[OSSR]Races of Eberron

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Seerow
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Post by Seerow »

You may be talking about prestige classes, but I'm talking about the whole lot.
Which is great and all, but still totally a non-sequitor given the line of conversation up to the point of you going off about feats. Since it started with me responding to Kaelik saying all prestige classes should have no prerequisites except level.

If we want to start talking about feats I'll talk about how the whole system is stupid, and any way you try to modify the prerequisites really isn't going to fix it. Because of the problem outlined in the review of feats having half a dozen different opposing roles that they are trying to fill. If you can choose just ONE of those roles for feats to fill, then we can start talking about what kinds of prereqs are appropriate, if any are at all.

Fighters already have to navigate their way through seas of feat-chains, in a very unfriendly feat-economy. Why add the extra wrinkle? Why, again, do you insist that the character has to be so high to ride the prestige class?
It isn't about making another wrinkle to make it harder for a Fighter to qualify. Because a Fighter is going to qualify for this without blinking. It's about making it so the Fighter types get things that are unique to them. Because you want your Fighters to level up into Hell Knight, but don't want the Rogue or Wizard going into it, they have their own options.

More to the point, you are objecting very specifically to BAB prerequisites, but don't even care about the caster level prerequisites I posited in the same post right next to it. Why is that?
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Post by Ancient History »

Seerow wrote:
You may be talking about prestige classes, but I'm talking about the whole lot.
Which is great and all, but still totally a non-sequitor given the line of conversation up to the point of you going off about feats. Since it started with me responding to Kaelik saying all prestige classes should have no prerequisites except level.
I see them as aspects of the same problem. The problem being that BAB as a prerequisite is shit.
Fighters already have to navigate their way through seas of feat-chains, in a very unfriendly feat-economy. Why add the extra wrinkle? Why, again, do you insist that the character has to be so high to ride the prestige class?
It isn't about making another wrinkle to make it harder for a Fighter to qualify. Because a Fighter is going to qualify for this without blinking.
Except when it is.
It's about making it so the Fighter types get things that are unique to them. Because you want your Fighters to level up into Hell Knight, but don't want the Rogue or Wizard going into it, they have their own options.
Different issue, but again, it's something much easier and straightforward to do with straightforward level requirements. These one-remove prerequisites are rubbish.
More to the point, you are objecting very specifically to BAB prerequisites, but don't even care about the caster level prerequisites I posited in the same post right next to it. Why is that?
It's not that I don't actually care about caster level requirements, as much as I don't like caster levels as D&D3.+ had them. It may be I care less about them because D&D is less stingy with caster levels than they are with BAB; you can buy feats to buy up CL. The fact that caster level was disassociated with character level - mostly because of prestige classes - is just one of the niggling annoyances that contributed to some of the baroque mechanics of the edition.
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Post by Username17 »

Josh_Kablack wrote:Ok, now I'm curious.

If both feats and PrCs are design failures, what are viable possible solutions for allowing customization in class+level systems ? Should differences between characters of the same class be only cosmetic? Should differences all be in-class selections, like choice of animal companion or favored school?
Feats and Prestige Classes are different kinds of failures. Feats fail because they are trying to do too many things and there aren't enough of them around. If you got a feat every session, using them as gateways on non-standard maneuvers could work. Hell, if you got one every level having them confiscated for feat taxes to make nonstandard ability combinations work could be a thing people accepted.

For Feats, if you're going to give out small numbers of them, they have to be big. Like, Tome Feats big. Which of course, is why we did them that way. We did some polling, and that's what people seemed to want. And I think that probably wasn't the right direction either, because then not having the right feat is too much of a kick in the nuts. People actually want and deserve to be able to spend a feat on dancing or ghost hunting or some fucking thing. And that really means that you have to get a shit tonne more of them than you do. A feat every level is a minimum. It might be better to give out a couple feats that you have to take from different arbitrary categories.

In any case, feat chains are not a thing that can or should happen. Throwing six feats down a hole in order to whirlwind attack is just wrong. Further, math fix feats are by and large bad. And minor bonus feats that aren't math fixes are arguably even worse.

So on the feats end, you'd want things to be like Educated or Tomb Tainted Soul, and not at all like Improved Disarm or Spell Focus. But you'd want to hand them out like candy. that unfortunately means that you're going to need to make a really large number of feats so that player characters can diversify, and you're going to need that number to be large as soon as the edition launches. And that can't be garbage tier feats like Relic Hunter or Path of Shadows - they have to be real things that actually unlock character concepts.

Prestige Classes are a different problem. What people want is for there to be a premade PrC that matches their character and their character arc as it has organically grown in play. And that's impossible. It would require for there to be millions of prewritten PrCs. Seriously, millions. You couldn't even read all the prestige classes if there were enough to do that.

