Spirit Shaman

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Kaelik
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Spirit Shaman

Post by Kaelik »

The Spirit Shaman

"No he isn't imaginary! My Spirit Guide is real, and he really loves me."

The Spirit Shaman is the team player of the natural world. They work with spirits great and small, the incorporeal spark of life within all things. From pacts and oaths, the shaman gains the camaraderie and power of these beings, allowing them to etch their will within the worlds of the living and the dead. As such, they are divine casters of a different bent than clerics and druids. While the cleric's powers come through faith and the druid's comes through yiffing communion, the shaman is more pragmatic, gaining their powers from whatever is nearby.

Spirit Shamans are all about that Wisdom.

Hit Points: 1d6
Skill Points: 4+Int
Base Attack Bonus: Poor
Saving Throws: Good Reflex and Will
Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Light and Medium Armour, and non Great Shields.
Class Skills: Jump, Tumble, Climb, Escape Artist, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Any), Spot, Spellcraft, Listen, Profession, Ride, Survival.
Level:Abilities:1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th
01Spellcasting, Spirit Guide, Detect Spirits, Resist Nature's Lure2--------
02Woodland Stride3--------
03See the Unseen42-------
04Trackless Step43-------
05432------
06433------
074332-----
084333-----
0943332----
10Answering Spirits44333----
11443332---
12444333---
134443332--
144444333--
15Live Forever44443332-
1644444333-
17444443332
18444444333
19444444444
20555555555

Class Features
[spoiler]
Spellcasting: The spirit shaman casts divine spells drawn from the Druid list. Once between each sun set, a spirit shaman may commune with the spirit world for an hour. During this communion, the Spirit Shaman may select daily spells known from the Druid list as per the table. The Spirit Shaman may then spontaneously cast from those spells at will. Applying metamagic never takes any extra time (Presumably you will use Alpha Metamagic). The Spirit Shaman's save DCs are Wisdom based.

Spirit Guide: The Spirit Shaman has a spirit guide, some kind of freaky critter that guides them from the Ethereal plane. The spirit guide has the form of a monster with a CR equal to the spirit shaman's level, but always has an Intelligence equal to the spirit shaman's Wisdom and has the same alignment as they do. The Spirit Guide is also treated as having all knowledge skills trained but no ranks. It does however gain an untyped bonus to all knowledge rolls equal to the Spirit Shamans level. The spirit guide exists only on the ethereal plane, but the spirit shaman can see and hear it as if it were on the same plane as they are. The spirit guide takes a new form every time the spirit shaman changes level, chosen by the DM. When he first encounters his Spirit Guide, and again each time the Spirit Guide changes form, the Spirit Shaman may choose one skill that thematically makes sense for the Spirit Guide to provide, the Spirit Shaman is treated as having max ranks in that skill.

While theoretically the Spirit Guide can come to the Material Plane, doing so severs it's connection with the Spirit Shaman, and it becomes an average creature of it's type that does not recall it's previous existence. As such, Spirit Guides almost never do so.

If the Spirit Guide comes to the material plane or dies, the Spirit Shaman can get a new one by meditating for 24 hours. If it dies, the Spirit Shaman can go to the Ethereal plane and reincarnate or raise and reestablish it's connection after 24 hours of meditation.

Detect Spirits (Su): A Spirit Shaman knows when there are incorporeal creatures, astral creatures, ethereal creatures, or fey within 60 feet of themselves. One of these creatures that has remained within 60' of the spirit shaman for a second round has their five foot square known by the spirit shaman. A spirit shaman knows roughly how many hit dice such a creature has if they stay within 60 feet for a third consecutive round.

Resist Nature's Lure (Ex): A spirit shaman gains a +4 bonus on saves against the spell like abilities of Fey.

Woodland Stride (Su): At 2nd level, a spirit shaman can move through natural surroundings unimpeded. The spirit shaman treats difficult terrain caused by vegetation as if it was not difficult terrain.

See the Unseen (Su): A spirit shaman of 3rd level sees invisible, astral, and ethereal things within 60 feet of themselves.

Trackless Step (Ex): A Spirit Shaman of 4th level leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. He may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Answering Spirits (Su): At 10th level, a spirit shaman can ask questions of the spirit world that will actually be answered. This is like contact other plane, but there is no chance of going insane. The shaman may ask a number of questions per day equal to their Wisdom modifier and the answer is always correct except if the spirits can't know that information.

Live Forever (Ex): A 15th level spirit shaman lives forever and never suffers any penalties for old age, nor loses any XP for being reincarnated. Also, their type changes to Fey.[/spoiler]
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Blicero »

Given that there are already at least three classes on this forum called "spirit shaman", why should there be another?
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Post by RelentlessImp »

The Spirit Guide makes me want to write a story about a Spirit Shaman and his wise-cracking spirit guide.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Blicero wrote:Given that there are already at least three classes on this forum called "spirit shaman", why should there be another?
Because Spirit Shaman is the appropriate name for a Druid list nature based caster with a pet that follows him around on the ethereal plain giving advice, and none of the other three use the casting mechanic I am suggesting, which I obviously believe fits the concept of Spirit Shaman just as well if not better than the more common Beguiler based casting.

I mean, do you complain when people make a Shadowcaster class with an entirely different set of mechanics, but the same name and theme?
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Post by RelentlessImp »

It was a cold, rainy day in the City of Towers. I had just finished a job investigating the death of a lightning rail tycoon and was enjoying a rare break in the private dick business, kicked back in my office, smoking a stogie and enjoying a bottle of single malt. That's when she walked in.

Blonde. It's a constant in life; the color of flax always heralds trouble, and I got the feeling this dame was no exception. I could only describe her as a bombshell; legs up to my knees, dressed in a slinky red number that should have been illegal for the things it could do to a man. She gave me the lowdown in a voice that could finish the job the dress started.

Her husband had been killed under mysterious circumstances, and she was the Watch's prime suspect as she had been the first to find the body. Normally, it'd be an internal matter for House Jorasco, but her husband had been marked by the Blood of Vol, and she was facing inquiries into her relationship with the cult. Jorasco had put her out, and she was on her own with nowhere left to turn.

That's where I fit in. On the fringe, the edge cases where nothing else makes sense. And now, I was out here, feeling the rain splatter on my metal casing, watching the tea house attached to the bridge across the way. On my left, my very own shoulder angel, pretending to be a cat. I couldn't get rid of it; I wouldn't want to, anyways. My connection to the Spirit World was, frankly, a little terrifying, and got me looks when I talked to the devil on my shoulder.

"Ain't never easy when dames are involved, Dick," came Urtol's voice. "You ain't even got a dick and you're still thinkin' with it. I swear, why keep me around if you're not gonna listen to my advice?"

Urtol had spent the entire meeting screaming at me not to take the case, and frankly, I agreed with him. This had bad news written all over it. Why take it, then?

"It's three hundred gee-pee, Urt, and I got stiffed on the rail job to the tune of a hundred and fifty 'cause the perp got himself killed on the rail when one of the carriages came by. I can make rent for a couple of months, sure, but it ain't gonna carry me through the year like I was plannin'."

