Review: D&D 5E Dungeon Master's Guide

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Review: D&D 5E Dungeon Master's Guide

Post by Grek »

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The book leads with the Credits section and so shall I. We have two D&D Lead Designers (Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford), three DMG Leads (Crawford, Christopher Perkins, James Wyatt), three more Designers (Robert J Schwalb, Rodney Thmpson, Peter Lee), four Editors (Scott Fitzgerald Gray, Michele Carter, Chris Sims, Jennifer Clark Wilkes), a Producer (Greg Bilsland), three members of Product Management (Neil Shinkle, John Hay, Kim Graham), five people working on Production Services and eight on Brand and Marketing. Now, I'm not sure what it is that a DMG Lead does that a D&D Lead doesn't, or what exactly the distinction between Producer, Production Management and Production Services is, but I can tell you that having four editors is three editors too many.

Artwise, we have credits for six Art Directors, four Graphic Designers, a cover illustraitor (Tyler Jacobson; a footnote at the bottom of page informs us that this is "the archlich Acererak as he raises an army of undead and prepares to unleash it on an unsuspecting world".), 65 Interior Illustrators and 15 "Additional Contributors" who I can only assume were responsible for the fiction pieces or something along those lines.

Below the footnotes is the following "Disclaimer":
Wizards of the Coast does not officially endorse the following tactics, which are guaranteed to maximize your enjoyment as a Dungeon Master. First, always keep a straight face and say OK no matter how ludicrous or doomed your players' plan of action is. Second, no matter what happens, pretend you intended all along for everything to unfold the way it did. Third, if you're not sure what to do next, feign illness, end the session early and plot your next move. When all else fails, roll a bunch of dice behind your screen, study them for a moment with a look of deep concern mixed with regret, let loose a heavy sigh, and announce that Tiamat swoops down from the sky and attacks.
and below that is a copyright notice which I probably should have read before posting that quote. Oh well.

The book is divided up into an introduction, nine chapters, four appendices and an index. The DMG as a whole is 317 pages long, and I'm hoping to tackle one or two chapters per update, for a total of at most a dozen updates. Before I get into the Introduction section though, let me talk briefly about the tone of this review. D&D 5E is pretty well reviled on this forum, and that's not a completely unjustified opinion. Despite that, I'm intending to give this book a fair shake. If you want a hyperbolic, Kaelik-style rageview, this isn't the thread for that. I'll point out where the book fails, but I'm not going to foam at the mouth and call Mike Mearls an egotistical con artist, or declare anything written here to be a war crime. It's honestly just a book, and I'm not the sort of person to be driven to drink by words about role playing games. So, without further adieu:

Introduction

The 5E DMG's introduction is mercifully brief and surprisingly well done. Those of you who've read the 5E PHB might be expecting a 15 page rant on the Dungeon Master's Mystical Storytelling Powers™, but its actually a scant 2 pages of explanation of what this book is and what it is that Dungeon Master does while playing Dungeons and Dragons. The introduction tells you right away to go read the Player Handbook if you haven't already, and that you'll need to get a copy of the Monster Manual if you're not running the D&D Starter Set dungeon. Next it defines some basic terms such as Adventure, Campaign, Adventurer, PC and NPC. Its refreshingly straight-forward compared to the DMGs of 3rd and 4th edition.

Next the introduction explains that the book has been divided into three Parts, titled respectively, "Master of Worlds", "Master of Adventures" and "Master of Rules." Eyerolls at the pretentious naming aside, its not a bad organizational scheme. The DM is supposed to make a world, make an adventure, then referee the rules in roughly that order.

The section concludes itself by presenting the "Know your Players" section, which is about seven different player "types" and how to run for them. Unlike most sections of its type, it doesn't single out any type as being problem players. Instead, it talks about how different players are looking for different things from the game and that you should figure out what it is a player is looking for and strive to include things specifically for that play style. The closest it comes to talking about players as a problem is the "Instigating" player type, who wants to do things and take risks and hates being bored. The advice there is to allow interaction with the environment, to include both rewards and consequences for risky actions and to include NPCs who are "feisty" and "unpredictable" for those players to play off of.

