Racism

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Prak
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Racism

Post by Prak »

Chamomile wrote:
Pixels wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
No, actually, it isn't. If you can prove that you're being paid less for no other reason than that you are a woman, you can sue for that. Trouble is, how are you supposed to prove that? Also: Sexism, not racism.
Yes, actually, it is, with a few exceptions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment ... ted_States. Your example of discrimination based on sex is a protected category, but paying people who have annoying laughs less would be perfectly fine.
Okay, so technically you're correct, but Prak is clearly referring here to women, who are a protected class.
Prak wrote:Also, I was talking about the use of [x]ism to mean "Institutionalized [X]ism," in general, not specifically racism.
I'm specifically using racism to point out that by the Tumblr definition there is no racism in America, a clearly ridiculous assertion which therefore invalidates the Tumblr definition.
If you want, and give me a bit, I can come up with other cases where Castle Doctrine type laws only protect white men.
I don't need you to come up with cases where the Castle Doctrine effectively only protects white people, Prak. I need you come up with cases where the Castle Doctrine explicitly only protects white people. If there is no actual law or legal precedent, meaning the actual explicit word of a judge on a case and not just what we can infer about why he ruled the way he did, then there is no racism in United States law itself. There is only racism in the people who enforce United States law, and who ignore the law in subtle or in some cases blatant ways to serve their repugnant ideologies. But that still has nothing to do with what is actually the law, because the law is what's written, not what's done. Except the Tumblr definition of racism says that it doesn't count as racism unless it is a system of oppression in law and attitude which means that only explicit legal oppression of certain races qualifies as racism. And that is stupid.
Ok, so, continuing this thing without derailing Images again.

I recognized that I had incorrectly summed up the tumblr social justice proponents' definition of racism, but lacked any real way to find a bit better summation.

Fortunately, I stumbled upon one tonight (because white supremacists are bawing about black people having a "selfie for black pride" day)-
dimensionaal wrote:Racism is a systemic form of oppression that benefits the dominant class. This is why you can’t be racist towards white people in America - because they benefit from this system. You can be discriminatory towards white people, but if you think this blackout event, which celebrates black beauty, is discriminatory towards white people, you’re wrong.
So, I incorrectly included law in the matter, when I meant systemic. The point is that racism is institutionalized in America to the point where you don't even have to be the kind of person who believes in the superiority of Caucasians to benefit from, or even hold racist beliefs or attitudes. The deck is stacked against non-whites in America, simply being white means that you are less disadvantaged than someone who is not, and it doesn't really require the president to be racist himself, it just requires that it be possible for racist people to hold any amount of power.
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Post by darkmaster »

So, I have no idea what this event you're talking about is but if Tumblr is involved it's probably full of horse shit on all sides.

But that definition of racism is absolutely horse shit no probably. "You can't do anything about it; if you're white that means your guilty shitlord and nothing you can do or don't do can ever change that." But even ignoring how fucking awful people who believe shit like that are the whole idea is flawed because it's based upon a massive misapplication of idea of privilege.

Privilege, in this context, has a place in academic thought; the idea is really good as a thought experiment. It can help you understand different positions, imagine what it might be like to live in a place where, say, you don't have the privilege of having drinking water that probably won't give you dysentery and kill you. But the concept falls apart when you try to apply it to the real world because it disregards people’s circumstances in their life.

Of course the fact that this idea is wrongbad is almost unilaterally ignored because the people who trot it out either don’t actually know what they’re talking about or are just extremely dishonest and want to purposefully misuse the idea to further their own agenda.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Now I have about zero interest or knowledge in what is or isn't on Tumblr, let alone any interest in defending any of it.

But... basically anyone who starts out a post obsessing about the evils of Tumblr and ever says something remotely like this...
darkmaster wrote:So, I have no idea what this event you're talking about is but if Tumblr is involved it's probably full of horse shit on all sides.
... almost uniformly isn't worth reading beyond that point.

I don't know why, it's just a pattern I've observed, people who open with venomously decrying the sheer evils of Tumblr, a force I'd have to say I barely even notice exists, just tend to be complete asses talking about ass.

My theory is that there is some self awareness from asses who obsess about Tumblr and they feel that the need to lash out at some group they perceive to be commonly regarded as bigger asses as an attempt to make their assness seem less assey for the remainder of their frequently just flat out incoherent opinion screeds.

edit: In fact you can extend this phenomena to other apparently annoying places on the internet that the hated other of whatever form gathers. Like say Upworthy. Or even Redit.

