National Personifications/Sigil/Lady of Pain

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:35 am

I'd like to run something Planescape-y after the campaign I'm running now, so I've been looking over Den threads about Sigil. Two main things pop out as needing to be dealt with if I want to run specifically Sigil (which has the benefit of having a metric ton of stuff already written for it that I can at least use as a fall back and then develop from there like I did with Greyhawk) are the Lady of Pain and the factions.

Factions are pretty damned easy, especially if I just start with the basic idea of "this city has a ton of organizations you can be part of" and salvage some of the better ideas from the factions but then hold nothing faction-oriented sacred.

I'm inclined to handle the Lady of Pain, not as some apathiarchic de facto "ruler," but rather as something more like a National Personification, like Britannia or Columbia, that, like gods, in D&D happens to be a real entity. I'm thinking that such personifications get involved when the thing they represent is in danger, and maybe make their wishes* known to the actual ruling organization, but other than that aren't running around murder-gazing people or giving guilds STDs (unless you're in Ankh Morpork and actually sleep with Morporkia, perhaps).

Would this be a way to make LoP work?

*Which are more just a reflection of the national identity and so this is little different from fantasy representative democracy, just... magical. But then I'm also now thinking about personifications of different ghettos and neighbourhoods... it would be crowded but narratively interesting.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:45 am

Probably, though I wasn't even aware that the lady of pain even gave orders to people. I always played her as barely present. If you did something that threatened sigil as a whole, or would make it a place people didn't want to live, she would murdergaze people, but otherwise left it well enough alone.

AcidBlades · Post by **AcidBlades** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:46 am

There's also the fact that she also murdermazes people who outright worship her, or mention her name...

Neat idea though. I'd want America clerics to be able to fire eagles from their bodies. Made out of fire and lightning.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:59 am

So basically this?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:04 am

Well, in canon Planescape, LoP has the Dabus, who handle the city, I guess, but is a nominal ruling power who doesn't care about actually ruling. She's like the end game of one of those maniacal villains who want to rule the world, but just so they can be the most powerful guy, not out of any actual bureaucratic desire, so he gets his castle and his exemption from law, and other people handle the actual governance.

I'm thinking of something where she's just the anthropomorphic representation of Sigil, and can murdergaze people who are an actual clear and present danger to the city (and thus herself), and has a psyche that is a sort of amalgamation of the overall desires and goals and attitude of Sigil's residents, which she maybe will voice if the ruling council tries to pass the "Poor people are now our toilet paper" bill, but otherwise she just sits around as a figurehead.

I do really like the idea that Sigil is actually large enough that its neighbourhoods and ghettoes are big enough to have their own personifications, so there's Morie, the personification of Dwarftown, and Kurt, the personification of the Kobold Burrows, and Corey, the personification of the elf ghetto Aboretum, and so on. And maybe these personifications aren't much more than a mid-high level favored class+paragon class member of the race, and maybe pushed up a size category (because "power=size" is a very tenacious hobgoblin of the human mind). If I went that direction, I might tell my players that they all have to pick a different race so that they can also take on the role of their race's ghetto's personification in side scenes.

edit: there's a Dragon issue where the column that was about giving your character more individualized fluff talked about fluffing the appearance of their spells. I think they suggested having a feat for it (because it theoretically might make identifying the spell harder), but I'm totally down with characters having idiosyncratic appearances for their spells so long as there's no mechanical difference. So a 'Murica Cleric could totally make Fire Trap arrows that make the arrows look like bald eagles and shit.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:14 am

Prak wrote:'m inclined to handle the Lady of Pain, not as some apathiarchic de facto "ruler," but rather as something more like a National Personification, like Britannia or Columbia, that, like gods, in D&D happens to be a real entity. I'm thinking that such personifications get involved when the thing they represent is in danger, and maybe make their wishes* known to the actual ruling organization, but other than that aren't running around murder-gazing people or giving guilds STDs (unless you're in Ankh Morpork and actually sleep with Morporkia, perhaps).

How is that different from a superhero, or, hell, a regular-ass fantasy hero?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:26 am

It's not, particularly, and that's kind of the point. The only real difference between The Lady of Pain the National Personification and a high level adventurer would be that she and Sigil are tied to one another. I'm not entirely set on which way I'd go, but Sigil would probably effectively be a phylactery for her, so that you couldn't permanently kill her without also destroying the city.

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:56 pm

Not just eagle evocations.... eagle clowcards!

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:19 pm

Prak, I think the Lady already is a personification of the "city's spirit" in a way - her imagery (rusted blades, cold snub face, elaborate clothes, etc) always screamed victorian london-like decadency, jadedness and corruption to me.