Probably the most surprising inclusion in this section is the fact that the text notes that the DM has several roles (including mapmaking, storytelling, improvisational acting and rules refereeing) and that not all DMs are going to be equally good at every aspect of a DM's job. The DMG advises DMs to stick to the parts they are good at (or at least the parts they enjoy) and to lean on modules or the other players to help with the parts they have trouble with. It specifically calls out rules mastery and world-building as things to delegate on if you aren't strong in those areas. Its a notable departure from previous editions where the DM is expected to be omni-competent, and a good change at that. It almost makes you hopeful for the rest of the book.
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Post by DrPraetor »

What about the physical quality of the book? The paper, the binding and so on?

I like how it is made out of real baby skin, because MIKE MEARLS IS WORSE THAN HITLER.
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Post by Krusk »

I hate 5e. The 5e DMG is full of random charts and shit, and I'm actually using it in me 3.X game right now.

Its surprisingly lacking in mechanics, its basically just a bunch of "do whatever" advice and then charts for random shit.

I didn't hate this book. I mean, the DM advice is shitty, but the volume/quality of DM content was actually decent.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Thanks for doing this.

Despite being one of the aforementioned Mearls haters (his work, not personally), I'm curious to see your fair shake on the book.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I like how the cover is a Lich using magic to control what looks like a PC warrior.
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Post by icyshadowlord »

That guy kinda looks like the Pathfinder iconic Fighter actually...
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Post by Grek »

DrPraetor wrote:What about the physical quality of the book? The paper, the binding and so on?
I knew I was forgetting something. The printing itself is really well done. The pages are plain white with black text brown headers. Uniform font and reasonable use of formatting (Bold for game terms, italics for names of other books) all throughout. The art is both colourful and legible, to the point where I've used screencaps from the PDF version as tokens in unrelated roll20 campaigns.

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Hello, new shugenja token.

The big flaw though is the binding. Whoever glued the pages together fucked up big, as they fall out after a few weeks of use. In individual sheets, not even in clumps of 50 pages at a time. WoTC has a returns policy for this sort of thing, but even then you're out the use of your book for about a month while the new copy ships in from Seatle. Overall grade: C+.

Chapter One: A Word of Your Own

Chapter One of the book claims to be about "building your world and then creating a campaign to take place in it" and largely lives up to the first half of that claim. The very first section is entitled "Core Assumptions" and gives a bullet point list of some basic premises that the rules assume to be true. I like bullet points and I like clear statements of assumptions, so I'm a big fan of this section. That said, it doesn't cover much new ground: Gods exist, but exert influence primarily through their servants. The world is old and contains both ancient ruins and large stretches of uninhabited wilderness. There have been great conflicts in the past which have destroyed most of the ancient civilizations. Geopolitics are strongly factional, with organizations of powerful individuals forming based on common goals rather than geography. Magic exists and magic items can commonly be found in the ruins of ancient civilizations. All basic Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms staples.

The next section is about inverting those assumptions. This had potential, but lacks in follow-through. Take idea #1:
The World Is a Mundane Place. What if magic is rare and dangerous, and even adventurers have limited or no access to it? What if your campaign is set in a version of our own world's history?
These are all fabulous questions. Questions which the book makes no effort to answer. They're more prompts than useful advice.

Next up is "Gods of Your World" which is an overview of how D&D-style religion. It helpfully points out that in 5E clerics choose domains rather than deities, so a cleric can have whatever theology they want and still be a functional player character. The default assumption is labelled "Loose Pantheons" where there are many gods who are acknowledged to exist, but which have little to no formal relationship to one another. The "Dawn Pantheon" is given as an example of this setup, which is an unabashed mashup of the most popular gods from Feyrun, Greyhawk, Greece, Egypt and Norse myth. Want to have Pelor and Athena in the same pantheon? Sure, why not.

Another questionable choice is the "inclusion" of 3E style Divine Ranks in a sidebar. Listed are Greater Deities (who are bigger than you and cannot be summoned or directly interacted with), Lesser Deities (who, like Lloth, can be summoned up by some cultists and then banished when Drizztthe protagonists stab them), Demigods, Titans and Vestiges. None of this has any game mechanical effect beyond the fact that it specifically calls out those last three as not granting spells. Sigh.