You can simulate having enough PrCs by having DMs roll their own as players need them. But while that works, it's already well established that players don't like it and the lack of intergame transparency sinks the project. So what you need is to have something PrC-like that doesn't require millions, let alone hundreds of thousands of writeups to be usable.

So what you need with PrCs is to have them be prereq free. And indeed, to have them be agnostic as to whether you're coming in as a Wizard or a Rogue. That last part makes people make Scooby Doo noises, but the fact of the matter is that you should be able to jump directly into Witch Queen from Rogue without taking any "caster class" along the way. Basically the model needs to be a bit closer to 4e Paragon Classes, but not have the Paragons be tied to specific classes at all.

My pet project on that score would be to have all the core classes just fucking end at a specific level and then force people to start leveling into Paragon Classes at that point. And if you want to have a major discontinuity in class theme at that point that should be OK.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Frank, as far as having characters digivolve into brand new concepts, how do you feel about the idea of having the Witch Queen class have a slate of pre-determined abilities but also allow limited trade-in? For example, if you enter the class with the Sneak Attack class feature your minions are now assassin and shadow demon flavored? If you don't have any qualifying trade-ins, you're just a regular-ass Witch Queen.

The idea is to have Witch Queens that have cosmetic differences depending on the character's past history if the old background is thematically compatible with the new one. However, the idea is also to completely eliminate unwanted synergies because these thematic deviations are already accounted-for in the class. And to avoid having a Witch Queen or whatever class with three pages worth of expected trade-ins you only do this for expected or anticipated common class progressions and figure that someone who wanted to advance from, say, berserker to Witch Queen didn't really care too much about thematic continuity in the first place.

I mean, there are very good reasons to have characters make a complete break with the past when they digivolve. It saves space, it's more balanced, and allows you to come up with crazier concepts. However, a lot of people will whine and complain that even though that their character is a Kaiju Shifter now the story should still somehow care that they used to be able to charm small squads of enemies with their beautiful oratory. I think that these people should be thrown a bone or two, even if we all really know that Elothar is going to have to be weaned from his double swords sooner or later.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The idea is to have Witch Queens that have cosmetic differences depending on the character's past history...
Then you want your "cosmetic differences" to be determined by the prior class, and not be a set of options on the new class.

Because if it's on the new class, even if you stiff over some "inappropriate" class transitions (which people will not agree with) it's still multiplicative complexity. If it's on the old class end it's just ONE set of cosmetic carry over traits per class.

Now you could do it by just keeping all your old class stuff as that cosmetic carry over, but that's likely going to result in synergy issues. But if each of the low tier classes had a small section of "you get these various minor perks after you leave this class" it would be potentially significantly easier to deal with the synergy issues.

So it doesn't matter if you leave berserker for witch queen or ninja lord, you keep a small cosmetic background thingy from berserker that's written in the little footnote on "leaving this class".

It really seems the much more sensible way of doing what you are trying to wrangle there.
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Post by Username17 »

You're never going to be able to have Witch Queen make backward looking function calls, because you're going to keep writing Heroic Tier classes. If Witch Queen gives you a shadow demon cohort for coming in with Sneak Attack, what happens when you inevitably make the Scout Class with its very similar but not quite the same Skirmish ability?

About the best you're going to be able to do is to have each heroic tier class give a choice of forward looking Paragon effects. So getting to the end of Scout gives you your choice of three "Paragon Destinies" or whatever the fuck you want to call them. Hopefully, at least one of the Paragon Destinies would be helpful when you go into Witch Queen and you could choose to take that one. And if you decided to go Master of the Wild instead, maybe you could get some mileage out of one of the others.

By putting it in as a forward looking ability and giving you a choice of three, you could set it up so that you could get at least some kind of synergy no matter which one you went with. Even if, as will inevitably happen, you subsequently print a lot more heroic tier and a metric shit tonne more paragon tier classes in later books.

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Post by ...You Lost Me »

What about when other resource minigames come into play? If I take the Necromancer class using essentia, I probably shouldn't be going into Witch Queen with per-encounter spellcasting or War Hulk with a rage mechanic. Wouldn't you need to include non-level prereqs or some backwards-looking function call?
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Post by Prak »

You could probably do worse than to make Paragon Destinies key off of Power Source, so if you're a Rogue and you go Witch Queen, you get the "Arcane Power" Paragon Destiny, and if you go War Hulk you get the "Charles Atlas" Paragon Destiny. Or something. I suppose it's a bit of an open question whether you make Paragon Destinies for the power source the class already uses, since there should be some measure of synergy already.
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Post by Orion »

