*World: GM- or Player-driven ? [Frank, DSMatticus stay out]

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*World: GM- or Player-driven ? [Frank, DSMatticus stay out]

Post by silva »

Opening this topic for not polluting the BitD thread. Im repeating my question to Orion (and other people interested in discussing the point):
Orion wrote:What it is is a manual for improvisational single-author fiction (with audience participation like when improv actors ask people to shout prompts). Listening to people to storytellers used to be a very popular hobby, and evidently still is in some circles. AW appears to inspire MCs to tell stories audiences like to listen to,
Curious. What makes you think AW is this kind of "GM tells his story for the audience" kind of game ? Because this is the exact opposite both from: a) how the rules read in my experience, b) how the game behaves in my actual-play experience, and c) how the game is played by all groups I know (from real life and internet reports).

In fact, AW is the most radical player-driven game I know of, to the point that some traditional-games GMs have difficulty in learning how to play it. I would say that is realized due to, between other things, the central game philosophy of "Dont Prep Plots!" and "Play to Find what Happens!", which the rules seems to be the mechanical extension of.

So, my question, again, is: What in the book (or actual experience) made you think that the game is supposed to be played in a mode where "the GM tells a story to the audience" ? If anything, this is everything the game is anathema to. At least by my reading and play experience.
Last edited by silva on Fri May 01, 2015 11:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Orion »

"Don't prep plots" and "play to find out what happens" just mean that it's improvistaional single-author storytelling rather than scripted single-author storytelling. They don't guarantee that the players contribute anything.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Instead of this bullshit, we should spend this thread asking the really interesting questions. Why does Silva post here? How do we make him stop? Failing that, how do we keep him from making the exact same thread every couple of weeks?
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Post by silva »

@DSMatticus:

Sorry but if your sole purpose here is to troll my person and this thread, you dont give me other choice. So please, get out. (see thread title)

If you change your mind and decide to actual discuss the topic matter, PM me and I will change it again.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

It's really easy to set up a player driven world - just give them authorship abilities which ectend beyond a single PC per player. This can be as simple as letting a D&D player define their character's racial culture, or as involved as having players define the overlapping villainous consparicies that will drive a superhero game before anyone generates their characters.
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Post by Leress »

In fact, AW is the most radical player-driven game I know of, to the point that some traditional-games GMs have difficulty in learning how to play it.
That conclusion doesn't come from that premise.
I would say that is realized due to, between other things, the central game philosophy of "Dont Prep Plots!" and "Play to Find what Happens!", which the rules seems to be the mechanical extension of.


I can think of a game that does player driven aspects better, Minimus.*

*The game was free, but for some reason it is now $3.

Edit the second: You can still get it here for free
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/minimus
Last edited by Leress on Sat May 02, 2015 1:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

Just remember, if you disagree with a conclusion, just make a thread and ban the person arguing for that conclusion, that way you can be sure to get only the answer you already want to hear. (Except that you are so wrong everyone is telling you that you are wrong.)
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Post by Grek »

GM driven. Stop posting terrible threads.
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Post by erik »

DSMatticus wrote:Instead of this bullshit, we should spend this thread asking the really interesting questions. Why does Silva post here? How do we make him stop? Failing that, how do we keep him from making the exact same thread every couple of weeks?
I usually try to not click on his threads, not always successfully, obviously... your fault by the way for making me see what you did to get added to the "don't post" list. Definitely not click to read his posts. That way I can't accidentally get sucked into his self-admitted trolling.

I'm sadly not motivated enough to gin up a plug-in or script that would enable me to make it so threads created by silva don't show up on my screen. Something that comments out the block of html code associated with a thread where silva shows up as thread creator.

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Post by deaddmwalking »

I thought DSMatticus's question was the best part of this thread, and also the part I'm most curious about.

But to avoid contributing nothing, I think it's a given that most systems give primary authorial control to the GM. Accepting that, does improvisational content creation necessarily lead to quantum bears? Is scripted content inherently better?
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Post by MGuy »

I think the real question is what do Quantum Bear mechanics add? Why would you want a game that has yes you succeed but also bears as a mechanic? I can understand why Frank hates the system so much, because it specifically has a mechanic that basically says "The character succeeds BUT also bears" instead of something more sane like degrees of success. I don't think anyone is against something like the latter but the former is why people fill these threads with unbearable puns.
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Post by silva »