The other religious systems listed include "Tight Pantheon", with the Aesir of Norse myth given as an example; Mystery Cults, Monotheism, Dualism, Animism, and Philosophies. Both druids and Paladins are called out as probable converts to that last one, serving Nature or Justice respectively. This section is long on general principles, but short on actual examples. I'd be interested in a Dualistic presentation of the Gruumsh vs. Corellon conflict, for example. Or a sample Mystery Cult devoted to Vecna. It would be quite a bit more useful than the next section, "Humanoids and the Gods", which points out that while monoracial gods can exist (Gruumsh for the Orcs, Moradin for the Dwarves, Correllon for the Elves), there's usually no monoracial god of Humans and therefore humans usually worship all sorts of gods and are very "diverse". Spending six paragraphs to advise the DM to pigeon-hole all the non-human races in an extremely round about manner is advice I could have done without, DMG.

Third in the chapter is "Mapping Your Campaign" which, unsurprisingly, gives advice on how to draw up maps. Whoever wrote this section apparently has a deep love for hex grids, as the from the second paragraph out it talks strictly in terms of hexes when it talks about the arrangement of the map at all. Province scale maps are supposed to be 1 mile to a hex, such that the entire map is about a day's travel from end to end. Kingdom scale maps are 6 miles to a hex and should cover "a large region, about the size of Great Britain or half the size of the state of California." A continent scale map should be 1 hex to 60 miles, which implies that a continent should be about 30 Californias big. That's not... entirely wrong, I suppose? It then walks you through some basic map scaling math, saying that yes, if two cities are 3 hexes apart on the Continent map, then they're 30 hexes apart on the Kingdom map, and that a single Kingdom scale hex contains a 6 by 6 grid of Province scale hexes. I'm assuming they mean for you to draw up something like this:

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but I don't know of anyone who would actually follow that advice. Regardless, once you've drawn up a map, it's time to make a settlement. It starts out with some suitably pastoral art:

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and, as you can see above, a bunch of questions to ask yourself about whatever settlement you're designing. The rest of this section deals with possible answers to those questions in admirable detail. There are a few good bits of advice here (If a settlement is only intended as a stopping off point or a place for the PCs to rest for the night, don't bother with more than a name, a size and a brief bit of atmosphere. Fill the rest in when and if they ever become important.), but more than a few disappointments. No real guidance is given for settlements larger than 25000 people, despite this being a big part of several settings. Commerce and Language also get their own subsections, with the incredibly terrible advice of including forms of exotic coinage that are worth more in the issuing city than anywhere else. Probably the most egregious example is the Gond Bell, which is a small brass bell worth 10gp normally, or 20gp if sold to a Temple of Gond. I have no idea who Gond is, but one can only assume he is the God of Bells and Currency Speculation.

Settlements is also notable for containing the first of many random percentile charts in the DMG. In this case, it's a random Government chart, for deciding who the local leader is and how they rule.

Fourth in this chapter (which is a lot longer than I remember it being) is Factions. Factions are supposed to be the new big thing in 5E, but the examples are all drawn from 3.5 Adventurer's League. The Harpers, Zhentarim and so forth. You advance in a faction using a psuedo-XP known as Renown, but since the benefits of getting renown and the rate at which it is acquired are both DM-dependent and never shown to the player, it honestly doesn't really mean much except as a reminder to the DM to keep track of what the player's actions mean in terms of their reputations.


Next is "Magic In Your World", which is perhaps unsurprisingly a small orchestra of "Maybe you should try a low magic setting, DM" dogwhistles. Though the book never outright says that the DM should be heavy handed when slapping down spellcasters who disrupt the setting, it's certainly implied. There is one actually useful note in this section, though: "Teleportation Circles". The Teleportation Circle spell is the default form of teleportation in 5E and lets you teleport to known special locations that have been imbued with teleportation magic over a year of downtime. The default assumption is that each major city has one or more teleportation circles in it, located in the local chapter of a major temple or faction under heavy guard to keep visitors and returning members safe from ambushes. That's surprisingly logical for 5E.

