Ek Spee
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Ek Spee
Does experience or 'XP' really work in pen and paper/tabletop gaming?
Assuming a setting where we want a zero to hero progression, I have yet to see a system that actually works. Even then is it really satisfying to just increase stats all the time? That's what xp really amounts to: get points bump up stats, buy abilities, fight harder monsters.
When the GM is told to award a bunch of points based on circumstances, never mind a cherrry on top for 'good roleplaying' (which should be happening anyway), it seems at odds with the fact the GM is the architect of that adventure. XP systems seem to represent an arbitrary series of events - as you'd get in video games - rather than the PC's experiences being the result of whatever the GM has planned (if he for example writes a session with no combat, you get no xp for killling monsters).
It all seems like needless busywork just to either get the players to a point where their characters are interesting or competent, or to create a journey for journey's sake. Most xp systems don't represent anything more than physical improvements, not the impact of experiences emotionally, socially, or even spiritually.
Assuming a setting where we want a zero to hero progression, I have yet to see a system that actually works. Even then is it really satisfying to just increase stats all the time? That's what xp really amounts to: get points bump up stats, buy abilities, fight harder monsters.
When the GM is told to award a bunch of points based on circumstances, never mind a cherrry on top for 'good roleplaying' (which should be happening anyway), it seems at odds with the fact the GM is the architect of that adventure. XP systems seem to represent an arbitrary series of events - as you'd get in video games - rather than the PC's experiences being the result of whatever the GM has planned (if he for example writes a session with no combat, you get no xp for killling monsters).
It all seems like needless busywork just to either get the players to a point where their characters are interesting or competent, or to create a journey for journey's sake. Most xp systems don't represent anything more than physical improvements, not the impact of experiences emotionally, socially, or even spiritually.
Last edited by ghost whistler on Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ek Spee
Generally, no, it doesn't really work. It actually is basically pointless busy work at best and broken bullshit at worst.ghost whistler wrote:Does experience or 'XP' really work in pen and paper/tabletop gaming?
Ostensibly it sort of has about one reason to exist (other than legacy stupidity) as a way of giving something out between discrete levels so players get a vague feeling of advancement...
...but if you actually acknowledged that your XP system wouldn't look like most XP systems look.
It would look more like this...
...which is what I said last time this came up.me wrote:The Gold Star Level Up System
When the group, or even an individual character achieves something arbitrarily interesting the GM may award the players one or more GOLD STARS.
When the group has X gold stars (perhaps one or two per player?) they may cash them in and level all their characters up.
...Thus letting them have some token achievement er... token between levels to let them feel like they are progressing between what still might as well be utterly arbitrary break points in advancement.
It's been talked about a few times.
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Last edited by Hicks on Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stuff I've MadeLokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed
I have been working on the EXP system for my heartbreaker and have come to pretty much the same conclusion.
The easiest thing I have been able to come up with is half stolen from Paizo's Mythic and is just what is stated above. I know others have done it and earlier this is just where I encountered it.
Basically you have "milestones" and after so many of them all characters involved level up. How many it takes is based on the level you are at.
I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
I am also trying to make magic items more (In my opinion) fun again by removing all items that give flat bonuses and all feats that do the same. This means that there will be less treasure and therefore less EXP if I tied it to treasure.
The best solution I could come up with, and yes I know, I am not the greatest, or even necessarily a good game designer, was to insert a paragraph in the advancement section allowing players to lobby the MC for a milestone point and if the decision is unanimous get one. The next milestone has to come from the MC in my system but I am thinking of removing that.
The easiest thing I have been able to come up with is half stolen from Paizo's Mythic and is just what is stated above. I know others have done it and earlier this is just where I encountered it.
Basically you have "milestones" and after so many of them all characters involved level up. How many it takes is based on the level you are at.
I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
I am also trying to make magic items more (In my opinion) fun again by removing all items that give flat bonuses and all feats that do the same. This means that there will be less treasure and therefore less EXP if I tied it to treasure.
The best solution I could come up with, and yes I know, I am not the greatest, or even necessarily a good game designer, was to insert a paragraph in the advancement section allowing players to lobby the MC for a milestone point and if the decision is unanimous get one. The next milestone has to come from the MC in my system but I am thinking of removing that.
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
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Covent wrote:I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
Doesn't matter how good a set of rules you write, an asshole GM will find a way to fuck them up. You can gain something by worrying about inexperienced GMs, because they will presumably trust the rules, but in the words of Bronn, there's no cure for being a [EDITED].
Last edited by Omegonthesane on Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ek Spee
ghost whistler wrote:Even then is it really satisfying to just increase stats all the time? That's what xp really amounts to: get points bump up stats, buy abilities, fight harder monsters.