It's like the internet equivalent of starting out your statement with "I'm not racist, buuuuuuut..."
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by darkmaster »

Oh, yes, reasonable argument, "I disagree with what you said so I'm going to say that you're just incapable of being reasonable and ignore you." Thank you for showing me that you have nothing to contribute to the conversation PL. At least you were up front about it. Enjoy my ignore list.
Last edited by darkmaster on Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

darkmaster wrote:Enjoy my ignore list.
That HAS to be a new record for thin skin on the internet.
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Post by DSMatticus »

The Death Angels were real people. They ran around San Francisco murdering white people for being white. If you want to redefine the word racism such that the Death Angels were not committing racist murders but instead "ethnically-motivated homicides," you're missing the fucking point. It's not the label that makes racism terrible, it's the part where you're doing something awful to someone based on their ethnicity. If you redefine racism to exclude murdering white people for being white, it's still exactly as reprehensible to murder white people for being white. If I name my puppy Racism, it's still just a fucking puppy. The only thing you can accomplish by fighting a battle to redefine racism to exclude murdering white people for being white is to shit all over your own cause by being a flesh and blood strawman. Instead, just make the obvious fucking observation that as the dominant ethnic group, white people experience so little fucking racism it doesn't matter and is in no way a pressing social issue.

@PL, you are a dumbass and he was right to put you on ignore. Yes, conservative shitstains love to talk about tumblr. That is because tumblr has a highly-visible community of idiots whose beliefs are so fucking stupid they are indistinguishable from the strawmen that anti-egalitarians have been using to try and convince us to put women back in the kitchen and keep minorities in the ghetto for my entire life. And that is exactly why, as an egalitarian, you should find this community incredibly fucking uncomfortable. Because they are championing causes you support so shittily that they are actually hurting them.
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Post by Chamomile »

So, the new definition is at least consistent with reality, in that using this definition you can say "America has a problem with racism" and be right. What it is not consistent with is common use, so the question raised is whether or not this redefinition is helpful. Well, if you try to redefine this word than anytime someone brings up racism against whites or sexism against men or whatever, instead of just saying "okay, yes, that happens but we're talking about a separate issue right now" and making them look like jackasses if they insist on making the conversation about their tangentially related problems even though the actual reason for having the conversation was to talk about other problems completely, you are now getting into a conversation in which you make yourself sound like you're trying to justify acts of racial violence against helpless bystanders because those bystanders were white and it's okay when white people are murdered. You sound like this because you are defending a definition created by people who actually do believe that. If you're fighting for the recognition of a definition that loses you the moral high ground to a white supremacist, maybe consider if perhaps you should find a different hill to die on.
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Post by Shrapnel »

I've always understood racism to basically mean "discriminating against someone's race", regardless of whether said race is black, white, red, yellow, or purple and green.
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Post by MfA »

Shrapnel, almost everyone does. Some people just speak an entirely different language, I think trying to find any consistency about this on Tumblr is a fools errand though. It's just sophistry.
Last edited by MfA on Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vnonymous »

Prak, your definition of racism is fucking stupid and if you actually believe that you're a fucking moron.

What you're describing is original sin, not fucking racism.

When the KKK lynches people for being black, that's racism. Your moronic definition agrees with reality here.

When the ANC chants "Kill the boer", that's racism (but not under your definition!).

When Israel sterilizes black people without telling them, that's actually racist (and under your definition it isn't, because jews are an oppressed people).
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Post by DSMatticus »

This bit is continuing another conversation in another thread where AFAIK Prak was just explaining that people exist who define racism this way, not that he is among them.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

'Racism' has a pretty straightforward English meaning. It is NOT the one referenced in the OP.
Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
It is, specifically, a subtype of bigotry that concerns itself with race/ethnicity, rather than politics or religion or any of the various other concepts humans use to divide themselves into factions.

Believing that, as a group, races possess different characteristics - even ones that can be considered inferior or superior - isn't racism. Nor is noting that a particular individual has traits characteristic of their race. It has nothing to do with 'dominance', and in my experience members of 'oppressed' groups are much more likely to be openly bigoted, racially or otherwise.
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Post by Prak »

Yeah, I don't necessarily subscribe to this definition of racism. On tumblr, I understand they mean institutionalized racism and don't argue because there are a lot of people that are otherwise very cool and intelligent and I don't want to get on their shit lists when all that's going on is a form of language evolution.