Next in line is "Creating a Campaign" which lists the following steps:
  • 1. Make a Home Base. See "Settlements" above.
  • 2. Make a Local Region. See "Mapping" above.
  • 3. Make an adventure. See Chapter 3 for details.
  • Set the Stage. Figure out what information you need from your players about backgrounds and motives. It also says to write a handout (of no more than two pages) containing all of the in character information that players Need to Know about the campaign. It specifically points out that just because you can write a 20 page novella about your setting doesn't mean you should.
  • Involve the Characters. Basically, get the characters "in" on the adventure by using their flaws, bonds and other background information as adventure hooks.
  • Create Backgrounds. In 5E, players get Backgrounds in addition to race and class which give real mechanical benefits. This step apparently involves designing some custom for any players who need one to fit their concept. I have no idea why this step goes here, but there's a pointer to chapter 9 "Dungeon Master's Workshop" for ideas on writing rules content.
You may notice that I stopped numbering the steps after #3. That's because the book did the same. For reasons that probably include "We had four editors." and "We probably assigned different parts of this list to different authors without agreeing on a set format."

From here on out it's all random charts for the Creating a Campaign section. The "Campaign Events" section says that you need events to drive the plot and that you should pick some or roll for some off these charts and use that as a scaffold for your campaign's overall story. We start with the 1d20 "Worldshaking Events" chart with Leader Types, Cataclysmic Disasters, Invading Forces, Extinction or Depletion, New Organization and Discoveries subcharts. The advice given is to roll one for the beginning of your campaign, once in the middle of your campaign and once at the end of your campaign. That's is a decent enough way of running a campaign if you're not feeling particularly creative, or even if you're just looking for a prompt. Watch:

Beginning: 6. Extinction or Depletion of... 3. Magic or Magic-users (all magic or specific kinds/schools of magic).
Middle: 4. Assault or Invasion by... 4. A past adversary reawakened, reborn or resurgent.
End: 1. Rise of a Leader or Era of a/an... 2. Religious Nature.

Campaign Seed: The most recent Pelor has ended his thousand year reign, having exhausted his divine might in a battle against the Moon Ghost. With the dawn of the new millennium, the priesthood must now find a mortal with the divine spark of the Sun and place him or her upon the Throne of the Sun so that Pelor can be reborn. Pelor's worshipers have divided into two sects: the Cult of the Golden Child who wishes to find one of Pelor's many demigod offspring for the job, and an ancient Pelorite heresy backing a demon known only as "the Burning Hate" for the new position as Sun God. With their magic gone, both factions are recruiting adventurers to work toward their respective goals through strength of arm and might of magic.

Much like the hexes system given for map-making, there's numerous other ways you could come up with campaign ideas. But this one is the one they happened to print and works tolerably well.

The final section of Chapter One is "Play Style". I'm not sure why this comes after Creating a Campaign, given that you presumably want to decide the style of the campaign before you write it, but then again I'm not Jeremy Crawford. One can only assume it made sense to him at the time. This section is frankly terrible. It presents the options as a continuum between "Hack and Slash" and "Immersive Storytelling" with all of the other options presented as steps in between. It also tries to get you to care about Tiers of Play (ranging from Levels 1-4: Local Heroes to Levels 17-20: Masters of the World), and the different Flavours of Fantasy, but it's long on references to works of fiction and short on practical advice.

Possibly the most egregious errors are the Starting at Higher Levels Equipment Chart (which can be summarized as: For a High Magic campaign, start players off with one more magic item than normal. For a Low Magic campaign, start them off with one less!) and the Wuxia section, which is includes a Wuxia Weapons Name chart (yes, game, a katana is totally a longsword) and the downright perplexing advice to run all samurai as paladins.

Lets end this with one of the best pieces of art in the book:
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I have no idea what modrons have to do with this section and I don't even care. Look at their adorable little faces and let all the disappointment just float way.
Last edited by Grek on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

I can probably make you hate 5e even more. So, I have no idea what people were supposed to use for overland maps in earlier editions, I know in 3e there is no standard, and there was no standard in 2e games I played. You just drew a map and went places on the map using the map, and you didn't worry about whether the overland map was in hexes or squares, because why would that be relevant, you are going from point a to point b.

However, apparently, as part of the Old School "Renaissance" thing, people made up a dumb hex grid system that is supposed to involve one roll on the random encounter tables per hex people move through.

And 5e, as we know, has shitmuffin and whatever the mod/owner guy of theRPGsite is named as people they credited.

So basically, whomever wrote that section either was a "Old School" fan and/or, probably took direction from those people when making overland maps, and copied the thing that was invented to be a knock of AD&D.

