Magic: important to your enjoyment of rpgs ?

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:14 pm

Please elaborate how Apocalypse World is hi-magic.

On the Shadowrun front, I think I like it when its magic takes the form of cultural practices (voodoun possessions, shamanism summoning, aztec blood-sacrifices, etc) and I dislike it when it takes the form of pointy-hat mages throwing fireball though fingers.

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:39 pm

The iconic SR hermetic mage. Literally an elven pointy-hat wizard shooting fireballs from his fingers. In case anybody still thought silva has anything to say.

silva · Post by **silva** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:49 pm

Lol

That cocksucker can only be iconic for you. To me, the iconic magic-user is the one at right. Then again, I love me some cultural mojo, and despise cliched tolkienesque crap.

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:05 pm

1. Neither of those are hermetic mages.
2. SR has immortal elves, dwarves, dragons, and wizards. It's cliched Tolkienesque crap with assault rifles.
3. I fucked your mom.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:16 pm

More literal fire at literal fingertips.

A literal bard with a literal lute.

A wizard with a staff, robe, and wizard hat.

And don't forget the metaplot emphasis on western dragons & immortal elves in a setting with dwarves, orcs, and trolls. Shadowrun has a strong emphasis on Tolkien-esque fantasy.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:16 pm

virgil wrote:
More literal fire at literal fingertips.

A literal bard with a literal lute.

A wizard with a staff, robe, and wizard hat.

And don't forget the metaplot emphasis on western dragons & immortal elves in a setting with dwarves, orcs, and trolls. Shadowrun has a strong emphasis on Tolkien-esque fantasy.

That picture certainly makes me realize that wizard gear is actually just rich old guy gear.

I think, in a modern magic setting, the staff should have 4 feet.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:45 pm

I mean, Silva is probably right when he says that the Tolkien-derivative parts of Shadowrun are some of the worst parts of Shadowrun. It's just massive goalpost-shifting. He started with "I don't like magic" and retreated to "I don't like academic mages."

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:53 pm

Orion wrote:I mean, Silva is probably right when he says that the Tolkien-derivative parts of Shadowrun are some of the worst parts of Shadowrun. It's just massive goalpost-shifting. He started with "I don't like magic" and retreated to "I don't like academic mages."

It's even worse than that since the archetype he points to as his iconic magic user has a spells which involve "pointy-hat mages headdress wearing shaman throwing firepower/manaball though fingers". Hell the tribesman he put up doesn't even have magic.

Berkserker · Post by **Berkserker** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:12 pm

I don't get why I'd play an escapist action-oriented RPG without magic, I'll be honest. Right up until the stuff that's explicitly superhuman, which you can call whatever you want whether that be 'wizard bullshit', 'tinker bullshit', 'adept bullshit', whatever flavor of superhuman you like, then you can get roughly the same thrills from playing D&D that you can get from getting some buddies together and doing some spear or staff sparring. I want my characters full of superhuman awesome because anything else, I can grab some friends and just do. If I'm playing D&D I don't want to play a character running around with a spear who's kinda vaguely boring-looking. I want to play a dude who can be mistaken for Mt. McLargeHueg all by himself and calls down the blessings of the gods to kill people (but denies that he enjoys it). Or not, whatever. But I think the big thing is that it's there and it's totally an option, it's like that touch of 'This is not your house, this is not your home'.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:35 pm

Let me assure you that you and your friends are not, in fact, anywhere near the limits of human capability with a spear or staff, nevermind the fact that there is in fact more to an RPG than just whacking another dude with a pointy stick even if your character's capabilities are not at all superhuman.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:57 pm

OTOH, there are many physical tasks where the limit of human ability is difficult to describe in an impressive way in a gaming context. The best real-world martial artists or fencers may be very exciting to watch, but in a D&D context the olympic championship of tae kwan do pretty much boils down to "spam melee attacks until you win."