YLM,

If we're going to strip out most of the heroic class's abilities and leave them only a select few carry-overs, I'd think we could just take those carryovers out of the resource system entirely. So as a Necromancer, you had an essentia pool, but as an ex-necromancer you just have a undead cohort and 4 undead minions, with no essentia to move around. Similarly, as a Magician you had at-will, encounter, and daily spells, but as an ex-magician you just have a couple of at-will spells, including some that used to be encounter spells. You don't need to have magician dailies any more because you have witch king dailies, or witch king essentia, or whatever.
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Post by Koumei »

Warforged Paladin actually seems fairly popular. At my table, it was the loud, obnoxious guy who played one. Of course.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Koumei wrote:Warforged Paladin actually seems fairly popular. At my table, it was the loud, obnoxious guy who played one. Of course.
I've played several warforged paladins. Despite never being at your table, your story checks out.
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Post by Koumei »

It might be the fact that a paladin is the epitome of "knight in shining, gleaming armour" and the warforged comes with that armour as part of his actual body. Or the bit where simplistic alignment attitudes probably appeal to robot brains.
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Post by MGuy »

Koumei wrote:It might be the fact that a paladin is the epitome of "knight in shining, gleaming armour" and the warforged comes with that armour as part of his actual body. Or the bit where simplistic alignment attitudes probably appeal to robot brains.
I've played as a warforged pali for the latter reason but only once. I viewed mine as an ex soldier who 'needed' a simplistic way to view the world. He wasn't the loud type though. I played him as more of a quiet unerring killing machine.

As I think about it, despite the fact that I liked the kalashtar's backstory I never actually played as one. I remember a time when I was going to but I changed my mind because I found playing a dinosaur riding halfling more interesting.
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Post by Username17 »

...You Lost Me wrote:What about when other resource minigames come into play? If I take the Necromancer class using essentia, I probably shouldn't be going into Witch Queen with per-encounter spellcasting or War Hulk with a rage mechanic. Wouldn't you need to include non-level prereqs or some backwards-looking function call?
The answer to that question is where you think the sweet spot is between balance and continuity. Obviously the most balanced option is to completely toss your Necromancer or Assassin abilities and give you a new set when you become a Power Lich or Witch Queen. Obviously the most continuous option is to have full carryover of your Necromancer or Assassin abilities into your new class and just have the abilities mix and match as they happen to. Which means that the most balanced option has no continuity and the most continuous option has essentially no balance.

The idea would be to have classes get forward looking carryover packages with the assumption that you were in fact going to have a new class that you would be falling back on for most of your heavy lifting in Paragon Challenges. A Necromancer who was at all balanced in the Heroic Tier (as opposed to the 5e Necromancer, who is simply better than you) would have personal actions that were "pretty shit" because their personal actions plus the actions of their skeletons and ghosts would be supposed to influence the action as much as the actions of the Assassin player alone. But as soon as the Necromancer Paragons into Stormlord or Demigod or something, they are very definitely going to have actions available to them that are equal in import to what the Berserker/Stormlord or Psion/Demigod gets up to. That means that however much of their Skeleton Horde that they are allowed to take into Paragon, it has to be balanced against the idea of the character taking full value actions instead of half value actions.

Now lots of abilities can just stick around as is. If an Enchanter can make weapons at 1st level he can jolly well keep being able to do that when he becomes a Paragon tier Master of the Wild. If the Assassin can disarm traps in Heroic, he can just keep being able to do that when he becomes a Cancer Mage. Similarly, if the Necromancer can do some out-of-combat healing, she can just keep doing that no matter what she Paragons into. I'm sure players will be able to find some synergy and anti-synergy with low level out-of-combat powers, but that will make them feel clever and/or immersed and won't really make that much of a difference. If a Stormlord comes from Paladin they'll be able to heal their compatriots and if they came from Berserker they wouldn't be able to, but it doesn't really matter because it's not like you haven't figured out a way to get post-battle healing for the party by the time you get to Paragon level.

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Post by tussock »

On Prestigue Classes.

The first problem is PCs should enter at 4th level. Like, weapon specialisation, and all that other +4 BAB bullshit, or if you're going to be a Necromancer or a Summoner. So that you can play some levels of it before your game dies, without having to start the game at 7th level.

They should also start again at 10th, in case you forgot to become a full caster earlier and want to keep playing. Base classes have capstones with castles and towers and shit at 9th. The game can just finish at 15th level.


The second problem is +1 casterlevel. They wanted to just give you 4th to 9th level spells, they should have just given you 4th to 9th level spells. Enter as a Wizard for low level Wizard stuff, enter as a Rogue for backstabbing, enter as a Fighter for some more feats.