Welcome to 5e, if you thought second edition was the best edition, you are too smart for this edition.
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Post by OgreBattle »

"Burning Hate" Pelor, isn't that a meme from 4chan about how Pelor would be a god of destruction to underdark dwellers and vampires?
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Post by Blicero »

Kaelik wrote:I can probably make you hate 5e even more. So, I have no idea what people were supposed to use for overland maps in earlier editions, I know in 3e there is no standard, and there was no standard in 2e games I played. You just drew a map and went places on the map using the map, and you didn't worry about whether the overland map was in hexes or squares, because why would that be relevant, you are going from point a to point b.

However, apparently, as part of the Old School "Renaissance" thing, people made up a dumb hex grid system that is supposed to involve one roll on the random encounter tables per hex people move through.

And 5e, as we know, has shitmuffin and whatever the mod/owner guy of theRPGsite is named as people they credited.

So basically, whomever wrote that section either was a "Old School" fan and/or, probably took direction from those people when making overland maps, and copied the thing that was invented to be a knock of AD&D.

Welcome to 5e, if you thought second edition was the best edition, you are too smart for this edition.
If travel consists of more than just "going from point a to point b", it's useful to have hexes. This is why (for example) the AD&D Wilderness Survival Guide came with a bunch of blank hex maps, and the rules recommended that you use as a starting region map something like this:
https://www.blackgate.com/wp-content/up ... -large.jpg Or why a greyhawk map would be in this format: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wnJvOG1mbt8/ ... dlarge.gif Or why the 1e DMG would talk about clearing hexes in its section on player domains. The systems OSR people use for hexcrawling are usually more formalized than those that existed thirty years ago, but they did not spring into being ex nihilo.

Shitmuffin and that other guy are far from the only people who use hexes. It's no secret that the 5e people were trying to pull in middle class middle-aged dads who played D&D in the seventies and early eighties. So it's not surprising that the 5e DMG would include reference to hex maps.
Last edited by Blicero on Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by name_here »

Hexes are not a bad idea in and of themselves. They tesselate and assuming all paths through it that pass through the center are of equal length is a more accurate approximation than it is for squares. Each hex is adjacent to six other hexes and there's no need to worry about whether you count corner-to-corner contact as adjacent or not. I find them a bit confusing for tactical maps because of how you sort of zig-zag when you want to go in a straight line horizontally or vertically, but at the larger scale you're more likely to care about the diagonals thing

Their overland map advice seems perfectly fine. Yeah, people aren't actually going to make a hex of hexes, but it's nice to have a guideline.
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Post by RedstoneOrc »

OgreBattle wrote:"Burning Hate" Pelor, isn't that a meme from 4chan about how Pelor would be a god of destruction to underdark dwellers and vampires?
Nah it's from the old wotc boards. A guy noticed that Pelor did a lot of fucked up things in 3e, like sending a paladin to hell after getting revenge on a vampire for killing with gate in his heart. Or the facts he has assassins and demon summoners in complete champion.

See below cuz I wasn't gonna go looking for a link.
Last edited by RedstoneOrc on Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Starmaker »

OgreBattle wrote:"Burning Hate" Pelor, isn't that a meme from 4chan about how Pelor would be a god of destruction to underdark dwellers and vampires?
Pelor being evil is a meme so old it precedes the widespread use of the word "meme". Specifically "The Burning Hate" appellation originated here.
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Post by Kaelik »

Blicero wrote:If travel consists of more than just "going from point a to point b", it's useful to have hexes.
What possible more are you going to use an overland campaign map for?
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Post by Windjammer »

Grek wrote:Chapter One: A Word of Your Own[/b][/size]

Chapter One of the book claims to be about "building your world and then creating a campaign to take place in it" and largely lives up to the first half of that claim. The very first section is entitled "Core Assumptions" and gives a bullet point list of some basic premises that the rules assume to be true. I like bullet points and I like clear statements of assumptions, so I'm a big fan of this section. That said, it doesn't cover much new ground: [..]
The next section is about inverting those assumptions. This had potential, but lacks in follow-through. Take idea #1:
The World Is a Mundane Place. What if magic is rare and dangerous, and even adventurers have limited or no access to it? What if your campaign is set in a version of our own world's history?
These are all fabulous questions. Questions which the book makes no effort to answer. They're more prompts than useful advice.
Indeed, it doesn't cover new ground, because the section is lifted from the 4E DMG (pages 150-151 to be precise), which in turn lifted it from Dungeon Mastering for Dummies (written for 3.5). Between the 5E DMG and these two books, you'll find a lot of overlap. To some extent, this does not matter because the advice is entirely generic. To another, the extent to which it happens is indicative how much of the DMG is not integrated with - or hard wired with - the rules system it ostenstively comes with.

