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Seerow
Duke


Joined: 03 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

codeGlaze wrote:
I just realized that Ability increases are baked into individual class progression. -___- fml


Well yes. They promised no dead levels, how else do you expect them to do that if not by bloating class tables with stuff that they should be getting in addition to actual abilities?
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Insomniac
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Joined: 25 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

codeGlaze wrote:
I just realized that Ability increases are baked into individual class progression. -___- fml


Half the reason to play a Fighter (not that you should in a d20 game, it doesn't cast spells, for fuck's sake) is that it gets bonuses to its ability scores out the ying yang. If you want, by mid level, your character is basically Captain America. Which kind of sucks when he could have been Magneto, but Captain America ain't that bad.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Insomniac wrote:
codeGlaze wrote:
I just realized that Ability increases are baked into individual class progression. -___- fml


Half the reason to play a Fighter (not that you should in a d20 game, it doesn't cast spells, for fuck's sake) is that it gets bonuses to its ability scores out the ying yang. If you want, by mid level, your character is basically Captain America. Which kind of sucks when he could have been Magneto, but Captain America ain't that bad.


Having +5 on all tasks is pretty short of being Captain America. You don't even beat Unnamed Peasant #3 three times in four. You straight lose an opposed test to someone with a +0 26.25% of the time.

-Frank
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erik
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

Having +5 on all tasks is pretty short of being Captain America. You don't even beat Unnamed Peasant #3 three times in four. You straight lose an opposed test to someone with a +0 26.25% of the time.


I play in a Lamentations of the Flame Princess campaign and it has bullshit similar to this since only fighters get increases to attack. It basically has bounded accuracy for non-fighters since nobody else gets bonuses to attack for leveling up, and the bonuses are really shitty (15 ability is a +1 bonus, 6 is a -1, and abilities are generated on 3d6; so about 90% of the curve is within +/-1).

My feeble magic user has successfully grappled a gorilla and a hulking brute with a great axe among others. It probably was about +5 difference in each of those cases which meant that my 7 strength wizard can totally put a gorilla in a full nelson one quarter of the time. Nobody remembers if you roll poorly, but by the end of combat your wimpy character can add the claim that you suplexed an elephant.

Great if you're running a comedic retro game. Poor if it is supposed to be a fantasy adventure.

God bless shitty mechanics.
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SubversionArts
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

erik wrote:
My feeble magic user has successfully grappled a gorilla and a hulking brute with a great axe among others. It probably was about +5 difference in each of those cases which meant that my 7 strength wizard can totally put a gorilla in a full nelson one quarter of the time. Nobody remembers if you roll poorly, but by the end of combat your wimpy character can add the claim that you suplexed an elephant.

Great if you're running a comedic retro game. Poor if it is supposed to be a fantasy adventure.

God bless shitty mechanics.


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Dean
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I believe I've found the most powerful thing I've ever found in 5E.

Meet Cliff Wizard, Glyphwizard



He will soon become the most powerful 5th edition character ever. Cliff starts as a mediocre member of a normal party alongside his Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue. For the first four levels of his career Cliff is just an everyday adventurer. He spends time in taverns, he clears out basements of giant rats, he finds a bag of holding. Then at 5th level Cliff gets the spell Glyph of Warding and everything changes. See Glyph of Warding is perhaps the most powerful spell in 5th edition, and with it and 500 dollars you can change the entire game.

Glyph of Warding is a spell that lets you store a spell to be cast if and when it is triggered correctly, this trigger can include spoken words, touching the Glyphed object, or merely being near the object itself. It works a lot like the Contingency spell. The drawback of the Glyph is if you ever move it more than 10 feet the spell will not be triggered. So itís traditionally thought of as a defensive spell for oneís base or home. But through the use of any extradimensional space ability like the Bag of Holding, the Handy Haversack, the Portable Hole, the Demiplane spell, the Cubic Gate, The Mirror of Life Trapping or to some degree just the Teleport spells the Glyph of Warding becomes game changingly powerful. In this example Iíll be assuming the use of a Bag of Holding because itís an item so common it starts appearing on Treasure Table A and itís suggested price if you buy one or track one down with the Xanathars rules for finding magic items is between 100 and 500 gold, between 1/3rd and 1/15th the cost of the Fighters plate mail.