So your 4th level "Expert" stuff gives 3rd level spell equivalents at 3+2 = 5th character level. Your 10th level "Companion" stuff gives 6th level spell equivalents at 9+2 = 11th character level.

No one gets reduced spell level, they just get less slots. Even some 0's. Even Bards and shit should just have 9th level spells, any Wizard or Cleric who wants fucking BAB or hit points or shit like that has it already, it's nothing.

That thing where Paladins and Rangers grab some spells, either at 3e-style mid levels, or AD&D-style high levels, you can do that or you can dodge it.
Which is really just avoiding the thing where you switch between even Fighter levels and odd Rogue levels, or odd Rogue and even Sorcerer, or odd Cleric and even Sorcerer. Though that would probably make a decent solution to almost all D&D 3's problems with multiclassing, except that everyone would do that. Gestalt, except you lose half your base slots, and you can just grab what you need when you need it.
--

On Feats.

Feats are just ass, 3e, 4e, 5e, garbage. At the very least they should be tiered, like there should be 7 levels of Feats (because most classes get 7 of them, so there's 7 real choices, and it's like a 3/4 caster), and they should be at least as good as the less good spells at that level, or the better spells slightly lower. Mostly all day, all the time, like a Warlock. Flavoured to suit, so you can disintegrate by touch as a standard action with any adamant weapon, fly by jump DC 15 if wearing a cloak and all hands are empty, poly the morph of any monster you have recently killed for the next ten minutes, or heal when eating a meal (max 3/day). Stuff you'd care about having to choose.

And your Fighter-type Prestigue classes are balanced against the damn spellcasters by giving them mini-feats that are a bit crap for the full measure.
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Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: Races of Eberron
Chapter 8: Equipment

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Armblade.
FrankT:

You wouldn't know it from reading the table of contents (which lists this chapter as the last chapter), but this chapter is only 8 pages long. The ToC fails to tell you that there's a 9th chapter, which would naturally lead you to believe this chapter takes up the rest of the book (21 pages), but it's really only 8 pages. The editor gives about as many fucks about this book as anyone else does.

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A mistake this editor will not make.

The really odd thing of course is that equipment is something that there actually is a near bottomless appetite for. A tenth level character is supposed to be running around with like ten magic items, and several of them are supposed to be replacement items for other magic items the characters used earlier in their career. So while the actual amount of feats a character can swallow is so small that there's likely no purpose to be had in writing any more, you could fill volume after volume with new magic items and it could be useful and well received. And they did, and it was.

3rd edition had a problem in which they created an “expected wealth by level” number to determine how many and how powerful the magic items characters were supposed to have. And this was a problem, because the numbers involved were too small. Someone put really a lot of work into putting together a wealth and cost progression table such that the outputs of the treasure table equaled the expectations of the wealth values for characters who had enough encounters to get to the levels in question. And it all works, and it's beautiful. And it's shit, because costs are quadratic, which means that while each cost increase is more than the one before it, the relative cost increase keeps going down. So really crucially, the first jump from +1 to +2 increases costs by 300% and the amount of toys you can afford in the 5th-10th level range is catastrophically small. And since that's coincidentally the levels most people play the game, the cost progressions really bit where it hurts the most.

Now the effects of this were many, and kind of rumbled through the game in slow motion through its entire run. The most obvious effect was that the “gear dependent” characters (Fighters, in other words), were shit. That's pretty well known. Also that DMs ended up handing out Artifacts (which bypassed wealth by level restrictions by not having costs) left right and center. And that there was a constant demand for cheap bullshit items that could stack with other items and bypass draconian wealth restrictions that way. But the most insidious wall it affected the game is by making what should have been the biggest part of this book the smallest. Since characters in the “sweet spot” level range couldn't actually afford level appropriate magic items, there wasn't the kind of demand that there obviously should have been.

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Round about 12th level, items start being relatively cheaper – the jump between a +3 item and a +4 item is a 78% cost increase instead of a 300% increase, and you start getting money faster at that level. So higher level characters would be decked out with magic items even if people weren't doing dress sphere crap where they changed amulets after every fight. But people don't really play the game at that level because other things about the system fall apart. Like how characters at that level have entourages and the challenge guidelines still assume they show up alone (meaning that enemy groups the game tells you are “appropriate” actually get steamrolled by real parties). So it ends up with the magic item system largely unused. Which is a shame, and obviously not what anyone wanted.
AncientH:

Needless to say, magic items don't look anything like a non-magical economy, and even in D&D context non-magic gear sort of gets the short shrift, because you progress too fast from mundane gear to impossibly-better magical gear. The weird magic item trending costs-by-level that Frank mentioned were in part because the designers of D&D understood that magic should be rare, and for them rare meant expensive. This made some sort of sense in AD&D, even though absolutely none of the costs made sense - but in D&D3.+, the streamlining of the magic item creation rules meant that PCs could actually manufacture magic items, some relatively quickly and easily. Eberron especially exploded the magic item economy myth, because it was supposed to be a setting where magic was beginning a quasi-industrial age and so to be much more prevalent...but despite all the magewrights in the world, even low-level magic items were measured in gold pieces.