Outside of tumblr, I really don't bother splitting hairs like that.
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Post by DSMatticus »

They do not actually mean "institutionalized racism." They mean "racism against the people who aren't running the show." For example, it was true for a long time that men had pretty shit odds in custody battles (and now that is less true or even reversed in some places). That's institutional sexism, but it is not tumblr sexism, because men run the show. According to this part of tumblr, that would just be... "arbitrary preferential treatment given to one sex by a particular social institution." And if that sounds exactly like sexism to you, well... welcome to tumblr; you're going to find a bunch of well-meaning idiots doing stupid and unnecessary things. And really hilarious fanfiction crossovers. And porn. But this is the internet, so I guess that's a given.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

'Evolution'? It's a conscious attempt to poison the well through Orwellian language.

Those 'cool and intelligent' people are trying to infect you.
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Post by Prak »

Thank you for reminding me why I have you on ignore..
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

I am honored. To judge someone, look at their enemies.
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Post by darkmaster »

Chamomile wrote: "okay, yes, that happens but we're talking about a separate issue right now" and making them look like jackasses if they insist on making the conversation about their tangentially related problems even though the actual reason for having the conversation was to talk about other problems completely
I can't agree with this. Do you think this is okay? do you actually believe that this is the right or even a feasible way to achieve your goals? "You make a good point, but I don't care I: don't want to hear it so get out.” This kind of thing is utter bullshit, this, right here, is exactly how we end up with communities like Tumblr. Places that devolve into twisted parodies of their own position. It’s exactly why I blocked PL for their first post in this thread. Let’s get this straight, I don’t hate Tumblr because the people there are fucking idiots and I disagree with them, I hate Tumblr because it’s an echo chamber. In fact, it’s a series of echo chambers contained within one big meta-echo chamber and at the end of the day an echo chamber is worthless. If all you can hear is you’re voice shouting back at you then how is your voice supposed to reach anyone else? If you purposefully push people out of a conversation and make it clear they’re not welcome how are you supposed to win friends?

This is the other reason this kind of idea is so unhealthy, it’s deeply polarizing, and as our world becomes more and more interconnected and egalitarian, that kind of behavior becomes more and more distasteful to people at large. Look at feminism, look at social justice. These are things that are built upon ideas that no one can possible say are bad and not look like a shit head, and yet in recent surveys a majority of people say they don’t identify as feminist and a growing minority consider the term to be an insult. Social justice is more and more becoming a punchline on the internet. Why? Well, because feminism and social justice have a tendency to try and shut people out, to say “no, we don’t want your opinions or thoughts, we don’t care about your problems.” And that alienates people, not just the people who you’re telling aren’t welcome, but also the people who are on the fence and even people who agree with you but aren’t part of the group.

If anyone isn’t welcome, then you might as well say no one is welcome, because unless someone is already part of the group it will probably make them leery of joining up. Because no one wants to be treated like that, and even if it’s not directed at them, they probably won’t be comfortable associating themselves with you, because it makes them look bad, and also because most people realize how terrible that kind of behavior is. It makes them uncomfortable and unwilling to open up to you.

It’s like, look at 4chan. 4chan and Tumblr are both jokes, they’re both considered places where shitty, stupid, terrible people congregate. But the difference is that, by and large, 4chaners are in on the gag. Very few people on 4chan actually take what goes on on 4chan seriously, are there a few chuckleheads that actually think it’s serious business tm? Probably yeah, but if you look at how channers talk about the board most of them are taking the piss out of it themselves: a sort of “tee hee internet H8 machine lolololololololol.” People on 4chan don’t use the word [EDITED] as a suffix for every group imaginable because they want to insult homosexuals, they do it because LUL INTERNETZ. And as a result, 4chan is far more inclusive than Tumblr ever could be. Because on Tumblr they’ll hate you for expressing an idea they disagree with and will actively chase you out, on 4chan they hate you because that’s the joke. Maybe you’ll decide can’t take it and go, maybe you’ll get banned (usually for doing something illegal or posting content in the wrong section), but no one was targeting you in particular, no one said “I disagree with that person they must be driven from the community.” That didn’t happen because no one fucking cares about you.

Both are bad, toxic, places, but one is an egalitarian nightmare where everyone is equally free to get shit on and if you don’t like it fucking leave then no one has a gun to your head. While the other is a place where even people who are ostensibly “in” are too afraid to express what they actually think for fear of being driven out.

To draw a similar line between two less famous and entirely less toxic environments. I frequent another forum, I won’t name it because I’m not a shill, but it’s a very caring community, for the most part everyone supports each other and does their best to help the site succeed. Compared to here where the atmosphere is a lot tenser and people argue a lot. But here I feel more comfortable saying whatever I believe. It’s not that people on the other site discourage discourse, or drive out people with dissenting opinions, but there’s always the idea in the back of my mind that something I said might be taken the wrong way and spoil some of the relationships I have there even get me banned if things get too out of hand. In a lot of ways the more adversarial unregulated tone of this site is liberating, it allows the discourse to flow more freely and without worry. Neither takes things too far in either direction so both sites are ones that I value and cherish.

