Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

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Sacrificial Lamb
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Ok, I edited it. The only thing I really might change would be the luck feats (to more effectively buff the adventuring party), but I think it looks better this time. Enjoy. :biggrin:

LUCKBRINGER DRUID

The Luckbringer Druid is a derivative of the Druid, with some possible links to the Fey. It is commonly believed that the Luckbringer Druid shares some origins with various clans of Leprechauns, although this has never been truly verified. It shares the same alignment restrictions and spell progression as the Druid class, but differs in many other ways. If the level advancement table and class feature descriptions of the Luckbringer Druid lacks a class feature of the Druid class, such as Wild Shape, then it does not gain that class feature. Levels of the Luckbringer Druid counts as levels of a standard Druid in terms of spellcasting ability, qualification for feats and prestige classes, and the like. A character must choose upon first becoming a Druid whether to be a core Druid or Luckbringer Druid. Once the choice is made, it cannot be changed or unmade, and the character may not later multiclass into the core Druid class or one of its variants.

Alignment: Any neutral (as Druid).

Religion: As a Druid.

GAME RULE INFORMATION

Luckbringer Druids have the following statistics.

Alignment: Any neutral (as Druid).

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills

The druid’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the Luckbringer Druid.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Luckbringer Druids are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the scimitar, and one martial or exotic weapon of his choice.

Luckbringer Druids are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Base Save Bonuses: Fortitude (good), Reflex (poor), and Will (good).

Base Attack Bonus: Average.

Spells: A Luckbringer Druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Druid spell list. His alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below (with the exception of the Aid spell). A Luckbringer Druid must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

The Luckbringer Druid manipulates spell energy in a slightly different way from a typical Druid. To prepare or cast a spell, the Luckbringer Druid must have a Charisma score (rather than Wisdom) equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Luckbringer Druid’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Luckbringer Druid’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Luckbringer Druid can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Druid. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. He does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a Cleric does.

The Luckbringer Druid may prepare and cast any spell on the Druid spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Spontaneous Casting: The Luckbringer Druid has a wider range of spontaneous spells than a standard Cleric or Druid, although they are largely geared toward aiding others. The Luckbringer Druid may lose any prepared spell of equal or higher level in exchange for any of the following spells:

0-cure minor wounds, guidance, resistance; 1st-bless, cure light wounds, feather fall; 2nd-aid, cure moderate wounds, lesser restoration; 3rd-cure serious wounds, prayer, remove curse; 4th-break enchantment, cure critical wounds, restoration; 5th-atonement, mass cure light wounds, raise dead; 6th-find the path, mass cure moderate wounds, heal; 7th-greater restoration, mass cure serious wounds, resurrection; 8th-mass cure critical wounds, moment of prescience, regenerate; 9th-foresight, mass heal, true resurrection

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A Luckbringer Druid cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if he has one), with the exception of the Aid spell. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Bonus Languages: A Luckbringer Druid’s bonus language options include Sylvan, the language of woodland creatures. This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.

A Luckbringer Druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which he learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, he knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Luckbringer Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.

Druidic has its own alphabet.

Unbound: A Luckbringer Druid's oaths are relaxed, allowing him to wear metal armor or use metal shields with no loss of spellcasting, supernatural, or spell-like abilities.

Urban Companion (Ex): Instead of the Animal Companion, the Luckbringer Druid receives the Urban Companion class feature from Cityscape.

Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the Wild Empathy check result.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Luckbringer Druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.

Trackless Step (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Luckbringer Druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.

Resist Nature’s Lure (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Luckbringer Druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of Fey.

Luckbringing: The Luckbringer Druid has access to bonus luck feats (from the Complete Scoundrel) at 1st-level, 4th-level, 7th-level, 10th-level, 13th-level, 16th-level, and 19th-level. He has a Luck Pool, equal to the luck rerolls from his feats, plus bonus luck rerolls equal to his Charisma modifier (if any). Any luck feat with a character level prerequisite can be accessed by a Luckbringer Druid of two class levels lower than the prerequisite.

Luckbringer's Path:
At 3rd-level, the Luckbringer Druid can choose one path. He can either acquire Bardic Music (as a Bard of one-half his class level), Evasion, the Track feat, Trapfinding, or Uncanny Dodge. Bardic Music acquired via Luckbringer's Path stacks with Bardic Music acquired via Bard levels. If the Luckbringer has acquired Evasion from another class, then he gains Improved Evasion instead. And if he already has Uncanny Dodge from a different class, he automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge instead.

Venom Immunity (Ex): At 9th level, a Luckbringer Druid gains immunity to all poisons.

A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a Luckbringer Druid gains the ability to change his appearance at will, as if using the disguise self spell, but only while in her normal form. This affects the Luckbringer Druid’s body but not her possessions. It is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of the Luckbringer Druid’s appearance, within the limits described for the spell.

Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, a Luckbringer Druid no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties he may have already incurred, however, remain in place.

Bonuses still accrue, and the Luckbringer Druid still dies of old age when his time is up.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by violence in the media »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote: I do not want to be a Beguiler variant. My aptitude with spells is not based upon magical misdirection.

That's not what I fucking want.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? I didn't say that I was against battlefield control; I said that I don't want to be a spontaneous monster summoner.
Then why did you base this variant off the class known for being a spontaneous monster summoner? :confused:

Also, "the druid has Nature magic." What is that even supposed to mean? D&D just has spells. They do what the spell says, for the most part, independent of whether they're on a Druid, Cleric, Wizard, or Beguiler spell list. Like, you don't need any part of the Druid or it's spell list to fluff your class here as having "nature magic".
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

violence in the media wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote: I do not want to be a Beguiler variant. My aptitude with spells is not based upon magical misdirection.

That's not what I fucking want.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? I didn't say that I was against battlefield control; I said that I don't want to be a spontaneous monster summoner.
Then why did you base this variant off the class known for being a spontaneous monster summoner? :confused:

Also, "the druid has Nature magic." What is that even supposed to mean? D&D just has spells. They do what the spell says, for the most part, independent of whether they're on a Druid, Cleric, Wizard, or Beguiler spell list. Like, you don't need any part of the Druid or it's spell list to fluff your class here as having "nature magic".
Known by whom? Spontaneous monster summoning is only one feature of the Druid class, and there are Druid variants without this ability. So why do you believe that spontaneous monster summoning is so completely integral to the Druid class? Spontaneous monster summoning didn't even exist before the arrival of D&D 3.x.

And as far as "nature magic", it's pretty self-explanatory. Nature magic is controlling the elements, turning into trees, magically influencing plants and animals, using element-based damage spells (fire, electricity, cold, etc.), summoning insects, using weather magic, and more.

So I just don't understand your confusion.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by violence in the media »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote: Known by whom? Spontaneous monster summoning is only one feature of the Druid class, and there are Druid variants without this ability. So why do you believe that spontaneous monster summoning is so completely integral to the Druid class? Spontaneous monster summoning didn't even exist before the arrival of D&D 3.x.
Emphasis mine. That doesn't matter. This is a variant class made for 3.x and spontaneous monster summoning is one of the things druids are known for in that regard.
And as far as "nature magic", it's pretty self-explanatory. Nature magic is controlling the elements, turning into trees, magically influencing plants and animals, using element-based damage spells (fire, electricity, cold, etc.), summoning insects, using weather magic, and more.

So I just don't understand your confusion.
My confusion is why you're equating your desire for the class to have "nature magic" with the need to use the druid chassis. Is every elementalist wizard or evoker specialist a "nature magician" in your mind? Two of your "changes" involve letting the "druid" use a hammer and wear metal armor. Oh, and "not wild shaping" and "not pulling monsters out of my ass"; but you get to be part-a-bard instead!

