Beguiler (My Version)

[RadiantPhoenix]

The Beguiler isn't OGC, AFAIK, so I decided to make my own version.

And, while I was at it, I decided to make some changes.

Beguiler
"Shut Up! You can't call everything the ultimate illusion!" Beguilers deceive people.

HD: d6
BAB: Bad (Wizard)
Skills: 6+Int
Good Saves: Reflex, Will
Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.
Weapons: Simple and Martial
Armor: Light Armor but no shields [/td][/tr]

		Spellcasting	Spellcasting	Spellcasting	Spellcasting
Class Level	Misc Class Features	Spell Level	At-Will	Daily	Advanced Learning
1	Armored Mage, Trapfinding, Crafting	1	Disguise Self, Cantrips	Sleep, Undetectable Alignment
2	Sneaky Casting (Spell Resistance)	1	Silent Image	Hypnotism
3		1		Charm Person	1st Level
4		2	Minor Image	Glitterdust
5	Expert Tactician	2		Hypnotic Pattern
6		3	Major Image, Dispel Magic	Deep Slumber
7		3	Suggestion	Invisibility Sphere	3rd Level
8		4	Locate Creature	Charm Monster
9		4		Solid Fog
10		5	Seeming, Break Enchantment	Feeblemind
11		5		Dominate Person	5th Level
12	Sneaky Casting (Antimagic)	6	Greater Dispel Magic	Shadow Walk
13		6	Veil, Sending	Programmed Image
14		7	Project Image	Screen
15		7		Mass Charm Monster	7th Level
16		8	Mind Blank	Demand, Discern Location
17	Sneaky Casting (Deny Ability Score)	8		Power Word Stun
18		9		Dominate Monster
19		9		Time Stop	9th Level
20		9	Power Word Kill	Astral Projection

Spellcasting Progression (Sp): A Beguiler learns various spell-like abilities, as indicated on the table. Spell-like abilites in the at-will column can be used an unlimited number of times per day, while those in the daily column can be used once per day. Unless otherwise specified, a spell-like ability is considered to be of the spell level indicated in the appropriate column of the table for the level at which wit was gained. All subcolumns under spellcasting are considered to be a spellcasting progression for anything that cares about such. All of the save DCs for Beguiler abilities equal to 10 + 1/2 character level + Intelligence modifier, rounded up.

Cantrips (Sp): A Beguiler knows dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound, message, open/close, and read magic as 0-level spell-like abilities usable at will.

Advanced Learning (Sp): At each level at which this column has an entry, a Beguiler may learn any Enchantment or Illusion spell of the indicated level or lower as a spell-like ability usable once per day.

Crafting: A Beguiler may maintain a spellbook and learn any Enchantment or Illusion spell as though she were a Wizard, but may not cast spells learned in this way. These spells known are used for crafting and activating magic items.

Armored Mage: A Beguiler does not suffer arcane spell failure from gear with which she is proficient. Wait, do spell-like abilities suffer arcane spell failure? I'm not sure.

Trapfinding: As per the Rogue class feature of the same name.

Sneaky Casting: Unwary foes find it more difficult to stop a Beguiler's magic. Any creature that would be denied its dexterity bonus to AC against the Beguiler, or that she flanks, is considered "Unwary". As the Beguiler goes up in level, the benefits she gains against Unwary foes increase.

• Level 2: Spell Penetration: A 2nd level Beguiler automatically defeats any spell resistance or similar on an Unwary target.
• Level 12: Anti-Antimagic: Any antimagic or similar effect whose caster is Unwary has no effect on the 12th level Beguiler's spells
• Level 17: Deny Ability Score Bonus: Against a 17th level Beguiler, an Unwary target may not add his or her ability score bonus to saves.

Expert Tactician: A 5th level Beguiler gains the [Combat] feat Expert Tactician as a bonus feat. Note that the Beguiler does not natively have full base attack bonus.


