[Dom4] NotYetBegunAgain - Accepting Pretenders

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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Red_Rob wrote:The main argument for graphs is so people can see if someone is building a lead. MP games often have no catch-up mechanic and rely on a consortium of weaker players taking down the leader, which can be hard to organise if people don't realise someone is pulling ahead.
Which is why people should invest in scouting and talk to their neighbours.

But graphs on also goes the other way. It allows you to quickly identify a player in a weak situation and rushing the crap out of him before he can catch-up.

It's what I observed in graph-on games so far. Anyone who shows weakness is quickly surrounded and torn apart by people trying to become the "leader".
Red_Rob wrote:
maglag wrote:But I'm fine playing in a non-wrap around map as long as it's one that's not random.
Any reason that a random map would be a no-go, assuming a few were generated and vetted first to ensure they look pretty fair?
Precisely because it would mean extra time generating and voting for maps, when there's plenty of perfectly good ones already good to go?
Last edited by maglag on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus »

maglag wrote:But graphs on also goes the other way. It allows you to quickly identify a player in a weak situation and rushing the crap out of him before he can catch-up.
Early wars are expensive, risky, and the payoffs usually aren't that great. You could have spent that gold on mages instead of soldiers. You could have spent those gems on magic items instead of battlefield spells. When the #1 players goes after the #6, #2 isn't thinking, "I might as well cut myself off a chunk of #6." They're thinking, "#1's armies are committed and he's probably taking losses. This might be the best chance I get." And even when the war is finally over, it's going to take time before your new territory actually pays off what you lost fighting. And if five people are splitting one nation six ways, those are some pretty shit spoils.

Early wars are just dangerous. The game's going to last 4-6 years, even a war against a player in a bad position is going to take about a year, and every resource you spend on that war could have been spent investing in something that would pay returns from now until the end of the game. Sure, there are situations where you might want to get involved in an early war - some nations are practically built to steamroll someone early. But mostly it costs too much and pays back too late for it to make sense. I've been invaded as the weakest player by the strongest player and cost them the game. I've won the game staying completely out of wars until the late game when I was the first to get an SC factory into overdrive.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

I'm currently in a game as MA Agartha and I got rushed by Pangaea with W9 Centaurs on turn 4. I beat them quite handily, and have actually ended up with the highest province count due to taking their territory, but I am now badly behind on mages, research and forts.

Each of the games of MP Dominions I've won have been due to having a fallow period to build up and prepare early on. Foccusing on researching important long-term spells and having the time to build up the troops you need makes you much more likely to win the eventual war.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Seems like we've played in quite different metas then, as the games I was on saw the more agressive player winning by quickly swallowing up every easy target they saw. Researching long-term spells is a luxury for after you've won your first war, and I even saw a player who had turtled to rush up a Arcane Nexus that remained up for around half the game still losing to an agressive Pangaea player who had rushed another player early game to build up so much inertia he never stopped.

The only exception to that I saw was a very cunning Lanka player who manipulated basically everybody else in wasting each other while he calmly built up his blood slave factory.

But I guess that's one of the reasons I applied to this game, to see how I do in a different meta.

(of course, don't start early wars you're not confident you can finish quickly. If you think you're gonna need over a year to destroy somebody else, either find a softer target, or secure some allies to speed it up.)
Last edited by maglag on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
name_here
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Post by name_here »

In our Den games we've found that getting into early wars frequently ends badly for both sides. Dom4 made capital forts much sturdier.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Correct on stronger forts, however there's some points to support rush:
-Gold matters more as there's no more gem-gens and SCs were nerfed all around, while Growth scales got buffed, so O3 G3 builds that pump out lots of gold is pretty viable.
-On the other hand, most super-casters are now slow to recruit, so it's harder to burn said gold in magic users. You could burn said gold on forts but...
-Forts take longer to build. So capturing enemy forts is more valuable as it saves you the time needed to build one of your own. Caps even more so because plenty of gold and assured gems.

So if you plan for it, it's quite possible to amass a force that can quickly tear down even an enemy's cap early game.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

So, maps. So far the parameters are no wrap-around, no random map and nothing hand painted with around 100 provinces. From the base game I get the following:

[*]Aran
[*]Parganos
[*]Shadowshore
[*]Valanis

Alternatively we have:

[*]Tyrande
[*]The Scroll
[*]Leaking Land (Horizontal wrap only)

Anyone have a preference?
Last edited by Red_Rob on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

The Scroll and Tyrande look both quite nice to me.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I vote Tyrande.
Ikeren
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Post by Ikeren »

Tyrande is fine by me. I prefer no graphs as well.
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Post by Red_Rob »

I'm good for Tyrande, so does that mean we are good to go?
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Almost. Here are the nation assignments and settings, speak up if you object to anything.

Avoraciopoctules: Ragha, Xibalba, Caelum.
K: Patala, Ulm, C'tis.
maglag: Marignon, Man, Xibalba.
Ikeren: Gath
Red_Rob: Midgard, Mictlan, Abysia.
angelfromanotherpin: Tien Chi, Agartha, Arcoscephale.
name_here: Ragha, Atlantis, Rl'yeh.

Graphs: Off
Hall of Fame: 15
Story Events: Off
Artifacts: Limited
Thrones: 8x1, 3x2, 7 pts to win
Mods: None
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

The only other thing I would like to suggest is to allow us to rename commanders, since by default that's turned off.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Oh, I always turn that on for MP. I rarely use it myself, but I know other people get use out of it.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

I suggested 8 points to win, as only 50% can make it a little easy to go for a Throne Grab without interacting with enough of the map.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I don't think there's much in it, and I like to leave a little leeway in case of placement issues, like if a 2 winds up in some absurdly inaccessible location.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

Fairy nuff.

K changed his first choice to Patala, might want to amend that.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I'm going to bed now, I'll start the game in the morning if nobody's raised any objections.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

No objections here :D
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Game is now accepting pretenders. Good luck all (but not too good).
Ikeren
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Post by Ikeren »

Sorry, the stale in the other game made me realize I don't have time for this, as much as I'd like to. I'm dropping out.
Last edited by Ikeren on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Sorry, it looks like I'm going to be seriously busy for the next 7-10 days. I don't have time for the pace of a new dom4 game right now, you should start without me.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

So with Avor and Ikeren bowing out we have the 5 Pretenders I believe? Unless we want to see if anyone else fancies taking their place?
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I think the map is still fine for five. I'll get the party started.

edit: ...aaand my turn file is crashing my game. Last time, I was a patch behind. No idea what it could be this time.
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
K
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Post by K »

[quote="angelfromanotherpin"]I think the map is still fine for five. I'll get the party started.

edit: ...aaand my turn file is crashing my game. Last time, I was a patch behind. No idea what it could be this time.[/quote

I'm getting a "bad neighbor" error. I think the game itself is borked.
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