The Gaming Den

Koumei wrote: France being occupied by basically everyone at some point or another and laying claim to varying amounts of now-foreign territory and now consisting of what were at some point different tiny nations and having a whole swath of different types of rule... doesn't change the fact that France is older than old.

The first physical traces of a French national spirit dates back to 978, when Lothaire beat back the troops of Otton II. The French territory wasn't exactly the same back then, and some large parts were still disputed in the 20th century, but many historians agree on the fact that the concept of a "French" identity probably appeared at the end of the 10th century (even though it wasn't in the concept of a Nation-State).

Starmaker wrote:

tussock wrote:I'm not even going to go over all the problems Russia has as a country right now, because I'd be here all day, but one problem they do not have at all is being Nazis or sympathising with Nazis or using Nazi rhetoric. That's completely crazy shit you're talking there, man. But you're going to double down on it some more because that's obviously the Estonian zeitgeist right now.

So, what seems to be the Russian Hell's Angels are Nazi now? Because when I see dudes sporting Lenni 'stashes, long hair and black leather, what comes to my mind is not "fascism", but "hard rock". Its hard to look to that picture and not to imagine a row of bitching Harleys just out of frame.

sandmann wrote:That is one of the reasons why germans and french live in peace while israelis and palestinians bomb the shit out of each other

The people of the Gaza Strip are not just bitter about an ancient crime (though many are also probably that), they are victims of a modern and ongoing humanitarian crisis perpetuated by Israel. Between the bombings and the blockades, there is no industry left inside the Gaza Strip. They are dependent on humanitarian aid from Israel to avoid mass starvation, and Israel is constantly slimming that aid down relative to the needs of the population. And if you tried to leave to some place where there is an economy in which you could provide services for food and you could live an ordinary, productive life, you would be shot. Because free travel is allowed on zero of your borders.

The Gaza Strip is an autonomous concentration camp whose walls are manned by Israeli soldiers. Violent unrest against Israel is wholly justified (though fruitless and counterproductive) by events that are ongoing, and the real tragedy there is that Israel has enough military power that it will never be forced to compromise, stop doing what it's doing, and help rebuild the communities they've destroyed. Instead, every few years Israeli politicians stand at podiums and bang their fists about the ever-present danger of terrorism from all those people whose lives they are destroying. What's their solution? Keep destroying their lives, of course.

It's wholly different from any hypothetical animosity between France and Germany or Georgia or South Ossetia. Those conflicts actually are over, but Israel is still shitting on Palestinians today.

nockermensch wrote: Its hard to look to that picture and not to imagine a row of bitching Harleys just out of frame.

Oh God. I had the motorcycle gang idea so deep in my mind it was actually distorting the picture. I seriously somehow saw the middle guy as bracing himself on a bike until you said that.

nockermensch wrote:So, what seems to be the Russian Hell's Angels are Nazi now? Because when I see dudes sporting Lenni 'stashes, long hair and black leather, what comes to my mind is not "fascism", but "hard rock". Its hard to look to that picture and not to imagine a row of bitching Harleys just out of frame.

They're not Hell's Angels, Jebus forfend. They're the Night Wolves, who happen to be a neo-Nazi ultra-Orthodox-Christian (Westboro / Uganda preacher level of crazy) motorcycle gang sponsored by the government and sticking their fingers into youth army prep, "patriotic education" and holy shit immigration programs. Does the Volunteer Society for Cooperation with the Army, Aviation, and Fleet headed by ultranationalist conservatives calling for, among other things, the physical extermination of the opposition, sound even remotely okay?

Starmaker wrote:

nockermensch wrote:So, what seems to be the Russian Hell's Angels are Nazi now? Because when I see dudes sporting Lenni 'stashes, long hair and black leather, what comes to my mind is not "fascism", but "hard rock". Its hard to look to that picture and not to imagine a row of bitching Harleys just out of frame.

They're not Hell's Angels, Jebus forfend. They're the Night Wolves, who happen to be a neo-Nazi ultra-Orthodox-Christian (Westboro / Uganda preacher level of crazy) motorcycle gang sponsored by the government and sticking their fingers into youth army prep, "patriotic education" and holy shit immigration programs. Does the Volunteer Society for Cooperation with the Army, Aviation, and Fleet headed by ultranationalist conservatives calling for, among other things, the physical extermination of the opposition, sound even remotely okay?

1) Can you actually give some examples of Night Wolves speaking in a nazist way, or supporting it with actions? The question is genuine - my knowledge of them is limited to "bikers who hanged out with Putin once", and attempts to search for nationalizm lead to their anti-maidan actions.

2) DOSAAF is involved in immigration programs and is headed by ultranationalists?

@Starmaker, I have no doubt your bike gang is some bad people. They basically all are, everywhere, to some extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_in_New_Zealand

That's ours, the cops are always trying to set them up because they casually deal drugs, and at various times they've been closely linked with senior politicians and various state-run community schemes, including youth training and community policing. Meanwhile my local paper celebrates the 40th annual motorcycle rally, which is just a get-together for the local gang but it's a bit of fun and they spend real money so no one says that.

The ones here using the most Nazi imagery are the Mongrel Mob, who are also the ones most tightly linked to various politicians over the years. In the early 70's their initiations involved gang rape and murder, but now they don't, and they're mostly legit taxpayers who probably also know a lot of people who sell pot. They arose from the Maori battalion, who liked Nazi helmets and knives because they had them as souvenirs from all the wermacht boys they killed in WWII.


But we also have actual Nazis, who prattle on about the Jews and the looming race war and the thinning of the herd to lead to a new society of super-white-men, and they're totally into having arms caches hidden in the bush and stuff. While their younger skinhead bretheren do sometimes trash local Jewish cemeteries and even murder Asians in the street for no reason at all. Politicians here run a mile from that lot, because it's pretty obvious what they are. There's an important difference between bad people who sometimes look a bit like Nazis, and people who are Nazis.