"You automatons are all the same," Urt sighed as he put himself on my shoulder and started sharpening his claws, seeming not to care that his claws just passed right through them. "Nothin' but cold logic. How'd I ever get stuck with you?"

"Just unlucky, I guess. Now pipe down. Somethin's happenin' over at the tea room."

"Whatever, Dick."


Coming Soon*: Dick Warforged, Spirit Investigator.

*Not actually coming soon.
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Post by Zaranthan »

RelentlessImp wrote:*Not actually coming soon.
Shame. I would pay to read that. And by pay I mean I'd upvote the hell out of it on fanfiction.net, because I'm currently on a ramen & three-water-grog budget.
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Post by Kaelik »

I'm so fucking sad that most of the comments are about how much people want a story about a crazy guy, because I literally copied like 70% of the ability from Frank's Spirit Shaman class from six years ago, so apparently no one cares about the actual casting mechanic that makes the actual class.

I choose to believe that I am the best in the world at writing quotes for classes.

Although, I guess if no one cares about the casting mechanic, that means it is good? Because if it was super shit or super OP, someone would tell me?
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

Been collecting my thoughts on the casting mechanic. The Druid list has a lot of goodies, but it's not actually overpowered without the other core mechanic of the Druid - IE, wildshaping. I'm probably the biggest proponent you will ever find of ending the 5-minute workday (it's a thematic issue for me) and I still would feel somewhat uneasy about letting someone have unlimited spells/day - when compared to existing casting classes that use Vancian magic.

As a corollary, though, I would be perfectly fine letting this into a game with a Conduit or Hicks Mage that has Expert Spheres, a Kaelik Wizard, a Tome Samurai, one of the umpteen-billion Flavor Mages, and a Frank/Suulin Sorcerer. Once you move the playing field away from Vancian casting mechanics and on to more interesting ones, this is pretty viable, and it'd be fun to see how the landscape changes once the 5-minute workday is done away with.

I would suggest limiting it to Core spells and 1-2 splat spells per spell level, but that's just me. The casting mechanic works fine for me.
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Post by Hicks »

Ok, I get it now. It's not super clear that the class table isn't "spells per day" like nearly every class ever printed everywhere with that format; the table is "spells known off the druid list that can be changed once between every sunrise and sunset", which is an entirely different beast altogether now.
Everybody wrote:"It's an entirety different beast."
That is... gonna take a while to evaluate that. Totally rebuilding an at will spellcaster twice a day with the druid list. Huh.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

RelentlessImp wrote:I would suggest limiting it to Core spells and 1-2 splat spells per spell level, but that's just me. The casting mechanic works fine for me.
That would suck monkey nuts, because in practice 1-2 core spells are obviously better attack spells or buffs, so you would have the same attack/buffs spells as without a limit, but less utility on a class that will already be buffing itself and attacking, but will miss out on the ability to make a bunch of magic stag mounts when appropriate.
Hicks wrote:Totally rebuilding an at will spellcaster twice a day with the druid list. Huh.
Once a day.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by Koumei »

I was not expecting you to create another Tome class. This is a pleasant surprise.

Spellcasting looks decent, and is obviously the key feature. While I'm sure there exist some Druid spells that break the game when used at will, those are mostly edge cases. Nobody cares if you decide to cast Barkskin or Ice Storm all day long. So that's superduper, I guess.

The spirit companion is an interesting extra. I assume the point is not to look for some critter that has cross-planar attacks (so it can contribute to every fight ever), but instead you get a weird monster thing each level that gives you a skill and provides defence against ghosts/Gith Astral raiding parties/Ethereal Dragons?
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Post by Kaelik »

The idea of the companion is in fact to have protection against Ethereal Dragons, and to provide DM exposition guidelines.

I imagine it being pretty much controlled by the DM as much as the player if not more. The form is chosen by the DM, so even if you find a creature that attacks from the ethereal, the DM can just not have the Guide take that form.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Kaelik wrote:I'm so fucking sad that most of the comments are about how much people want a story about a crazy guy, because I literally copied like 70% of the ability from Frank's Spirit Shaman class from six years ago, so apparently no one cares about the actual casting mechanic that makes the actual class.

I choose to believe that I am the best in the world at writing quotes for classes.

Although, I guess if no one cares about the casting mechanic, that means it is good? Because if it was super shit or super OP, someone would tell me?
Your class is very poorly edited, because you don't make it explicitly clear what the casting mechanic can actually do.....especially on the table. I looked at this thing, and became very confused.
Hicks wrote:Ok, I get it now. It's not super clear that the class table isn't "spells per day" like nearly every class ever printed everywhere with that format; the table is "spells known off the druid list that can be changed once between every sunrise and sunset", which is an entirely different beast altogether now.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


That is... gonna take a while to evaluate that. Totally rebuilding an at will spellcaster twice a day with the druid list. Huh.
Koumei wrote:I was not expecting you to create another Tome class. This is a pleasant surprise.

Spellcasting looks decent, and is obviously the key feature. While I'm sure there exist some Druid spells that break the game when used at will, those are mostly edge cases. Nobody cares if you decide to cast Barkskin or Ice Storm all day long. So that's superduper, I guess.

The spirit companion is an interesting extra. I assume the point is not to look for some critter that has cross-planar attacks (so it can contribute to every fight ever), but instead you get a weird monster thing each level that gives you a skill and provides defence against ghosts/Gith Astral raiding parties/Ethereal Dragons?
Other posters here are talking about you being able to use spells at-will. I didn't pick that up from your class, since the language is extremely vague. Does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast? Does the Spirit Shaman otherwise have the same number of "Spells per Day" as the Druid?

Kaelik wrote:Spellcasting: The spirit shaman casts divine spells drawn from the Druid list. Once between each sun set, a spirit shaman may commune with the spirit world for an hour. During this communion, the Spirit Shaman may select daily spells known from the Druid list as per the table. The Spirit Shaman may then spontaneously cast from those spells at will. Applying metamagic never takes any extra time (Presumably you will use Alpha Metamagic). The Spirit Shaman's save DCs are Wisdom based.
Ok, help me here:

What does "daily spells known" mean here? "Spells per Day" and "Spells Known" have very specific meanings in D&D 3.5. When I read this, I became very confused, and that type of confusion very rarely happens to me when evaluating official classes for D&D 3.5.

Does this table represent "Spells per Day", with the Spirit Shaman being able to spontaneously cast all his spells per day from the entire Druid spell list? Or does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast?

Your central casting mechanic is confusing as Hell.
Kaelik wrote:Spirit Guide: The Spirit Shaman has a spirit guide, some kind of freaky critter that guides them from the Ethereal plane. The spirit guide has the form of a monster with a CR equal to the spirit shaman's level, but always has an Intelligence equal to the spirit shaman's Wisdom and has the same alignment as they do. The Spirit Guide is also treated as having all knowledge skills trained but no ranks. It does however gain an untyped bonus to all knowledge rolls equal to the Spirit Shamans level. The spirit guide exists only on the ethereal plane, but the spirit shaman can see and hear it as if it were on the same plane as they are. The spirit guide takes a new form every time the spirit shaman changes level, chosen by the DM. When he first encounters his Spirit Guide, and again each time the Spirit Guide changes form, the Spirit Shaman may choose one skill that thematically makes sense for the Spirit Guide to provide, the Spirit Shaman is treated as having max ranks in that skill.