If Cliff the Glyphwizard puts his Glyphs on objects already inside his bag of holding then the Glyphs will work as long as they donít move more than 10 feet from the bottom of his bag of holding, and since we wonít ever take them out of the bag they will never move so much as an inch before we trigger them. Cliff can now store his unused spell slots at the end of the night into Glyphs that he can use later allowing him a depth to his daily spell slots that nothing else in the game can compete with. The spells you store in Glyphs have a few limits, so you canít just throw every spell you might want later inside. They need to target a single creature or an area but the huge upside is that if the spell is a concentration spell it lasts its full length on the target without requiring any concentration slot. That means the Glyphwizard can start combat by putting his hand in his bag and triggering every buff effect he might want simultaneously which will then all last their full duration. The PHB says on page 190 that you can interact with one object and speak on your turn for free so triggering your glyphs wonít even cost you any actions. This all means that the Glyphwizard goes from being a 5th edition caster to a 3rd edition caster, where Wizards were flying stoneskinned invisible psychopaths layered with Contingencies, ahhh the good old days.

So Cliff can now begin a fight by popping his hand in his bag to instantly make himself Mirror Imageíd, Blinkíd, False Lifeíd and whatever else he would like in no time at all. More importantly he can also put himself instantly in a Leomunds Tiny Hut effect, which is a 10 foot invulnerable force bubble that his party can move in and out of as well as shoot from making them virtually invincibleto most opposition. Within the Leomunds Tiny Hut Cliff can still be a classic wizard and send fireballs all over the field even though you canít cast spells through it by using his glyph bag. Cliff can summon an unseen servant, have the servant carry the bag of holding out of the tiny hut and trigger, say, 5 Fireball spells at once. The servant will die but he died in the service of 40d6 damage so it was a good death, the wizards familiar may then fly out, retrieve the bag, and fly back into the Tiny Hut getting you ready to go next round. If the team only needs a little help but you still want to be safe you can always blast at the enemy the first round, trigger your hut at the end of it and spend the rest of the fight delivering shocking grasps and buff spells like Invisibility, Fly, and Protection from Energy through your familiars touch spell channeling as your familiar can freely fly in and out of the force bubble effect.

In between levels 6 and 9 things donít change drastically but the buffs you can layer do get noticeably better. You can now use your Glyphs to trigger great buff spells like Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, and Vampiric Touch.

At level 10 the Glyphwizard really upgrades. He gets more mobile which is good cause he was getting antsy fighting inside an immobile forcefield all the time. Now his big buff regimen is to cast Far Step, Blink, and Otilukes Resilient Sphere adding in Stoneskin and Greater Invisibility to taste. Otilukes is another invulnerable bubble but this time a mobile one and Far Step is a 1 minute duration spell that lets you teleport 60ft once a round as a bonus action. This means the Glyphwizard can open by casting spells at people in round one before triggering his buff regimen and invulnerable bubble. Next round he can teleport out of his bubble as a bonus action, cast spells at people, and have a 50% chance of invulnerability from blink and in the third round he can cast spells at people and teleport back into his invulnerable bubble and have a 100% chance of invulnerability. All in all he switches between definitely being invulnerable and having a 50/50 invulnerability every other round and when heís not in a sphere thatís when standards like Absorb Elements and Stoneskin and Greater Invisibility and Shield will all come into play making him now able to cast offensively and interact directly with the combat every round while being incredibly hard to affect himself.

