Heroes of the Shit: A Review

[...You Lost Me]

Oh dear god.

Find the quote where I say this is about laning and not about last hitting

Remember DSM, just because words are included in the post does not mean the post is about those words. If I said "I think you're stupid like Occluded Sun and you should learn this game" that does not mean I think Occluded Sun should learn this game, it means you should learn this game. For god's sake, the sentence after the first one you emphasized is this.

In addition to being a skill expression and a method of garnering early advantages, it also creates a constant pressure behind other game strategies (farm v take tower for example) and allows for non-deathball fights.

How the hell would that make sense if it was about the laning phase? Answer: It would not, because that sentence is talking about last hitting and not about laning phases. Laning phases cannot create a constant pressure, because they are a phase. If you could read, that would be apparent to you.

And please can you stop pretending that all it takes is a couple of tweaks and the game magically works? You obviously don't understand even the most basic parts of MOBA strategy, this is like listening to silva talk about steampunk.

[DSMatticus]

The mid- and late- are not not skillful, and both involve fighting in lane for reasons other than solely goldfarm. I'm not saying the MOBA early game should be "you watch minions murder eachother while your gold counter slowly goes up." I am saying that you could just cut the early game entirely by jiggering tower/unit/champ numbers around and skip right to the part where people are trying to win the game in the "crush the enemy and destroy their base" sense instead of the "gain relative advantage for later attempts to crush the enemy and destroy their base" sense. MOBA rounds take too goddamn long and the early game is really goddamn boring; cutting the early game DOTA created completely by accident seems like a smart move.

But it's not actually boring. Especially when you get to higher levels of play, you'll notice that the laning phase will have plenty of interaction. In addition to being a skill expression and a method of garnering early advantages, it also creates a constant pressure behind other game strategies (farm v take tower for example) and allows for non-deathball fights.

I think the only reason someone would find that "boring" is if they can't (or don't want to) understand the process. And that's fine if you don't -- a super casual MOBA without the laning phase would be a decent idea and I'm sure some people would like it -- but you are very wrong in thinking that sort of thing is boring or kept around purely for historical reasons.

MOBA rounds take too goddamn long and the early game is really goddamn boring

But it's not actually boring. Especially when you get to higher levels of play, you'll notice that the laning phase will have plenty of interaction. In addition to being a skill expression and a method of garnering early advantages, it also creates a constant pressure behind other game strategies (farm v take tower for example) and allows for non-deathball fights.

I think the only reason someone would find that "boring" is if they can't (or don't want to) understand the process. And that's fine if you don't -- a super casual MOBA without the laning phase would be a decent idea

DSM: X is boring.

YLM: "It" isn't boring. X has plenty of interaction. "It" is a skill expression and a method of garnering early advantages. If you find "that" boring, it's because you don't understand "the process." But a game without X would make a decent casual MOBA.

YLM: Also I was talking Y, not X. I mean, yes, I clearly responded to something you said about X. And I called out X by name twice in my post. And I didn't call out Y by name at all. And you didn't call out Y at all either. But I was talking about Y. Really. I swear. No joke. Please believe me.

Hahaha nope.

And please can you stop pretending that all it takes is a couple of tweaks and the game magically works?

Yes. "Changing all the fucking numbers" is just a couple of tweaks, and I am clearly understating the difficulty of such an undertaking, in that the one time I made any comment whatsoever even remotely related to what sort of undertaking it would be I described it as a "radical rebalancing."

Ignore. Just... ignore. Entirely too much bullshit.

[...You Lost Me]

So your response to being shown that the statement makes no goddamn sense if you put it inside any other context... is to just quote the post twice, lie about the content, and declare victory? Is this like a performance art where you pretend to be Occluded Sun, or what?

Yes. "Changing all the fucking numbers" is just a couple of tweaks, and I am clearly understating the difficulty of such an undertaking, in that the one time I made any comment whatsoever even remotely related to what sort of undertaking it would be I described it as a "radical rebalancing."

Ignore. Just... ignore. Entirely too much bullshit.

Yes, you literally think you just need to change the numbers. You are so completely out of the loop that you don't even understand the magnitude of the changes you're suggesting. And to add to that, you are taking hyperbole seriously. You are digging your own hole, and it's really pathetic.

It's actually super obvious that you know your ideas are dumb, because you're selectively responding to things instead of your normal DSM-style arguments where you respond to everything with giant essays.