While theoretically the Spirit Guide can come to the Material Plane, doing so severs it's connection with the Spirit Shaman, and it becomes an average creature of it's type that does not recall it's previous existence. As such, Spirit Guides almost never do so.
Ok, I have questions:

(1.) If this class feature significantly increases the Spirit Guide's Intelligence score, does it also receive extra skill points?

(2.) Would an Intelligence increase, plus this Knowledge ability....give your Spirit Guide an increased Challenge Rating?

(3.) Can the Spirit Guide can attacked on the Ethereal Plane?

(4.) If the Spirit Guide can be attacked, can it also be destroyed? And if it can be destroyed, what happens then?

(5.) Why does the Spirit Guide change form every time the Spirit Shaman changes level? And how is its semi-constant change in form supposed to be thematically appropriate?
Kaelik wrote:Detect Spirits (Su): A Spirit Shaman knows when there are incorporeal creatures, astral creatures, ethereal creatures, or fey within 60 feet of themselves. One of these creatures that has remained within 60' of the spirit shaman for a second round has their five foot square known by the spirit shaman. A spirit shaman knows roughly how many hit dice such a creature has if they stay within 60 feet for a third consecutive round.
I guess this is ok, but something feels missing.
Kaelik wrote:Resist Nature's Lure (Ex): A spirit shaman gains a +4 bonus on saves against the spell like abilities of Fey.
Ok, but shouldn't this ability include resisting the abilities of spirit beings as well?
Kaelik wrote:Woodland Stride (Su): At 2nd level, a spirit shaman can move through natural surroundings unimpeded. The spirit shaman treats difficult terrain caused by vegetation as if it was not difficult terrain.
Ok.
Kaelik wrote:See the Unseen (Su): A spirit shaman of 3rd level sees invisible, astral, and ethereal things within 60 feet of themselves.
Fine.
Kaelik wrote:Answering Spirits (Su): At 10th level, a spirit shaman can ask questions of the spirit world that will actually be answered. This is like contact other plane, but there is no chance of going insane. The shaman may ask a number of questions per day equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Ok.
Kaelik wrote:Live Forever (Ex): A 15th level spirit shaman lives forever and never suffers any penalties for old age, nor loses any XP for being reincarnated. Also, their type changes to Fey.
Why only Fey? "Spirits" have multiple classifications:
Spirit Shaman, from Complete Divine wrote:Several of the spirit shaman's abilities affect spirits. For purposes of the spirit shaman's ability, a "spirit" includes any of the following creatures:

All incorporeal undead
All fey
All elementals
Creatures in astral form or with astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on the Astral Plane)
All creatures of the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures)
Spirit folk and telthors (see Unapproachable East)
Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7).


In the spirit shaman's worldview, elementals and fey are simply spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the dead.
This class has potential, but it's poorly edited.

Additionally, this class has way too many empty levels. I am aware of the fact that WoTC is guilty of this mistake themselves, but it's still annoying.
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Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Your class is very poorly edited, because you don't make it explicitly clear what the casting mechanic can actually do.....especially on the table. I looked at this thing, and became very confused.
My class is edited perfectly fine, and it is very very clear what the class does to all non idiots who read the actual words.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Other posters here are talking about you being able to use spells at-will. I didn't pick that up from your class, since the language is extremely vague. Does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast? Does the Spirit Shaman otherwise have the same number of "Spells per Day" as the Druid?
Let's see if we can possibly figure out where those posters got the idea that the casting was at will shall we?
Kaelik wrote:Spellcasting: The spirit shaman casts divine spells drawn from the Druid list. Once between each sun set, a spirit shaman may commune with the spirit world for an hour. During this communion, the Spirit Shaman may select daily spells known from the Druid list as per the table. The Spirit Shaman may then spontaneously cast from those spells at will. Applying metamagic never takes any extra time (Presumably you will use Alpha Metamagic). The Spirit Shaman's save DCs are Wisdom based.
Oh look. I think I found it.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:What does "daily spells known" mean here? "Spells per Day" and "Spells Known" have very specific meanings in D&D 3.5.
And daily spells known is not either of those terms, so it must obviously mean something else, so you can look at the actual words, and figure out that it means spells known that day.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:When I read this, I became very confused, and that type of confusion very rarely happens to me when evaluating official classes for D&D 3.5.
Your tiny little brain barely managing to comprehend most of the extremely simplistic and duplicative classes that are official 3.5 material is not a strong selling point, you shouldn't lead with it.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Does this table represent "Spells per Day", with the Spirit Shaman being able to spontaneously cast all his spells per day from the entire Druid spell list? Or does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast?
It represents the thing that the spellcasting ability says it represents.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Additionally, this class has way too many empty levels. I am aware of the fact that WoTC is guilty of this mistake themselves, but it's still annoying.
This class has zero empty levels. At every level you gain at least one, usually more, additional at will spell known. Just because you want a bunch of arbitrary tiny fiddly shit class features written in so that there is some other class feature besides the actually important and balanced spellcasting, doesn't mean that those levels are dead.
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The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Your class is very poorly edited, because you don't make it explicitly clear what the casting mechanic can actually do.....especially on the table. I looked at this thing, and became very confused.
My class is edited perfectly fine, and it is very very clear what the class does to all non idiots who read the actual words.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Other posters here are talking about you being able to use spells at-will. I didn't pick that up from your class, since the language is extremely vague. Does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast? Does the Spirit Shaman otherwise have the same number of "Spells per Day" as the Druid?
Let's see if we can possibly figure out where those posters got the idea that the casting was at will shall we?
Kaelik wrote:Spellcasting: The spirit shaman casts divine spells drawn from the Druid list. Once between each sun set, a spirit shaman may commune with the spirit world for an hour. During this communion, the Spirit Shaman may select daily spells known from the Druid list as per the table. The Spirit Shaman may then spontaneously cast from those spells at will. Applying metamagic never takes any extra time (Presumably you will use Alpha Metamagic). The Spirit Shaman's save DCs are Wisdom based.
Oh look. I think I found it.
Ok, I missed the "at-will" part. Fair enough. But you absolutely did not label that in your spell table, so it was easy to miss. Hence, POORLY-EDITED.

So....basically, you can choose multiple spells from the entire Druid spell list (splatbooks included), and cast them at-will every day?

So a 5th-level Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast four 1st-level spells, three 2nd-level spells, and two 3rd-level spells.....at-will?

So these spells are not fixed, and you can change them day-to-day?

Why this casting mechanic? I see no thematic or game mechanic justification for it. None.

I don't know any classes that can do this. This looks unbalanced, compared to core classes....even if we take shit like Wild Shape into account. I know that most of the Druid spell list is not utterly campaign-busting, but this honestly seems too powerful.....and even more importantly, unnecessary. Why does the Spirit Shaman have more spell power than every spell-casting character class in the game?

