The Gaming Den

This thread started talking about how useful level 1 Wizards would be to an army, so I thought maybe we should discuss optimal army design, strategy, and tactics in D&D land.

Things I know of:

• 1st level Illusionists can cast Silent Image twice per day, thrice if they're clever. Two 10ft cubes, range of 440ft, lasting as long as you concentrate. The possibilities are limited only by your imagination.
• Skeleton cavalry moves about 640 miles per day, skeleton infantry 320, zombie cavalry 160, and zombie infantry 80. Standard highway driving is considered to be 500 miles a day.

Are we talking only low-level army ideas here? Because an Ifreeti becomes mandatory for any high powered army that wants to make preparations to fight another high powered army.

I'll rephrase CvC: War is mere continuation of economics by other means.

What kind of economy does DnD Land have? Wish? Who is fighting whom?


P.s. "This thread" started with discussion how great it would be to teach everyone Wizardry with moveable type printing press. My opinion: not really great.

A lot of the things that are terrible for PCs are actually pretty great en masse. Example: a single magic missile is...unimpressive. A thousand single magic missiles is a killer. Same for cure cantrips, etc.

RadiantPhoenix wrote:This thread started talking about how useful level 1 Wizards would be to an army, so I thought maybe we should discuss optimal army design, strategy, and tactics in D&D land.

Beat me to it.

The usual list of crowd control spells work. I'd say level 1 spells are particularly good for siege warfare for both aggressors and attackers.

Obscuring mist and silent image are going to be all kinds of disruptive on the battlefield.

The material cost of a skeletal light horse is 150gp, and it consumes 3HD of undead control cap until it's been programmed.

Switching to a skeletal light warhorse adds +2 strength and a bite attack. I think it's questionable whether that's worth it.

Skeletal Light Horse
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d12 (23? hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+7
Attack: Hoof -1 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 2 hooves -1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: DR5/bludgeoning, Darkvision 60ft, Immunity to cold, Undead traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Wherever you least want them to be
Organization: Undead cavalry
Challenge Rating: 1
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

When the armies of the lich king are putting your villages to the torch, or chasing your armies until you drop dead of exhaustion, this is how they get around.

A light horse cannot fight while carrying a rider.

Note that, being undead, and thus completely tireless, they can sprint every round, all day and night, every day of the year.

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a light horse is up to 150 pounds; a medium load, 151–300 pounds; and a heavy load, 301–450 pounds. A light horse can drag 2,250 pounds.

My 2 cents - Homing Missiles.
Requires 7th level Wizards (or 5th level Wizards and 5th level Cleric). No idea how optimal is that.

1) Gem magic from MoF - allows to make triggerable magic gems.
2) Make gems with updated (to cantrip in SpC) Amanuensis - (copies non-magical texts, triggers magical writing) - (25 gp or 12.5 gp + 0.5 xp)
3) Make gems trigger by proximity to [insert desription of enemy combatant/monster]
4) Attach gems to pieces of paper with Explosive Runes (preferably empowered, widened and maximized)
5) Attach resulting grenades to zombie ravens (can fly) or skeletal rats you animated or commanded (6.25 gp per bird/rat)
6) ???
7) Sign non-proliferation treaty.

Staffing your army with 1st-level wizards makes about as much sense as placing the valedictorian that just graduated from West Point or Nuclear Power School directly as a departmental head. You'd only do it if you were ten kinds of desperate. Which, hey, that might be the case if the orcs were literally at the gates as is often the case with D&D politics.

From a society-wide standpoint, wizards are a huge investment of money that don't really start to pay off until they get around to level 5 or so. 1st level wizard filibusters are a common thing from the perspective of PCs, but that's because PCs tend to posit career-derailing shit like academically inadequate wizard colleges or the death of the mentor or running out of money or being bit with the murderhobo bug. But the idea of 1st-level wizards being the backbone of a Fantasy Great Leap Forward army is ridiculous. If you need a large amount of cannon fodder, training war clerics or warblades or rangers or psychic warriors makes a lot more sense.

Necromancer armies do not use horses. It is inefficient. I mean, for one, the fact that you're raising undead en mass implies that you have access to 3rd necromancy level spells, many of which would negate the need for an army in the first place. But also because using oxen gives you way more action for your onyx.