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:59 pm

For me playing an rpg is something I do to hang out and escape. Magic provides just another tool that allows a given character to more firmly control their own destiny. It doesn't have to be magic though. Technology, chi, or whatever could do the job. While I can't say that magic or some phlebotinum is 100% necessary for me I can say I've never played, been offered to play, or desired to play a ttrpg without it.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:05 pm

Orion wrote:I mean, Silva is probably right when he says that the Tolkien-derivative parts of Shadowrun are some of the worst parts of Shadowrun.

I disagree. Anything that makes Silva super butthurt can't be all bad, plus it's deliciously cyberpunk to admit that oftentimes the old ways aren't really any more authentic/viable than new media when it comes to actually inspiring people. Besides, Shadowrun art has always hewed closer to "David Bowie in a Spirit Hood" than "actual minorities in actual period wear," and that kinda thing makes more sense in a world where people can use a rolled up Larry Elmore poster as a magical fetish.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:24 pm

I sort of agree with Berserker on the escapism thing. I tend to play warlocks and wizards and other casters, and prefer to play further from human than closer. I wouldn't decide to stick spar over playing an RPG because even at low levels I can find something, usually, that is some amount of escapism. But I do hold a story without magic to a higher standard than one with magic. If I'm stuck being some dipshit commando hopped up on painkillers and caffeine in a shithole jungle fighting a rich man's war, then you better give me a good story and not just endless encounters with dipshit commandoes hopped up on god knows what fighting a different rich man's war who happen to be a different color than me.

And if you're going to stick me in some medieval road trip story like Lord of the Rings, I'll kick at the fucking walls of the bus and destroy your setting.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:39 pm

Orion wrote:The best real-world martial artists or fencers may be very exciting to watch, but in a D&D context the olympic championship of tae kwan do pretty much boils down to "spam melee attacks until you win."

Well, yes, because D&D is optimized for higher powered adventures. If you wanted to do a mundane thing you would obviously need a different system in which doing a mundane thing has enough options attached to actually be interesting.

Also, for the record, I don't disagree with Berserker's conclusion, it's just the reasoning he used to get there is bonkers.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Orion wrote:OTOH, there are many physical tasks where the limit of human ability is difficult to describe in an impressive way in a gaming context. The best real-world martial artists or fencers may be very exciting to watch, but in a D&D context the olympic championship of tae kwan do pretty much boils down to "spam melee attacks until you win."

That's because of necessary abstraction of combat so one isn't bogging down the main subsystem even further.

You've been stepping to this thread with shit you probably think is deep, but is actually pretty stupid when given some thought. Like your claim that "everyone understands magic" (which can literally be or do anything and has no actual eqivalency) but don't understand physics or how the world works (which we materialistically interact with all the godsdamned time). People may have misconceptions and biases about how societies and nebulous or esoteric concepts work, but they damn sure understand how to do stuff in the real world.

Berkserker · Post by **Berkserker** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:21 am

Chamomile wrote:Let me assure you that you and your friends are not, in fact, anywhere near the limits of human capability with a spear or staff, nevermind the fact that there is in fact more to an RPG than just whacking another dude with a pointy stick even if your character's capabilities are not at all superhuman.

True. And we're well aware of it. But you get more of the visceral rush of whacking someone with a stick from whacking someone with a stick than you do playing D&D. In terms of fun (for me), whacking someone with a stick>playing D&D with a character whose answer to most problems is whacking them with something. And I'm willing to bet a lot of people would agree if they decided to get better at whacking each other with sticks and actively practice at it with their friends. (Of course, 'whacking with sticks' can be any sort of martial art, weapon, what have you that you can convince your friends to try. I'm pretty sure you get the idea though.)