[maglag]

I hate the concept of carries with a burning passion, that certain heroes should just ignore they're in a team at all and farmfarmfarm 90% of the game.

What sort of idiot thinks it's last hitting that makes or breaks laning phase skill anyway?

Laning phase decisions about pushing and not pushing, over extending or playing conservative, and every damn thing else still exist without last hitting.

Well actually, no they really don't. Because if you take out last hitting, there is no reason to overextend, pushing doesn't accomplish anything, and everyone can play conservative while doing whatever they want.

I mean, either your proximity gold mechanic is so forgivable that it doesn't matter, or it punishes ranged champs by being shorter than their autos or abilities, or it is tied to range somehow, and you did nothing but remove the attack animation that was a thing that actually allowed meaningful in lane trades.

C'mon, Kaelik, you're smarter than that. Even if you remove "last click: the farming", here's the reasons to overextend in laning:
-Wearing down and eventually destroying the enemy tower.
-Setting up ganks on the enemy heroes.
-Do fun stuff instead of telling your hero to not attack while watching the creep's HP slowly drop down.

[PhoneLobster]

Aside from unrelated reasons to push and over extend being pretty plentiful... I'm uncertain as to why Kaelik even thinks last hitting is one of them, let alone the only one.

I'm no master MOBA dick head. But I'm pretty sure that if Kaelik's last hitting alone is forcing him to push the enemy tower and over extend he is probably doing it wrong.

[Kaelik]

C'mon, Kaelik, you're smarter than that. Even if you remove "last click: the farming", here's the reasons to overextend in laning:
-Wearing down and eventually destroying the enemy tower.
-Setting up ganks on the enemy heroes.
-Do fun stuff instead of telling your hero to not attack while watching the creep's HP slowly drop down.

1) "Doing fun stuff" is basically nothing at this point. Like, you are basically saying "people will overextend because if they don't they will get bored" which probably just means your game sucks, and actually, they won't.
2) You don't set up ganks by overextending. You set up ganks by freezing the lane near your tower or trading, neither one of which you can even do in this hypothetical no last hit set up.
3) You can wear down the tower by pushing the wave in and then staying back. Most of the time the enemy player will push back just as hard and it won't work, but even when it does work, pushing the wave in and then backing off is the only correct move for most champs, because risking being overextended in the early game is fucking stupid.

Aside from unrelated reasons to push and over extend being pretty plentiful... I'm uncertain as to why Kaelik even thinks last hitting is one of them, let alone the only one.

I'm no master MOBA dick head. But I'm pretty sure that if Kaelik's last hitting alone is forcing him to push the enemy tower and over extend he is probably doing it wrong.

You are kind of dumb. If you are in the laning phase, certain champs who have certain advantages push the lane in such a way that it will push back towards them and they can freeze the lane near their turret. They do this so that they can deny CS to the other champ. If CS doesn't matter, then the other champ has no reason to overextend, since they can sit back at XP range and ignore the freeze while still being safe.

Overextending and pushing are really not the same thing, and their interrelationship can be complex.

[OgreBattle]

Last hitting is a dumb accident of a mechanic, it only makes a difference because most Mobas have auto attack and 100% accuracy for almost every attack so combat is mostly trading blows and looking at cool down timers. It'd be more involved if they had more active defense like Devil May Cry or Monster Hunter, game where you have to actually aim and dodge. Then the difference in skill between players in the same lane is expressed by how well they can fight while avoiding harm.

[RelentlessImp]

OgreBattle, the MOBA you want is Smite, a third-person over-the-shoulder perspective MOBA that forces you to aim and dodge via a combination of WASD+Mouse. It's pretty goddamned fun and a nice change - but last hitting still exists (though you get partial gold for being in lane when a minion dies).

[Kaelik]

Last hitting is a dumb accident of a mechanic, it only makes a difference because most Mobas have auto attack and 100% accuracy for almost every attack so combat is mostly trading blows and looking at cool down timers. It'd be more involved if they had more active defense like Devil May Cry or Monster Hunter, game where you have to actually aim and dodge. Then the difference in skill between players in the same lane is expressed by how well they can fight while avoiding harm.

I'm confused, are you completely ignorant of the fact that League of Legends exists, or are you an idiot?

Like, at this point League of Legends fucking design goal is to just mash as many different kinds of skill shots and defenses into their game as they can code to support.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

DSM, starting at mid game creates the HotS problem of your entire team wanting to be grouped all game because a lost teamfight nets you a serious disadvantage. It creates a stagnant and boring game based around one strategy.