Probably-LaTeX code for Lokathor's convenience:

Code: Select all

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\begin{document}

\section{{[}Tome{]} Beguiler}
\begin{quotation}
``Shut Up! You can't call everything the ultimate illusion!''
\end{quotation}
Beguilers deceive people.
\begin{description}
\item [{HD:}] d6
\item [{BAB:}] Bad (Wizard)
\item [{Skills:}] 6+Int
\item [{Good~Saves:}] Reflex, Will
\item [{Class~Skills:}] Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration,
Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist,
Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge
(local), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense
Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble,
Use Magic Device.
\item [{Weapons:}] Simple and Martial
\item [{Armor:}] Light Armor but no shields
\end{description}
\begin{table}[h]
\begin{tabular*}{1\columnwidth}{@{\extracolsep{\fill}}|>{\raggedright}p{0.05\columnwidth}|>{\raggedright}p{0.2\columnwidth}|>{\centering}p{0.05\columnwidth}|>{\centering}p{0.2\columnwidth}|>{\centering}p{0.2\columnwidth}|>{\centering}p{0.1\columnwidth}|}
\hline 
\multirow{2}{0.05\columnwidth}{Level} & \multirow{2}{0.2\columnwidth}{Misc Special} & \multicolumn{4}{>{\centering}p{0.5\columnwidth}}{Spellcasting Progression}\tabularnewline
\cline{3-6} 
 &  & Spell Level & At-Will & Daily & Advanced Learning\tabularnewline
\hline 
\hline 
1 & Armored Mage, Trapfinding, Crafting & 1 & \emph{Disguise Self,} Cantrips & \emph{Sleep, Undetectable Alignment} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
2 & Sneaky Casting (Spell Resistance) & 1 & \emph{Silent Image} & \emph{Hypnotism} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
3 &  & 1 &  & \emph{Charm Person} & 1st Level\tabularnewline
\hline 
4 &  & 2 & \emph{Minor Image} & \emph{Glitterdust} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
5 & Expert Tactician & 2 &  & \emph{Hypnotic Pattern} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
6 &  & 3 & \emph{Major Image, Dispel Magic} & \emph{Deep Slumber} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
7 &  & 3 & \emph{Suggestion} & \emph{Invisibility Sphere} & 3rd Level\tabularnewline
\hline 
8 &  & 4 & \emph{Locate Creature} & \emph{Charm Monster} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
9 &  & 4 &  & \emph{Solid Fog} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
10 &  & 5 & \emph{Seeming, Break Enchantment} & \emph{Feeblemind} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
11 &  & 5 &  & \emph{Dominate Person} & 5th Level\tabularnewline
\hline 
12 & Sneaky Casting (Antimagic) & 6 & \emph{Greater Dispel Magic} & \emph{Shadow Walk} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
13 &  & 6 & \emph{Veil, Sending} & \emph{Programmed Image} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
14 &  & 7 & \emph{Project Image} & \emph{Screen } & \tabularnewline
\hline 
15 &  & 7 &  & \emph{Mass Charm Monster} & 7th Level\tabularnewline
\hline 
16 &  & 8 & \emph{Mind Blank} & \emph{Demand, Discern Location} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
17 & Sneaky Casting (Deny Ability Score) & 8 &  & \emph{Power Word Stun} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
18 &  & 9 &  & \emph{Dominate Monster} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
19 &  & 9 &  & \emph{Time Stop} & 9th Level\tabularnewline
\hline 
20 &  & 9 & \emph{Power Word Kill} & \emph{Astral Projection} & \tabularnewline
\hline 
\end{tabular*}

\caption{Beguiler}


\end{table}



\paragraph{Spellcasting Progression (Sp):}

A Beguiler learns various spell-like abilities, as indicated on the
table. Spell-like abilites in the at-will column can be used an unlimited
number of times per day, while those in the daily column can be used
once per day. Unless otherwise specified, a spell-like ability is
considered to be of the spell level indicated in the appropriate column
of the table for the level at which wit was gained. All subcolumns
under spellcasting are considered to be a spellcasting progression
for anything that cares about such. All of the save DCs for Beguiler 
abilities equal to 10 + 1/2 character level + Intelligence modifier, 
rounded up.


\paragraph{Cantrips (Sp):}

A Beguiler knows\emph{ dancing lights, daze, detect magic, ghost sound,
message, open/close, }and\emph{ read magic} as 0-level spell-like
abilities usable at will\emph{.}


\paragraph{Advanced Learning (Sp):}

At each level at which this column has an entry, a Beguiler may learn
any Enchantment or Illusion spell of the indicated level or lower
as a spell-like ability usable once per day.