At level 13 the Glyphwizard becomes capable of casting Simulacrum, a generally great spell, and Symbol, the big brother version of Glyph of Warding. With Symbol the Glyphwizard becomes capable of killing anything in the game. Any night he ends the day with a 7th level slot it goes right in the Glyph bag as a serious upgrade to his offensive potential. Now instead of triggering Fireballs he can trigger Symbolís, dealing 10d10 damage per symbol triggered to everything in a 60ft radius every single round for 10 minutes. I recommend storing these up and treating it like a sort of Thermal Detonator. Put a couple dozen in a bag and then walk around like youíre a nuclear power because you basically are. It also means if the Tarrasque wakes up or someone screws up the Rise of the Dragon Queen adventure you can go ahead and solve that problem for the world without leaving your apartment. Send your simulacrum off with a bomb bag to teleport onto whatever world ending terror is threatening the apocalypse, get in a an invulnerable bubble and trigger your bomb bag like youíve done all the times before. With 25 Symbols you should comfortably one round the Tarrasque and 23 will one round Tiamat the God of Dragons herself. Alternatively your Simulacrum could send a familiar or unseen servant to move forwards and blow itself up with the bomb bag while the Simulacrum stepped back and engaged in your normal combat tactics with whatever high priests (or whatever) are in the room to do cleanup on anything not caught in the instant death blast. If youíre gonna clean up a mess you might as well do it thoroughly, right? At the end of it all youíll have saved the world and youíll have done it without leaving your comfiest armchair.

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Voss
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think this works, at all.

Quote:
If the object is moved more than 10 feet from where you cast this spell, the glyph is broken, and the spell ends without being triggered


You're going to have to do a lot of contortions to prove that bags of holding, teleportation or anything else doesn't count for moving, rather than the sane reading of if the object is 10.0001 feet from where you cast glyph, it breaks and ends.

If they're on another plane they're pretty much definitionally more than 10' away from the casting spot.


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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sure, no GM will allow it, but there is all kinds of other motion that is conveniently ignored. If you're standing at the equator you're moving at roughly 1000 miles/hour rotationally and you're also moving orbitally around the sun and around the galaxy. So motion has to be relative to the object's original spot and it's not crazy to say that an object carried around inside a bag of holding isn't actually moving. Since it isn't on the same planet, it's moving LESS than a 'stationary object' on the earth's surface.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Glyph is originally enchanted inside the bag (or portable hole or Demiplane or etc), it's origin spot is inside the 2 by 4 foot space inside an open bag of holding. The Glyph'd object cannot move from 10 feet away from it's original location which it does not do because that's where you will enchant it.

While it would be wholly unnecessary to do so imagine if you would first cast Reduce Person, climb inside the bag then enchant the glyph while within it. The object begins in the extradimensional space and never moves from that space before during or after you trigger its spell, you merely have a movable portal to the extradimensional space it resides.

Doing a worse version of the trick is possible with just teleportation magic by 13th level where you keep the Glyph'd objects in a room with a teleport circle. When you decide you're in a fight big enough to deserve it you take some dirt off the ground as a free action, teleport circle away, trigger your multi-layered buff effects from your Glyphs and teleport back with a 100% chance of being on target because you have ground from the scene. You'll miss a single round of combat but you'll come back impossible to beat. That's a trick you can perform twice a day. At 15th level you'll get Demiplane allowing you to create a door to a stable extradimensional place and do it that way.

Basically in none of these circumstances is the Glyphed object ever going to move from wherever you originally enchant it. You'll either have a portable entrance to where the objects are or at the very least you can pop back to them to layer as many buffs as you like.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, although it immediately occurred to me that a GM could rule that the bag of holding moving around counted as moving the glyph around, there are other tricks that very definitely avoid this problem. It's intuitively sensible that moving a container that holds an object is the same as moving an object even if that's not how a bag of holding actually works, but intuition works in your favor when you're using teleport or dimension door.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