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The more interesting question about having an equipment chapter in Races of Eberron is why have it at all. In the old AD&D days you'd expect something like this in Oriental Adventures, where you can call a sword a katana and a spear a naginata and otherwise have culturally insensitive kitsch like smoke-filled eggs for ninjas and crap. It's the Dragon magazine kind of thing where they could basically fill an article each month with "racial" weapons and gear and people would thank them for it.

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And they did!

But, as I mentioned, this is kind of weird from a racial standpoint. We've already established that IRL, races are bullshit. In D&D, they basically try to equate race as culture...except when they don't, because they want six flavors of elves or something. And while there might be cultural trends in weapons, and even national trends in weapons and styles of fighting, it's not like chimpanzees have developed a unique Chimp-Stick for their secret monk-tastic martial art.

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So in a real way, having race-specific arms and armor and crap is a bit weird and offensive. Especially when you will never use most of it, because it patently isn't better than any of the gear your PCs already have access to, or it is better and you wonder why everybody isn't using this shit already. It's not like the Drow chitinsmiths have some vast technological advantage over the village blacksmith.
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Siderant: Elven chain and other racial gear doesn't have race as a prerequisite to making it. Seriously, the Elven government could be outsourcing its chainmail manufacture to the Shire because the halflings have undercut the local guilds. Some of the racial magic items DO require you to be of a specific race, but surprisingly few of them.
FrankT:

The equipment section begins describing some extra equipment that mostly looks like it was taken from Dark Sun. Armor made from bug chitin and exotic blades that suck monkey ass. How one should go about making new equipment for D&D is an open question, and a lot of D&D authors never got the hang of it. The primary issue is that within the game, items don't have many variables that you care about. And those variables you do care about tend to just be on a sliding scale between “better” and “worse.” And while long lists of functionally identical weapons and armors that were flavored and themed differently would be much more interesting than what's in most of this book, they elected to not go there. Instead what we have is just a couple of exotic weapons that are pretty awful and that's really it.

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Actual history has a shit tonne of weapons in it that are mild variations of a similar theme, and I'm sure that various knights of the period had long dick wavings discussions about whether a poleaxe was better than a lucern hammer.

We could have gotten a whole deal on how the Kalashtar sword pommels are different from the Elvish ones and Shifter shoes are usually open toed or something. And we could have gotten stuff on cloak styles and even adventuring equipment. Like, I would expect that Changelings could probably do some weird shit with their fingers that would allow them to have lockpicks that looked pretty different from human lock picks. But we really don't get any of that. Like, it seriously bothers me that this is an entire 192 page book that is primarily dedicated to four groups of people and the entire section on material culture is 8 pages long and discusses two sets of armor made of bug chitin. Considering how fucking padded the rest of the book is, I am legitimately unable to comprehend why this chapter is so bullshit.
AncientH:

Shadowrun got away with it, but largely because Shadowrun embraced the concept of gun porn and had a fair number of traits to fiddle with. D&D has played with that, but the problem is they tend to a) go overboard and b) they age out fast. Threat zones for criticals, for example, become less important as magical damages like fire burst enter the picture; whether you weapon does slashing or piercing damage likewise seems to matter less and less at high levels, because the damage reduction is based on what your weapon is made out of and later how many fucking plusses it has and what alignment it is.

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Lawful good. +10.
FrankT:

“Racial Items” don't really go over well in the modern world. They were kind of embarrassing in the 80s, really embarrassing in the 90s, and now we just don't go there. There's still Elven Chain and Boots of Elvenkind, but we downplay that Tolkienian racist shit. But of course, this book is called “Races of Eberron,” the uniting feature of everything in this book is supposed to be that it has something or other to do with the races. Of Eberron. Where the book could have gone with this fact was to make a lot of items which were culturally or historically associated with the various races. But that would probably have required too much thought. What they did instead was mostly to have just a completely random set of magic items. There isn't even an attempt to tie these things to anything. Dust of Disturbance is just a massively overpriced pile of dust that keeps people from sleeping properly. It seems like the kind of thing a Kalashtar or Changeling might have been involved with (I mean, other than the fact that it's some fucking dust that costs 90 pounds of gold and doesn't even fucking kill people you hit with it), but what flavor text it has doesn't tie it to anything. The Pendant of Joy is a glowing amulet that makes people happy enough to get extra psionic power points, but there's no mention of the Kalashtar in any part of it. Based on the rest of the book, you'd think they'd care about it, but as far as I can tell no fucks were given when writing these and no attempt was made to tie any of these things to the world or the theme of the book. The magic items, for the most part, are just “whatever happened to be on the desk.”

