So what good can we take from D&D 5th edition?

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:32 pm

As said in this thread, the good parts of 5e were created by Frank and K years ago (backgrounds, feats being more powerful, learning "skills" without tying to levels).

5e has at least one original good part, it being the fact that's not 4e.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:35 pm

Wouldn't Frank and K's stuff also have that advantage?

JigokuBosatsu · Post by **JigokuBosatsu** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:05 pm

Yeah, but the Tomes don't have random 1e stuff copy-pasted in.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:29 pm

Ah. That is true.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:54 pm

JigokuBosatsu wrote:Yeah, but the Tomes don't have random 1e stuff copy-pasted in.

FrankTrollman wrote:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions
"The old ways are the best ways. Magic in the past was capable of things you can't even comprehend."

Empires have risen and fallen many times in history, and each time new magics are discovered and old magics are lost. The Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions is a user of magic who is convinced that the way magic was used in the past is better in some important fashion. Whether they are correct or not is something that the Mages of the Arcane Order would probably be willing to argue for days or weeks. But it is undeniable that much of the magic used by the Seeker are beyond the comprehension of those who have not taken the time to explore its ancient ways.

Previous generations have largely picked the surface clean of ancient magic power, and now those who wish to find the remnants of the ancient civilizations must journey deeper and deeper beneath the earth to find items that are protected from scrying.

Prerequisites:
Skills: Spellcraft 9 ranks; Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 9 ranks
Spellcasting: Must be able to prepare arcane spells of at least 2nd level.
Race: Human, Elf, or Gnome
Special: Must not be specialized in a school of magic other than Illusion.

Hit Die: d4
Class Skills: The Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions' class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)).
Skills/Level: 2 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Medium (1/2), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Spell Reflection, Scroll Preparation, +1 Spellcasting Level
2 Uncapped Magic, +1 Spellcasting Level
3 Burst Conservancy, +1 Spellcasting Level
4 Harvest Magic, +1 Spellcasting Level
5 Expanse of the Sky, +1 Spellcasting Level
6 Temporary Portal, +1 Spellcasting Level
7 Unbreachable Stone Defense, +1 Spellcasting Level

All of the following are Class Features of the Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions gains no proficiency with any weapons or armor. However, a Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions is considered proficient with any magic sword he holds.

Spellcasting: Every level, the Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions casts spells (including gaining any new spell slots and spell knowledge) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he had previous to gaining that level.

Spell Reflection (Su): A Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions may reflect spells with a line area of effect off of walls. The spell may either bounce off at an appropriate angle (angle of incidence equals angle of refraction) or straight back towards the caster at his whim. Creatures whose spaces are entered twice by a bouncing spell effect are affected twice.

Scroll Preparation: A Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions may prepare his daily spells from any magical writing that he has deciphered without harming himself or the magical writing. Many Seekers take magical scrolls and bind them together into book form because magical scrolls take up less room in a book than do normal pages of spell formulae.

Uncapped Magic: At 2nd level, spells cast by a Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions do not have maximum level-dependent effects.

Burst Conservancy (Su): At 3rd level, the spells cast by a Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions attempt to fill all available space. Every square that a spell with a burst area of effect is prevented from occupying because of a wall or similar obstruction is added to the other side of the effect's area. For example, a fireball takes up 44 squares when used without obstructions. When used in a long, 10' wide hallway by a Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions, the fireball would extend to be 110' long.

Harvest Magic (Ex): A 4th level Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions can cut pieces out of recently killed monsters that are useful in item creation. An Aberration, Dragon, Magical Beast, Ooze, or Outsider that has been successfully identified with the appropriate knowledge skill by the Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions and killed within the last hour can have one of its organs harvested by the Seeker in a 10 minute procedure that preserves some of the magical power of the creature. The magical portions of such a creature are worth 50 gp and 2 XP towards item creation per CR of the monster.

Expanse of the Sky (Su): At 5th level, a Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions may double the ranges and areas of his spell effects when he is outdoors. As long as the Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions has an open sky over his head, every 10' cube in a spell description is a 20' cube, every 30' cone is a 60' cone, and so on and so on. Essentially, all of his spells benefit from Widen and Enlarge Spell

Temporary Portal (Su): When a 6th level Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions casts a [Teleportation] spell that would normally change his own location, he can create a portal from the target location to a location adjacent to himself instead of moving himself. This portal can be seen through and line of effect for spells can be drawn through it. The Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions may dismiss the portal at any time as a free action, and it otherwise lasts 1 round per caster level of the Seeker.

Unbreachable Stone Defense (Su): When a 7th level Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions benefits from the spell stone skin, his damage reduction is increased to Unlimited/Adamantine. The hit point reserve of the stone skin is still only reduced by a maximum of 10 points per attack.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:54 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: Honestly, the things I would take from 5E are things that I already wrote into free 3e supplements 10 years ago. That's not hipsterism, it's public record.

While that is true, sorry to say Frank, but I sincerely doubt they had your work in mind. Considering 4th edition existed, made backgrounds & themes, they're probably more modeled after that, than your/K's work (maybe D20 Modern?). As I've said before, I doubt they even remember the [tomes], if they knew them at all. So you're going to have to indicate proof that they likely ripped it from you, else "hipsterism" may be more accurate.