Ok, going back to the actual topic..
Orion wrote:"Don't prep plots" and "play to find out what happens" just mean that it's improvistaional single-author storytelling rather than scripted single-author storytelling. They don't guarantee that the players contribute anything.
Except the book explicitly contradicts you:
Pg 108, Apocalypse World wrote: "Play to find out what happens: there’s a certain discipline you need in order to MC Apocalypse World. You have to commit yourself to thegame’s fiction’s own internal logic and causality, driven by the players’ characters. You have to open yourself to caring what happens, but when it comes time to say what happens, you have to set what you hope for aside. The reward for MCing, for this kind of GMing, comes with the discipline. When you find something you genuinely care about — a question about what will happen that you genuinely want to find out — letting the game’s fiction decide it is uniquely satisfying."
See that "driven by the players characters" over there ? :wink: Besides it, there are various other passages in the GM chapter where the author explicitly instructs about the importance of following though the players inputs. See: (I emphasized important parts, if you dont want to read the whole thing)
Apocalypse World wrote:"Ask provocative questions and build on the answers. Start simple: “What’s your living space like?” “Who’s known each other longest?” But as play proceeds, ask for immediate and intimate details of the characters’ experiences.... Once you have the player’s answer, build on it.... refer to it later in play, bringing it back into currency; and use it to inform your own developing apocalyptic aesthetic, incorporating it — and more importantly, its implications — into your own vision."

"Always give the characters what they work for! the way to make a character’s success interesting is to make it consequential. When a character accomplishes something, have all of your NPCs respond. Reevaluate all those PC–NPC–PC triangles you’ve been creating. Whose needs
change? Whose opinions change? Who was an enemy, but now is afraid; who was an enemy, but now sees better opportunities as an ally? Let the characters’ successes make waves outward, let them topple the already unstable situation. There are no status quos in Apocalypse World! Even life doesn’t always suck. "

"Springboard off character creation: The players’ characters are made of interesting details you can build on. Look at the hardholder’s gigs, for instance: each of those gigs has people responsible for it, crews that answer to the hardholder and have names and relationships and all kinds of loose ends. Name everyone! Make everyone human! Look at the Chopper’s gang,
the operator’s crew, the hocus’ followers. Look at what the players created when they were doing Hx with each other. Look at where they come from and what must be around them."

"Ask questions like crazy. Ask about the landscape, the sky, the people and their broken lives too, don’t just tell, share. Turn a player’s question over to the group: “I don’t know, where DO you get your food?” But especially, anything you want to know, ask. Anything you think might be interesting later, ask. Anything a player says that sticks out, anything that seems like the tip of an iceberg, or like fish moving under water, ask."

"Nudge the players to have their characters make moves. Start with the characters with beginning-of-session moves: the hardholder, the operator, the hocus, the savvyhead, if you’ve got them. That’s now, the first beginning of the first session. Have them make those moves and follow what happens. Then throughout the session, remind everyone to look at their character sheets to see what moves they might make."

"Build on what the players said when they introduced their characters. “So Keeler, Marie, you two have this raiding thing out on the wilderness road, where Marie stands lookout and Keeler attacks travelers in the night? Let’s see that. It’s before dawn…”
Aside from play instructions by the author, there are 2 other elements that enforce the player-driven nature of the game:

1) The First Session sheet. This is the game "mission control", where the GM tracks all entities the group is dealing with in a way or another. And this is explicitly built through the input of the player-characters - threats, friendlies, suppliers, buyers, holdings, cults, you name it, all come from the players inputs in the first session, and from there it sets the direction the whole campaign will follow.

2) Player "moves". The ones from enterpreneur playbooks (Hardholder, Operator, Hocus, etc) are specially disruptive for the current "game-state" (since they can obligate the GM to produce entire entites or events from scratch, depending on what the player chooses for their starting stuff, or how good or bad the player rolls on specific situatoins), but even simple ones like "Lost" from the Skinner (which makes you call a person by name while on a dream and then he/she simply comes for you whatever the situation) can exert a considerable force on the game's direction. Even Read a sitch and Act under Fire - basic moves that all characters share - exerts a strong direction on the game, as it may oblige the GM to establish pieces of fiction (and follow through with them), even if it wasnt considered before.

Notice that yes, the GM will be improvising a lot of things out there, but he only does so at the players prompts. Moves are game-state changers, and thus, dictate the game directions. The GM will also have input in the process as, sometimes, the specifics of the fiction will be created from scratch, but even then, he is obligued to create things that are coherent with the situation at hand, and with the players intentions in the first place.
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Post by Leress »

Now the question is do the mechanics of the game reflect what is in your spoiler section*?