\paragraph{Crafting:}

A Beguiler may maintain a spellbook and learn any Enchantment or Illusion
spell as though she were a Wizard, but may not cast spells learned
in this way. These spells known are used for crafting and activating
magic items


\paragraph{Armored Mage:}

A Beguiler does not suffer arcane spell failure from gear with which
she is proficient. Wait, do spell-like abilities suffer arcane spell
failure? I'm not sure.


\paragraph{Trapfinding:}

As per the Rogue class feature of the same name.


\paragraph{Sneaky Casting:}

Unwary foes find it more difficult to stop a Beguiler's magic. Any
creature that would be denied its dexterity bonus to AC against the
Beguiler, or that she flanks, is considered ``Unwary''. As the Beguiler
goes up in level, the benefits she gains against Unwary foes increase.


\subparagraph{Level 2: Spell Penetration:}

A 2nd level Beguiler automatically defeats any spell resistance or
similar on an Unwary target.


\subparagraph{Level 12: Anti-Antimagic:}

Any antimagic or similar effect whose caster is Unwary has no effect
on the 12th level Beguiler's spells


\subparagraph{Level 17: Deny Ability Score Bonus:}

Against a 17th level Beguiler, an Unwary target may not add his or
her ability score bonus to saves.


\paragraph{Expert Tactician:}

A 5th level Beguiler gains the {[}Combat{]} feat Expert Tactician
as a bonus feat. Note that the Beguiler does not natively have full
base attack bonus.
\end{document}

Thoughts?

EDIT 20150501 13:45: Added Suggestion at-will spell-like ability at level 5, declared all save DCs equal to the standard formula ( 10 + [L]/2 + [A] )
EDIT 20150501 13:49: Moved Suggestion to 7th level and updated LyX output

[RelentlessImp]

SLAs do not suffer ASF as they do not have somatic components. This looks like you're trying to bring 4E into 3.5 and it's kind of hideous.

[vagrant]

The whole 'has a spellbook, cannot cast spells from it' is bullshit and needs to be changed. Nix it. It's bullshit that it can learn spells but then not cast them. You just don't have enough shit to do, to be honest. Sneaky casting is also underwhelming - you're throwing around illusions, you could give less of a shit about a mob's SR. It's their save you care about, which means you want to raise your DC - and you're hampered by the serious problem of not being able to go invis until 7 fucking level, so I guess hide a lot?

[RadiantPhoenix]

SLAs do not suffer ASF as they do not have somatic components.

That sounds right.

Things are a bit jumbled because I kept wibbling on whether to make them Spells or (Sp)

This looks like you're trying to bring 4E into 3.5 and it's kind of hideous.

At-will and 1/day spell-like abilities are not something 4e invented.

I'm pretty sure that this also gets way more daily powers than 4e did. (But checking would involve actually digging out my 4e books and... reading them! *le gasp*)

The whole 'has a spellbook, cannot cast spells from it' is bullshit and needs to be changed. Nix it. It's bullshit that it can learn spells but then not cast them.

It's there for crafting, which can be used for things like Scrolls and Wands.

You just don't have enough shit to do, to be honest. Sneaky casting is also underwhelming - you're throwing around illusions, you could give less of a shit about a mob's SR. It's their save you care about, which means you want to raise your DC - and you're hampered by the serious problem of not being able to go invis until 7 fucking level, so I guess hide a lot?

You're an illusionist. Until your enemies figure out that something's up and take countermeasures, you control the vertical and the horizontal.

They don't see you, they see a wall. Until they've disbelieved, they can't see you, and are thus Unaware.

Spell Resistance (not counting Advanced Learning):

1. Undetectable Alignment (on others)
2. Sleep
3. Hypnotism
4. Charm Person
5. Hypnotic Pattern
6. Deep Slumber
7. Invisibility Sphere (on others, so your foes can't help their comrade)
8. Charm Monster
9. Seeming (On others)
10. Feeblemind
11. Dominate Person
12. Shadow Walk (on others)
13. Veil (on others)
14. Mass Charm Monster
15. Mind Blank (on others, so your enemies can't find their kidnapped buddy)
16. Demand
17. Power Word Stun
18. Dominate Monster
19. Power Word Kill

That's... about half your powers outside Advanced Learning, and most of the spells that aren't illusions.

I could probably do something about the DC, though. Perhaps make the DCs always equal 10 + [L]/2 + [A] ?

[JonSetanta]

I like the division of SLAs by usage frequency. It's not 4e, it's more like a monster in 3e.