EDIT: Oh!, and the good I guess we can take, is that with the game dripping so heavily in peasant fantasy, the backgrounds actually look more fun to play than the actual classes (Invisible furries w/Skeleton hordes aside). Also that, it "seems" to be bringing in new people into the hobby.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:44 pm

Aryxbez, you seem to be kind of an idiot, but perhaps you neglected to read the title of this thread. This thread is about acknowledging that 5e as a whole is basically an underdeveloped piece of crap, but then considering what good ideas could be stolen from it to make other games.

And it is simply a fact that I personally already wrote a book where all the ideas I consider good in 5th edition were presented as 3rd edition rules. And I wrote and released that book nearly a decade before 5e was a thing.

So on the topic of the thread, I basically can't rip off 5e in the way this thread was made for discussing. If I were to be writing in backgrounds or intra-level proficiency gains I would by definition not be ripping off 5e, I would be repeating myself. Whether any of my ideas ended up getting copied or used as inspiration by the people who wrote 5e is something I don't know and also don't care. They are, obviously, free to do so if that's what they want to do and my only goal in releasing those things was to make D&D better for as many people as possible. But the thread is about what we can steal from 5e. And for me, the answer is literally "nothing" because I have squatters rights on every single good idea in the entire edition.

That's not bragging or exaggeration. 5e really isn't very good and presents very few new ideas. And I personally have written a lot of ideas for D&D, and all of the good ideas I can find in 5e happen to be the same as things I already wrote and released to the public for free.

-Username17

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:18 pm

I doubt that even denners are arrogant enough to really try claiming that minor bonuses attached to character backgrounds is a particularly new or innovative idea. It's nice to see such things discussed openly in an official edition, but if I were to seriously to suggest that my MC was the most innovative MC ever on the grounds that he gave me secret class features related to my Dúnedain heritage I doubt people would even bother to respond with a derisive "Cool story, bro."

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:05 am

In AD&D, you can get Secondary Skills, like Sailor or Hunter. They're your background from before you took your class, and they let you MTP your way through as much the the DM allows, like most of that edition outside combat. Also alignment and class tied you into various guild-like organisations for training and such.

With UA and OA, you get to roll up whole family lines, pre-existing rivalries, clan stuff, social status, responsibilities, and pick NWPs to suit. Background taking up half your character sheet and influencing character development quite heavily.

By 2nd edition, you're supposed to figure it all out yourself, because rolling dice for your background story would be stifling (but rolling 3d6 in order for stats when the penalties start at 8- and the bonuses start at 15+ will make you a Real Roleplayer).

Kits then padded out the 2e splatbooks to formalise that, and they are your background. You get bonus stuff for being an ex-pirate or former gladiator or ex-military or whatever, and in addition to bonus proficiencies, some of the bonuses are things like getting free room and board, or +3 chatting to similar folks.

3e dropped it all for feats and skills, you don't start with a story unless you do it all yourself, you mostly grow into one based around your adventuring, and then the DM uses it to build you a custom Prestige Class (except not, no one did that).

4e is trolling. You're walking down the road when suddenly Kobolds.

The 5e backgrounds are very much like 2e kits, except not tied to class so they take up less room. Better balanced because they do so little for you, but you still MTP your way through the story parts of them and hunt around for the best bonuses to match your other options.

We haven't had official sub-1st-level background stuff anything like core for 15 years, but it's not new at all. The game's 40 years old, and it's often had background material.

--

Real innovations are

[*] the Advantage/Disadvantage 2-dice system, it's quite different to 4e's player-triggered rerolls.
[*] the cap on class/level bonus growth to 4 points. That's a huge change. Even OD&D had +12 progression on attacks and +8 on saves, and that was quickly improved.
[*] using mechanised Lair effects, arbitrary themed sets of hostile environment rules (and bonus actions) tied to various monsters, rather than tucked in the DMG where you forget them.
[*] I think it might be the first time the rules actually tell you to not use the rules. The tradition is to tell DM's to change the rules, add and subtract them, not ignore them on a whim. Hugely disempowering.

Eikre · Post by **Eikre** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:01 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions

Can someone explain the precedent for the "Expanse of the Sky" feature, by the way? Always wondered where the joke is in that one.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:14 pm

Eikre wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Seeker of the Lost Wizard Traditions
Can someone explain the precedent for the "Expanse of the Sky" feature, by the way? Always wondered where the joke is in that one.

In AD&D, ranges, areas, and movement rates were expressed in table inches. Indoors (and in dungeons), a table inch was one amount, and outside it was another. 6 feet and 10 feet if I recall correctly, which I probably don't.

So if you cast a fireball in a dungeon or in the woods it would take up the same space on the battlemat. But the in-world size of the explosion would be significantly larger if cast in the woods.

-Username17

talozin · Post by **talozin** » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:48 pm

One indoor inch is 10 feet, one outdoor inch is 10 yards.

Edit: there's actually a note in the book somewhere that this range expansion is only supposed to count for *range*, not for area of effect, but like many things in AD&D this appears nowhere that it's easy to find and, of course, it also makes measuring spell effects outdoors a massive pain in the ass.