I am genuinely confused as to why you insist on basing this off a druid when you could just be a cleric and append some fluffy nature-centric fanfic to your creation and call it a day. Do you just really want all the secondary druid abilities? Is all of the nerfing you're doing to the druid just so you don't have to justify to the other players why you're not raining bears down on any encounter they're having difficulty with?
Last edited by violence in the media on Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

violence in the media wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote: Known by whom? Spontaneous monster summoning is only one feature of the Druid class, and there are Druid variants without this ability. So why do you believe that spontaneous monster summoning is so completely integral to the Druid class? Spontaneous monster summoning didn't even exist before the arrival of D&D 3.x.
Emphasis mine. That doesn't matter. This is a variant class made for 3.x and spontaneous monster summoning is one of the things druids are known for in that regard.
Yes, ONE of the things. Not THE thing.

Spontaneous monster summoning is not integral to being a Druid, especially when it's intended to be a variant Druid.
violence in the media wrote:
And as far as "nature magic", it's pretty self-explanatory. Nature magic is controlling the elements, turning into trees, magically influencing plants and animals, using element-based damage spells (fire, electricity, cold, etc.), summoning insects, using weather magic, and more.

So I just don't understand your confusion.
My confusion is why you're equating your desire for the class to have "nature magic" with the need to use the druid chassis. Is every elementalist wizard or evoker specialist a "nature magician" in your mind? Two of your "changes" involve letting the "druid" use a hammer and wear metal armor. Oh, and "not wild shaping" and "not pulling monsters out of my ass"; but you get to be part-a-bard instead!
This is not intended to be an arcane caster, so that might be relevant. And I'm using the Druid chassis because I want to use the Druid chassis.

I want it.

And as far as the hammer and metal armor....

....this class is proficient in simple weapons, the scimitar, and one other weapon of his choice (which happens to be either martial or exotic). And the ability to use metal shields and wear metal armor wasn't just some random ability that I tacked on there. These design decisions were intended to ensure that the class was wider in scope than a core Druid.

In regards to the Bardic Music ability though, I'm not actually hellbent on keeping that. But I felt that such an ability could be a possibility because I wanted this class to be slightly more light-hearted and roguish, and having some Bard/Rogue secondary abilities might reflect that.
violence in the media wrote:I am genuinely confused as to why you insist on basing this off a druid when you could just be a cleric and append some fluffy nature-centric fanfic to your creation and call it a day. Do you just really want all the secondary druid abilities? Is all of the nerfing you're doing to the druid just so you don't have to justify to the other players why you're not raining bears down on any encounter they're having difficulty with?
And I'm confused by your confusion.

I don't want to be a Cleric. That's not what I want, as it doesn't provide me with the focus or abilities that I want.

And my group doesn't have enough rules mastery to fully understand what's overpowered, and what isn't. Only our DM has a vague clue, and I think he'd prefer it if we didn't use Tier 1 classes anyway.

But when all is said and done, I can assure you that my character has been quite effective inside the dungeon (if that's relevant, which it probably isn't on this forum).
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Post by Username17 »

Lambo wrote:The Tier system is meaningless garbage....in your opinion, which I certainly don't accept as the gospel truth. It can at least be useful as a guideline. Even a social retard like yourself must recognize that in most cases, a 12th-level Cleric will be unambiguously more powerful than a 12th-level Barbarian. The Tier system tries to explain and categorize this situation.

No, it's not a perfect system....but it does what it needs to do.
No. The Tier System is literally garbage. It is a classification of classes based on how powerful they are if they are allowed to use the tricks and combos that JaronK allows them to use at his table and aren't allowed to use the tricks and combos that he bans at his table. And very importantly, that list isn't even the same for different classes. He literally allows Factotums to use rules from Oriental Adventures that he doesn't allow other classes to use despite the Factotum having no special rules regarding interaction with Oriental Adventures. He just likes the class and for purposes of evaluation he allows it to dumpster dive through more books than he allows other classes to dive through.

Also, too, the criteria of "what power is" also make no sense in addition to the measurement of that power being basically the scoring system from Whose Line Is It Anyway. Artificers get high marks for having a great many ways (that JaronK would apparently allow them to use) to break the game by dumpster diving off various lists. But that crap only comes online at 12th level. And breaking the game in more than one way is meaningless since the game is already broken after you broke it the first time. Also, too, Artificers have to spend months of game time putting together a doom staff or power ring, so any character you actually played would only have one broken combo of doom - no more than a Sorcerer. And breaking the game at level 12 is fucking meaningless regardless, because the vast majority of the game is played at single digit levels where the Artificer is so bad at life as to be only marginally better than an NPC class.

JaronK's tier system is a bad system that is inconsistently applied to dishonestly measure a meaningless quantity. It's less than worthless. So he puts Archivists (a class which is actually extremely bad, and whose entire power is that the DM will presumably eventually take pity on you and give you overpowered spells to make up for the fact that your class chassis is the worst parts of Clerics and Wizards) at Tier 1, and Beguilers (a rockstar class that gets more good spells known than a Wizard automatically and can cast spontaneously off their list and has killer apps at all levels and also has no real weaknesses) at tier 3. Why? Because apparently JaronK would allow Archivists to find spell scrolls off obscure Book of Vile Darkness prestige class lists that you don't care about and they'd be demon summon pimps at level 12... while Beguilers have no moving parts and "just" get to have a very large pile of workhorse encounter winning effects at all levels. WTF!?

If you want to talk balance points and not have people laugh at you for using a stupid system for stupid people, I suggest talking about Balance Points. Those things are based on things like Same Game Tests.

-Username17
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The class doesn't need to be Tier 1 to contribute to the needs of the adventuring party.

There are also Druid variants without Wildshape, and yet they still remain viable concepts for an adventuring Druid....no matter how much you impotently rage about it.

I'm running this class right fucking now, and it's been quite effective in boosting the effectiveness of the adventuring party....so your statements simply have no bearing on actual game play.
Uh... WTF? Are you smoking crack. Like, don't get me wrong, the thing were you were constantly misunderstanding everything I said was funny for a while, but surely not even you are this stupid.

You are the only person who thinks that the power of your class is in any way a relevant problem. It is literally just you. I have posted like, 30 things in this thread, and every single one of them is a criticism of your theme, your concept, your blatant laziness in class design, your arbitrary wedding to a specific class chasis for no reason, and your inability to process anything I have said. At no point have I ever said that the fucking power of your class is a problem.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies).
If you want the battlefield control of the druid class, but don't want "make a habit" of it, then you should design a class that actually does that. Instead, what you have done is taken away all the ordering bears to attack, and turning into a bear and attacking, and left the class with nothing but "cast battlefield control" or "be a shitty cleric knockoff."

If you want to have access to battlefield control, but not make a habit of it, you should design significant 1 minute recharge or at will luck abilities, and then complement them with a Sulin Sorcerer style casting off the Druid list. Hell, that even makes the actual Druid casting actually luck themed, in that you luckily always have the right spell prepared.

But that would take 35 whole seconds of thought about what you actually want to do with your actions, and then maybe a whole hour to write all the luck abilities, and that would be way too much fucking work, so fuck it, am I right? way better to just copy past the Druid class and get an inferior product that is basically just a Druid who chooses not to wild shape.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Now....can you keep it in your pants, or are you too stubborn to admit that you're simply wrong?
Wrong about what? You still don't understand anything I have said, how can you possibly even fathom an opinion on whether I am right or wrong when you can't fucking read?
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Lambo wrote:The Tier system is meaningless garbage....in your opinion, which I certainly don't accept as the gospel truth. It can at least be useful as a guideline. Even a social retard like yourself must recognize that in most cases, a 12th-level Cleric will be unambiguously more powerful than a 12th-level Barbarian. The Tier system tries to explain and categorize this situation.