You're basically jettisoning the entire resource management aspect of D&D, specifically for your class.

Why?
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:What does "daily spells known" mean here? "Spells per Day" and "Spells Known" have very specific meanings in D&D 3.5.
And daily spells known is not either of those terms, so it must obviously mean something else, so you can look at the actual words, and figure out that it means spells known that day.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:When I read this, I became very confused, and that type of confusion very rarely happens to me when evaluating official classes for D&D 3.5.
Your tiny little brain barely managing to comprehend most of the extremely simplistic and duplicative classes that are official 3.5 material is not a strong selling point, you shouldn't lead with it.
The responsibility is on you to be clear and concise. Do not blame me for your personal shortcomings.

I never get confused when I read the game mechanics for WoTC classes. The fault is yours; the responsibility is yours, when your language is unclear. You won't take the world by storm with inept writing like this.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Does this table represent "Spells per Day", with the Spirit Shaman being able to spontaneously cast all his spells per day from the entire Druid spell list? Or does the list in the table represent the number of Druid spells per day that the Spirit Shaman can spontaneously cast?
It represents the thing that the spellcasting ability says it represents.
For fuck's sake, don't be so defensive. If you can't clearly explain your own game mechanic, then you fail.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Additionally, this class has way too many empty levels. I am aware of the fact that WoTC is guilty of this mistake themselves, but it's still annoying.
This class has zero empty levels. At every level you gain at least one, usually more, additional at will spell known. Just because you want a bunch of arbitrary tiny fiddly shit class features written in so that there is some other class feature besides the actually important and balanced spellcasting, doesn't mean that those levels are dead.
Look, I tried to be nice....but I'll just say it:

Your class is boring. And not only is it boring, but it's not particularly well-edited. And there isn't even any thematic or game mechanic justification for your casting mechanic.

And I notice that you didn't address my issues with the Spirit Guide either. :nonono:

Like I said, "poorly edited".
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by erik »

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Oh SL, you are now learning that posting when butthurt lessens reading comprehension and just makes butthurt worse.

At Will doesn't need to be in a table because why the hell would it be? The very first paragraph in spoilered text explicitly explains what the table means and how spellcasting works. It is decidedly more simple than most casting methods and really easy to understand.

Just because you cannot read doesn't mean something is poorly written. You came into this thread still butthurt and hoping to take Kaelik down a peg, thinking you had a gotcha because you didn't understand something. So you own-goaled yourself and just want to keep kicking in the same direction.

I'll be charitable and be moving on from all your baseless complaints about editing, conciseness and what have you since it has been made abundantly clear that the problem was in the reader not the writer.

The complaints about skills seem bizarre. The companion is not noted to have any skill ranks at all. Just training in all knowledge skills and a bonus thereto.

The change of type to Fey is because he's a fuckin Spirit Shaman not a Shaman Spirit. This doesn't need justification to people without a cursed axe of stupidity to grind.


There are gems on the Druid list that can be problematic as at will spells:
• Fire Seeds
• Heal
But that's talking level 11+, so I don't care overly much about that. All in all the casting mechanic is going to be strong, but not hella-strong. Considering that's the meat of what this class can do, that seems fine.

I'd green light this class for play, Tome game or not.

In a Tome game, especially for a new player it is good since it's easy to understand and play with.

In a non-tome game it would be comparable to other well-played casters, but on easy mode since you don't have to look too hard to find ways to shine (so will be viewed as very strong since only a few people would fail to play them strongly). Spamming summoned creatures or evocations/walls can be fun.

The class isn't boring, it's all-spellcasting all the time for class features, but spells are fun. I do wonder about an ethereal companion being the more abusive thing since you can scout everything. Maybe give it a range limit for leaving your presence.

There's not a lot of downside to getting a prestige class, but that's no sin.

Remember, friends don't let friends post butthurt.
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Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Ok, I missed the "at-will" part. Fair enough. But you absolutely did not label that in your spell table, so it was easy to miss. Hence, POORLY-EDITED.
As erik has explained, there is no reason for the table to be labeled like that. There is one table, and the spellcasting ability explains what it means. If the table was labeled using WotC conventions it would say "daily spells known" and you still would have missed the at will aspect, because that wouldn't be stated in the table. You are basically demanding that I copy the entire spellcasting description minus save DCs and put it at the top of the table, but there is no reason to actually do that.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Why this casting mechanic? I see no thematic or game mechanic justification for it. None.
I see no thematic or game mechanic justification for Wizards spellcasting either. I know enough information not provided in the books to know about Vancian casting, and I know enough material from the books to see a game mechanic justification, but neither one is explained in the class. They can only be inferred from the larger context.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I don't know any classes that can do this. This looks unbalanced, compared to core classes....even if we take shit like Wild Shape into account. I know that most of the Druid spell list is not utterly campaign-busting, but this honestly seems too powerful
Unsurprisingly, my touchstone for balance is completely independent of your vague "seeming" with no basis to back it up. For example, I have a level 5 Spirit Shaman, and while, as of with moment, we haven't even finished the first adventuring day, so far his single largest contribution has been saving the party 700gp by acting as a faster wand of Lesser Vigor.

In combat I have cast Icelance 3 times, Kelpstrand once. It sure looks like the at will spellcasting isn't going to outshine other full casters or the Tome Fighter in the party. In practice, while I should never end up being the reason we rest, it is highly likely that on a four encounter workday I will not be looking more impressive than anyone else. This is the type of thing that I already was able to figure out from looking over the Druid list.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:.....and even more importantly, unnecessary. Why does the Spirit Shaman have more spell power than every spell-casting character class in the game?
He doesn't.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You're basically jettisoning the entire resource management aspect of D&D, specifically for your class.

Why?
Look kid, see that stickied link at the top, Tome Community Material Link Repository? Read through some of that before you start whining about at will casting. We have already made at least 20 thematic casters with at will casting that I like. There are four cold mage classes that have at will casting, there are shadowcasters, there are fire mages, storm mages, time mages, teleport mages, force mages, elemental mages. If there is a theme, there is an at will casting class using that theme.

Except, not really for nature mages. Until now.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The responsibility is on you to be clear and concise. Do not blame me for your personal shortcomings.
I was clear and concise. You failed to read (part of) the description. That is not a problem I can solve. That is 100% your problem, and zero percent my problem.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I never get confused when I read the game mechanics for WoTC classes. The fault is yours; the responsibility is yours, when your language is unclear. You won't take the world by storm with inept writing like this.
If I pick half of a sentence of any wotc casting class to ignore, I can make it confusing what they do too. My writing is not inept because you failed to read, that is your inept reading.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:For fuck's sake, don't be so defensive. If you can't clearly explain your own game mechanic, then you fail.
I did clearly explain my own game mechanic. I am emphasizing how incredibly obvious what the table represents is if you read the description. Literally 100% of people who read the description will know what it means.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Look, I tried to be nice....but I'll just say it:

Your class is boring. And not only is it boring, but it's not particularly well-edited. And there isn't even any thematic or game mechanic justification for your casting mechanic.
If you think choosing what spells to know, and then choosing what spells to cast is boring, but you think Trackless Step and Woodland Immunity are interesting, then you are completely wrong, and you are also boring.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

erik wrote:Image

Oh SL, you are now learning that posting when butthurt lessens reading comprehension and just makes butthurt worse.