On last hitting mattering: Last hitting as a mechanic does make pushing more worth it and also more difficult since you need to get last hits while doing as much damage to the wave as you can. Last hitting a wave under a turret is more difficult than just clearing a wave out in the middle of a lane and will generally make your opponent miss some gold. A big part of lane pushing in the early game is gold denial, the other parts are map pressure and harass (you can't fight back effectively without missing gold if you have to time hits so minions don't drop to turrets).

If last hitting was replaced with proximity gold or no gold everyone would shove the lane as quickly as possible and then leave to do something else. There would be very little interaction in lanes (like HotS) except ganks and other attempts to push the other side out of range or shove on a turret with a large group of champions. Since wave clearing is laughably easy for most champions the strategy of grouping to push a turret is stupid because one or two defenders can fend off a team for a wave or two (this is especially true in HotS with their healing fountains and gates), making any plays a bad idea unless a big objective is up.



Question for maglag to determine how full of shit he is: What akes HotS better than League's dominion, ARAM, and random goofy modes? If multiple maps are your big reason then you're as full of shit as they come, because the HotS variant maps are all the same thing. Collecting gold to shoot cannons vs collecting bone shards(?) to summon golems vs collecting seeds to make a plant thing vs collecting gems to summon spiders are all the same shit with different skins. There are 2 HotS maps: control an area or two for a giant advantage vs gather things for a giant advantage. Other than that they're essentially the same with really tiny differences in what drops things or where the areas you need to stand are.

[ishy]

So I started playing a bit of Heroes of the Storm and it is quite fun. But I don't really understand the terminology. Is there some noob guide to MOBAs, that explains things like 'botlane'?

[GreatGreyShrike]

So I started playing a bit of Heroes of the Storm and it is quite fun. But I don't really understand the terminology. Is there some noob guide to MOBAs, that explains things like 'botlane'?

I don't know any specific for Heroes of the Storm. Mostly you can figure things out as you go and from context cues. It's like learning a bit of additional language (quite literally at times if you end up playing with speakers of a foreign language). I recommend using whatever nonverbal communications are available to you (e.g. pings, etc).

"Lanes" are the routes that each sides "creeps/minions" (forces on your side that you don't control) walk down by themselves - typically leading from one base to the other team's base. In most MOBA games, lanes will be divided geographically into top, mid(dle), and bot(tom) of the map if the game you are playing is oriented such that that division is appropriate (if not, alternatives like 'left' or 'right' may be used if the map is oriented such that there are no obvious 'top' or 'bot'.

In dota we often see "safe" lane and "suicide/offlane" used - this refers to the relative difficulty of staying alive in each lane and controls who usually lanes there, and one team's safe lane is the other team's offlane etc. (for DotA, safe = bot for radiant and top for dire, and off = top for radiant and bot for dire).

[Orion]

Jesus, this is embarassing. YLM, it doesn't do any good to yell about how you are only talking about X and not Y if the other person is proposing changes to Y. It just means you're not responsive to their argument. At best you can explicitly declare the bounds of the topic your speaking to by acknowledging the nonresponsiveness. Say something like "I am arguing that if the game features protracted 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 laning as a means to amass gold, it will require last hitting to have interesting gameplay. If the game doesn't have laning, then I'm not speaking about last hitting in that case."

Meanwhile, DSM: I broadly agree with what everyone has already said about last hitting. I took a year off from League and got bad at it, which is frustrating me. But even when I end up fucking up the last hits, the little skirmishes that open up a window for me to flub them are interesting. I'm not certain it's 100% indispensable though. I have a little bit of difficulty following your argument, unfortunately. Are you advocating for laning without last hitting, or for no laning at all? If I understand your terminology, "early game" means "champions are too weak to push towers," while "laning" means "it's advantageousfor champions to operate singly or in pairs." Conceptually, there are four possible setups.

1: Champions begin the game too weak to push towers; they have a laning phase focused on amassing gold through last hits.
2: Champions begin the game too weak to push towers; they have a laning phase focused on amassing gold through proximity or some other mechanic.
3: Champions begin the game strong enough to push towers; they have a laning phase focused on pushing towers.
4: Champions begin the game strong enough to push towers; they have no laning phase, but can play for objective control, team fights, or multi-man ganks from the beginning.

When you advocate "getting rid of the early game," I assume that you're talking about 3 or 4, but I'm not sure which. I'm also not sure whether 3 is actually possible.