Now a big exception to all this are the bonus robot parts you can get as a Warforged. Now, this seems extremely obvious. Obviously, you'd want to handle the aspect of upgrading Warforged to have pincers and wings and better armor plating and whatever the fuck as magic items. Because they have costs and use up slots and that is fucking obviously how you should handle it. And to this book's very minimal credit, it does discuss that option, but doesn't go very far with the concept. Frankly, this is how all critter powers should be handled. A powerful monster could, as a PC, simply start with less magic items and have less magic item slots to cover its innate magic powers over a Halfling or an Orc. But that's another argument entirely. For the purposes of Warforged, retractable claws and shit are actually items that are actually magic and forged and shit, and there's no reason for them to be anything other than items in game terms. Nevertheless, as you'll recall, a big chunk of the options were converted in as feats and that worked as well as a fork made of dung.

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This picture is in here. It is not a joke.
AncientH:

Arguably the big winner here was the mind blade gauntlet. It's pretty expensive, and requires you to be a Kalashtar or Inspired to actually use it, and you have to be this tall to ride the mind blade gauntlet in the Soulknife class, but it basically adds an extra enhancement to a mindblade which isn't bad. This sounds like a lot of requirements for a minimal payoff, but that's because they didn't actually think this magic item through very well - because there isn't a limit to the number of enhancements you can load on a gauntlet (if you have the cash and XP to spare), and there's no limit to what enhancement you can throw on there, because they were too stupid to specify that it only accepts normal mindblade enhancements. So you could theoretically use this thing to turn your mindblade into a function holy avenger, or add some armor special abilities for your mindshield (hey, you paid enough feats for it), and you could probably even convince Mister Cavern to let it add abilities to your mindbow if you wasted levels on that Prestige Class.

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Fuck it, we're all going to die anyway.
FrankT:

You'd think that a book about Eberron that is mostly about fluff and trying to get people invested into Eberron as a concept would write up a bunch of Artifacts. After all, Artifacts are one of the simplest ways to work around the harsh wealth by level limits. But instead of doing that they just kind of don't. One of the few artifacts in here is the Deck of Transformations, which is basically just a Deck of Many Things except all the effects are shitty and you don't care.

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Of course, I think it's important to remember that if your DM throws down a Deck of Many Things, that is him telling you that the campaign is over and it's going to end like a David Lynch vehicle.
AncientH:

Can I take a moment to complain that the full "deck" of transformations only has 39 cards? WTF is this, a friendly game of speed Magic?

The other artifacts are unique Warforged components, which is a bit like going into a Shadowrun game and telling the PCs that there are cyberware upgrades they just can't have.

Chapter 9: Magics and Psionics

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FrankT:

This 14 page chapter isn't listed as existing in the Table of Contents. But every fucking spell in the chapter is. Presumably to make the Table of Contents look like it actually covered some ground. But this only works if you're even drunker than I am, because even a cursory view of the words in the ToC prove what a farce that is. There are five entries for page 184, and one of them is for the spell dominate living construct, which I am fairly certain has never been cast in a real game. The spells here seem to be basically procedurally generated – versions of normal spells tweaked to refer to classes of targets that nominally exist but no one in their right mind would consider giving a fuck about. These spells are the kinds of gibberish you might write if you were familiar with the rules, but not the game.

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Or word salad.

More generally, the appetite for new spells is much deeper than the appetite for most other kinds of new options. Because a player is allowed to play with a fuck tonne more spells. A Wizard gets two new spells every time they level, and Clerics and Druids just get to instantly learn every new spell that is ever published. Any of those classes can get up tomorrow and prepare completely different spells from what they prepared today (unless someone slipped them some Dust of Disturbance or something). This means that even an incredibly niche spell might still see use, where a feat or character class that is even a little bit narrow in application never ever will.

That being said, Races of Eberron takes this to new levels of bullshit. Reachwalker's Wariness is a 2nd level Druid spell that lets you know the exact location of every Aberration... within... 30 feet? Seriously? It's a Druid spell, so the fact that it exists at all is an extra option that every Druid has every morning. Technically, it is a raw powerup of every Druid character ever played from now until the end of time. But while it's true that it costs Druids nothing to have that be on their spell list; it's more importantly true that that is a fucking puzzlingly useless spell that no one is going to prepare. Because it is terrible.
AncientH:

If it wasn't retarded, it would be fun to imagine a world where you programmed your feats for the morning. It could have been something for Warforged, sort of like skillwires.