At Will doesn't need to be in a table because why the hell would it be? The very first paragraph in spoilered text explicitly explains what the table means and how spellcasting works. It is decidedly more simple than most casting methods and really easy to understand.
Why? You have to ask why? If the table said something like, "Spells Cast At-Will"....there would be less ambiguity.

Any class I've ever read, takes issues like this into account. Kaelik is posting this for public consumption, so I am assuming this is also intended to be understood by people that are not part of the dysfunctional Denner Hivemind Collective.

And furthermore, if they're cast "at-will"....does that mean that these are spell-like abilities or actual spells?

I've heard of spell-like abilities being cast at-will, but never....spells.
erik wrote:Just because you cannot read doesn't mean something is poorly written. You came into this thread still butthurt and hoping to take Kaelik down a peg, thinking you had a gotcha because you didn't understand something. So you own-goaled yourself and just want to keep kicking in the same direction./quote]
Kaelik isn't capable of being taken down a peg, because he's blissfully unaware of how obnoxiously stupid he is. And you Denners are very tribal in your defense of one another, because of how incestuous this little gaming community has become.

You understand Kaelik, because you Denners speak Kaelik. Most normal, sensible people don't.....so they're left scratching their heads when he spouts his particular brand of verbal diarrhea.
erik wrote:I'll be charitable and be moving on from all your baseless complaints about editing, conciseness and what have you since it has been made abundantly clear that the problem was in the reader not the writer.

The complaints about skills seem bizarre. The companion is not noted to have any skill ranks at all. Just training in all knowledge skills and a bonus thereto.
If we're treating this Spirit Guide like an ethereal version of a normal monster, then why would it not have skills?

Virtually all monsters have skills and feats.
Kaelik wrote:Spirit Guide: The Spirit Shaman has a spirit guide, some kind of freaky critter that guides them from the Ethereal plane. The spirit guide has the form of a monster with a CR equal to the spirit shaman's level, but always has an Intelligence equal to the spirit shaman's Wisdom and has the same alignment as they do. The Spirit Guide is also treated as having all knowledge skills trained but no ranks. It does however gain an untyped bonus to all knowledge rolls equal to the Spirit Shamans level. The spirit guide exists only on the ethereal plane, but the spirit shaman can see and hear it as if it were on the same plane as they are. The spirit guide takes a new form every time the spirit shaman changes level, chosen by the DM. When he first encounters his Spirit Guide, and again each time the Spirit Guide changes form, the Spirit Shaman may choose one skill that thematically makes sense for the Spirit Guide to provide, the Spirit Shaman is treated as having max ranks in that skill.

While theoretically the Spirit Guide can come to the Material Plane, doing so severs it's connection with the Spirit Shaman, and it becomes an average creature of it's type that does not recall it's previous existence. As such, Spirit Guides almost never do so.


So what is the deal with the Spirit Guide having the "form" of a monster with a Challenge Rating equal to the Spirit Shaman's level?

And is the Challenge Rating equal to the Spirit Shaman's class level or character level? I ask, because Kaelik doesn't explicitly say.

I mean, the Spirit Guide does actually exist on the Ethereal Plane (Kaelik said so)....so does that mean that it possesses the Hit Points, Armor Class, Spell-Like Abilities, and other bullshit that a typical monster would possess? So can an enemy attack Kaelik's Spirit Guide while in the Ethereal Plane, and destroy it? If that can be done, what happens next? Can the Spirit Guide be replaced before the Spirit Shaman's next level?

And for the record, I accept the fact that the Spirit Guide doesn't gain bonus Knowledge skill ranks. But let's look at this for a minute:
Kaeilik wrote:The Spirit Guide is also treated as having all Knowledge skills trained but no ranks. It does however gain an untyped bonus to all knowledge rolls equal to the Spirit Shamans level.
(1.) If a Spirit Guide tethered to a 10th-level Spirit Shaman gains a +10 untyped bonus to all Knowledge skills, does that merit a bonus to its Challenge Rating?

(2.) If a Spirit Guide that ordinarily possesses a 10 Intelligence has its Intelligence amped up to a 20 Intelligence (because of the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom score), will its Challenge Rating increase?

(3.) Would the combination of +10 to all Knowledge skills, and a 10 point increase to Intelligence merit a modifier to the Spirit Guide's Challenge Rating?

(4.) If a spell or magic item temporarily increases the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom, does the Spirit Guide's Intelligence also temporarily increase?

(5.) If the Spirit Guide's Intelligence increases, does it gain bonuses to various Intelligence-based skills?

(6.) Does the Spirit Guide's potential Intelligence increase affect the Difficulty Class of spells and spell-like abilities (all of which need to be recalculated for saving throws)?

(7.) Can someone gain xp for fighting and destroying the Spirit Guide?

(8.) Does the Spirit Guide actually fight and defend itself in the Ethereal Plane?

I will repeat:

All monsters have skills and feats.

(9.) Why would the Spirit Guide not have skills and feats, unless it doesn't actually exist?

(10.) Does the Spirit Guide only have the physical appearance of a monster of appropriate Challenge Rating, but without any actual substance....even in the Ethereal Plane?

(11.) Does the Spirit Guide have a Challenge Rating equal to the Spirit Shaman's class level or character level?

(12.) Can the Spirit Guide be affected just like other creatures in the Ethereal Plane?

Remember, just because you exist only in the Ethereal Plane....and just because you're a spirit, doesn't mean that you can't be affected by other beings.

Now....do you understand what I mean by "editing problems"?

Not everything here is clear, as the written word is not Kaelik's forte.
erik wrote:The change of type to Fey is because he's a fuckin Spirit Shaman not a Shaman Spirit. This doesn't need justification to people without a cursed axe of stupidity to grind.
You do realize that Fey is not the only spirit type out there, right?

I mean, Oriental Adventures has the Spirit sub-type, and then there are Elementals (which are technically classified as "spirits"), so there's no point in limiting the Spirit Shaman's transition to only the Fey.

See this for examples:
Spirit Shaman, from Complete Divine wrote:
Several of the spirit shaman's abilities affect spirits. For purposes of the spirit shaman's ability, a "spirit" includes any of the following creatures:

All incorporeal undead
All fey
All elementals
Creatures in astral form or with astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on the Astral Plane)
All creatures of the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures)
Spirit folk and telthors (see Unapproachable East)
Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7).


In the spirit shaman's worldview, elementals and fey are simply spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the dead.


It's not complicated, chief.
erik wrote:There are gems on the Druid list that can be problematic as at will spells:
• Fire Seeds
• Heal
But that's talking level 11+, so I don't care overly much about that. All in all the casting mechanic is going to be strong, but not hella-strong. Considering that's the meat of what this class can do, that seems fine.