Meanwhile, I will say that I do believe "2" is doable. Kaelik thinks it's overly punitive if ranged champs have to come close than attack range to get gold off hte minions, but I'm not certain that's the case. Ranged usually have the edge on melee in lanes, and I wouldn't mind evening things up a bit. If you force a ranged champ to stand a hundred units inside their attack range to earn gold, they can at least project force behind the enemy minion line. The other player has the same short range gold collection, so a melee champ probably still risks a free shot when they go in to collect. The difference is that they're closer to safety if they get in trouble, and closed to the ranged enemy if they decide to engage. Give the ranged characters active defense to compensate and I think it works. Instead of focusing on timing last hits, let ranged attackers focus on staying ready to mash their dash or their slowing skill shot the moment danger strikes. As for support, there are lots of solutions. You could just give people a toggle button to turn gold harvesting on or off.

[...You Lost Me]

Orion if you read the posts, you'll notice that it's an argument is about how DSM is intellectually dishonest and/or cannot read. That's an entirely valid argument, and we have it with OS all the time. There are also other arguments about how it would kill a large amount of strategic diversity, to which DSM has replied "no man just change the numbers", and you will uncover those if you read the thread (hint: there's one on this page).

DSM's honest-to-god position is that last hitting is not useful, and that if you remove last hitting then the laning phase is also not useful and we can start right off where people start skirmishing and roaming. He invokes a bunch of handwavium to avoid criticism on specifics (of which there is plenty) but his argument still falls flat on its ass because both last-hitting and the earlygame have a lot more nuance than he assumes.

But since you probably won't have a screaming fit and refuse to read when people point out things to you, I'll show you what goes missing when your system is implemented in (for example) League of Legends:

• Denying with push. A common tactic when your opponent isn't good at last hitting (by virtue of player or champion) is to shove the creep wave under their tower. The tower does a fixed amount of damage in large quantities, which makes it significantly harder to last hit. Under your situation, denying with a push isn't useful anymore because the receiver can just afk under tower and get money. Stagnation is encouraged.
• Effective zoning. Unless proximity ranges become smaller than attack range (which is bad for obvious reasons), it becomes significantly easier to farm. Playing/watching high-skill games, you'll notice that people can spend a lot of time dancing within ranges close to their attack range for a long time while trying to last-hit. By making access to this gold easier, you make zoning harder. Strategic diversity in the laning phase drops.
• Farming weakness. A lot of characters are defined by their early inability to farm, which they compensate for with stronger presence later in the game. With a proximity gold mechanic, this weakness no longer exists. Ranged carries can have their lane supports with decent waveclear clear creeps while they gain gold from behind a human shield. This discourages interaction.

All of these see play fairly often. Against Vladimir and Vayne, you should shove the wave early because they can't last hit well. Characters like Blitzcrank and Teemo have their laning phase almost purely defined by their ability to zone the enemy beyond their attack range. Short-range carries like Vayne and Sivir are supposed to have a bad time farming safely because their range is so low. A serious amount of strategy is locked out by this change that you find kind of simple.

[...You Lost Me]

Orion if you read the posts, you'll notice that it's an argument is about how DSM is intellectually dishonest and/or cannot read. That's an entirely valid argument, and we have it with OS all the time. There are also other arguments about how it would kill a large amount of strategic diversity, to which DSM has replied "no man just change the numbers", and you will uncover those if you read the thread (hint: there's one on this page).

DSM's honest-to-god position is that last hitting is not useful, and that if you remove last hitting then the laning phase is also not useful and we can start right off where people start skirmishing and roaming. He invokes a bunch of handwavium to avoid criticism on specifics (of which there is plenty) but his argument still falls flat on its ass because both last-hitting and the earlygame have a lot more nuance than he assumes.

But since you probably won't have a screaming fit and refuse to read when people point out things to you, I'll show you what goes missing when your system is implemented in (for example) League of Legends:

• Denying with push. A common tactic when your opponent isn't good at last hitting (by virtue of player or champion) is to shove the creep wave under their tower. The tower does a fixed amount of damage in large quantities, which makes it significantly harder to last hit. Under your situation, denying with a push isn't useful anymore because the receiver can just afk under tower and get money. Stagnation is encouraged.
• Effective zoning. Unless proximity ranges become smaller than attack range (which is bad for obvious reasons), it becomes significantly easier to farm. Playing/watching high-skill games, you'll notice that people can spend a lot of time dancing within ranges close to their attack range for a long time while trying to last-hit. By making access to this gold easier, you make zoning harder. Strategic diversity in the laning phase drops.
• Farming weakness. A lot of characters are defined by their early inability to farm, which they compensate for with stronger presence later in the game. With a proximity gold mechanic, this weakness no longer exists. Ranged carries can have their lane supports with decent waveclear clear creeps while they gain gold from behind a human shield. This discourages interaction.