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Don't. I almost exclusively run and play in no leveling games now because their level of power gain feels the most satisfying and natural. If you play an 8th level character in a D&D game for 3 months you will learn the character better, get items, learn tricks, learn synergy with your party's tricks and how you can optimize as a group, get resources, get use-limited items you store, get allies, and probably even trade out a couple spells or feats to tighten up your build a bit.Covent wrote:I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
By the end of 3 months of gaming your end character will be able to beat the shit out of your starting character and I've found that that rate of advancement is actually highly satisfying to players and the story alike.
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Thanks and *Nod*. My last game which did what you describe along with the recent spate of Paizratta is what made me really start working on my heartbreaker. All of the players and myself did enjoy milestone based leveling more.Dean wrote:Don't. I almost exclusively run and play in no leveling games now because their level of power gain feels the most satisfying and natural. If you play an 8th level character in a D&D game for 3 months you will learn the character better, get items, learn tricks, learn synergy with your party's tricks and how you can optimize as a group, get resources, get use-limited items you store, get allies, and probably even trade out a couple spells or feats to tighten up your build a bit.Covent wrote:I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
By the end of 3 months of gaming your end character will be able to beat the shit out of your starting character and I've found that that rate of advancement is actually highly satisfying to players and the story alike.
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
So as a reason why we should not be terrified that the DM will be an asshole and do something we don't want him to do, you tell us that you totally do that thing that we don't want to have happen.Dean wrote:Don't. I almost exclusively run and play in no leveling games now because their level of power gain feels the most satisfying and natural. If you play an 8th level character in a D&D game for 3 months you will learn the character better, get items, learn tricks, learn synergy with your party's tricks and how you can optimize as a group, get resources, get use-limited items you store, get allies, and probably even trade out a couple spells or feats to tighten up your build a bit.Covent wrote:I am worried about douchebag MCs "Hurr Hurring" "Nope no milestone for you" but I do hate EXP based on monster kills or treasure gain.
By the end of 3 months of gaming your end character will be able to beat the shit out of your starting character and I've found that that rate of advancement is actually highly satisfying to players and the story alike.
You might have missed like eight steps.
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I don't play games like DnD so i don't play games that have that zero to hero progression. I have no object to that in principle. But i am just not sure it works. You might as well say each player gets 1xp per session and then after a suitable number of sessions (as reflected in the cost of advancements) they can gain an advancement or improvement or whatever.
I notice that the FFG star wars games also have xp, but they also have Talent Trees. I don't see the point of requiring both. This means that not only do you have to unlock prior talents to get new ones along the tree, but you have to buy them with xp. Things like that seem utterly pointless. Why not just say, after each adventure pick a new Talent (stats and skills notwithstanding).
I notice that the FFG star wars games also have xp, but they also have Talent Trees. I don't see the point of requiring both. This means that not only do you have to unlock prior talents to get new ones along the tree, but you have to buy them with xp. Things like that seem utterly pointless. Why not just say, after each adventure pick a new Talent (stats and skills notwithstanding).
Re: Ek Spee
Yes. Extremely so.ghost whistler wrote: Even then is it really satisfying to just increase stats all the time?
You see, the human brain evolved to accumulate stuff. Getting more stuff feels good. More money. More stats. More whatever. This is the same mechanism behind the rush associated with shopping, and with gambling, among other things.
Increasing your stats causes your brain to release dopamine. This effect is not unlike the dopamine release that accompanies cocaine consumption.
There's a reason why Everquest was commonly called Evercrack.
The stat increases are literally addictive.
Browser and mobile games these days are designed to take advantage of that by offering meaningless achievements as well as absurdly high stat progressions (and the ability to pay to make your stats higher faster).
Cookie Clicker and its relatives turned this into an art. Yo've got one completely meaningless number and the object of the game is to make it absurdly huge. There is no ending, the number just keeps getting bigger and bigger until your computer's memory overflows. And you can pay money to increase the rate at which it gets bigger.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've found that getting new abilities is pretty addictive too even if you have no plans to use them. This makes 3.x Wizards potentially amazingly fun if you toss them a few new spells every adventure even when they are not leveling or changing their number of spell slots or daily set-ups.
The failure point of just about every RPG I've played happens when I've played with all of the abilities and know how they work, and then I just quit unless there is a really compelling story.
The failure point of just about every RPG I've played happens when I've played with all of the abilities and know how they work, and then I just quit unless there is a really compelling story.
Agreed. I can get a rush out of racking up completely useless spells or long lists of craft or knowledge sub-skills that are essentially useless, just for the sense of my character becoming a greater wizard/crafter/scholar bit by bit, so long as I'm not asked to sacrifice real character power to make that happen.K wrote:I've found that getting new abilities is pretty addictive too even if you have no plans to use them.
That's why I like the idea of using XP to buy horizontal power-ups and leave (Power-)Level as a tool to measure a character's vertical power.K wrote:I've found that getting new abilities is pretty addictive too even if you have no plans to use them.
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nockermensch wrote:Advantage will lead to dicepools in D&D. Remember, you read this here first!