No, it's not a perfect system....but it does what it needs to do.
No. The Tier System is literally garbage. It is a classification of classes based on how powerful they are if they are allowed to use the tricks and combos that JaronK allows them to use at his table and aren't allowed to use the tricks and combos that he bans at his table. And very importantly, that list isn't even the same for different classes. He literally allows Factotums to use rules from Oriental Adventures that he doesn't allow other classes to use despite the Factotum having no special rules regarding interaction with Oriental Adventures. He just likes the class and for purposes of evaluation he allows it to dumpster dive through more books than he allows other classes to dive through.

Also, too, the criteria of "what power is" also make no sense in addition to the measurement of that power being basically the scoring system from Whose Line Is It Anyway. Artificers get high marks for having a great many ways (that JaronK would apparently allow them to use) to break the game by dumpster diving off various lists. But that crap only comes online at 12th level. And breaking the game in more than one way is meaningless since the game is already broken after you broke it the first time. Also, too, Artificers have to spend months of game time putting together a doom staff or power ring, so any character you actually played would only have one broken combo of doom - no more than a Sorcerer. And breaking the game at level 12 is fucking meaningless regardless, because the vast majority of the game is played at single digit levels where the Artificer is so bad at life as to be only marginally better than an NPC class.

JaronK's tier system is a bad system that is inconsistently applied to dishonestly measure a meaningless quantity. It's less than worthless. So he puts Archivists (a class which is actually extremely bad, and whose entire power is that the DM will presumably eventually take pity on you and give you overpowered spells to make up for the fact that your class chassis is the worst parts of Clerics and Wizards) at Tier 1, and Beguilers (a rockstar class that gets more good spells known than a Wizard automatically and can cast spontaneously off their list and has killer apps at all levels and also has no real weaknesses) at tier 3. Why? Because apparently JaronK would allow Archivists to find spell scrolls off obscure Book of Vile Darkness prestige class lists that you don't care about and they'd be demon summon pimps at level 12... while Beguilers have no moving parts and "just" get to have a very large pile of workhorse encounter winning effects at all levels. WTF!?

If you want to talk balance points and not have people laugh at you for using a stupid system for stupid people, I suggest talking about Balance Points. Those things are based on things like Same Game Tests.

-Username17
I read your links, and wasn't particularly impressed. What I read through was not an easy short-hand system like JangK's class Tier system, nor was it particularly robust in examining the rankings of classes with each other, and why they're ranked that way. It doesn't explain why or how some classes are better at handling various challenges.

The Balance Points even makes a point of saying that what's balanced in one campaign isn't especially balanced in another.

At least we can say that the Same Game Tests provided some white room, arena-style examples of challenges. The problem, however, is that these examples aren't particularly useful for most people....because they are bereft of context, in regards to their environment.

And even worse, both links were epically boring.

The one detail I did find interesting was the fact that you seriously contradict yourself in this post:
FrankTrollman wrote: So he puts Archivists (a class which is actually extremely bad, and whose entire power is that the DM will presumably eventually take pity on you and give you overpowered spells to make up for the fact that your class chassis is the worst parts of Clerics and Wizards) at Tier 1, and Beguilers (a rockstar class that gets more good spells known than a Wizard automatically and can cast spontaneously off their list and has killer apps at all levels and also has no real weaknesses) at tier 3.
Yet in your first link on Balance Points, this is said:
wrote:Other classes and prestige classes, published by Wizards of the Coast, that can be considered around the Wizard level of balance include:

Artificer
Archivist
Beguiler
Cleric
Druid
Psion
Sorcerer


In other words, your example contradicts your statement.

But you know what? I am tired of this fucking argument, when it literally has nothing to do with the evaluation of this character class.

Nothing.

However, I am going to do you a favor....and I'll try not to acknowledge JangK's Tier system, so that you and Kaelik do not endlessly argue with me over pointless trivialities.

All I wanted here was some constructive criticism over the actual content of this class. I didn't get that. Instead I receive arguments about trivialities that have nothing to do with the actual class that I posted.

Seriously, what the actual fuck.
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The class doesn't need to be Tier 1 to contribute to the needs of the adventuring party.

There are also Druid variants without Wildshape, and yet they still remain viable concepts for an adventuring Druid....no matter how much you impotently rage about it.

I'm running this class right fucking now, and it's been quite effective in boosting the effectiveness of the adventuring party....so your statements simply have no bearing on actual game play.
Uh... WTF? Are you smoking crack. Like, don't get me wrong, the thing were you were constantly misunderstanding everything I said was funny for a while, but surely not even you are this stupid.

You are the only person who thinks that the power of your class is in any way a relevant problem. It is literally just you. I have posted like, 30 things in this thread, and every single one of them is a criticism of your theme, your concept, your blatant laziness in class design, your arbitrary wedding to a specific class chasis for no reason, and your inability to process anything I have said. At no point have I ever said that the fucking power of your class is a problem.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies).
If you want the battlefield control of the druid class, but don't want "make a habit" of it, then you should design a class that actually does that. Instead, what you have done is taken away all the ordering bears to attack, and turning into a bear and attacking, and left the class with nothing but "cast battlefield control" or "be a shitty cleric knockoff."

If you want to have access to battlefield control, but not make a habit of it, you should design significant 1 minute recharge or at will luck abilities, and then complement them with a Sulin Sorcerer style casting off the Druid list. Hell, that even makes the actual Druid casting actually luck themed, in that you luckily always have the right spell prepared.

But that would take 35 whole seconds of thought about what you actually want to do with your actions, and then maybe a whole hour to write all the luck abilities, and that would be way too much fucking work, so fuck it, am I right? way better to just copy past the Druid class and get an inferior product that is basically just a Druid who chooses not to wild shape.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Now....can you keep it in your pants, or are you too stubborn to admit that you're simply wrong?
Wrong about what? You still don't understand anything I have said, how can you possibly even fathom an opinion on whether I am right or wrong when you can't fucking read?
You're as socially retarded as ever.

Since your language is extremely hostile, but not particularly coherent.....I'm going to assume that you're telling me to custom build an entire spell list for this class, and custom build a bunch of luck abilities.....in order to design my class from the bottom up. You're essentially telling me to not make this into a Druid variant.

Well, guess what? I'm making this into a Druid variant, as the concept is for the Luckbringer Druid to be a member of a variant sect of Druids.

I originally envisioned this class being embraced by Leprechauns and Gnomes, since the roots of the class are there.

Furthermore, you apparently can't fucking read. I said that I don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters. That's it. I don't want to spontaneously control monsters.

Spontaneously controlling monsters is not the only way to control the battlefield.

You've been deliberately disingenuous, and are deliberately misreading everything that I wrote. You think this class is shitty?

Tell me why, and tell me how.

Little that you've said here has been an actual critique of the class.

You don't like the theme of the class? Then more carefully explain why.

You yap incessantly about my "arbitrary wedding to a specific class chasis for no reason".

The reason is simple. This is a variant sect of Druids, that was originally initiated by Gnomes, Leprechauns, and various members of the Fey. Because of this, their religious practices and needs will be partially different from that of a core Druid.

Now....can you clearly and coherently explain your issues with the class (and how to fix them), or will you engage in more diarrhea of the mouth again, and go completely batshit crazy?

I'm betting that you'll go batshit crazy again.