*Even though half of the is shit that can be done in pretty much any game.
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Post by virgil »

Leress wrote:
In fact, AW is the most radical player-driven game I know of, to the point that some traditional-games GMs have difficulty in learning how to play it.
That conclusion doesn't come from that premise.
It certainly doesn't. In fact, I have yet to see a single argument of *-World's enhanced player agency that doesn't consist of just pointing at the book and saying your work here is done. You want cooperative storytelling, gaming, and strong player agency? How do games like Universalis, Fiasco, or Munchausen not endow its participants with greater agency than *-World?
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Post by Aryxbez »

Failing that, how do we keep him from making the exact same thread every couple of weeks?
It does feel like there's some redundance in threads me makes, does seem like he could be better served consolidating his thoughts to more focused threads, opposed to making new topics. Especially with sometimes it seems his own threads answer themselves in 1-2 posts if he took the time to look up his queries. Anycase, I think silva should consider these notions, as they're not insult, but observation of alleged behavior.


Now then, the Spoilered section does seem to be pressing for great amount of work from a given GM. Which those philosophy's there sounds very daunting for any new GM's, especially ones that aren't "super DMs" whom already mastered improv beyond needing *World to do it. The rules there, where they have to make up increasingly more and more situations, with then varied inconsistent "But" consequences, threatens the game more and more to unraveling. Games are meant there to do the labor of keeping things consistent and fair to tell the stories the game wishes to emulate, *world's methods there threatens that. Because DM's are human, asking them to constantly make up more and more "consequences" is going to vary in severity, especially when no rules there to help "balance" those decisions.

While those inputs came from the players, most groups players will contribute minimal, or possibly even contradictory input. As asking them such fine details is something they're going to discover as they're playing the game, and that players at times at ends articulating what they wanted all along. So, the most valuable input for the game to get going, is going to come from the GM, the one doing the most work is going to be the GM, so therefore *World games are GM-based. Not to mention of course, the railroading various decisions can cause, but yeah.
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Post by tussock »

I think, Silva, what you're missing is that none of those things are even player participation. It tells the GM to riff off the character's backgrounds, ask the players stuff all the time, inflict things on them that matter to the them, let them inspire the backgrounds for the scene, let them declare broad styles of action.

That's exactly how stage improv works. You ask the audience who your character is, you ask them what he's doing, you ask them where he's doing it, you start describing the thing and then you ask more questions and riff off the entire thing, even asking what genre you're emulating and have it change half-way through, as a continuous story.

But the audience aren't participating in that, they're just being used as a randomiser for the improv session the actors on stage are performing. So that it's "improvisational", rather than scripted. *World adds dice for extra randomisation, but stage shows pull cards out of a hat or something too.


In 3e, the DM places a bear, players may or may not open the door, if they do the players make things happen. Attacking the bear is a rule and is does things in the rules and the DM, if using the rules, just has to put up with all that until it's the bear's turn, and then they follow rules too. Until the rules say to stop.

In *W, the GM describes a door, the players suggest anything, but the DM describes the bear crashing through the door as part of their success or failure or anything they tried to do. The players suggest fighting or anything else and the DM may describe exactly the same events and wounds and everything else they imagine regardless of what they attempt or roll by just flavouring the output slightly differently to riff on what players tried and what they rolled.

Yes, good stage improv (and good *World GMing, because that's what it is) makes the audience feel connected to the action at every step, gets them calling out shit all the time, adds seemingly random turns and twists based on various other randomisation means. It's still improv.


So.

1) Yes, the players set the precise scene to a limited extent (though it's a post-apocolypse setting already, or a dungeon for dungeon-world, you're not really changing much compared to stage improv) but only if the GM can work with it and doesn't need to immediately hang a left and introduce bears.

2) Player moves are like calling out "banana" when they ask for what the policeman in the car park has in his pocket, only you can call it out without them asking and make it even less appropriate. But there's bears anyway. A good improv actor won't literally spam bears at you, but if they're thinking of a bear it doesn't matter what you do or what you say or what you roll because it can always take the form of a bear.

Because you say banana and so there's a bear trying to peel a banana. *World.

In it's favour, with such a small audience, and rules guaranteeing them an allowance of inspiration the GM is required to add to their improv (when the GM actually asks for it in most cases), that could totally be a fun experience. Playing could feel like making the monkey dance for his bananas, and GMing could be exhausting as you try and keep up with the random twists and turns.

So I see what you mean when you say it's "player-driven". The GM is using the players to drive the narrative. I also see what "GM-driven" means, because they're the ones actually playing the game and telling the story. Depends what you mean by "driven".
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Post by silva »

Tussock, here is what I mean by "driven":

GM-driven gameplay: *Preps the whole adventure from start to finish, from scene A to B to Climax. Opens the session with: "So, you are at the tavern, and and old man looks at you and.... Player input only has inpact at a small level. The overarching script is already in place and will change little regardless. See: most published adventures or sample adventures in the industry.