All of these see play fairly often. Against Vladimir and Vayne, you should shove the wave early because they can't last hit well. Characters like Blitzcrank and Teemo have their laning phase almost purely defined by their ability to zone the enemy beyond their attack range. Short-range carries like Vayne and Sivir are supposed to have a bad time farming safely because their range is so low. A serious amount of strategy is locked out by this change that you find kind of simple.

[DSMatticus]

I bailed on this thread because absolutely fucking no one seemed interested in reading what I was actually saying, and am very reluctant to resume watching people pretend to be outright retarded in the hopes of who-fucking-knows. But the point's not particularly difficult.

The mid-game (call it post-laning, whatever) is absolutely not driven by last-hitting, it is driven by a bunch of mini-objectives that move you closer to an overall win (towers/buffs/whatever). Proximity gold (instead of last-hitting) is an incredibly superficial change to this part of the game, because the big decisions people are making at this point are more important and more interesting than how much harass to expose themselves to.

In the early game (call it laning, whatever), going for those mini-objectives ranges from "dangerous" to "suicidal." It's a part of the game where there's very little to do besides compete for a relative advantage in XP/gold that will hopefully persist through the game. Proximity gold (instead of last-hitting) would make this phase exceptionally fucking boring, because it would remove almost all of the risk and a substantial amount of the decisions. But you can actually just remove the early game. The biggest reason it exists is because the advantage of fighting under a tower is very high at level 1 and because the power curve is a lot steeper from 1 to 2 than 2 to 3 and so on. It is not fundamentally shattering to just not have this part of the game, and frankly I don't think it's particularly interesting to begin with. I'd certainly give it up to shave that time off the average League match. Your average FPS has ten minute matches - the average League game is, what, 30+ minutes? It's kind of fucking crazy.

The only reason to keep last-hitting is that it makes the early-game worthwhile. But I posit that there's no compelling reason to keep the early-game as it exists in the first place, so who cares?

[maglag]

The only reason to keep last-hitting is that it makes the early-game worthwhile. But I posit that there's no compelling reason to keep the early-game as it exists in the first place, so who cares?

The people who want to play "Last Hit:The Farming" care.

Heck, look at the discussion at the LoL thread a few days ago, where there's people basically saying "Fuck the mid and late game, it's just boring garbage, if I can't get an overwhelming advantage with last-hitting alone in the first 10 minutes, then I just feel like quitting the match".

[Kaelik]

The only reason to keep last-hitting is that it makes the early-game worthwhile. But I posit that there's no compelling reason to keep the early-game as it exists in the first place, so who cares?

Hey did you notice that you just exactly described Heroes of the Storm, which has people competing for objectives where farm doesn't matter the whole game. And did you notice that Heroes is super fucking boring, in part because the absence of an Early game means that there is no such thing as obtaining power spikes in order to secure objectives such that the very absence of an early game makes the midgame itself super boring?

[...You Lost Me]

DSM and maglag, you obviously do not understand how the damn games work. Can you please stop pretending? The reason I don't care what you have to say is because what you have to say is wrong, has been wrong, and will continue to be wrong forever more.

[DSMatticus]

The only reason to keep last-hitting is that it makes the early-game worthwhile. But I posit that there's no compelling reason to keep the early-game as it exists in the first place, so who cares?

Hey did you notice that you just exactly described Heroes of the Storm, which has people competing for objectives where farm doesn't matter the whole game. And did you notice that Heroes is super fucking boring, in part because the absence of an Early game means that there is no such thing as obtaining power spikes in order to secure objectives such that the very absence of an early game makes the midgame itself super boring?

This is exactly what I mean by "pretend to be outright retarded." Kaelik's probably read the HotS review in this thread and knows he's full of shit, but why let that stop him?

Similarly, the suggestion that the midgame will somehow magically lose every ounce of its depth because the teams spend the first minute of it on relatively equal footing is a fucking joke. It was a joke when Pseudo said it and it's a joke now. It's a completely incoherent claim being made in what absolutely must be bad faith, because it's straight up impossible to believe that. "Nobody makes plays or takes risks unless they're up on gold!"

