Magical Ways to Emulate Modern Techonology

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Post by K »

hyzmarca wrote:Thematically, if I was going with a Garden Lich I'd emulate the modern cemetary, rather than the standard unkempt fantasy cemetery. It's immaculate, pristine, and perfect. Indeed, it's too perfect. It's very respectful. Indeed, it's too respectful. It's a facade for the living, cover their eyes so that they can make themselves forget the rot under the ground.

It would be eerie in it's uniformity, and vast.

Something like this.

Image
Orchards and farms are very organized. Basically, you are describing every form of food production.

Image

Death and plants tends to look like a MtG swamp card.

Image
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Post by Grek »

It's almost as if it were some sort of food production for liches. Oh, wait.
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Post by K »

Grek wrote:It's almost as if it were some sort of food production for liches. Oh, wait.
"Oh shit, look at all these farms. This country is full of liches! Why is every town and village we pass so full of liches!?!?!"
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Post by K »

Prak wrote:Wizard PC: "Huh. We're in a desert, but there's a bigass hanging garden over there. It would take a good deal of magic to maintain that thing in the desert..."
Dwarf PC: "The architecture is actually quite reminiscent of ancient Kadur tomb style..."
Cleric PC: "Undead constantly drain life energy, so the more intelligent ones tend to surround themselves with it. There are necromantic magics which will preserve life, which the magically inclined ones may use to help assure their power source"
Wizard PC: "And it would be simple enough to lay healing and plant growth magics into a building. That's where the lich is."
Lich: "Ok, so we are building our lair in the desert."
Minion: "Are you going to build a garden or something to offset your life-draining aura?"
Lich: "Fuck no! It's a desert. Who is going to notice in the middle of all this sand and rocks and shit?"
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Post by Prak »

The people they're living around they'd be draining life from otherwise?

And hey, Liches like looking at pretty things too.
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Post by name_here »

The Lich is feeding off life. If not surrounded by life there's nothing to feed off and he goes dormant.
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Post by K »

name_here wrote:The Lich is feeding off life. If not surrounded by life there's nothing to feed off and he goes dormant.
If you add that in as a condition, being undead is suddenly much worse than any other spellcaster option for extended life. It means you can't adventure or explore most other planes.

It also means that destroying a lich is as hard as setting a fire to his forest.

Unless he can go several days between "feeding," and then he doesn't even need a forest because he can teleport to some hinterland every few days.
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Post by Prak »

Thanks for joining us in what we've been saying for, like, six pages now.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Grek »

Alternatively: It's not an ambient thing. Liches have to death touch a living thing every once in a while in order to absorb its life energy. More life energy means the lich can go longer between killings. Stuff killed this way withers and dies in a very obvious way, making it clear that there's a lich around if the lich isn't very tidy about clearing away the shriveled corpses and rotted trees.
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Post by K »

Grek wrote:Alternatively: It's not an ambient thing. Liches have to death touch a living thing every once in a while in order to absorb its life energy. More life energy means the lich can go longer between killings. Stuff killed this way withers and dies in a very obvious way, making it clear that there's a lich around if the lich isn't very tidy about clearing away the shriveled corpses and rotted trees.
That's somewhat better. It takes almost no effort to dismantle the farmer-lich idea.
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Post by OgreBattle »

If the willing undead need to kill things to live, how does that make them any different from living humans that flatten the wilds for farmland and slaughter animals for meat.
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Post by K »

OgreBattle wrote:If the willing undead need to kill things to live, how does that make them any different from living humans that flatten the wilds for farmland and slaughter animals for meat.
It really doesn't, one of the many reasons that the farmer-lich is a bad idea.

Being undead has to be in some way less good than being alive. It can't be something fruity like "you can't ever feel real joy" or "every day is full of pain." People live with that shit every day, and adding immortality and power to the mix is just a straight improvement.

In a very real way, being undead has to be worse than being a 60-year old or else it has no dramatic power at all.
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Post by Starmaker »

K wrote:Being undead has to be in some way less good than being alive. It can't be something fruity like "you can't ever feel real joy" or "every day is full of pain." People live with that shit every day, and adding immortality and power to the mix is just a straight improvement.