Player-driven gameplay: GM does little prep, just follow through with players input, building upon these. and reacting / improvising as necessary. "So, what do you do now ? This ? ok, roll. Awesome, that happens. What now ? That ? Ok, roll. Oops. sorry, you fail and now are in trouble. Etc. always letting the dice fall where they may, and following through with it. Player-decisions have a much larger on the direction the adventure goes (and in the consequent "plot" that will be formed).
Tussock wrote:In *W, the GM describes a door, the players suggest anything, but the DM describes the bear crashing through the door as part of their success or failure or anything they tried to do.
What ? Sorry, this dont make sense. See the definition of player-driven above. The GM cant produce anything out of his ass. He must follow through with players intentions, rolls results, and the given situation internal logic (this is explicitly written in the text, by the way). See the part about player "Moves" in my previous post - these dictate what happens in the game. The GM cant circumvent this like he can in a GM-driven game.
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Post by Kaelik »

silva wrote:Player-driven gameplay: GM does little prep, just follow through with players input, and builds upon these. "So, what do you do now ? This ? ok, roll. Awesome, that happens. What now ? That ? Ok, roll. Oops. sorry, you fail and now are in trouble. Etc."
The bolded part is false. What actually happens is that you as the DM are explicitly told to say "Awesome, that doesn't happen, or if it does happen, it still doesn't happen, because something completely different that I just pulled out of my ass happens instead."
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Post by silva »

Nope. See my previous post for the actual passages from the book.

Ive found this discussion about Apocalypse World on story-games forum. Its interesting because it touches exactly on what we are talking about here (Illusionism, Player-driven,etc): http://story-games.com/forums/discussio ... apocalypse

The parts below are particularly interesting:
CarpeGuitarrem wrote:You can certainly cheat in the fiction, but that runs counter to "always say what honesty demands". The key to *World games is understanding that honesty doesn't demand one specific result, but could demand a range of results. You pick the result which lets you best be a fan of the players.

So if you wanted to look for cheating, it'd be ignoring what honesty says in favor of substituting your own desired outcome. You can do it subtly or not-so-subtly, leveraging the information that players don't know. If you suddenly tell them "moving past this guard requires you to tap into the psychic maelstrom" because you needed to send the plot forward through the maelstrom (and they picked a different path), they won't know any better, unless they're savvy. You're the MC, though, so they trust you to get everything making sense.
and..
Paul T wrote:Having said that, there are a number of features of the system which lend it to being highly player-driven.


Edit: in short -

1. Apocalypse World presents a certain written "contract" in the form of its moves. When this happens in the fiction -> we roll these dice, with these numbers meaning a good outcome -> we get a reliable result (as described in the move). A lot of Illusionist behaviour (but not all) is invalidated by this structure.

(In "traditional" Illusionist games, I've often seen GMs deny each of these steps: "No, you don't get to roll here." -> "Yeah, you can roll, but the penalty is so high that you can't succeed." -> "Ok, you got a success, but it turns out it's not good enough.")

2. The whole game is set up so that the leverage available to the characters/players starts out very high and just keeps increasing, so their impact on their milieu is (almost) inevitable.

As for Illusionism, the best places for an MC to apply her leverage to get the fiction to turn out a certain way are:

A. Fictional positioning. Lots of leeway here: you can still do the old "Ok, you won the fight, but it turns out the 'real' guards were around the corner the whole time" thing most of the time, should you wish to.

B. MC moves: on failed rolls, there is no real "contract" as to what failure looks like. The system explicitly gives the MC permission to turn failure into success, for example (so long as you follow the Principles).

C. Be selective about which moves are triggered and when. (The 16 HP dragon is a good example of this: the MC cannot force modifiers on players' rolls or set difficulty numbers, but instead she has a lot of control over which moves are made and when. When a PC attacks the ninja, can he/she roll to Hack & Slash/seize by force, or is the ninja being so menacing that they must roll to Defy Danger just to get in close?)