[MGuy]

The only reason to keep last-hitting is that it makes the early-game worthwhile. But I posit that there's no compelling reason to keep the early-game as it exists in the first place, so who cares?

Hey did you notice that you just exactly described Heroes of the Storm, which has people competing for objectives where farm doesn't matter the whole game. And did you notice that Heroes is super fucking boring, in part because the absence of an Early game means that there is no such thing as obtaining power spikes in order to secure objectives such that the very absence of an early game makes the midgame itself super boring?

This is exactly what I mean by "pretend to be outright retarded." Kaelik's probably read the HotS review in this thread and knows he's full of shit, but why let that stop him?

Similarly, the suggestion that the midgame will somehow magically lose every ounce of its depth because the teams spend the first minute of it on relatively equal footing is a fucking joke. It was a joke when Pseudo said it and it's a joke now. It's a completely incoherent claim being made in what absolutely must be bad faith, because it's straight up impossible to believe that. "Nobody makes plays or takes risks unless they're up on gold!"

Do you have an example of a HotS game where the first half of the game isn't just a bunch of waiting? An early game still exists in HotS and without a laning phase there's a waiting phase in its place because taking risks first means you're likely to get killed first. However, DSM, if you're so ready to believe that people who don't think that's a good idea have it all wrong then where is the game that does what you suggest and is good?

[DSMatticus]

Click HERE to view this post.

Spoiler: don't do it, it's always an awful idea.

I think you should actually read the review that started this thread before talking about HotS. You very obviously do not actually get the problems that game has (supposably, though I trust pseudo's review). It's a bloated slogfest with no meaningful abilities centralized completely around a single objective. Notice how those problems have nothing to do with a DOTA/League-style early game (or more appropriately the absence thereof).

Also, "oh yeah, well if it's such a good idea why hasn't it been done yet" is as fallacious as fallacious gets. "Grog dumb. If wheel good, someone already make wheel. Wheel not made yet, wheel bad. Grog dumb for want make wheel." Congratulations on making an argument that blindly validates any and every status quo that currently is, ever was, or ever will be. That's not fucking stupid at all, even though the two posters you'd be most likely to hear make that argument would be Infected Slut Princess and Occluded Sun. Kudos to you for thinking that one through.

But point made: your posts are also shit outside of IMHO. It seems the less heated subforums don't make you any less of a dumbass.

[...You Lost Me]

Do you have an example of a HotS game where the first half of the game isn't just a bunch of waiting? An early game still exists in HotS and without a laning phase there's a waiting phase in its place because taking risks first means you're likely to get killed first. However, DSM, if you're so ready to believe that people who don't think that's a good idea have it all wrong then where is the game that does what you suggest and is good?

DSM probably hasn't played HotS, nor has he actually understood the review of it. He thinks there's one objective and abilities are not meaningful, when the review says abilities decide the winners "before the game is even played" and references there being multiple objectives several times.

The argument is almost perfect OS plus maybe a little of one of the 5e defenders. "bounded accuracy removing last hitting is totally fine if you do it right, I swear to god. please stop making fun of me."

[Orion]

He thinks...abilities are not meaningful, when the review says abilities decide the winners "before the game is even played"

This is consistent. When we talk about meaningful abilities, we generally mean abilities that promote meaningful choices -- abilities that can swing the game in a big way if you pull them off right. If you can already win the game by team composition, then your abilities probably aren't meaningful in that sense.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

The people who want to play "Last Hit:The Farming" care.

Heck, look at the discussion at the LoL thread a few days ago, where there's people basically saying "Fuck the mid and late game, it's just boring garbage, if I can't get an overwhelming advantage with last-hitting alone in the first 10 minutes, then I just feel like quitting the match".

If this dipshit can't back up his statement he gets to be the first person to go on my ignore list. Silva hasn't even made it there.


To everyone saying worthwhile things: DSM hasn't mentioned how my explanation of the early game being meaningful is wrong. I suspect that's because it isn't, and he knows it and so he keeps pretending he made an argument that he never made.

To recap: you take risks when the reward is worth it and the punishment for failing isn't that bad. The punishment for losing a teamfight or even a team member in the mid-late game (in HotS this is all game except the first two minutes) is "get put very far behind/lose." The punishment for fucking up a play in the early game is "slight lead given/lost." That's why you see so much action in the early game in professional League, and a decent portion of why HotS is shitty.