If your character is a melee brute without many cool tricks or ways to affect combat outside of 'roll attack, roll damage', it's gonna get boring. I do agree with you that you can do mundane characters and make them interesting by having systems in place to let them do cool stuff. Likewise, I agree with Prak that with or without magic, a LotR wannabe in which a lot of the action is 'we're walking, we're walking' is getting kicked right the hell off the rails, the folks I game with will make anyone damn sorry for bringing that weak-ass shit to the table. Magic doesn't get to wallpaper over that.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:41 am

Part of the problem with LotR wannabes is that they are high magic settings that forbid players from having any. Best case scenario, the GM's fellatio buddy gets to play Gandalf, but let's be honest, if any of us played a caster who cast that fucking little, we're either sandbagging like crazy trying to not show up the mediocre party, or we, at best, don't consider them to be a real caster.

"Gandalf's not a wizard, the wizards are more like angels, blahblahfuckingblah"
You're right. Tolkien wizards aren't wizards. Their spellcasting bears more similarity to Runequest priests, who must go to a temple and pray for single uses of spells and cannot prep new ones each day unless they live near a temple. The only people I've seen happy with that were happy to have a bit of casting as a hobby to go with their more useful abilities.

And while this is a silva thread, even silva hasn't played tabletop Runequest. There is no game design excuse for runepriest magic to work like that. Plenty of world explanation, but if Stafford wants to explain shit in world and to Hell with game mechanics, then he should just fucking write stories. He'd probably make a very good living just being a novelist.

silva · Post by **silva** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:37 am

Dont know if my language barrier is at it again, but if Berserker (and other people's) argument is that without magic you cant have powerful/extraordinary/surreal in-game effects, I strongly disagree. Perhaps this is true for sim-based games like D&D or Shadowrun, but in more narrative ones like Fate, Cortex plus, Apoc World, Heroquest (this one, not the boardgame), etc. you get "mundane" abilities which effects are sometimes even stronger than magic-justified ones on sim-based games. I will just leave one of the Gunlugger's abilities here and go back to my bed.

NOT TO BE FUCKED WITH: in battle, you count as a gang (aka: 15 people, armed and armored).

Good night.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:23 am

Not that it's worth responding to your trolling...

silva wrote:Dont know if my language barrier is at it again

There are people saying how much better non-magical games are are and claiming that it's because they are "predictable like the real world".

You flat out agreed with that saying "what they said" and your own posts basically echo it.

But hey, back right out of that and all. Whatever, it's not like you are here for anything other than throwing out more troll bait...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:24 am

That's just being Batman. Or Elliot from Leverage.

Anyone can make non-magical effects for a game that have a large mechanical effect. Here, I'll write up a new AW ability that has zero magic, but is big and "epical"-

Pre-Apoc Tech: You own an unexploded nuke. You may trigger this with a press of a button. Roll +Cool. On a 10+ you may destroy any one location with a blast that extends 1 mile past the bounds of the location, destroying anything and everyone within that location or mile. On a 7-9 you miss-fire, killing 50% of the population of the targeted location, but covering only half the location and extending three miles into the space between the outer edge of that location and yours. Anyone within 1 mile of the location dies, anyone between that and 3 miles suffers radiation sickness, taking 1 harm per day which cannot be cured without extensive medication which is hard to come by (4 barter). On a 6 or less you target your location, killing yourself, everyone within a mile of you, and causing radiation sickness to every creature within three miles of your location which doesn't die.

That's mundane (it's a nuke), and carries a heavy narrative punch. Hell, it's stronger than a lot of magical abilities you'll find in a lot of games.

And, sure, you can change the world as much as your GM allows. Your pissant Gimli clone can always find the World Knob and fiddle with it with no magical ability at all. But there's a difference between swinging a mundane weapon all day waiting to be allowed to change the world with something that feels like narrative control and actually having a character that gets built in abilities to change the story.

That doesn't require magic. If a modern game lets me play the President, that doesn't require magic, or even a high level character. I'd honestly laugh if someone tried to suggest that Barack Obama is more than 3rd level d20 character with max ranks in Profession (Constitutional Lawyer) and Knowledge (Law). But despite having no magic, and no particularly stellar magic, the president character would have narrative control.

