But in Legacy that deck is going to be no fun, because it's far too slow and inconsistent. Imagine a Planeswalker stomping on the face of a bear, forever.

Edit: Also, why would you run only 3 Ashcoat Bears when you're running Grizzly Bears? Ashcoat Bears are strictly better.


Last edited by Schleiermacher on Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I long ago came to realize that I build shit decks. Good point on the ashcoats.

I'm at Gameday, and I'm damned glad I got a promo Incorrigible Youths, since I'm currently 2-0 and wondering why the fuck I play this game.

What's wrong with my deck this time?

Creatures
4 Bloodmad Vampire
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Incorrigible Youths
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
2 Voldaren Duelist
2 Heir of Falkenrath
Markov Dreadknight
2 Twins of Maurer Estate

Spells
3 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
2 Stensia Masquerade
3 Alms of the Vein
2 Call the Bloodline

Lands
1 Forbidding Ruins
12 Mountains
10 Swamps
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
What's wrong with my deck this time?


Looks like a Tier 2ish aggro deck. You don't have a draw engine (zero Sin Prodders or Asylum Visitors, for example - also no Read the Bones). So you're going to run out of gas against decks that can hold the line. Also, your top end is a Markov Dreadknight, which is weak compared to Dragonlord Kologhan and slow compared to Drana or Olivia. Awkwardly middle of the road is what I'm saying. You don't really want to pay 5 mana for a finisher who still isn't going to survive a Languish on the turn it comes into play.

But you have a lowish curve and a lot of cheap/free madness outlets, so you should be able to stomp a jank deck or a durdle deck.

-Frank
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If only I'd played against one of those, instead of white weenies, some green CoCo thing, and a deck that used Nantuko Husk, Liliana and some enchantment that drained opponent when creatures died.
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Schleiermacher
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Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 584

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Then maybe I can now get some feedback on my similar build:

I know this isn't optimal (I want more Visitors and Gorgers, the fourth Ruins and probably a couple of Olivias) but it's annoyingly hard to get the cards where I live and if I buy online I get reamed on tolls. Going to try to play some sealed and trade for the stuff I'm missing. I'm sure I have more four-offs than I should but I'm not sure what to cut down on yet -this deck is purely theorycrafted and I haven't actually played it against a real opponent yet. (I played one game against a friend, but he's rubbish at Magic so that doesn't give me any usable data.) I suspect the first against the block are the Bloodmad Vampires though -they're great in the best case, but feel clunky. Alms of the Vein is purely tempo and more removal (I.e Lighting Axe) might be better -but it's pretty great tempo so I'll need to test that.

Land (23):
3 Foreboding Ruins
10 Mountain
10 Swamp

Creatures (23):
4 Insolent Neonate
2 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Blood-Mad Vampire
4 Incorrigible Youths
1 Asylum Visitor

Sorceries (4):
4 Alms of the Vein

Instants (4):
4 Fiery Temper

Enchantments (6)
2 Stensia Masquerade
2 Call the Bloodline
2 Sinister Concoction

Sideboard:
3 Sin Prodder
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Twins of Maurer Estate
2 Sinister Concoction
2 Markov Dreadknight

My sideboarding strategy (purely theoretical as yet) is sort of transformational - Alms, Bloodmads, Neonates and Visitors go out to turn me into more of a mid-range deck, with Sin Prodders and a higher curve to hurt my opponent with them.

I'm wondering if I can (or should) find room for Biting Rain. Most of my own creatures post-board survive it, and it can really hose tokens and opposing aggro. But then, what do I take out?

I know Dreadknights aren't great, but they're playable and I don't have a better finisher at the moment.


Last edited by Schleiermacher on Sun May 01, 2016 1:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
If only I'd played against one of those, instead of white weenies, some green CoCo thing, and a deck that used Nantuko Husk, Liliana and some enchantment that drained opponent when creatures died.


Zulaport Cutthroats are creatures, not enchantments, just FYI. Well, you were playing against people who were netdecking Tier 1 decks from the Top 8 of the Pro Tour. That was White Humans (featuring Anafenza and Avacyn), Bant Company, and Green/Black Aristocrats. In that environment you need an answer to Avacyn and you need an answer to the Profane Prince.

Basically this leaves open the possibility of going all-in on card draw, spamming the world with Vampire Knights from Call the Bloodlines, and then flipping your own damn Westvale Abbey; or adding White or Green. Mardu Madness (Red/Black/White featuring Nahiri as a discard outlet/threat answer) or Jund Goodstuff (Red/Black/Green with emphasis on larger, harder hitting creatures with Olivia and Drana as the bottom rather than top of the curve and packing 4 Clip Wings in the sideboard) are both known Tier 1 decks you can netdeck.

But swinging in hard for the first 6 turns and then running out of gas is not much of a plan against any of those tier one decks. Bant Company, White Humans, and Green/Black Aristocrats all have a pretty decent defense for the first few turns and a fearsome late game engine.

-Frank
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