In a very real way, being undead has to be worse than being a 60-year old or else it has no dramatic power at all.
There are many terrible things people live with every day, and many of them are widely considered worse than death; people want euthanasia to be legal for a reason. If undeath has to be strictly worse than all the shit people have to live with, it is worse than being dead. No one whatsoever will become sentient undead voluntarily, and all who accidentally become undead will be trying to commit suicide, which pretty much precludes them from being anything but end bosses. So no, that's a bad criterion.

"You can't ever feel real joy" is actually a legitimate drawback if you were considering undeath IRL. It doesn't work in a roleplaying game not because it's insufficiently horrible (it's as horrible as it gets), but because it's completely unenforceable. You need stuff like Koumei's soul mortgage, actual mechanical disadvantages which are bad enough to be felt by the player but don't preclude the character from being a contributive party member.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Ok, so, something i just stumbled over while reading all of this . .
In a world full of undead/necromancy evilbad death magic . .
WHY are there cemeteries at all and not just crematories?
Even if the lich can still drain unlifeenergy from it for sustenance, i want to see him try and animate what ammounts to heaps of dust to do anything even remotely usefull . .
Well, you could mix with water and something else and do the whole classic golem thing i guess . .
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Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Other idea: Negative Energy is to Positive Energy as Anti-Matter is to Matter.

When negative and positive energy come into contact, they mutually annhilate one another and convert into heat. This is why some vampires combust in the sun, they're saturated with more negative energy than their bodies can contain, and the positive energy in the sunlight reacts with it.

The undead body is a containment vessel for negative energy, much as a magnetic bottle is a containment vessel for anti-matter. But it's a fail-deadly containment vessel.

So if you stab a zombie he might explode.

I don't know how this is a good idea for playable undead, I just think it's a cool drawback.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Exploding zombies is at least in WH40k a thing, nurgle likes to spread his love that way.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by nockermensch »

I think the undead "corrupting" their lairs with death and decadence probably comes from sympathetic magic. About every RL magical tradition had this idea that it's easier to alter reality if you surround yourself by symbols of the thing you desire. So having a lich or vampire living in a Tim Burton scenario makes sense if your magical system says that's somehow easier for them to act when every fucking thing around them is black and/or a skull. Alternatively, it could happen because an inverse process: by simple existing, a magical creature makes symbols for it to manifest around it. This incidentally seems to explain the entire reasoning behind "Lair Actions" in 5e.
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Post by Wiseman »

Image

So I go away for a while, and come back to find that the thread has derailed.

No scratch that, it hasn't just derailed. It then landed on another set of rails and then crashed headlong into another thread going the opposite direction.

Anyways, I have a question. What about magitek like vehicles? Like hovercycles or airships? Or magical cannons. Would those significantly disrupt gameplay?
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TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".
The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".
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Post by Stahlseele »

pretty much.
a magical armored airship with archers on them probably means world domination shortly after inventing it . .

hover-coaches would make getting from point a to point b much easier and faster and especially for near coast islands would mean a way to get to and fro no matter how the weather/sea is . .

magical cannons? need nobody to aim them? need not be resupplied by ammo? are invisible and don't make noise when fired? always hit true?
break through magical armour?

yeah, no, that breaks all sorts of things . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Wiseman »

My idea was that they needed somebody manning them to work at all. Not sure how casting illusions on them would play out though.

Not sure what they would use as ammunition? Magic battery packs?
Last edited by Wiseman on Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RadiantPhoenix wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".
The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".
hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Sufficient advanced magipunk becomes indistinguishable from science fiction. Those sorts of things wouldn't necessarily disturb mechanical balance, but they'd wreak havoc with the theming of play.
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Post by nockermensch »

Wiseman wrote:Anyways, I have a question. What about magitek like vehicles? Like hovercycles or airships? Or magical cannons. Would those significantly disrupt gameplay?
The answer is another question: "how easy and cheap are they to produce?"