An ox cart pulled by a single undead ox costs 155gp in material components. It pulls 7600lbs behind it. A single undead light horse (not a war horse, just a regular horse) with basic, non-military saddle costs the same amount of gold but carries less than 1/16th the weight. This goes up to 1/4th the weight if you also buy the horse a cart, but it's still obviously inferior from a logistical perspective. The horse's only advantage, that it travels 50% faster than the ox, is negated by the fact that that you're spending at leat four times as much gold and over twice as many HD cap on horses as you would with oxen.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Staffing your army with 1st-level wizards makes about as much sense as placing the valedictorian that just graduated from West Point or Nuclear Power School directly as a departmental head. You'd only do it if you were ten kinds of desperate. Which, hey, that might be the case if the orcs were literally at the gates as is often the case with D&D politics.

From a society-wide standpoint, wizards are a huge investment of money that don't really start to pay off until they get around to level 5 or so. 1st level wizard filibusters are a common thing from the perspective of PCs, but that's because PCs tend to posit career-derailing shit like academically inadequate wizard colleges or the death of the mentor or running out of money or being bit with the murderhobo bug. But the idea of 1st-level wizards being the backbone of a Fantasy Great Leap Forward army is ridiculous. If you need a large amount of cannon fodder, training war clerics or warblades or rangers or psychic warriors makes a lot more sense.

I'm not sold on that. Full-plates and war horses were huge investments. And noble families spent fortunes on these and then put their investment on the battlefield anyway, because not only it was usually a matter of existential threats (as you also note in your post) but also because it was super important for the nobles to prove that they kept being badasses.

Starting NPC bruisers do not get that at first level. Hell, full-plate is only a thing that NPCs fighters get at level 3 at the cost of having nothing else cool.

If you're a first-level character, no matter what your class, you get a pittance of gear. Note that actual NPC warriors get equipment that's worth a mere few dozens of gold pieces at most. What's more, 1st-level sword-based characters get much more mileage out of their abilities. 1st-level wizards barely fight better than commoners after they cast their spell.

Only desperate people, idiots, and people pulling a David-and-Uriah field 1st-level wizards on a serious battlefield. It's like putting a Navy Seals candidate that survived Hell Week but hasn't actually gone through the formal schooling out on mine-sweeping duty. It's a waste of potential and actual resources.

Are they limited to their spells alone? Because their biggest value is probably activating arcane scrolls and wands 100% reliably.

Lago why are you assuming a population where wizards are as rare as navy seals, West Point Valedictorians and Nuclear Power engineers? This thread spawned from the other one where people were discussing the possibility and ramifications of much of the population being wizards.

Radiant Phoenix is clearly brainstorming ideas for a world with enough wizards that this isn't an automatically retarded idea. Or even just an interesting scenario where a low level wizard gets stuck in a battle because shit goes to hell. So you came here just to say you don't like wizards being plentiful. Ok message received.

So, what is this looking at? Is it just "how do I army?" or is it optimizing some particular starting point?

Oh, so we're doing a thing where the demographics for this thread's hypothetical army are completely different than the assumptions in the DMG?

Regardless, it's still stupid to regularly use 1st-level wizards, especially human wizards, as army cannon fodder even if they're as common as commoners. D&D Wizards, unlike real-world soldiers, have a high ceiling for growth. The difference in efficacy between a seasoned infantryman veteran that has gone to several training billets/schools and someone fresh out of boot camp in the real world isn't super-duper high. Wizards, of course, are quadratic in power, such that a force of 100 5th-level wizards will roflstomp a force of 1000 1st-level wizards. You thus only field 1st-level wizards if you can't keep them in reserve and training, such as if you're being besieged right now.

Shady314 wrote:Because their biggest value is probably activating arcane scrolls and wands 100% reliably.

Activating arcane scrolls and wands is, military speaking, a waste of money most of the time. A wand of fireballs costs over 10,000 gp and isn't appreciably better in efficiency, availability, or efficacy in the vast majority of military instances than spending a a year training 30 warriors to 2nd or 3rd level and equipping them with shortbows. And that's one of the better wands.

Isn't this how magical "favored class is wizard!" elf society is already in D&D?

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Oh, so we're doing a thing where the demographics for this thread's hypothetical army are completely different than the assumptions in the DMG?

Yes. Or like you yourself said just assume an army is desperate enough to do this. If you were playing a 1st level wizard with your partymates and you were going to be involved in a battle what would you do? Ok so you won't get involved on the frontlines. What would you do then? Im far more interested in that then an explanation of DnD 3.5 demographics. Please no snark about using Mount or similar to abandon your party.