Edit: I may custom build some luck abilities, although I haven't decided upon it yet. But the Druid spell list stays.
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Since your language is extremely hostile, but not particularly coherent.....I'm going to assume that you're telling me to custom build an entire spell list for this class, in order to design my class from the bottom up. You're essentially telling me to not make this into a Druid variant.
Oh my god. Can you just find any other human being, and have them read what I type and translate for you? Literally no other human being is this incapable of understanding words.

I mean yes, I did expect you, an alleged lurker, to have some limited basic knowledge of TGD, or you know, when confronted by something you don't understand, use google. And that on top of everything else was pretty fucking huge assumption, because you can't even understand words, but please at least try.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Furthermore, you apparently can't fucking read. I said that I don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters. That's it. I don't want to spontaneously control monsters.

Spontaneously controlling monsters is not the only way to control the battlefield.
Ugh. I can't tell which problems are created by your stupidity and which are your inability to read.

Look, you fucking demanded to have the goddam druid list as your class list. So I said have the fucking Druid list, and you tell me "NO I DON'T WANT THE DRUID LIST! I WANT THE DRUID LIST!" I can't fucking tell what your fucking problem is.

I mean, okay, you don't understand what the Sulin Sorcerer is because you are allergic to google, so look:

1) Your class is garbage because it doesn't do anything. You throw a shit fit about how you don't want to use the spells on the druid list, but you demand the class have the druid list. Already we are deep as fuck in the rabbit hole.

2) Stop saying "control monsters" because it is not at all clear what you mean. Give a list of evil bad controlling monster spells you don't want to use, and then give a different (exactly the fucking same?) list of all the essential Druid battlefield control spells that make the concept of using the Cleric list instead of the Druid list the worst possible thing in the universe. Because right now, all you are saying is "DRUID DRUID DRUID, NOT CLERIC, DRUID. DRUID THAT CASTS CLERIC SPELLS, BUT STILL DRUID." and that isn't helping anyone have even the slightest clue what you are talking about.

3) Earlier on you said "Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies)."

That doesn't make any sense at all, and or, is literally exactly the thing I told you to do that you immediately threw a fit about how terrible it is to do. If your class has the ability to do something in every round of every fight, and doing that is objectively the best thing to do in every fight, then your character will do that thing. If your character can't do that thing every single round, he might do it much less often and do something else instead.

If what you want is to not use battlefield control as a first resort (do you mean the same thing by battlefield control and controlling monsters? It seems really obvious based on those sentences that you should, but fuck if I know at this point,) because you do not want to "make a habit" of it. Then you need to have something else that is the first resort for you to make a habit of. Like short recharge luck based abilities. Then, if you want your battlefield control abilities to be for emergencies, then you should give them fewer uses a day (like the Sulin Sorcerer) but you probably don't want to have so few uses per day off the Druid list as a prepared caster, because the Druid list has a lot of situationally environment based spells, and you might end up wanting all sorts of not battlefield control things under other circumstances, so you could let them use those fewer slots per day spontaneously off the entire druid list (like the Sulin Sorcerer).

4) Spontaneous vs Prepared casting is not a First Order Goal. You should choose between spontaneous casting an prepared casting based on whether or not it creates characters who do the kinds of things you want them to do, not based on whether you want a class to be spontaneous or prepared.

In this case, everything you have said about battlefield control makes it sound like you should want spontaneous casting off the druid list with fewer uses per day as a backup emergency maneuver, with some kind of luck based abilities on either at will or short recharge timers.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You've been deliberately disingenuous, and are deliberately misreading everything that I wrote.
Aside from deliberately, you just described yourself not me. I can assure you, that when you find your human to Sacrificial Lamb translator, they will tell you that nothing I have said is disingenuous.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Tell me why, and tell me how.

Nothing you've said here has been an actual critique of the class.

You don't like the theme of the class? Explain why.

Now....can you clearly and coherently explain your issues with the class (and how to fix them)
Everything I have said here has been a critique of the class. I explained how your class fails to achieve it's theme, I have explained how your theme would make more sense if you permitted deviations from your rigid adherence to definitely being a druid and only a druid who is definitely a druid (who just doesn't ever cast druid spells, but has to have druid spells). I have clearly and coherently explained all these things, along with many possible solutions, multiple times, in multiple ways.

You just really cannot understand even a single thing I have typed, and you are going to do the same thing again in this post.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Ok, I went back and edited my post. A couple things you've said made actual sense, but most of your rant was still unbridled shit.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Since your language is extremely hostile, but not particularly coherent.....I'm going to assume that you're telling me to custom build an entire spell list for this class, in order to design my class from the bottom up. You're essentially telling me to not make this into a Druid variant.
Oh my god. Can you just find any other human being, and have them read what I type and translate for you? Literally no other human being is this incapable of understanding words.

I mean yes, I did expect you, an alleged lurker, to have some limited basic knowledge of TGD, or you know, when confronted by something you don't understand, use google. And that on top of everything else was pretty fucking huge assumption, because you can't even understand words, but please at least try.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Furthermore, you apparently can't fucking read. I said that I don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters. That's it. I don't want to spontaneously control monsters.

Spontaneously controlling monsters is not the only way to control the battlefield.
Kaelik wrote:Ugh. I can't tell which problems are created by your stupidity and which are your inability to read.

Look, you fucking demanded to have the goddam druid list as your class list. So I said have the fucking Druid list, and you tell me "NO I DON'T WANT THE DRUID LIST! I WANT THE DRUID LIST!" I can't fucking tell what your fucking problem is.
Ok, how do I put this?

I do not want to spam Summon Nature's Ally, all day and all night.

That just doesn't interest me.

I want access to the Druid spell list, and I will only cast Summon Nature's Ally occasionally. To be honest, I'd rather have the ability to spontaneously cast Cure Wounds spells, or Bless and Aid spells, or whatever.

In other words, fuck spamming Summon Nature Ally all day, every day.
Kaelik wrote:I mean, okay, you don't understand what the Sulin Sorcerer is because you are allergic to google, so look:
I googled the Sulin Sorcerer, and couldn't find it. I've read through lots of D&D supplements, but I've never even heard of this class. What book is it in?
Kaelik wrote:1) Your class is garbage because it doesn't do anything. You throw a shit fit about how you don't want to use the spells on the druid list, but you demand the class have the druid list. Already we are deep as fuck in the rabbit hole.
What the fuck? Did you even read the class?

There are three things this class cannot do that the core Druid can. It cannot:

* spontaneously spam Summon Nature's Ally all day
* acquire an Animal Companion at 1st-level
* Wild Shape at 5th-level

It doesn't have the Nature Sense class feature either, but that doesn't really matter.

My character will be 4th-level during the next gaming session. He'll be acquiring his second luck feat, and will have five luck rerolls....rather than two. Admittedly, this is a weak class ability.....and I might change it. But let me tell you what I do/will have by next session:

* two luck feats (Good Karma feat, and I haven't chosen the other one yet; total of 5 or 6 Luck rerolls....because of my character's Charisma bonus)
* Trapfinding (Disable Device, Open Lock, & Search were all +10 at 3rd-level, so I'll probably pump more points into them)
* spontaneous healing spells, and spontaneously cast Bless/Aid spells; they are useful
* a wider variety of skills
* a wider potential choice of weapons and armor (I have Exotic Weapon Proficiency in maul, without expending a feat for it; I like this)
* an Urban Companion; in my case, it's basically a familiar with more hit points and abilities....and his aid is invaluable when attempting skill checks or using the Aid Another ability (he helps me deal with traps, or avoid surprise)

So there we go.
Kaelik wrote:2) Stop saying "control monsters" because it is not at all clear what you mean. Give a list of evil bad controlling monster spells you don't want to use, and then give a different (exactly the fucking same?) list of all the essential Druid battlefield control spells that make the concept of using the Cleric list instead of the Druid list the worst possible thing in the universe. Because right now, all you are saying is "DRUID DRUID DRUID, NOT CLERIC, DRUID. DRUID THAT CASTS CLERIC SPELLS, BUT STILL DRUID." and that isn't helping anyone have even the slightest clue what you are talking about.
There are no Druid spells that I "do not want to use".