I'd green light this class for play, Tome game or not.

In a Tome game, especially for a new player it is good since it's easy to understand and play with.

In a non-tome game it would be comparable to other well-played casters, but on easy mode since you don't have to look too hard to find ways to shine (so will be viewed as very strong since only a few people would fail to play them strongly). Spamming summoned creatures or evocations/walls can be fun.
Easy to understand? Yes, after clarifying the poor editing issue. But after 7th-level or so, this class will blatantly sodomize the rest of the adventuring party.....unless it's explicitly comprised of top tier primary casters, who fully understand how to optimize.

And spamming summoned monsters might be fun for the player, but could become an absolute fucking nightmare for the DM. Honestly, it would be a headache to be constantly dealing with that horseshit.
erik wrote:The class isn't boring, it's all-spellcasting all the time for class features, but spells are fun. I do wonder about an ethereal companion being the more abusive thing since you can scout everything. Maybe give it a range limit for leaving your presence.
Dude, the class is totally boring. It's just an at-will caster, that will spam the same Druid spells over and over and over again. I could forgive this if it were at least a well-edited class, but it's not.
erik wrote:There's not a lot of downside to getting a prestige class, but that's no sin.

Remember, friends don't let friends post butthurt.
Every post made by Kaelik is a litany of butthurt.
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote: And furthermore, if they're cast "at-will"....does that mean that these are spell-like abilities or actual spells?

I've heard of spell-like abilities being cast at-will, but never....spells.
Oh really? You've never read Pathfinder then I take it? I thought that game was quite popular among the kids today, but I guess you can't assume anything. In that case, yes, spells can be cast at-will and still be spells. Glad to have enlightened you.
(1.) If a Spirit Guide tethered to a 10th-level Spirit Shaman gains a +10 untyped bonus to all Knowledge skills, does that merit a bonus to its Challenge Rating?

(2.) If a Spirit Guide that ordinarily possesses a 10 Intelligence has its Intelligence amped up to a 20 Intelligence (because of the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom score), will its Challenge Rating increase?

(3.) Would the combination of +10 to all Knowledge skills, and a 10 point increase to Intelligence merit a modifier to the Spirit Guide's Challenge Rating?

(4.) If a spell or magic item temporarily increases the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom, does the Spirit Guide's Intelligence also temporarily increase?

(5.) If the Spirit Guide's Intelligence increases, does it gain bonuses to various Intelligence-based skills?

(6.) Does the Spirit Guide's potential Intelligence increase affect the Difficulty Class of spells and spell-like abilities (all of which need to be recalculated for saving throws)?

(7.) Can someone gain xp for fighting and destroying the Spirit Guide?

(8.) Does the Spirit Guide actually fight and defend itself in the Ethereal Plane?

I will repeat:

All monsters have skills and feats.

(9.) Why would the Spirit Guide not have skills and feats, unless it doesn't actually exist?

(10.) Does the Spirit Guide only have the physical appearance of a monster of appropriate Challenge Rating, but without any actual substance....even in the Ethereal Plane?

(11.) Does the Spirit Guide have a Challenge Rating equal to the Spirit Shaman's class level or character level?

(12.) Can the Spirit Guide be affected just like other creatures in the Ethereal Plane?

Remember, just because you exist only in the Ethereal Plane....and just because you're a spirit, doesn't mean that you can't be affected by other beings.

Now....do you understand what I mean by "editing problems"?

Not everything here is clear, as the written word is not Kaelik's forte.
Just so you know, reading this list really comes across as you looking for points to pick at. Half of them read like you haven't ever played 3.5 before (no, CR doesn't increase because of a skill bonus, no, you don't get xp for fighting someone's class features) and the other half are harping on the fact that the Spirit Guide rules aren't exhaustively laid out. It was obviously intended as an intangible assistant and the rules for what happens if you meet an ethereal monster aren't crystal clear, but that's a pretty minor point to clear up.

For someone who found the idea of casting spells at-will "Confusing as hell" I guess it could seem like a bigger issue though.
Dude, the class is totally boring. It's just an at-will caster, that will spam the same Druid spells over and over and over again. I could forgive this if it were at least a well-edited class, but it's not.
I think you need to reread the spellcasting mechanic again. The class gets to choose different spells to cast each day. By definition it casts more different spells than any Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard or any other caster with limited spells known. Plus it gets an ethereal companion on top. Or are you saying that all of these classes are boring too? That would be kind of weird, but at least consistent I guess.
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Post by erik »

It's not tribal defense. I'll be mean to stupid ideas regardless of source. He simply hasn't posted anything stupid or confusing and on the other hand that's your primary trade.

You don't understand rules for CR and you don't understand game terms in general. I don't know what valuable opinions you can hope to have given that spotty background.

It's a very minor point that should not need clarifying because you are the only person who could not understand it since you are blinded by butthurt. To spell it out exicitly the spirit shaman is a shaman who deals with nature spirits. He changes from a humanoid to a fey as fey are magical nature humanoids mostly. He is not becoming a spirit. The other spirit types are irrelevant.



Edit:
Moving on. I'll be posting a 1-20 tome arcane archer that uses this casting mechanic soon. Am stuck using phone for internets right now.
Last edited by erik on Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Red_Rob wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote: And furthermore, if they're cast "at-will"....does that mean that these are spell-like abilities or actual spells?

I've heard of spell-like abilities being cast at-will, but never....spells.
Oh really? You've never read Pathfinder then I take it? I thought that game was quite popular among the kids today, but I guess you can't assume anything. In that case, yes, spells can be cast at-will and still be spells. Glad to have enlightened you.
You realize that this is D&D 3.5, and not Pathfinder, right?

These are two different games, chief. The game mechanics work somewhat differently here.

Nice try, but you fail.
Red_Rob wrote:
(1.) If a Spirit Guide tethered to a 10th-level Spirit Shaman gains a +10 untyped bonus to all Knowledge skills, does that merit a bonus to its Challenge Rating?

(2.) If a Spirit Guide that ordinarily possesses a 10 Intelligence has its Intelligence amped up to a 20 Intelligence (because of the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom score), will its Challenge Rating increase?

(3.) Would the combination of +10 to all Knowledge skills, and a 10 point increase to Intelligence merit a modifier to the Spirit Guide's Challenge Rating?

(4.) If a spell or magic item temporarily increases the Spirit Shaman's Wisdom, does the Spirit Guide's Intelligence also temporarily increase?

(5.) If the Spirit Guide's Intelligence increases, does it gain bonuses to various Intelligence-based skills?

(6.) Does the Spirit Guide's potential Intelligence increase affect the Difficulty Class of spells and spell-like abilities (all of which need to be recalculated for saving throws)?

(7.) Can someone gain xp for fighting and destroying the Spirit Guide?

(8.) Does the Spirit Guide actually fight and defend itself in the Ethereal Plane?

I will repeat:

All monsters have skills and feats.

(9.) Why would the Spirit Guide not have skills and feats, unless it doesn't actually exist?

(10.) Does the Spirit Guide only have the physical appearance of a monster of appropriate Challenge Rating, but without any actual substance....even in the Ethereal Plane?