With the 4E DMG, this created bizarre disconnects, since the encounter advice was often poorly porting over from 3.5 to 4E. Basically the advice, to mesh perfectly, would have to be recalibrated.

With the 5E DMG, the disconnect is of an entirely different sort: you feel that none of the advice - the charts, the rules background sections, and so on - connect to any ruleset at all. I feel like it's the AEG d20 Toolbox, complete with some generic Greg Stolze/Robin Law gaming advice pamphlet. More than the PHB and MM, the 5E DMG shoves it into your face that this edition features rules as background noise; and that that's intentional because to have the rules at all structure your experience is bad for the game.

None of this is new, but I do think it puts a review itself of the 5E DMG into a certain perspective.
Last edited by Windjammer on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Windjammer »

Kaelik wrote:I have no idea what people were supposed to use for overland maps in earlier editions, I know in 3e there is no standard, and there was no standard in 2e games I played. You just drew a map and went places on the map using the map, and you didn't worry about whether the overland map was in hexes or squares, because why would that be relevant, you are going from point a to point b.
I agree with your point that hex vs square is not the meaningful choice. But I think that there's more to this than overland travel.

To explain. Within D&D, I understand there are aesthetic and functional reasons for hexes. But whatever standard reasons are given by grognards (to recreate a wargaming feel, as per Outdoor Survival and its featuring in OD&D), these don't really hold up beyond appeals to nostalgia: the aesthetics and function of hex maps can be replicated by other visual means (within reason).

To explain the functional use...
Until I played GMT's Wilderness War, where both sides transform a point-by-point (connected) map by building forts, or burning settlements, and of course troops and station and build up concentration of troops on the map - until I had that experience, I didn't appreciate what a wargaming map (hex based or otherwise) could do for a D&D experience.

Note that this is a far cry from 'hex crawling', where the party moves from one hex to the next, but the emerging map - as you discover the map, and colour in white hexes - does not relate to this resource metagame. This was particularly egregious when Paizo did Kingmaker, which featured a too limited approach to capture this idea in modern D&D.

So to my mind, hex maps (or their functional equivalents) are not there to facilitate or better simulate overland travel - any type of (superimposed) grid or ruler can accomplish the same - but to better track resource management, because places on the map now become discrete units, sorted by main terrain type and contained resources. And for that you don't just want to have a super imposed grid (hex or square), as Greenwood suggested in 1e FR, but you need a map that is more akin to a playing board.
Last edited by Windjammer on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by name_here »

Kaelik wrote:
Blicero wrote:If travel consists of more than just "going from point a to point b", it's useful to have hexes.
What possible more are you going to use an overland campaign map for?
"Go from point A to point B while avoiding point C." "Calculate how long it takes to go from point A to point B."
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Post by Blicero »

Kaelik wrote:
Blicero wrote:If travel consists of more than just "going from point a to point b", it's useful to have hexes.
What possible more are you going to use an overland campaign map for?
"Discover the precise location of point b, which is somewhere near point a." "Estimate how much force the ruler of point c can bring to bear on disturbances in point d."
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Post by Kaelik »

name_here wrote:"Go from point A to point B while avoiding point C." "Calculate how long it takes to go from point A to point B."
Those are both things that are just as easy on a map without a hex grid.
Blicero wrote:"Discover the precise location of point b, which is somewhere near point a." "Estimate how much force the ruler of point c can bring to bear on disturbances in point d."
The first of those is clearly just as easy without a grid, the second is more what I expected, people trying to pretend their game isn't D&D and that no one was any actual abilities.
Windjammer wrote:To explain the functional use...
Until I played GMT's Wilderness War, where both sides transform a point-by-point (connected) map by building forts, or burning settlements, and of course troops and station and build up concentration of troops on the map - until I had that experience, I didn't appreciate what a wargaming map (hex based or otherwise) could do for a D&D experience.
That doesn't really make sense in a D&D game. "Owning" a hex means nothing if you don't have the labor to exploit it, and if you do have the labor to exploit it, then the hexes are meaningless, since the labor isn't in the hex, and is based out of a nearby town.