@ Occluded Sun: You’re a fucking idiot you literally, literally, quoted a definition for racism that disagreed with the assertions you made of what racism is. Please think before you type next time.

@Prak: You say you’re afraid to express your opinion because you’re afraid of being ostracized. But the fact is, if you’re afraid to speak your mind, you’re already being ostracized. I want you to think about this, if you’re afraid to speak openly with someone, are they really your friend? Are they the kind of person you even want to be friends with?
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

darkmaster wrote:Look at feminism, look at social justice. These are things that are built upon ideas that no one can possible say are bad and not look like a shit head
Not everyone uses those terms in the same way. I'd enthusiastically support making a just society, but 'social justice' is an idiom that's other than the sum of its parts. I generally disagree strongly with the positions held by the sort of person who uses that phrase a lot.

[edited to add] My examples are quite in harmony with the definition I quoted. Whatever you're smoking, get some that isn't covered in insecticide next time.
Last edited by Occluded Sun on Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by darkmaster »

I'm just going to ignore the first part of what you said, because it was stupid, and didn't make any sense. But as for the second part you fucking shit head.
Occluded Sun wrote:'Racism' has a pretty straightforward English meaning. It is NOT the one referenced in the OP.
Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
It is, specifically, a subtype of bigotry that concerns itself with race/ethnicity, rather than politics or religion or any of the various other concepts humans use to divide themselves into factions.

Believing that, as a group, races possess different characteristics - even ones that can be considered inferior or superior - isn't racism. Nor is noting that a particular individual has traits characteristic of their race. It has nothing to do with 'dominance', and in my experience members of 'oppressed' groups are much more likely to be openly bigoted, racially or otherwise.
I'm going to give you some advice, before you post something, pause, walk away from it for oh, 'bout half an hour, then come back and read what you wrote aloud and think, really think, about what the words you put down mean. This pratice will make you far more popular around her.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Seriously? You don't understand the difference between "all members of a group" and "the group"?

That's just pathetic.

Not all women are shorter than all men. Yet women are shorter than men. This is basic English.
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Post by darkmaster »

What difference? There is litterally no way to say those words and have them make sense. You realize that saying "the group" is a shorthand way to discribe a whole group of people. It is a verbal short cut that we use to identify ourselves or others as a collective. So no OS, you cannot actually differentiate between "all people who are members of a group" and "the group" as a whole because those are two different ways to say the exact same thing.
Kaelik wrote:
darkmaster wrote:Tgdmb.moe, like the gaming den, but we all yell at eachother about wich lucky star character is the cutest.
Fuck you Haruhi is clearly the best moe anime, and we will argue about how Haruhi and Nagato are OP and um... that girl with blond hair? is for shitters.

If you like Lucky Star then I will explain in great detail why Lucky Star is the a shitty shitty anime for shitty shitty people, and how the characters have no interesting abilities at all, and everything is poorly designed especially the skill challenges.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

No, one refers to the elements that we group together in a category, and one refers to the concept of that category itself.

Just as you can say "horses run faster than humans" without having to explicitly note the exceptional lamed horses that can only hobble. 'Horses' refers to the generic class. If I wanted to make it universal, and explicitly applicable to each and every entity the label could be applied to, I'd have to say "all horses run faster than humans", and then a single counter-example would prove the statement wrong.

Maybe you're not smoking something. Maybe you're just snorting the insecticide straight.
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Post by Prak »

I didn't say I was afraid to speak my mind, I said I don't worry about it, because people generally understand what's being talked about and it's a pointless argument that creates tension between me and people who make damned good points even if their choice of words is peculiar from an outside perspective.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Dean »

Seriously? You don't understand the difference between "all members of a group" and "the group"?

That's just pathetic.

Not all women are shorter than all men. Yet women are shorter than men. This is basic English.
But that's not true for races, because while "Women" has an extremely functional definition "Race" does not so trying to say anything biologically derivative of "Race" is shared by that "Race" is begging the question twice in a row. Someone's "Race" can't tell you anything about a person or group because "Race" is a nonfunctional categorization of humans.

It should be covered that racism can exist even if "Races" aren't a viable category and can be a problem for the same reason it would be a problem if everyone agreed to discriminate against Libra's. But just because everyone could create social institutions that unfairly target Libra's doesn't mean you can then make biological generalizations about Libra's as if they hold any validity*

*Technically you could make one biological generalization about Libra's, so it's actually a better metric
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