(11.) Does the Spirit Guide have a Challenge Rating equal to the Spirit Shaman's class level or character level?

(12.) Can the Spirit Guide be affected just like other creatures in the Ethereal Plane?

Remember, just because you exist only in the Ethereal Plane....and just because you're a spirit, doesn't mean that you can't be affected by other beings.

Now....do you understand what I mean by "editing problems"?

Not everything here is clear, as the written word is not Kaelik's forte.
Just so you know, reading this list really comes across as you looking for points to pick at. Half of them read like you haven't ever played 3.5 before (no, CR doesn't increase because of a skill bonus, no, you don't get xp for fighting someone's class features) and the other half are harping on the fact that the Spirit Guide rules aren't exhaustively laid out. It was obviously intended as an intangible assistant and the rules for what happens if you meet an ethereal monster aren't crystal clear, but that's a pretty minor point to clear up.

For someone who found the idea of casting spells at-will "Confusing as hell" I guess it could seem like a bigger issue though.
Wait a second. I don't gain experience points for fighting someone's class features?

So if my enemy uses his class features to command Undead, I don't gain xp when fighting Undead Skeletons and Zombies?

If my enemy uses his class features to animate or create some Undead, I don't gain xp for destroying Skeletons and Zombies? As far as I know, Skeletons and Zombies are almost always created via someone else's class features.

And if my enemy uses his spellcasting class feature to call a creature via a Gate spell, I don't gain xp for killing that either?

Please get real.

Look, I am aware of the fact that you do not gain xp for killing summoned monsters.

But is the Spirit Guide a summoned creature, or a called creature? Or is it something else?

I don't know the answer to this, because the description of the Spirit Guide class feature doesn't elaborate.

Also, the Spirit Guide rules are poorly laid out, in that they are extremely vague. This isn't 5e; it's D&D 3.5.....so we deserve more appropriate clarification.

And as far as this creature being intangible...

....that is technically incorrect. That might have been the intent, but if it exists within the Ethereal Plane.....then that implies it can be affected by other ethereal creatures, or by beings here on the Prime Material Planes using force-based magic (such as magic missile).

Or is it also intangible versus other ethereal beings?

And can the Spirit Guide be affected by Protection From Good/Evil, Dispel Magic, or Antimagic Field spells?
Red_Rob wrote:
Dude, the class is totally boring. It's just an at-will caster, that will spam the same Druid spells over and over and over again. I could forgive this if it were at least a well-edited class, but it's not.
I think you need to reread the spellcasting mechanic again. The class gets to choose different spells to cast each day. By definition it casts more different spells than any Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard or any other caster with limited spells known. Plus it gets an ethereal companion on top. Or are you saying that all of these classes are boring too? That would be kind of weird, but at least consistent I guess.
I'm bored by a casting mechanic for a class that has no thematic justification for it.

I'm bored by the fact that by mid-levels, this class doesn't engage in any meaningful resource management whatsoever.

Kaelik decided to create a less superficially martially proficient Druid, who endlessly spams all of his spells over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.....with no loss of energy, and no negative side effects.

This character doesn't need to travel with an adventuring party. Why? Because with the appropriate Summon Nature's Ally spells....

....HE IS AN ADVENTURING PARTY.

Seriously, what does this class need fellow adventurers for anyway? Since resource management is no longer a factor, You can ENDLESSLY summon cannon fodder to trigger traps, heal your wounds, fight your enemies, break down doors, carry your equipment, use them as cover or concealment, have them use the Aid Another ability to help you with actions, and much more.

You can also endlessly blast your opponents, and not really care that much if you inflict collateral damage on your forces while doing this.....since you NEVER run out of spells.

And you don't even need to acquire many magic items, or need to even bother to reach double digit levels to be so brutally effective.

This class is a poorly-edited piece of shit, and you're getting butthurt because an outsider is hurting your buddy's delicate little feelings.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

This class is a poorly-edited piece of shit, and you're getting butthurt because an outsider is hurting your buddy's delicate little feelings.
Actually, no, it sounds like you're getting butthurt. This is the Den. We use strong language. If you can't handle it, the door's over there, it looks like an X on your browser's tab. If you can't handle it yet think you get to claim the moral high ground while using it, you're a hypocritical piece of shit that needs to get the fuck out because only ridicule remains.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You realize that this is D&D 3.5, and not Pathfinder, right?

These are two different games, chief. The game mechanics work somewhat differently here.

Nice try, but you fail.
Do you have any reason at all to believe that they are SLAs that isn't the stupidest thing in the world? Because right now you have not given any reason to believe that aside from you personal refusal to read what is written.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:But is the Spirit Guide a summoned creature, or a called creature? Or is it something else?
It is obviously not either of those things. It is obviously a creature on the ethereal plane, just like a Druid's AC is a creature on the material plane.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I don't know the answer to this, because the description of the Spirit Guide class feature doesn't elaborate.
Except that it does. It totally does. Right there it says "The spirit guide exists only on the ethereal plane."
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:And as far as this creature being intangible...

....that is technically incorrect. That might have been the intent, but if it exists within the Ethereal Plane.....then that implies it can be affected by other ethereal creatures, or by beings here on the Prime Material Planes using force-based magic (such as magic missile).
Yes, as an ethereal creature, it can interact with ethereal creatures or force effects, just like all other ethereal creatures.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Or is it also intangible versus other ethereal beings?
Why on Earth would you think this? What stupid reason would you think this is the case?
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:And can the Spirit Guide be affected by Protection From Good/Evil, Dispel Magic, or Antimagic Field spells?
Neither Protection from Evil/Magic Circle, nor Dispel Magic, nor Antimagic Field is a Force effect, as such they do not extend onto the Ethereal plane at all. If someone travelled to the Ethereal Plane those spells would interact with the Guide exactly like they do with any other creature of that type.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I'm bored by a casting mechanic for a class that has no thematic justification for it.
Just like the Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, and every other spellcasting class. There is no thematic justification for any specific mechanic, because every type of caster could just as easily be using any other type of casting mechanic. The idea of people who worship a god having at will usage or short recharge times makes exactly the same amount of thematic sense as per day spells. The same for everything else.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I'm bored by the fact that by mid-levels, this class doesn't engage in any meaningful resource management whatsoever.
That is a personal failure on your part, that you can't appreciate a round by round choice instead of resource management decisions. For fucks sakes, Core 3.5 D&D already has resource infinite classes in the form of Rogues and Fighters who buy cure light wounds wands. Do you complain about them?
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:This character doesn't need to travel with an adventuring party. Why? Because with the appropriate Summon Nature's Ally spells....

....HE IS AN ADVENTURING PARTY.
Usually the reason you adventure with a party is because you want other people to help you out with your weaknesses, so for example, I haven't been spamming Summon Monster, mostly because I don't want to deal with the accounting, but I sure have found the warmage to be really useful against the swarms we have faced. And the reach fighter has done more damage and attracts more attention than summons could. Not to mention that we can not give away our location if I don't have to stop to summon a spell every five rounds, or I don't have to get ambushed and not be able to take a full round action to summon.