I mean, unless you are actually wargaming, it sure seems unhelpful at best, and I have no idea why you would choose D&D to simulate your tiny men vs their tiny men fights.
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Post by Username17 »

Having discreet units of territory is a prerequisite for having a half-way decent kingdom management minigame. Having a half-way decent kingdom management minigame is a prerequisite for having "being a lord" to be a meaningful ability in mid-high-level play. And as that is one of the few abilities that grognards will let fighters actually have, you're going to need a robust set of hex rules for a hypothetical D&D edition where we give an actual shit about Paladins and Barbarians at high level.

D&D 5e is not that edition. It has hexes just because grognards remember that there were hexes in the beforetime, not for any functional reason. But ACKS does better with its hex rules than with the rest of its system. And if I get enough time in between working to actually write again and a collaborator or three who wants to make a fantasy heartbreaker, I would definitely have rules for hexes.

Hexes could have demographics, productivity, and so on. They could generate taxes and troop levies in addition to being things you had to defend in order to continue owning. And this sort of thing would go a long way towards creating a play space for high level warriors to have logistical abilities that people cared about. Which in turn would go a long way towards making people care about high level warriors. But of course 5e doesn't do any of that shit, and I genuinely don't know why I would bother with the hexes instead of just having a regular map and measuring shit with a ruler and a piece of string.

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Post by name_here »

Rulers and pieces of string are annoying and I prefer counting hexes/squares.
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Post by Blicero »

FrankTrollman wrote:But of course 5e doesn't do any of that shit, and I genuinely don't know why I would bother with the hexes instead of just having a regular map and measuring shit with a ruler and a piece of string.
Aside from what name_here said, hexes let you divide regions into zones with distinct chance encounter tables. Hexes with roads are filled with merchant caravans. This swamp hex has swamp drakes and lizardmen. This swamp hex has a black dragon's lair and ROUS.
Kaelik wrote: ...the second is more what I expected, people trying to pretend their game isn't D&D and that no one was any actual abilities.
In 3E, yeah. But I've gotten the impression that tiny men are more useful in 5E, since skeleton hordes are? That doesn't mean their inclusion makes 5E a good game, since it is not. But their inclusion is not an inherently stupid decision.
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Post by Kaelik »

Yeah, it looks like hexes do have some theoretically meaningful effects, just mostly not for games that I want to play.

Certainly to me, it looks like if you are walking along the road, you can have road encounters, and hexes don't make that better. And if you leave the road, then you are in something else and can have those encounters.

I also feel like territory control and resource gathering should be based more local population and abilities, and not on regions. But I guess there could be some purpose to hexes. Also, it definitely looks like 5e hexes are even dumber than Old school hexes, which are sort of dumb on first principles, in the fact that they are old school.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Windjammer »

Kaelik wrote:Also, it definitely looks like 5e hexes are even dumber than Old school hexes, which are sort of dumb on first principles, in the fact that they are old school.
Sure. You can define 'hex fetishism' as the deliberate choice to reduce hexes to an ornamental device stripped of all their core functions.
Mearls introduced hex fetishism to the official D&D product line with 4E's Hammerfast.

Now replace 'hex' with a set of the nouns n designating meaningful core mechanics in D&D, where a necessary condition for 'meaningful' is the facilitation of character-world interaction.

It is then possible to identify 5E as mostly a collection of n-fetishisms.

4e was guilty of a different set of fetishisms. 4E didn't so much map (hitherto) meaningful mechanics onto meaningless ones, but mapped names designating D&D flavour elements with mythological depth onto a mythologically thin and incoherent mess ('re-skinning', 'culture blind fun').

Mathematically, the two types of fetishim are not too dissimilar, though they may enter the game at different junctures (mechanics, lore).
In either case, you take something meaningful and empty it of content; but maintain your cognitive, deliberative, and desiderative attitutde to that something as if it was still meaningful - libidinal transfer. Like a man compensating for the departed of a loved one by beginning to worship her left behind boots instead.

I'm only barely exaggerating here. With 4e, I found most of its endorsements intellectually dishonest. With 5e, I find them disconcerning at a much deeper level, and I find the remaining fanbase of the game alienating. Why fuck a boot and pretend you're having a good time? Fair enough, but don't tell me it's not a boot.
Last edited by Windjammer on Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

5E: The Cargo Cult RPG.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
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