The artificer infusions seem aimed, somewhat strangely, at the actual races involved her. Basically it benefits Warforged, Shifters, Changeling warshapers and Kalashtar monks, all of which have natural weapons, and these artificer infusions buff those.

Bard spells, on the other hand, seem to be almost unfettered crap. I'm against any spell that involves using Action Points just on principle, because it's a stupid tag-on point economy subsystem.
FrankT:

The effects of a new spell being printed are sometimes quite big. On account of spellcasters just being able to know new spells as they get printed. For example, unseen crafter is a 2nd level spell that lets you set an invisible force to using tools and making shit. The thing is, it lasts for one day per level. So you can just set a few of those up one day, then prepare your adventuring spells and go off on an adventure. And the whole time, your cobbler elves will keep making shoes and shit. This profoundly changes the way Clerics interact with the world around them, something that doesn't happen when a new feat or racial substitution level gets printed.

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The book seems to think you will use Unseen Crafters to repair Warforged characters, possibly because the authors are very unimaginative.
AncientH:

It works for Craft(alchemy) too, which makes me want to have a bag of holding with an alchemist's workshop and a bunch of unseen crafters down there building shit. It doesn't do Forgery, though, which seems like an oversight - but, such is the D&D3.5 skill system.

They added the "Mindset" descriptor in this chapter. Like the "Ectomancy" descriptor from Ghostwalk, this one didn't really fly in...pretty much any other book. The thing about Mindset spells is that you gain bonuses just for preparing them (and so can only be learned by characters that can prepare spells); it's pretty much a dry run for a similar mechanic in Complete Mage, where as long as you have X option online (and the right feat), you get Y minor ability. The whole process was a slow inching away from Vancian spellcasting, and you can tell they really wanted it to be something like in Magic: the Gathering where you'd have to juggle the benefit of sacrificing a card for a single moderate effect or continue to enjoy it for a minor ongoing effect. That is a good in-game decision to have to make, but they never really committed to it in D&D3.5, and the costs (feat-wise) for the abilities gained in CM were way too high - you just couldn't justify the opportunity costs. Same thing for mindset spells, I reckon, although without the feat tax - the shitty bonuses by and large don't justify keeping a spell slot occupied.

The closest one to good is the Sor/Wiz 2/Clr 3 spell furnace within, which adds 1 point of fire damage to all your natural, unarmed, and melee (with a metal weapon) attacks while not cast. It's also one of the very few (possibly only) spell that cites "dwarf" as a caster requirement, although the way they did so is a bit weird. There's other spells like that in this chapter, citing "halfling" or "shifter" like it was a focus or something.
FrankT:

The Psionics powers added in this book are so few in number that the entire “chart” of new Psionic Powers fits on the same page as the description of those powers. That means that there's no gain whatsoever in having a chart at all, because 100% of the chart simply directs you to the page you are by definition already reading. The powers on this page are actually really terrible, but also really badly written.

The one I'm going to fixate on is Primal Fear, because it's a perfect storm of bad design. It's a swift action fear effect psychic power that makes a target Shaken for one round. That's an incredibly small effect, but fear stacks and if you get shaken twice you actually got to frightened and lose a round running away. The authors seemed to realize that it might actually be useful, so they declared that it doesn't stack with any other fear effect – thus bringing up the possibility that you might be able to hit your friends with Primal Fear in order to snap them out of fear effects big enough to incapacitate them because D&D has no clear precedence in situations like that. But I think more to the point is the fact that the authors don't seem to realize that while the Intimidate skill doesn't work on targets immune to fear, it is not itself a [Fear] effect, so you can still get the double-shaken status out of this and turn it into a stunlock with the booga-booga.

Basically, the rules in this book are terrible and the ones in the psionics page seem even worse written than the book's already offensively low standards would allow.
AncientH:

We get two new domains, but they're both crap and none of their powers are anything you care about. The only thing that really annoys me about them is that there are a couple domain-only spells that...why? For instance, doppleganger transformation is a Transformation 7 spell which acts as a moderate all-around buff. It's not a 7th level buff, either. It doesn't let you detect thoughts or change shape or anything. Bizarre.

And on that sad and quizzical note, that's the book. We'll probably wrap up with some final thoughts in another post.
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Post by Meikle641 »

"Culturally insensitive kitsch like smoke-filled eggs for ninjas and crap"

What's culturally insensitive about ninja smoke bombs?