D&D already has long range mobility and artillery, but these are called "monsters" or "spellcasters". For machines to even begin to disrupt the status quo they'll need to compete with those. A magic cannon has to be cheaper to make and/or easier to operate than a wand of fireball, for example, or people will keep using the wand just for the ease of carry.
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Post by Prak »

The weird thing about using magic to replace tech is that almost everything tech can do, magic can do better.

Tech can give you a reliable(ish) conveyance that runs on a somewhat readily available, but unfortunately not renewable, natural resource.

Magic can give you a completely reliable conveyance, that runs on nothing, and shrinks down to fit in your pocket when not using it.

If you gave me the choice between, say, a Lotus sportscar, and a goat of traveling, for free, my only question would be "does the goat come in black?" It's a legitimate limitation that the goat only runs at 28 mph, but there's no reason you can't put Expeditious Retreat in that fucker's mix of spells, and get almost 60 mph out of him. If you gave it, like, Cuffs of Striding and Springing, and put ER on it, you'd get 68 mph out of it.

The Goat of Traveling only has the following problems compared to a car-
  • Not enclosed, so it's more like a motorcycle
  • Only usable up to 24 hours a week
  • Can be broken in Statuette Form
But it doesn't require gas, most people probably drive less than 3.4 hours a day on average, and you could put it in a case if you were really concerned.

So a Magitech Society should have Figurine Dealerships. Your Figurine has no key, but it may have a loop to put on a keyring, and you may get a small adamantine case (maybe the case has the loop) that you can keep it in for safety.

Magitech TV would be better than the real thing too. Broadcast frequencies limit the number of channels, and it's all controlled by big corporations. In contrast, Magitech TV is a screen of water contained in a thin glass tank with Use Activated Scry. You don't have channels, so much as people who want to broadcast something give out a coordinates. Items of Programmed Image take the place of video cassettes and other media storage. You could seriously program an image to take place in magnifying glass scale on the Programmed Image item and the Scry Screen scrys on the interior of a box nearby--a magitech VCR. Again, this set up can't break. Worst case scenario, a crafter sells limited use items as a magitech form of planned obsolescence.

Actually, hell, that makes me realize that movie rental is super easy in magitech. No need to worry about returns, you're just selling single use items of Programmed Image (or whatever).

And again, this can be way smaller than it's real analogues. PIIs can be the size of marbles, the Scry Screens can be sold without water in Shrink Image form. Hell, if you wanted, you could include a "Dust of Create Water" with the Scry Screens for a really minimal charge. Portable DVD Players become a pan, a bottle of water, and a bag of marbles. And it's all high fidelity. Hell, your TV comes with built in video chat capabilities for no extra charge. Hacking cable becomes figuring out your hot neighbour's bedroom coordinates and their boning schedule. TV Guides give physical coordinates and times of events for people who want to tune in.

Magitech Society doesn't have newsvans, it has rugs of teleport ring and people continuously casting Commune with the god of Journalism for scoops, and a Message service that sends out coordinates when they're live on location.

Edit: But the thing is- as I understand it, there are three big keys to driving a technological revolution (based on a quick google for what allowed the Industrial Revolution)- a population boom (or other thing resulting in a higher percentage of people not needed to work fields), a resource boom (or general abundance of resources), and policies/social innovations which make it feasible for society to move past artisanship and into mass production.

So D&D World needs to get a population boom-- maybe a sect of druids decide to start blessing the crops every year, leading to an increase of food, leading to more people being born/living to adulthood and less need for every person to work the fields (a 1/3 increase in crop productivity should mean roughly a 1/3 reduction in required manpower, right?); a resource boom-- maybe a magical substance is found that takes the place of XP in crafting, maybe the magic mystery dust that goes into making items is found in a giant deposit or something, whatever it is, suddenly the most costly resources for items is available in huge quantities and prices can drop; and the introduction of true banking (a friend of mine likes the idea of Bahamut introducing banking backed by his hoard, and it is an interesting concept) as well as government policies that recognize intellectual property.
Last edited by Prak on Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by momothefiddler »

Prak wrote:a 1/3 increase in crop productivity should mean roughly a 1/3 reduction in required manpower, right?
1/4
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Post by Prak »

Plant Growth specifies a 1/3 increase in crop productivity. That means 25% fewer people need to work the field?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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