I'd say that, by the rules, none of these are "cheating" so long as they follow the Agenda and Principles. So, making more guards appear just because you don't want to see the PC break into the vault just yet is cheating. But making more guards appear because that's going to make the PCs' lives more interesting or because that's being honest to your prep, that's all good.
Last edited by silva on Sat May 02, 2015 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

In my opinion, a world needs to be GM driven, so that it is not static too much outside of what the players do in it . . it needs to be moving forward in time, changing in places in an internally consistent manner . .
Sadly, this places so much on the GM that barely anybody ever even tries.
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Post by momothefiddler »

silva wrote:GM-driven gameplay: *Preps the whole adventure from start to finish, from scene A to B to Climax. Opens the session with: "So, you are at the tavern, and and old man looks at you and.... Player input only has inpact at a small level. The overarching script is already in place and will change little regardless. See: most published adventures or sample adventures in the industry.
Is this hyperbole? If this is your definition of GM-driven, even the most railroady shit I've played was player-driven, and it's no longer an exciting positive quality of a game so much as it is a sign that your GM is not both really really really new and really really really bad.

Fuck, even the GM in After the Dark didn't control everything to that extent and ever since I saw that movie I hold it up as the pinnacle of How Not To GM.
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Post by Leress »

GM-driven gameplay: *Preps the whole adventure from start to finish, from scene A to B to Climax. Opens the session with: "So, you are at the tavern, and and old man looks at you and.... Player input only has inpact at a small level. The overarching script is already in place and will change little regardless. See: most published adventures or sample adventures in the industry.
That is just plain railroading. It also something that new GMs do much like training wheels.
Player-driven gameplay: GM does little prep, just follow through with players input, building upon these. and reacting / improvising as necessary. "So, what do you do now ? This ? ok, roll. Awesome, that happens. What now ? That ? Ok, roll. Oops. sorry, you fail and now are in trouble. Etc. always letting the dice fall where they may, and following through with it. Player-decisions have a much larger on the direction the adventure goes (and in the consequent "plot" that will be formed).
This what more experience GMs can do. Here it the thing though, what you describe is more based on the GM's experience level, but for some reason you make it some sort of dichotomy even though it is more of a scale. The things that you have in the spoiler section are things that are in most GM guides of many RPGs or Gaming blogs/articles. I ask again what make the _World books so special?

_Worlds look more restrictive since it seem to assign a personality to a player's character, and really small list of stuff I can have at first. The playbooks more restrictive than classes from other games.
Last edited by Leress on Sat May 02, 2015 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

Kaelik wrote:
silva wrote:Player-driven gameplay: GM does little prep, just follow through with players input, and builds upon these. "So, what do you do now ? This ? ok, roll. Awesome, that happens. What now ? That ? Ok, roll. Oops. sorry, you fail and now are in trouble. Etc."
The bolded part is false. What actually happens is that you as the DM are explicitly told to say "Awesome, that doesn't happen, or if it does happen, it still doesn't happen, because something completely different that I just pulled out of my ass happens instead."
As silva very likely said Kaelik's wrong, keep in mind that we consider in text examples like "you need to kill a child before it alerts the guards" and "you notice an unbeatably large force of cultists surrounding the building" to both be full-on failures, not "success at a cost" or "success." And in both cases, the book explicitly tells the GM to encourage failure and struggle, because evidently the players can't?

As for Silva's strange idea of what "player driven" means, the GM is still being the gatekeeper for everything. They still decides how successes & failures are measured. Every piece of input is filtered through the GM's ideas and preferences and mood, and guidelines are sufficiently loose as to be near-meaningless by our standards.

Again, Universalis & Fiasco do way better jobs at empowering participants without prepping plots.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

silva wrote:
Pg 108, Apocalypse World wrote:"You have to commit yourself to thegame’s fiction’s own internal logic and causality, driven by the players’ characters.
Note that it says that the story is driven by the player characters, not by the player's. That's really important because in AW the MC actually controls what the PCs do.
Ask provocative questions and build on the answers.... "How do her lips feel under your palm.
I assume that the player already indicated that they are having an intimate moment, but probably didn't say "I stroke her lips with my palm." Because wat.
MC Moves wrote:Make them buy. "So Keeler, you've just resupplied your ammo with Grammar -- that's 1-barter by the way -- and as you're leaving..."Give every character good screen time with other characters.... Make a pairing or tripling that you like, then ask the players to justify it.
The Advanced fuckery chapter introduces "setup moves" which can be used to start the first session or to handle a time skip. One of them lists some NPC sand asks Which you're enslaved, which you've killed, and which you're in love with. (Yes, it's a compulsory game of fuck, marry, kill) They can also declare facts like, "You've been eating some seriously weird-ass stuff." "You're missing time, sometimes hours a day.", (!) and "You've been totally relying on Gams for fresh veg."
Last edited by Orion on Sat May 02, 2015 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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malak
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Post by malak »

How completely unexpected that this thread degenerated into a quantum bears shouting match.
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