Wizards don't need an adventuring party either, neither do druids, they bring one, because not bringing one makes you weaker. (Or you know, because four people want to play.)
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Seriously, what does this class need fellow adventurers for anyway? Since resource management is no longer a factor, You can ENDLESSLY summon cannon fodder to trigger traps, heal your wounds, fight your enemies, break down doors, carry your equipment, use them as cover or concealment, have them use the Aid Another ability to help you with actions, and much more.
Okay, tell you what, you make a level 7 Spirit Shaman, and I will DM you through a prewritten WoTC adventure for level 7 PCs, see how long you survive.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You can also endlessly blast your opponents, and not really care that much if you inflict collateral damage on your forces while doing this.....since you NEVER run out of spells.
Indeed I love Druid AoE blast spells like . . . Flamestrike? A level 4 spell worse than Fireball? Uh...
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:This class is a poorly-edited piece of shit, and you're getting butthurt because an outsider is hurting your buddy's delicate little feelings.
Pretty sure all these people who have regularly criticized me in the past over things both important and unimportant are not worried about my feelings being hurt. Also, you might genuinely be the only person in the universe who thinks that your criticism hurts my feelings. Like, I literally dismissed your claim that it was OP as not important because I don't care about your opinion, not really a sign of hurt feelings.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Sacrificial Lamb
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Ok, I missed the "at-will" part. Fair enough. But you absolutely did not label that in your spell table, so it was easy to miss. Hence, POORLY-EDITED.
As erik has explained, there is no reason for the table to be labeled like that. There is one table, and the spellcasting ability explains what it means. If the table was labeled using WotC conventions it would say "daily spells known" and you still would have missed the at will aspect, because that wouldn't be stated in the table. You are basically demanding that I copy the entire spellcasting description minus save DCs and put it at the top of the table, but there is no reason to actually do that.
You posted something for public consumption, therefore, it should be properly labeled. You could have listed "Spells At Will" in the table, but you neglected to.....because you forgot to do so, and now you're trying to argue your way out of admitting that you made a mistake.

Heaven forbid you admit to making a mistake. But hey, Kaelik's gonna Kaelik.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Why this casting mechanic? I see no thematic or game mechanic justification for it. None.
I see no thematic or game mechanic justification for Wizards spellcasting either. I know enough information not provided in the books to know about Vancian casting, and I know enough material from the books to see a game mechanic justification, but neither one is explained in the class. They can only be inferred from the larger context.
Do you have something against resource management? That's not a sin, but I just don't see what you're going for here. Your class will fuck the living shit out of most other base classes in D&D 3.5, with the exception of a few primary casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc.).....and even they will need to be properly optimized to keep up with your Spirit Shaman class.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I don't know any classes that can do this. This looks unbalanced, compared to core classes....even if we take shit like Wild Shape into account. I know that most of the Druid spell list is not utterly campaign-busting, but this honestly seems too powerful
Unsurprisingly, my touchstone for balance is completely independent of your vague "seeming" with no basis to back it up. For example, I have a level 5 Spirit Shaman, and while, as of with moment, we haven't even finished the first adventuring day, so far his single largest contribution has been saving the party 700gp by acting as a faster wand of Lesser Vigor.

In combat I have cast Icelance 3 times, Kelpstrand once. It sure looks like the at will spellcasting isn't going to outshine other full casters or the Tome Fighter in the party. In practice, while I should never end up being the reason we rest, it is highly likely that on a four encounter workday I will not be looking more impressive than anyone else. This is the type of thing that I already was able to figure out from looking over the Druid list.
Let me get this straight:

You deliberately create a class with UNLIMITED SPELLCASTING, but then for reasons that escape me......you decide to use LESS POWERFUL spells to accomplish your goals.

So you either don't understand spell tactics, or are instead using spell choices to fit your character's "theme".....or you're deliberately hobbling yourself, in order to avoid pissing off your fellow players.

But you're definitely not using this class to anywhere near its full destructive potential, in order to determine what it can really do.

So no, you're NOT going to outshine the party using spells such as Icelance or Kelpstrand, especially if you only use them a handful of times.Those spells are nice, but they certainly aren't camapaign-busters.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:.....and even more importantly, unnecessary. Why does the Spirit Shaman have more spell power than every spell-casting character class in the game?
He doesn't.
He does. There isn't a single base class in D&D 3.5 that has such a high degree of spell power.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You're basically jettisoning the entire resource management aspect of D&D, specifically for your class.

Why?
Look kid, see that stickied link at the top, Tome Community Material Link Repository? Read through some of that before you start whining about at will casting. We have already made at least 20 thematic casters with at will casting that I like. There are four cold mage classes that have at will casting, there are shadowcasters, there are fire mages, storm mages, time mages, teleport mages, force mages, elemental mages. If there is a theme, there is an at will casting class using that theme.

Except, not really for nature mages. Until now.
I am NOT looking through that link. Seriously, you can fucking forget it.

There is absolutely no way I'm gonna delve through that endless word salad of countless pages of homebrew material, just so that I can evaluate one single class.

Not a chance.

I'm not evaluating an entirely new game here; I'm evaluating a new class.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The responsibility is on you to be clear and concise. Do not blame me for your personal shortcomings.
I was clear and concise. You failed to read (part of) the description. That is not a problem I can solve. That is 100% your problem, and zero percent my problem.
Your class is poorly-edited garbage. The theme, the mechanics, everything. The more I look at it, the more I see the flaws.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:I never get confused when I read the game mechanics for WoTC classes. The fault is yours; the responsibility is yours, when your language is unclear. You won't take the world by storm with inept writing like this.
If I pick half of a sentence of any wotc casting class to ignore, I can make it confusing what they do too. My writing is not inept because you failed to read, that is your inept reading.
Your failure to objectively evaluate your own writing is your problem if you ever decide to publish it. But yes, if your goal is to post some shitty homebrew class on some pdf on the Web.....then you're in good company.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:For fuck's sake, don't be so defensive. If you can't clearly explain your own game mechanic, then you fail.
I did clearly explain my own game mechanic. I am emphasizing how incredibly obvious what the table represents is if you read the description. Literally 100% of people who read the description will know what it means.
Read my questions and statements in the other posts above, then try to tell me with a straight face that your game mechanics are clearly explained.

Why you aren't embarrassed truly baffles me.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Look, I tried to be nice....but I'll just say it:

Your class is boring. And not only is it boring, but it's not particularly well-edited. And there isn't even any thematic or game mechanic justification for your casting mechanic.
If you think choosing what spells to know, and then choosing what spells to cast is boring, but you think Trackless Step and Woodland Immunity are interesting, then you are completely wrong, and you are also boring.
Your class is boring and unbalanced. Sorry.
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erik
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Post by erik »

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SL. Find someone who doesn't think you're a butthurt moron and, well I won't give your delusions more credence, but at least you won't be mocked alone.

Nobody is buying the stupid arguments you're selling.

Your single best point has been that it should be noted the spirit guide ought be affected by magic circle of some degree, but it is nearly lost in your mendacity and ignorance.
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