In the game our group was planning (that never took flight, unfortunately) we would have the Lady more or less like you describe, more of the embodiment of the city spirit than a real physical entity that slays people here and there. We decided that nobody in this generation ever seen her in person, so there is this mistery surround her "Is she for real ? Or just a myth ?" or something. THere is a lot of legends and family-stories about how "my grandmother saw her once, passing through at night, followed by a horrific scream. The next morning there was this corpse all slayered in the nearby alley", etc.

I totally support this idea, so go for it. And if you manage to put it in practice, please come back and tell us how it went out.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 9:42 pm

Planescape:Torment wrote:There are thousands of stories about her - one even tells that she's actually six giant squirrels with a headdress, robe, and ring of levitation and illusions

I prefer this to be true, personally.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Mon Aug 24, 2015 10:48 pm

The Lady of Pain maintains reality by ensuring the balance of the fulcrum point. To the degree that lesser beings are useful to that end, she tolerates them; to the degree that they threaten that end, she destroys them.

She is the personification of the universe itself, as impersonal and uncaring and destructive if you get in her way as existence is. She rules the city of Sigil the same way that you rule the bacteria in your home: not at all, unless they prove inconvenient.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:34 pm

Cool idea. Would you have the spirits be something which take people over, turning them into badasses, or do they have a constant physical existence so you can track down Uncle Sam and ask him questions or shoot him as you deem appropriate?

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:21 pm

Sakuya Izayoi wrote:Not just eagle evocations.... eagle clowcards!

Best newhou? Best newhou.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:55 pm

Orca wrote:Cool idea. Would you have the spirits be something which take people over, turning them into badasses, or do they have a constant physical existence so you can track down Uncle Sam and ask him questions or shoot him as you deem appropriate?

If I were to do this, the personifications would be actual characters who go about their own shit and people can go talk to them. Because I think the Lady of Pain actually walking around and scaring the shit out of people is part of Planescape.

So, if you're playing in Colonial America (for whatever reason), you could actually see Uncle Same or Columbia drinking coffee at a diner, and talk to them about shit. You could possibly even romance a personification and it would have some correlation to what the place thought of you overall (though I'm not sure whether being beloved by the place would be a requirement or a result).

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:37 pm

Was I really the first one who read the topic's title and thought "please no Sigil-Tan"?

silva · Post by **silva** » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:15 pm

I Just has The most crazy idea ever:

What if the Lady of Pain is an archetype that real people can tap into (knowingly or not), eventually leading to physical manifestations of her in certain periods when certain individuals embody her ethos perfectly ?

Now the twist: It just happens that the current "avatar" of the lady is not a person, but a cranium-rat gestalt that hapenned to increase in power in the recent years while lurking and preying on undersigil. So the rats under the hood joke is actually the truth.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:49 am

That's not crazy, that's Glorantha duckmen grade "lol randumb"

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:17 am

Prak wrote:That's not crazy, that's Glorantha duckmen grade "lol randumb"

You prefer Aldis' dolphin people?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:20 am

Not sure what you're referring to, but honestly, I don't really have a problem with Ducks. I just recognize that they're dumb.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:42 am

"I met the Lady of Pain once. I don't know who she is or what she is, but I know what she isn't. A virgin."

"You didn't? "

"You said that my cloak of Epic Charisma was a waste of money. You said that I'd never be in a position to use it. Well I was in a position alright, several of them - lotus, doggy, and upright against the wall behind this very pub. "

"When? How?"

"I can tell you, she's a very sharp woman. She knows a catch when she sees one."

But seriously, the Lady of Pain works best as a distant character. If she's involved in the plot at all, nothing you do matters. She wins automatically. You can't oppose her and she doesn't need your support. So, really, she can't be interested in anything that you might be interested in, and that really limits her use.

Explaining what she is sort of defeats the point, in that she's intentionally unknowable for a reason.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:08 am

That's why I'd make her a "national" personification. She's entirely un-involved unless something threatens the entire city as a whole. The entire point of this is to not make her some arbitrarily powerful DM Penis Extension, and make her a usable concept.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:45 pm

Prak wrote:That's why I'd make her a "national" personification. She's entirely un-involved unless something threatens the entire city as a whole. The entire point of this is to not make her some arbitrarily powerful DM Penis Extension, and make her a usable concept.

To be perfectly honest, I just wanted to write about a guy who had sex with the LOP in a dirty alley behind a bar, and then I realized I probably should add some actual content and it was sometime in the early AM.

That makes sense. Though, if that';s the case she can be altered, potentially. What if everyone in Sigil decided that the Dustmen were right. Would that make her suicidal?

Because if this were a possibility, it would mean that she'd have incentive to kill them if they started winning. And if it weren't she'd still have incentive to kill them, because their philosophy is potentially destructive to the city.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:07 pm

Yeah, in my thinking, the make up of the city will affect LoP. Which means the Dustmen shouldn't be a thing, then, but we knew that.