I said (Goddamnit), that I do not want to endlessly spam Summon Nature's Ally all day. Summon spells will be a part of my spell list, but summoning critters will not be the central focus of the class. That will be secondary, which is why the Luckbringer Druid loses the ability to spontaneously summon.
Kaelik wrote:3) Earlier on you said "Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies)."

That doesn't make any sense at all, and or, is literally exactly the thing I told you to do that you immediately threw a fit about how terrible it is to do. If your class has the ability to do something in every round of every fight, and doing that is objectively the best thing to do in every fight, then your character will do that thing. If your character can't do that thing every single round, he might do it much less often and do something else instead.

If what you want is to not use battlefield control as a first resort (do you mean the same thing by battlefield control and controlling monsters? It seems really obvious based on those sentences that you should, but fuck if I know at this point,) because you do not want to "make a habit" of it. Then you need to have something else that is the first resort for you to make a habit of. Like short recharge luck based abilities. Then, if you want your battlefield control abilities to be for emergencies, then you should give them fewer uses a day (like the Sulin Sorcerer) but you probably don't want to have so few uses per day off the Druid list as a prepared caster, because the Druid list has a lot of situationally environment based spells, and you might end up wanting all sorts of not battlefield control things under other circumstances, so you could let them use those fewer slots per day spontaneously off the entire druid list (like the Sulin Sorcerer).
I'm getting the impression that you and I are just not understanding each other, for whatever reason.

Up to now, when we had our Half-Orc Barbarian playing.....he would team up with my regenerating Warforged Dungeoncrasher Fighter to smash our enemies in melee, while I would use Obscuring Mist to prevent us from getting gibbed by ranged attacks. I'd also be healing the other PCs when they'd inevitably get hurt.

I would sometimes use my hammer as a back-up weapon. Once the Rogue player left, I was engaged in the lion's share of trapfinding.
Kaelik wrote:4) Spontaneous vs Prepared casting is not a First Order Goal. You should choose between spontaneous casting an prepared casting based on whether or not it creates characters who do the kinds of things you want them to do, not based on whether you want a class to be spontaneous or prepared.

In this case, everything you have said about battlefield control makes it sound like you should want spontaneous casting off the druid list with fewer uses per day as a backup emergency maneuver, with some kind of luck based abilities on either at will or short recharge timers.
The Luckbringer Druid will prepare spells in advance, just like a core Druid does.

I don't know about the luck abilities yet. What I have is adequate for now, but I think the class needs a more robust luck power.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:You've been deliberately disingenuous, and are deliberately misreading everything that I wrote.
Aside from deliberately, you just described yourself not me. I can assure you, that when you find your human to Sacrificial Lamb translator, they will tell you that nothing I have said is disingenuous.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Tell me why, and tell me how.

Nothing you've said here has been an actual critique of the class.

You don't like the theme of the class? Explain why.

Now....can you clearly and coherently explain your issues with the class (and how to fix them)
Everything I have said here has been a critique of the class. I explained how your class fails to achieve it's theme, I have explained how your theme would make more sense if you permitted deviations from your rigid adherence to definitely being a druid and only a druid who is definitely a druid (who just doesn't ever cast druid spells, but has to have druid spells). I have clearly and coherently explained all these things, along with many possible solutions, multiple times, in multiple ways.

You just really cannot understand even a single thing I have typed, and you are going to do the same thing again in this post.
You explained yourself slightly better this time, but most of your posts were unhelpful in this thread.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Foxwarrior »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:
Kaelik wrote:I mean, okay, you don't understand what the Sulin Sorcerer is because you are allergic to google, so look:
I googled the Sulin Sorcerer, and couldn't find it. I've read through lots of D&D supplements, but I've never even heard of this class. What book is it in?
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40573
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Post by Username17 »

This new troll is lame. I'm done.

-Username17
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

FrankTrollman wrote:This new troll is lame. I'm done.

-Username17
"New troll"?

Are you out of your mind?

At this point, I'm going to assume that you're trolling me.

If you've ever read any of my posts on therpgsite (when I used to post there), then you would realize that "trolling" is not something I do.

You provided me with an example that contradicted your statement. Don't be such a fucking baby when I point that out.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Ok, how do I put this?

I do not want to spam Summon Nature's Ally, all day and all night.

That just doesn't interest me.

I want access to the Druid spell list, and I will only cast Summon Nature's Ally occasionally. To be honest, I'd rather have the ability to spontaneously cast Cure Wounds spells, or Bless and Aid spells, or whatever.

In other words, fuck spamming Summon Nature Ally all day, every day.
WHOLLY FUCKING SHIT STOP SMOKING CRACK. No one at any point in this entire thread, literally zero fucking people, have ever at any point, suggested anything, about making the class spontaneously summon monsters. FUCK. Learn to goddam read.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:What the fuck? Did you even read the class?

There are three things this class cannot do that the core Druid can. It cannot:

* spontaneously spam Summon Nature's Ally all day
* acquire an Animal Companion at 1st-level
* Wild Shape at 5th-level

It doesn't have the Nature Sense class feature either, but that doesn't really matter.
Yes, your class is exactly like taking levels in Druid, but choosing not to wildshape. I know. My point is that this is stupid. That is not a class. That is just being a Druid and not wildshaping.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:* spontaneous healing spells, and spontaneously cast Bless/Aid spells; they are useful
1) Not that useful. 2) Regular Druid can already do that.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:There are no Druid spells that I "do not want to use".

I said (Goddamnit), that I do not want to endlessly spam Summon Nature's Ally all day. Summon spells will be a part of my spell list, but summoning critters will not be the central focus of the class. That will be secondary, which is why the Luckbringer Druid loses the ability to spontaneously summon.
FUCKING HELL, NO ONE TOLD YOU TO MAKE YOUR STUPID CLASS SUMMON MONSTERS. LITERALLY NO ONE.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The Luckbringer Druid will prepare spells in advance, just like a core Druid does.
There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this.

If you want to not be an idiot, you need to have a reason for the choice between spontaneous and prepared casting. You have given absolutely no reason of any kind. I have suggested a luck themed method of casting that also allows you to have significant luck abilities as a standard action that don't compete against your casting off the druid list.

You have responded that you will prepare spells for no reason, because even if it thematically doesn't make sense, and is detrimental to the concept of the class, you will do it anyway.

That is not a sensible position.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:If you've ever read any of my posts on therpgsite
Suddenly everything makes perfect sense.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Foxwarrior wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:
Kaelik wrote:I mean, okay, you don't understand what the Sulin Sorcerer is because you are allergic to google, so look:
I googled the Sulin Sorcerer, and couldn't find it. I've read through lots of D&D supplements, but I've never even heard of this class. What book is it in?
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=40573
I read the thread, and it was mildly interesting....but only mildly so, and not particularly relevant to this thread.

The Sulin Sorcerer in that thread wasn't even finished at all, with not enough information presented to properly evaluate it. All I saw there was a homebrew Thaumathurge class written by Bigode. The spell progression of this class isn't clear to me. It says Spells Per Day: wizard/2. Is that supposed to mean it gains a Wizard's spell progression every two levels? The only interesting part of the Thaumathurge class is the ability to spontaneously cast spells from the Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer/Wizard lists.