D&D also has detailed enough metaphysics to prove that moving a Bag of Holding or Portable hole or recasting Demiplane does not in fact move the contents contained within. Were the object held in the coterminous ethereal plane and being moved along with an anchored material plane object then it definitely would be moving albeit in a different plane, but effects like Demiplane or a Bag of Holding do not take place in coterminous planes. If you placed a creature with a compass or level inside a Portable hole and then folded the hole up and put it in your pocket the objects inside wouldn't pitch and yaw and tumble about. They exist on another plane entirely and the magic of the object or spell merely allows a connection to the place on that other plane. An object held still in a non coterminous extradimensional space is provably not moving by D&D's rules and metaphysics.
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Aryxbez
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Combining this with Skeleton Armies for 14th lv Necromancers who took over parts of a City (Game of Bones style). Does this mean you could have a Bag of Holding (maybe Demi-Plane would be easier for space) to spring out a huge army of skeleton Archers, beyond what you could control after the Time Period?

Which point if doing it for a mass battle, you'd probably expect them all to die anyway, keeping only the personal retinue ye could spend slots to maintain control of anyway.

Though I guess Skeleton Archers might also be pointless compared to having all these nukes?
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Cervantes
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For Skeleton Army, there's a minor thing:
Quote:
This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature.


Where can you find that many corpses or bones?
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Corpses are a byproduct of standard adventuring.
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Cervantes
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Spend the levels up until you get Animate Dead burying your victims. RP as if you're being respectful to the dead. Mark the locations with crosses/gravestones/whatever people do in your setting.

Then go back and dig those fuckers up. The only issue is that your DM might insist that they're Zombies because they didn't decompose enough but, honestly, if a DM doesn't want you to pull this shit they'll find a reason. Or just nerf Animate Dead.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Cervantes wrote:

Then go back and dig those fuckers up. The only issue is that your DM might insist that they're Zombies because they didn't decompose enough but, honestly, if a DM doesn't want you to pull this shit they'll find a reason. Or just nerf Animate Dead.


Get a big black cauldron. Do the same thing to the corpses that you'd do to any other animal where you want the meat and crap off the bone. It's even thematic.

Then store the bones in a convenient sepulcher, just as quite a few cultures did as their totally respectful way of 'burying' the dead. Paris and several Italian cities have quite a few of these.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aryxbez wrote:
Combining this with Skeleton Armies for 14th lv Necromancers who took over parts of a City (Game of Bones style). Does this mean you could have a Bag of Holding (maybe Demi-Plane would be easier for space) to spring out a huge army of skeleton Archers, beyond what you could control after the Time Period?


There's good news and bad news for doing necromancy with this Glyphwizard. The bad news is you can't really use Glyphs to summon minions. You might assume you can because the sixth sentence in the spell is explicitly referencing it being used to summon minions but that mostly doesn't work by RAW as the second sentence severely restricts it. The full text of Glyph is as follows with the restriction underlined.

Quote:
Spell Glyph. You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. if the spell has a target, it targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. if the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration.


The restriction in the second sentence means the only summoning spells that even arguably work are the ones that can target or conjure a single creature. Since the pile of bones Animate Dead targets is definitely neither a creature or an area you can't use it with a glyph. It is perhaps possible to make a bunch of Conjure Minor Elemental glyphs and bolster your numbers with them but honestly adding Mephits to the field one at a time at 200 gold apiece just isn't worth it to anybody.

The plus side for the Necromancer is the Glyphwizard requires nothing from you in terms of build so you can totally be a Necromancer or Illusionist or Diviner and also use these Glyph tricks. The 14th level Necromancer you mentioned works particularly well because at that level he gets the ability to Control Undead allowing him to permanently dominate one undead. Since your Symbol-nukes deal Necrotic damage get something immune like a Mummy/Ghost/Spectre or Wraith. Then your 14th level Necromancer Glyphwizard can hand your bomb to a Wraith or whatever and have it invisibly ghost through enemy cities or armies dealing $TEXAS damage in a massive AOE, killing everyone inside a 120ft sphere every round for 10 minutes straight.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How sad is it that with all that bounded accuracy nonsense, I'm not sure that cheating out a full complement of buffs and multitasking concentration is actually better than just making skeletons?