"Sneaky Casting" is a godsend against Outsiders. Glad you put that in there.

[Draculmaulkee]

I think Suggestion is a shoe-in for this class.

EDIT: What do you envision as optimal play for this class? How does it deal with encounters featuring monsters with high will saves or immunity to mind affecting?

[RadiantPhoenix]

I think Suggestion is a shoe-in for this class.

EDIT: What do you envision as optimal play for this class? How does it deal with encounters featuring monsters with high will saves or immunity to mind affecting?

I had intended to put it somewhere, but it just sort of didn't happen.

It's a SLA that kind of wants to be "at-will" where you just say things and people do them, but I was sort of leery about giving the character another at-will win-spell. (Power Word Kill is at 20th level, so it doesn't count.)

[OgreBattle]

Beguiles fight mind immune monsters by throwing non mind immune charmed monsters at them and/or using illusions so the golem thinks there is a wall between them

[RadiantPhoenix]

I would run some SGTs, but I'm not sure that I'm very good at them:

From the wiki:

L5:

1. A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
2. A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
3. A Basilisk in its desert burrow.
4. A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
5. A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
6. A Phase Spider anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.
7. A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
8. A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
9. A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
10. A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.

L10:

1. A hallway filled with magical runes.
2. A Fire Giant on an active volcano, who hides under lava if kited.
3. A Young Blue Dragon, soaring over a seemingly endless expanse of sand dunes.
4. A Bebilith hidden on the ceiling of a cave in the abyss.
5. A Vrock in a demonic forest.
6. A tag team of Mind Flayers in a cramped underground structure.
7. An Evil Necromancer in a graveyard with extensive catacombs.
8. 6 Trolls in a small cave behind a waterfall.
9. 12 Shadows in an inn after the lights have been doused for the night.

L15:

1. A Marut in a metropolis.
2. A Hullathoin (with its army of skeletons and bloodfiend locusts).
3. A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze.
4. A Windghost in the sky.
5. A Yakfolk cleric with a party of Dao, submerged in the elemental plane of earth.
6. A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls.
7. A warparty of Cloud Giants, in the process of assaulting the party's favorite village.
8. A Mature Adult White Dragon, in its cavernous lair on the side of a mountain made entirely of ice, with an extensive series of tunnels it dug to inconvenience creatures that can't burrow or climb icy walls.
9. A Death Slaad riding a Titanic Toad.
10. A Cornugon in a cave structure with massive, 300 foot caves, who has obscured some of the connecting tunnels with illusions.
11. A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard, travelling hellish glaciers in a blizzard.
12. A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact.
13. A pair of Glabrezus, teleporting to trap the players in a 15 foot wide tunnel.
14. A harem of Succubi using a brothel as cover while they prepare to allow more demons into the material plane.
15. Twenty Dire Bears in a forest.
16. A dozen Medusa archers mounted on Hellcats pretending to be hellcat-less archaelogists in a ruined temple complex.
17. A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.
18. A pair of Beholders in a disintegrated cavern structure, filled with smooth vertical tunnels and heavy plug-shaped objects waiting to be dropped into them.

[Draculmaulkee]

At least for the Level 5 SGT, unless bypassing a challenge counts as defeating it I don't think the Beguiler performs very well. The Beguiler has no way to deal damage and take advantage of Glitterdust, Hypnotic Pattern etc, and has only one outright Save or Win (Charm Person...which doesn't even have any eligible targets in 7/10 of the encounters for the SGT.

[schpeelah]

Bypassing does count as defeating the challenge.

[vagrant]

Does bypassing an encounter give you XP? I thought only killing it did.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Minor Image lasts 2 rounds after releasing concentration, so anything shut down by that that can also be attacked at a semi-reasonable rate.