There's a a huge difference between playing a character with magic and playing a character with narrative control. Narrative abilities don't give narrative control. Not To Be Fucked With is a narrative ability, it tells the story of being as formidable as 15 people in combat, but that's something every D&D character gets somewhere between level 8 and level 15, for free. Some do it by just having big numbers, some do it by summoning 14 dudes. Some do it by making fifteen attacks in a round. Hell, if you squeeze the rules enough, you can do it by being in control of carpets of vermin. All a narrative ability means is that it either tells a story, or so non-mechanical that it is purely narrative. Leadership is a narrative ability. It gives you a baggage train of followers who are not in any meaningful way able to contribute to combat, so they just follow you around and cheer you on to less effect than paying a 1st level bard a copper.

In a magical world like those of D&D or DW, characters need magic because magic is the currency of narrative change. Whether that magic is "Able to cast Major Creation" or "Owns a soulforge" doesn't matter, what matters is that they have magic they can use to affect the story. This is part of why I don't want any part of a Fellowship clone, because the party's access to magic is "we know a magic guy who sometimes shows up when we need him" and "we have this magic cancer artifact we're supposed to destroy." If the world wasn't a magical one, that might be fine. If you're playing an Arthurian wannabe, "we know a magic guy who sometimes shows up when we need him" is HUGE because most Arthurian threats are solid ghosts and other dudes with swords, with the occasional very-stabbable dragon. Because it's a mundane world with magic in it, not a magical world.

In a non-magical world, you still need abilities that are more than "fire off my gun." The Special Forces Survivalist guy needs "Cast Iron Stomach" that lets him get by in the wild for indefinite periods of time for a start. Not to Be Fucked With is an acceptable starting ability for the Rambo guy, where you get to shit enough lead in the air that you're making multiple attacks when other people are making one, or putting down suppressing fire on a squad by yourself, or focusing fire to hit one target like a sniper but you're holding a minigun. But these guys need to advance somewhere. At the tail end of the story, the Special Forces Survivor guy needs to be able to shit out a bunch of traps to fortify a position in a few hours, or cobble together a fucking warmachine from a wood shed like they're BA Baracus and the Rambo Guy needs... I don't know. Maybe he gets a number of marks that he can throw down at the start of combat to say "nope, that guy's not there, I killed him in his sleep last night."

These are narrative abilities (they tell a story) that have a narrative impact (they change the story in favor of the players) and are big enough that you care.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:19 pm

Mask_De_H wrote: physics or how the world works (which we materialistically interact with all the godsdamned time).

This is a real thing that happened:

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

People may have misconceptions and biases about how societies and nebulous or esoteric concepts work, but they damn sure understand how to do stuff in the real world.

Forget social sciences. Most people don't interact with swords, explosives, or large animals on a daily basis, and have no idea how those things works in the real world. Those that do, are generally familiar with weapons made with modern techniques and materials, and of course with the animals that are alive today, not the one that lived in ancient Europe or in prehistory. "Can a dude who is extremely healthy by 14th century standards kill a sabertooth tiger with an arqebus?" is not a question with a real answer.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:15 pm

Orion wrote:This is a real thing that happened:

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

I remember that post on the wizard forums. I am pretty sure that was a joke post.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:10 pm

Yeah, but it's a funny example of a general problem. Pick a rifle and ask a forum of war nerds what it can cannot shoot through. Pick a model of a-bomb and ask them at what range you can survive it and what kinds of shelter are most helpful. Let me know when they reach a consensus.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:50 pm

Orion wrote:Yeah, but it's a funny example of a general problem. Pick a rifle and ask a forum of war nerds what it can cannot shoot through. Pick a model of a-bomb and ask them at what range you can survive it and what kinds of shelter are most helpful. Let me know when they reach a consensus.

With a rifle or a bomb you have one very nice advantage. You can just buy one, set up a video camera, and do some tests. You can't really do the same with magic.