-Frank
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virgil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I'm soon to join a 5E campaign, mainly because the players are good people to hang and it's a chance for me to be a player. It's level 4, includes a Dragonborn Fighter, Halfling Rogue, & Half Elf Bard. As the party is lacking a wizard, I'm going to go ahead and make that. DM has also opted against using the feats option.

Just browsing, I'm looking at possibilities that I should check with the DM. They expressed pleasant interest at the idea of me going full throttle, so I'm going to keep that in mind. I'll create a backstory later and introduce with that, but I'm also going to be honest with a variety of 'tricks' to get a sense of how they will rule it.
    Animate Dead: They showed no concern about a horde of skeletons, even after I expressed my personal power level concern.
    Minor Conjuration: I need to see how this is interpreted. Can I supplant most material components? Can I 'copy' library books after only seeing the cover? Can I toss a buck of poison?
    Illusions: DM seem's tentatively amenable to illusions, but seemed to unconsciously imply sentient NPCs would be more canny than normal, so this is iffy territory.
Otherwise, I've got other choices to make. I've not gone through the book with this in mind, so while the choices are way less, they still exist. I could be a gnome for maximum Intelligence, a human for the feat, a dwarf for the +5 AC by wearing half-plate, examine possibilities for multiclassing (unlikely), or something else entirely.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
How sad is it that with all that bounded accuracy nonsense, I'm not sure that cheating out a full complement of buffs and multitasking concentration is actually better than just making skeletons?

-Frank


Especially since there's always that GM attention span tax; it's harder for people to call you a power gaming asshole when there's less fiddly bits bolted onto your build.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
How sad is it that with all that bounded accuracy nonsense, I'm not sure that cheating out a full complement of buffs and multitasking concentration is actually better than just making skeletons?

-Frank

Hah, literally the thing that made me start pursuing the whole Glyphwizard concept was to find a way to have your spell compliment AND a hundred skeletons. I wouldn't have even gotten onto the track of it if it required giving up skeletons, that's how great they are.

In practical application I think you would go less hard than this, the same way I think you would only walk around with a squad of skeletons rather than a hundred. Being able to have Flying AND Stoneskin on instead of just one and using the occasional glyph triple-fireball as a clever "trap" would keep your DM's mind from exploding and let you get by in actual gameplay. Like Animate Dead it's a spell that's very powerful to tap into but the further and further you turn that dial the fewer DM's are gonna have the talent to run a game for you.

I actually do believe that as long as you don't use Leomunds Tiny Hut (which the 5e community already kinda has a hate-on for) you would be seen as more of a rules abuser with skeletons than glyphs, because while a wizard teleporting in and out of an Otilukes Resilient sphere casting spells at people is crazy hard to beat at least the party would see you on the field fighting. People would occasionally see you hit with a breath attack rather than standing at the back of an unkillable horde bow-murdering everything
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virgil
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just to double-check, 5E hasn't changed the expectation of magic missile of something everyone considers powerful, but is actually mediocre at best? Because I'm looking at things, and it feels like the Bag of Tricks would be the best Uncommon magic item to choose (as opposed to some advocating Wand of MM).
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Dean
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A thing to know is that the 5e community is a bunch of dummies. I think both those items kinda suck honestly. Minions are good in general but summoning up to 3 low to mid-low CR animals that you can control with one bonus action per monster isn't gonna swing any encounter your way.

Obviously obviously I would say Bag of Holding. I mean obviously I would, but failing that Winged Boots seem well above the other options. A Pearl of Power would also be handy for caster longevity.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why would you use Winged Boots over a Broom of Flying?
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Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I wouldn't, good call Broom is the better flying option. I just didn't see it when scanning down uncommon's looking for how to fly.

The message is the same though, something that gives you real combat altering abilities rather than things that make you extremely slightly better in a generic way
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