Interesting, but not what I'm going for. And that's the Thaumathurge, not the Sulin Sorcerer. Anyway, I might allow the Luckbringer Druid to have a class feature that provides access to Bardic magic. I did that for another Druid variant that I wrote before, and I could do that here.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Ok, how do I put this?

I do not want to spam Summon Nature's Ally, all day and all night.

That just doesn't interest me.

I want access to the Druid spell list, and I will only cast Summon Nature's Ally occasionally. To be honest, I'd rather have the ability to spontaneously cast Cure Wounds spells, or Bless and Aid spells, or whatever.

In other words, fuck spamming Summon Nature Ally all day, every day.
WHOLLY FUCKING SHIT STOP SMOKING CRACK. No one at any point in this entire thread, literally zero fucking people, have ever at any point, suggested anything, about making the class spontaneously summon monsters. FUCK. Learn to goddam read.
Don't back-pedal now. You gave me shit earlier for not wanting a Druid variant to spontaneously summon monsters.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:What the fuck? Did you even read the class?

There are three things this class cannot do that the core Druid can. It cannot:

* spontaneously spam Summon Nature's Ally all day
* acquire an Animal Companion at 1st-level
* Wild Shape at 5th-level

It doesn't have the Nature Sense class feature either, but that doesn't really matter.
Yes, your class is exactly like taking levels in Druid, but choosing not to wildshape. I know. My point is that this is stupid. That is not a class. That is just being a Druid and not wildshaping.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:* spontaneous healing spells, and spontaneously cast Bless/Aid spells; they are useful
1) Not that useful. 2) Regular Druid can already do that.
You lie.

A core 3rd-level Druid cannot SPONTANEOUSLY cast Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Resistance, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Aid, Cure Moderate Wounds, and Lesser Restoration.

You ready to eat some crow?
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:There are no Druid spells that I "do not want to use".

I said (Goddamnit), that I do not want to endlessly spam Summon Nature's Ally all day. Summon spells will be a part of my spell list, but summoning critters will not be the central focus of the class. That will be secondary, which is why the Luckbringer Druid loses the ability to spontaneously summon.
FUCKING HELL, NO ONE TOLD YOU TO MAKE YOUR STUPID CLASS SUMMON MONSTERS. LITERALLY NO ONE.
Stop. Just stop. You may not have explicitly told me to make my "stupid class summon monsters", but you certainly weren't shy about treating me like shit for replacing spontaneous summons with something else.

You said this:
Kaelik wrote:I mean, Urban Companion already exists and can be taken. Your list of replacement spells is probably objectively worse than the Druid summon list, since Druids can summon things that cast heal and restoration. And Charisma is just a worse stat to have as your casting stat.
And my reply would be this:

Druids cannot use a Summon Nature's Ally spell to heal people until at least 7th-level, when summoning a Unicorn. A Unicorn can use Cure Light Wounds three times per day, Cure Moderate Wounds once per day, and Neutralize Poison once per day.

The only other summoned healer for this list of spells is a Celestial Charger Unicorn which can't even be summoned until 17th-level, when using Summon Nature's Ally IX.

That's nice, but it's too little, too late. What in the fuck am I supposed to do before then, when I want to be a more efficient healer than a core Druid?

Also, you said this:
Kaelik wrote:3) Earlier on you said "Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies)."

That doesn't make any sense at all, and or, is literally exactly the thing I told you to do that you immediately threw a fit about how terrible it is to do. If your class has the ability to do something in every round of every fight, and doing that is objectively the best thing to do in every fight, then your character will do that thing. If your character can't do that thing every single round, he might do it much less often and do something else instead.

If what you want is to not use battlefield control as a first resort (do you mean the same thing by battlefield control and controlling monsters? It seems really obvious based on those sentences that you should, but fuck if I know at this point,) because you do not want to "make a habit" of it. Then you need to have something else that is the first resort for you to make a habit of. Like short recharge luck based abilities. Then, if you want your battlefield control abilities to be for emergencies, then you should give them fewer uses a day (like the Sulin Sorcerer) but you probably don't want to have so few uses per day off the Druid list as a prepared caster, because the Druid list has a lot of situationally environment based spells, and you might end up wanting all sorts of not battlefield control things under other circumstances, so you could let them use those fewer slots per day spontaneously off the entire druid list (like the Sulin Sorcerer).
And my reply would be this:

Here you are condescending to me again, telling me "that doesn't make any sense at all".....because my idea of "battlefield control" doesn't coincide with spamming summon spells. If you're not insultingly implying that you think my rejection of the spontaneous summon ability is a terrible idea, then I don't know what the fuck you're saying.

I will again state that I will only occasionally summon monsters. My idea of "battlefield control" is:

* obscuring mist
* entangle
* faerie fire
* fog cloud
* flaming sphere
* soften earth and stone

...and other stuff like that.

I'm low-level, so the higher-level spells are off-limits to me now.

Take note that I'm not against summoning monsters. I'm against spontaneous summoning for this class because I don't want to summon monsters all the fucking time. And it's also not integral to the theme of the class either.

Oh, and remember when you were castigating me for not knowing what the fuck a Sulin Sorcerer was? Since I didn't see it in any official publication, and all I saw was an unfinished outline of this incredibly obscure class on this forum way back in 2004 (provided by Foxwarrior's link), I can't really see why you'd give me shit for not knowing what this class is, or what it can do. And I still can't find a fully-written outline of the Sulin Sorcerer, even now.
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:The Luckbringer Druid will prepare spells in advance, just like a core Druid does.
There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this. There is no reason for this.
And now you've gone off the deep end. You've lost it. It's over.

Cash in your chips, and go home.
Kaelik wrote:If you want to not be an idiot, you need to have a reason for the choice between spontaneous and prepared casting. You have given absolutely no reason of any kind. I have suggested a luck themed method of casting that also allows you to have significant luck abilities as a standard action that don't compete against your casting off the druid list.

You have responded that you will prepare spells for no reason, because even if it thematically doesn't make sense, and is detrimental to the concept of the class, you will do it anyway.

That is not a sensible position.


Why do I "need" to provide you with a fucking reason for the choice between spontaneous and prepared casting? Why do I have to justify this particular design choice? I don't know where you're going with this, and I suddenly realize that I no longer care.

You are a lunatic. Seriously, you're batshit crazy, OCD, horribly bitter, aggressive, combative, often incoherent, and cosmically obnoxious.

And since I've been arguing with a lunatic, I've come to the conclusion that I'd be better off chasing you with a rope and a net, rather than attempting to have a logical discussion with you.
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Luckbringer Druid [D&D 3.5]

Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Don't back-pedal now. You gave me shit earlier for not wanting a Druid variant to spontaneously summon monsters.

Stop. Just stop. You may not have explicitly told me to make my "stupid class summon monsters", but you certainly weren't shy about treating me like shit for replacing spontaneous summons with something else.

You said this:
Kaelik wrote:I mean, Urban Companion already exists and can be taken. Your list of replacement spells is probably objectively worse than the Druid summon list, since Druids can summon things that cast heal and restoration. And Charisma is just a worse stat to have as your casting stat.
Yes, I told you that your spontaneous list was objectively worse than a Druid's spontaneous list. Which is not in any way even remotely related to telling you that you have to summon monsters, and was in fact, so long ago that it was before you explained anything at all about you wanted from the class, and therefore before I started explaining to you better ways to make your class.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:* spontaneous healing spells, and spontaneously cast Bless/Aid spells; they are useful
1) Not that useful. 2) Regular Druid can already do that.
You lie.