I'ma try this one:

Step one: build some expected numbers for a "generic" character:

• Race: null
• Feats: null
• Ability Scores: Assume elite array, prioritized INT, CON, DEX, CHA, WIS, STR, because that seems reasonable, then increase INT for DCs because that also seems sensible.
• Magic items: Per this, four lesser items. INT booster (on the assumption that I'm a caster), Cloak of Resistance (Saving throws are good), a magic weapon (probably a ghost touch longbow or something, because incorporeal stuff fucks up schlubs. Also, melee has... issues), and... magic armor? Seems legit. Deflection would probably be a better choice at this specific level because it's applicable to touch attacks, but... I dunno, this just seems more "natural". Assume it's a chain shirt or something. Bonuses are all +2 from level

Numbers:

• Ability Scores: 8, 13, 14, 16+2, 10, 12
• HP: 30 ((6+2) + 4 * (3.5+2))
• BAB: +2
• Initiative: +1
• Saves: +5, +7, +6
• Attack Bonus: +2 melee Masterwork Greatsword 2d6-1, +5 +1 Ghost Touch Composite Longbow 1d8+2
• AC: 17, 11 touch, 16 flat-footed
• Save DCs: 14 + bonus (17, I guess, if I'm flattening save DCs)
• Skills: 9 of them. Definitely UMD, Disable Device, Seach, Hide, and Move Silently. Unsure what are good choices for the other 4. Spellcraft, Concentration, Disguise, and Bluff seem appropriate.

Many of these feel like it comes down, in a huge way, to "do they see through Minor Image, or do I get to plink them to death on the even-numbered turns?"

1. Traps: Win: via trapfinding.
2. Huge Iron Statue: Loss: I can put up an illusory box it can't escape, but I can't hurt it.
3. Basilisk: Win: Given its animal intelligence, its odds of navigating my illusions seem... small. Can I start outside its burrow and lure it out with an Image spell while hiding, then plink it to death from 120 feet away with my bow? It saves on a 14, while I save on an 8
4. Large Fire Elemental: Loss: It's not an animal, and surely it will figure out what's up eventually? I do almost no damage to it, and it kills me pretty fast, but it only saves on a 15.
5. Manticore: Unclear: Slightly smarter, slightly more observant, slightly better save. But... I can hurt it better.
6. Phase Spider: Loss: A fellow ambush predator! There's no way I'm the one hunting it, so it gets the drop on me, and probably eats my face.
7. Centaurs: Unclear: Can I hide in the woods and plink them to death?
8. Howler/Allip: Loss?: The Howler has a good spot check and a good will save, which is bad for me. (assuming we're using Tome Illusion rules, I think it sees through me most of the time)
9. Grimlocks: WinThey definitely see through Minor Image, but I can probably nail them with Hypnotic Pattern and retreat to outside their range, then plink them to death where they can't see me.
10. Cleric and zombies: Loss I'm thinking the cleric sees through my illusion and smashes my face in.

3x win, 2x unclear, 5x loss

Not OP, but not useless either.

Suggestion is going right on into the class as an at-will ability. Level 5 seems nice and elegant.

EDIT: Wait, Suggestion isn't a 2nd level spell except for Bards.

EDIT 2:

Bypassing does count as defeating the challenge.

Oh, well in that case I think I win just about all of them. The Cleric probably gives me some trouble, though.

EDIT 3: Whoops, I forgot that I gave this class good reflex saves. Not that it makes a huge amount of difference.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Huh, it looks like I refrained from indulging in my Permanent Image fetish with this class.

On the one hand, I consider this a sign that I'm branching out, which I consider good, but on the other hand, I think that leaves this class a bit light on things to do on the nation-building and world-shaking minigames.

[radthemad4]

The whole 'has a spellbook, cannot cast spells from it' is bullshit and needs to be changed. Nix it. It's bullshit that it can learn spells but then not cast them.

It's there for crafting, which can be used for things like Scrolls and Wands.

Just let them craft stuff and activate items as if they knew all the sorc/wiz enchantment/illusion spells available to wizards of their beguiler level. Collecting spells is not worth the extra bookkeeping if they can't cast them.

[Grek]

The fuck is this character supposed to do in combat at level one? They get sleep once a day. Do they default to shooting people with crossbows for every other round of the fight?

[DSMatticus]

They spam daze (see cantrips). EDIT: In the fights where daze works, that is. Otherwise, yeah.

[JonSetanta]

The fuck is this character supposed to do in combat at level one? They get sleep once a day. Do they default to shooting people with crossbows for every other round of the fight?

In that case it needs better BAB. And maybe prioritize DEX over CON.
But I'm stating the obvious.

[RadiantPhoenix]

At level 1, the difference between bad BAB and medium BAB is zero. At level 2, the class has silent image.

That being said, perhaps I should move silent image to level 1 and up disguise self to level 2. Or maybe just the former.