"There's still Elven Chain and Boots of Elvenkind, but we downplay that Tolkienian racist shit. "

Huh?
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Post by Ancient History »

Meikle641 wrote:"Culturally insensitive kitsch like smoke-filled eggs for ninjas and crap"

What's culturally insensitive about ninja smoke bombs?
I suppose I could have chosen a more blatant example like when Dragon stat'd out a bunch of African spears or something, but the "egg grenades" of OA were more than just ninja smoke bombs, that's just the one that came to mind. The point being that race-based equipment is...a very weird concept. Like someone telling you that all Scots dress in woad and use claymores in battle.
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Post by Meikle641 »

The only thing I remember about the Xendrik drow are the scorpion thing and living in jungles. I dunno, seems like chitin armour might be a good option given the terrain, unless you plan to use leather or hide armour. Of course, I seem to remember all sorts of weird shit in the Xen'Drik book so I really don't really remember the exact tech level of the region.

Changing the scenery should result in gear common in or specific to a region; why wouldn't that happen in D&D? If we can have 20+ kinds of european polearms, what's wrong with adding other kinds? As long as the intent isn't to degrade or turn the people into a caricature what is the problem? Sometimes groups of people have iconic armour or weaponry.

Romans had their lorica segmentum and shields, the celts (or was it pics? Whatever.) had woad and those leaf-shaped swords and stuff. Zulus have those cool shields and one-handed spears. Samurai have the lacquered armour, bows, and swords. Knights have lances, full plate, etc. Jaguar warriors had like, saw blade swords made out of obsidian. This stuff happens, and why wouldn't people want to have stats for these items?
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Ancient History wrote:Like someone telling you that all Scots dress in woad and use claymores in battle.
Don't be silly.

Scots dress in suits and bowties and herd elephants across steel bridges.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Ancient History wrote:
Meikle641 wrote:"Culturally insensitive kitsch like smoke-filled eggs for ninjas and crap"

What's culturally insensitive about ninja smoke bombs?
I suppose I could have chosen a more blatant example like when Dragon stat'd out a bunch of African spears or something, but the "egg grenades" of OA were more than just ninja smoke bombs, that's just the one that came to mind. The point being that race-based equipment is...a very weird concept. Like someone telling you that all Scots dress in woad and use claymores in battle.
In a class-splosion setup where you have knights, samurai, wizards, wujen, clerics, sohei, assassins, ninja, buccaneers and ronin, race/culture based game mechanics are expected. If the elves have their bladesingers, then people who buy the highlander splatbook expect some kilt and claymore based mechanics in there too.

Though yeah I prefer having broad classes that can fill many cultural niches, so your arabic assassin and japanese ninja are both made with the "hunter" class.
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Post by tussock »

The basic thing is Eberron is supposed to be this mixed bag of racial harmony for the most part, even the Orcs and Goblins and things man was not meant to know are just your neighbours, who you trade with, party with, adventure with, and share a language with. Some Orcs are your enemy in the same way some Elves are, or some Robots are, or a lot of Humans are.

Core 3e is much the same, human towns have all sorts living in them.

But for some reason, you're supposed to have a thing where Orc characters who grew up with you and went to school with you and now work with you use Orc weapons, instead of the good ones everybody else uses.

Similarly the Ninja in the party for some reason uses weapons and equipment built on the other side of the planet, and all the people from that part of the world represented in the game are Ninja. So, you know, all Ninjas are Asian and all Asians are Ninja, but totally not in a racist way. Asian characters also get special rules for Honour, because dishonouring someone isn't even thing in, oh, wait, yes it is.
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Post by Username17 »

Meikle641 wrote:"Culturally insensitive kitsch like smoke-filled eggs for ninjas and crap"

What's culturally insensitive about ninja smoke bombs?

"There's still Elven Chain and Boots of Elvenkind, but we downplay that Tolkienian racist shit. "

Huh?
There is a fine line between world building and racism, and D&D doesn't do a good job staying on the right side of that line. Having Elves be the first workers of mithril chain or associated with mithril chain for some historical reason, that's world building. If, on the other hand, you start going on about how Elves are the bestest at metal and everything, then you're in master race's handbook territory.

Similarly, the step between cultural expansion and yellowfacing is quite thin. It's good for characters to have cultural traits that aren't like white people traits, but if they turn into Asian characatures, that's bad. And D&D doesn't do a good job of staying on the right side.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Eric Wujcik was able to present ninjas and kungfu in the far east in a way that didn't feel like yellowface, wish that dude was still around to write games.
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Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:Having Elves be the first workers of mithril chain or associated with mithril chain for some historical reason, that's world building.
The weird bit is that elves are typically presented as one of the oldest races, so chances are they were the first workers of all kinds of metal, wood, fabric and everything else. Or did they only work with mithril, then all these young races rocked up and started experimenting with heavy metal?
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