A core 3rd-level Druid cannot SPONTANEOUSLY cast Cure Minor Wounds, Guidance, Resistance, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Feather Fall, Aid, Cure Moderate Wounds, and Lesser Restoration.

You ready to eat some crow?
Are you ready to point to any part of my post where I claim that a Core druid can do it? A Core druid also can't take Urban Companion, a Core druid also can't cast off Charisma, a Core Druid also can't do a lot of things that a Druid can. A Druid can spontaneously cast all sort of spells using all sorts of methods. You can sub other monsters onto Summon Nature's Ally, you can cast spontaneously off of other things besides Summon Nature's Ally, and you can carry a wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor instead of wasting time on heal spells.

Nor, frankly, did I say that they could cast every spell on your spontaneous list, I'm pretty sure I can't get them to cast Guidance spontaneously, but I also don't care.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Stop. Just stop. You may not have explicitly told me to make my "stupid class summon monsters", but you certainly weren't shy about treating me like shit for replacing spontaneous summons with something else.
No, I certainly never treated you like shit for replacing spontaneous summons. In fact, that might literally be the one thing about your class that I have criticized the absolute least.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Also, you said this:
Kaelik wrote:3) Earlier on you said "Furthermore, the elemental magic on the Druid list is exactly the type of battlefield control that I want. I simply don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters more than necessary (i.e. emergencies)."

That doesn't make any sense at all, and or, is literally exactly the thing I told you to do that you immediately threw a fit about how terrible it is to do. If your class has the ability to do something in every round of every fight, and doing that is objectively the best thing to do in every fight, then your character will do that thing. If your character can't do that thing every single round, he might do it much less often and do something else instead.

If what you want is to not use battlefield control as a first resort (do you mean the same thing by battlefield control and controlling monsters? It seems really obvious based on those sentences that you should, but fuck if I know at this point,) because you do not want to "make a habit" of it. Then you need to have something else that is the first resort for you to make a habit of. Like short recharge luck based abilities. Then, if you want your battlefield control abilities to be for emergencies, then you should give them fewer uses a day (like the Sulin Sorcerer) but you probably don't want to have so few uses per day off the Druid list as a prepared caster, because the Druid list has a lot of situationally environment based spells, and you might end up wanting all sorts of not battlefield control things under other circumstances, so you could let them use those fewer slots per day spontaneously off the entire druid list (like the Sulin Sorcerer).
And my reply would be this:

Here you are condescending to me again, telling me "that doesn't make any sense at all".....because my idea of "battlefield control" doesn't coincide with spamming summon spells. If you're not insultingly implying that you think my rejection of the spontaneous summon ability is a terrible idea, then I don't know what the fuck you're saying.

I will again state that I will only occasionally summon monsters. My idea of "battlefield control" is:

* obscuring mist
* entangle
* faerie fire
* fog cloud
* flaming sphere
* soften earth and stone

...and other stuff like that.

I'm low-level, so the higher-level spells are off-limits to me now.

Take note that I'm not against summoning monsters. I'm against spontaneous summoning for this class because I don't want to summon monsters all the fucking time. And it's also not integral to the theme of the class either.
Oh look, the spell list you absolutely refused to give me when I asked for it! Thanks buddy. Because there was no reason whatsoever to think that this could have cleared up confusion or anything right?

Look shitface, absolutely no one was talking about summoning monsters at all, and you said, "I like battlefield control, and need it on my class, but I don't want to make a habit of controlling monsters." No one in the universe knew that the the second part was about summon nature's ally. There are a number of reasons for that:

1) No one was talking about summon nature's ally.
2) Summon Nature's ally doesn't make you control monsters, it makes you control summons or animals.
3) Monsters are the opposition, and you had just talked about battlefield control spells that by definition, control monsters.
4) Other reasons.

So basically, your statement read like A, but also ~A. I followed up by asking you to pretty please give an example of A and ~A, on the assumption that surely you meant something else, and you refused to do so for no reason, and didn't clarify your position at all.

No one, least of all me, ever told you that battlefield control needed to involve summoning monsters. What I definitely did make fun or you for was claiming you wanted to cast battlfield control, but you didn't want to make a habit of casting battlefield control, and then, more recently, your rejection of the idea of spontaneous casting off the entire Druid list, because even though I specifically pointed to environment based battlefield control spells like wall of stone, entangle, stone spikes, ect., you decided to whine again about how spontaneity is the devil, and fuck summoning monsters, even though, once again, you are the only person talking about that.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Oh, and remember when you were castigating me for not knowing what the fuck a Sulin Sorcerer was? Since I didn't see it in any official publication, and all I saw was an unfinished outline of this incredibly obscure class on this forum way back in 2004 (provided by Foxwarrior's link), I can't really see why you'd give me shit for not knowing what this class is, or what it can do. And I still can't find a fully-written outline of the Sulin Sorcerer, even now.
The write up is complete. I take no responsibility for your complete inability to read anything at all.
Sacrificial Lamb wrote:Why do I "need" to provide you with a fucking reason for the choice between spontaneous and prepared casting? Why do I have to justify this particular design choice? I don't know where you're going with this, and I suddenly realize that I no longer care.
You don't need to provide me with anything. But if you had a reason, you could just say it, and then anyone reading this thread could help you with your stupid class. But since you don't have a reason, you can't say it, and if you don't have a reason, then we fall back on what I pointed out previously, the distinction between spontaneous and prepared is not a First Order preference. It is a Derivative Preference. Your failure to recognize that is going to continue to cripple any attempt to design a class.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

I still don't see how, conceptually, being some kind of Charisma-focused luck themed Druid gives you Spontaneous casting of Healing spells (like a cleric), the ability to wear metal armour (like a cleric) or bonus martial weapon proficiency (like a war cleric). I'm honestly not sure what this class is trying to do, other than be a random grab-bag of abilities you wanted on your Druid.
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Red_Rob wrote:I still don't see how, conceptually, being some kind of Charisma-focused luck themed Druid gives you Spontaneous casting of Healing spells (like a cleric), the ability to wear metal armour (like a cleric) or bonus martial weapon proficiency (like a war cleric). I'm honestly not sure what this class is trying to do, other than be a random grab-bag of abilities you wanted on your Druid.
This "grab-bag of abilities" isn't random.

Before I continue though, I'm going to temporarily ignore Kaelik, because his posts are highly aggressive, hard to follow, and he's also obnoxiously batshit crazy. Maybe most Denner regulars are used to understanding, following, and tolerating Kaelik's aggressively inane prattle, but I just don't have the patience for it right now. He's temporarily used up my good will, so I'll address your statement instead.

I'm making the class more Bard-like.

Originally, Bards in AD&D began as Druids and Thieves, so I wanted to play up that link a little bit. Providing this class with Fey origins does make some sense, but I'm not yet wedded to that idea. But anyway, as an example.....the Fochlucan Lyrist prestige class can wear metal armor without losing his powers, and is proficient in weapons that a core Druid isn't (such as a longsword or whip). It also has abilities common to Rogues. So I decided to also loosen those Druidic oaths (which I don't like anyway), as well as provide a bonus weapon proficiency.

This Luckbringer Druid class also potentially has access to some Rogue or Bard class features, to put this in the direction I'm looking for.

Granted, I'm going in a different direction than a Fochlucan Lyrist...because I wanted this class to provide assistance to others. That's why I removed spontaneous summoning, and replaced it with spontaneous Cure Light Wounds, Aid, Bless, and other stuff like that.

Healing spells provide assistance to others. Aid and Bless spells provide assistance to others.

And I don't understand why this class being a Charisma-based Druid is a problem. It's not like there isn't precedent for Charisma-based divine casters anyway.