Activating arcane scrolls and wands is, military speaking, a waste of money most of the time.

Eberron has eternal wands. They are 2/day rather than 50 charges. I thought this board was full of dumpster diving munchkin power gaming types. That's why I joined. There's got to be some way to make this work.

EDIT: Incorrectly put 3/day rather than 2/day. Corrected it.

Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics; so the saying goes.

But anyway. You got an army of 1st-level wizards and you don't care about demographics or sustainability or sociopolitics, right? So I assume that you're using something like, say, Leadership. So I have a few questions.

1.) Do they have to be wizards, or can they just be 1st-level whatevers? I'd personally rather have an army of clerics or wilders.

2.) Is this theoretical army being buttressed by something like 20 5th level wizards who are helping them craft shift and share spellbooks? Or are they only allowed the same resources that individual 1st-level NPCs get?

3.) What are we using for material? Core rules only? SRD? SRD minus Unearthed Arcana? Core + Complete Series? Core + DMG2/PHB2? What?

Shady314 wrote:I thought this board was full of dumpster diving munchkin power gaming types. That's why I joined. There's got to be some way to make this work.

You pretty much thought wrong.
There are (other) folks here who have an encyclopedic knowledge of various systems and are inveterate tinkers, but that's mostly channeled into either examining system failure modes, tinkering with setting assumptions, or realizing offbeat concepts.

So. What are you actually trying to do?
Most of the things an army does are not pitched battles in an open field, so you really need to come up with an actual problem if you want more than "here are some random neat tricks."

1. I don't know about anybody else but yes Id still be interested in 1st level cleric/wilder powers put to use.
2. Seems reasonable to me.
3. I love to see the crazy stuff but anything that has half a prayer of the DM allowing it. Lets say anything not third party. Most DMs I ever played with will at least consider stuff from an official source.

I was thinking "things you can do with low-level stuff"

Maybe a premise like this: you're someone in the Wish economy, and you feel like doing something cool with that huge mountain of gold you have lying around taking up space. So, you decide to build an army and try to conquer shit using it.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:If you need a large amount of cannon fodder, training war clerics or warblades or rangers or psychic warriors makes a lot more sense.

SRD wrote:

Barbarian Rogue Sorcerer Soulknife Wilder

Bard Fighter Paladin Ranger Psychic Warrior

Cleric Druid Monk Psion Wizard

Sorcerers and Wilders are the quick shit, Bards and Psychic Warriors are next best, and then you either get to level 4 or shell out for a Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Psion

Note: your Bards and Psychic Warriors need to be level 2 to have powers.

Since there doesn't appear to be a Silent Image, Psionic in the XPH, that means you're stuck either breeding Sorcerers or leveling Bards if you're not willing to shell out on training Wizards or similar.

fectin wrote: but that's mostly channeled into either examining system failure modes, tinkering with setting assumptions, or realizing offbeat concepts.
So. What are you actually trying to do?

Those last two things. Im not playing or running any DnD campaigns so I'm not looking for things to actually do but a wizard/cleric whatever army seems like a very interesting concept. Anyways my munchkin comment was in jest. I was only referring to this boards obvious system mastery.

Clerics solve all kinds of logistics problems that in real life caused soldiers to run away from their posts or die of poo illnesses.

Maybe some sort of Wizard ROTC for peasant kids who have the brains but not the coin. Ridcully was a farm boy, after all. You get some OCS knife & fork education alongside learning to cast spells. Once you can cast a big one (Silent Image seems a popular candidate), you do your initial tour of duty to pay for school. Lieutenant-Mages are assigned to a unit, and are responsible for leading them as well as using them as meatshields. As officers, they are generally taken alive. When they ding 4th, their tour is up, and can then choose whether they what to climb the officer ranks, go the scholarly/wizilla route, or hang out with goblin-gut covered adventurers.

OgreBattle wrote:Clerics solve all kinds of logistics problems that in real life caused soldiers to run away from their posts or die of poo illnesses.

Good point; disease, hunger and thirst are the worst problems an army faces, and 5th level clerics can cure all of those things. How many lives will a wand of remove disease save? The answer is 50. How many lives will daily castings of purify food and drink save? Shit, create water alone pretty much redefines how you can march your army.

How many lives will a wand of remove disease save? The answer is 50.

No. The answer is much higher than 50 unless you exclusively use it on non-communicable disease.

-Username17