I originally made my character into a core Druid, with the Dynamic Priest feat.....which allowed him to base his spell power upon Charisma. I also wanted to be passably good at Charisma-based skills. Since we're using 30 point buy for our campaign, I wanted to have acceptably high stats in as many ability scores as possible for my character. After this, I gave my PC the Magic-Blooded (Spark) template, which provides +2 to Charisma, and -2 to Wisdom. And of course, I have a luck feat as well.

So I wanted my character to be a charismatic, skilled, and and lucky wielder of nature magic.

Later on, I decided to just design a Druid variant class....who was more roguish or bardic in temperament, and lucky....which is why I made this class use Charisma as a casting stat, rather than Wisdom....because why expend an entire feat, when I could make Charisma-based casting an inherent aspect of the class?

And besides, it thematically fit.....since this class is more bardic and roguish anyway. I saw this class as a path that Leprechauns (and occasionally Gnomes) might take.

Since we had a Leprechaun in our campaign that followed a god of Luck, who remained a major foil for some of our other characters, I wondered what the path for such a Leprechaun might look like.

This god's divine portfolio was devoted to luck. He had a neutral alignment, had a small animal sidekick, and also had ties to nature.

So basically, this class follows the path that such a Leprechaun or devotee of that god might take.
Last edited by Sacrificial Lamb on Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Eikre »

Lamb, you're pretty transparently asking people to entertain your Elothar: Warrior of Bladereach base class. You're writing bespoke homebrew to match whatever personal preferences you have for the particular character you're playing right now. What kind of analysis are you expecting? As aggravated as you are about Kaelik's rude aggression in slapping the dicks out of your mouth, he still called it in his first post: Your DM probably isn't going to veto you, because you're trading good features for less-good features and that's not going to break his game. Does anything else matter?

If this is meant to be a contribution for serious consideration and widespread applicability, be advised: Without the inclusion of any real mechanical novelty, and without speaking to a theme that resonates more, your work is only another entry to the tall pile of pulpy Pathfinder-brand filler content. And, while it's true that lots of people are very interested to read that stuff, they only do so when it's official, thus meeting the constraints on the material they use for CharOp solitaire.


I concede that you're on an upward trajectory. Just by including the word "leprechaun" in your class description you've made your goal about thirty times more comprehensible.

Image
Don't be looking for no trouble, I've got friends to watch me back, see?

But do me a personal favor and stop writing a long-form document with all the copy/paste'd SRD content. Haven't you noticed how almost every variant is formatted exclusively as a list of the modified features? When you transcribe all the unmodified shit, you demand that the reader play a game of Find the Difference before he can make an evaluation, and it's a goddamned waste of time for anybody not sitting in a pediatrician's waiting room.
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Post by Sacrificial Lamb »

Eikre wrote:Lamb, you're pretty transparently asking people to entertain your Elothar: Warrior of Bladereach base class. You're writing bespoke homebrew to match whatever personal preferences you have for the particular character you're playing right now. What kind of analysis are you expecting? As aggravated as you are about Kaelik's rude aggression in slapping the dicks out of your mouth, he still called it in his first post: Your DM probably isn't going to veto you, because you're trading good features for less-good features and that's not going to break his game. Does anything else matter?
I don't know who Elothar: Warrior of Bladereac is, but....ok. As far as expectations, I actually had no expectations at all. Various members of this site seem to possess some knowledge of D&D 3.5, so I felt that it might be good for someone else to evaluate the class.....and point out any glaring flaws.

My goal was absolutely not to create an entirely new class, but to instead create a variant that fit the needs of my campaign.

But instead, I had people continually implying that I should create an entirely new class from scratch, when that isn't what I want at all.

But no, I had absolutely no idea what type of response I would receive here, although I'll admit the hostility really surprised me. I know that there's some ball-busting on this site from time to time, but I didn't expect Kaelik's rabid foaming of the mouth, or Trollman's blatant attempt to derail and troll the thread with a pointless rant over his hatred of JangK's class Tier system, or any of the other bullshit in this thread.....that had little to do with an actual evaluation of the class.

You are correct that my DM will not veto this class. He has no major issues with it. I'm also aware that I'm trading some great class features for weaker class features, but I'm ok with that because the modifications (mostly) fit my character concept......and this allows me to have the abilities I want to have.

And no, nothing else matters. I like the variant class I wrote up (mostly), the basic theme works, and it handles smoothly in play. What else could be relevant?
Eikre wrote:If this is meant to be a contribution for serious consideration and widespread applicability, be advised: Without the inclusion of any real mechanical novelty, and without speaking to a theme that resonates more, your work is only another entry to the tall pile of pulpy Pathfinder-brand filler content. And, while it's true that lots of people are very interested to read that stuff, they only do so when it's official, thus meeting the constraints on the material they use for CharOp solitaire.
Why does a class variant require a large amount of "real mechanical novelty" when it fits the theme I'm looking for, provides the game mechanics I want, and handles smoothly in play?

Originality is nice, but it's largely overrated.
Eikre wrote:I concede that you're on an upward trajectory. Just by including the word "leprechaun" in your class description you've made your goal about thirty times more comprehensible.

Image
Don't be looking for no trouble, I've got friends to watch me back, see?

But do me a personal favor and stop writing a long-form document with all the copy/paste'd SRD content. Haven't you noticed how almost every variant is formatted exclusively as a list of the modified features? When you transcribe all the unmodified shit, you demand that the reader play a game of Find the Difference before he can make an evaluation, and it's a goddamned waste of time for anybody not sitting in a pediatrician's waiting room.
I don't know what I did wrong here. I believe in being thorough, so that there's no confusion on how the class functions. But for the sake of sanity, I'll try it your way in the future.
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Post by Kaelik »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:rant over his hatred of JangK's class Tier system, or any of the other bullshit in this thread.....that had little to do with an actual evaluation of the class.
I thought it was a typo before, but now I am forced to conclude that you are from an alternate universe.

Maybe JangK is the alternative dimension version who made a good Tier system, who can ever know?
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Post by Red_Rob »

Sacrificial Lamb wrote:And no, nothing else matters. I like the variant class I wrote up (mostly), the basic theme works, and it handles smoothly in play. What else could be relevant?
Well, some of us foolishly assumed that since you posted the class on a game design forum that you maybe wanted some actual feedback. If you were already happy with it and didn't care about anyone else's opinion why bother posting it in the first place?

When you post a class for public consumption people are going to look at three things. How cohesive is the theme, how well do the mechanics convey that theme, and how balanced is it with the rest of the game. Now, given that 3e came out 15 Goddamn years ago people have also come to expect a little mechanical flair at this point - people have been making "A Rogue but with some psi powers instead of Uncanny Dodge and slightly less sneak attack" type class variants for a literal decade and they don't get anyone excited any more. People want to see an innovative resource mechanic or a neat little tweak that reinforces your theme through the way the class plays.

The reason you didn't seem to understand the criticisms being levelled against this class was that people were assuming you had a theme you were trying to convey - a class based around luck and gambling, playing the odds and always coming out on top through lucky breaks, that sort of thing. Hence people were recommending you come up with a spell system that fits that feel, that you drop the elements that didn't fit that concept and all the other stuff people have been saying for the last two pages. Instead you just had some abilities you wanted to staple onto your Druid character and were willing to give up Wildshape to get them. That isn't really worth a whole variant class to be honest, and definitely not something that is going to get people talking.

So I'm gonna say that the class is fine, it will probably work great for what you want and have fun playing it. But it doesn't really warrant any serious discussion and will probably be of very limited interest to anyone else.
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