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Ferret
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dean wrote:
Continuing to examine an optimized 5E Necromancer I’ve found a few more interesting things. In the thread about the 5E Pit Fiend Gnomeworks said this:
Gnomeworks wrote:
I would be curious to see if it is possible to build something that could solo this thing at a stupidly low level, comparatively. Maybe the level 6 necro can't deal with it, but perhaps it could at 12th? Or maybe some other absurd build can do it.

I can now say with confidence that a level 11 Necromancer can solo a Pit Fiend and will make the case that case that a level 6 Necromancer can too. Here's how you do it

**SNIP**

5E Necromancers make everyone else look stupid and can rule the world by level 5.


Just...bravo, sir. Bravo.
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Insomniac
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You assault the system at its fundamental assumption, Bounded Accuracy.

Anything that gets you more attacks but especially more bodies around to attack like Animate Dead, Animate Any Object, Summon spells is king in the system because the low AC for the monsters and Bounded Accuracy means your monsters will be able to hit.

That is why 100 skeletons with mundane weaponry literally kill Pit Fiends when 1000 skeletons wouldn't do jack SHIT to a 3.5 or Pathfinder Pit Fiend.

Any thing that makes an army, mass buffs an army is the bread and butter. Necromancers and Bards getting necromancy and animate object spells is the best way to crap on the system.

Other than that, you get your attack or AC off the Bounded Accuracy chart and you "Win" basically. Getting AC in the 30s and attacks into the 20s is trivial and basically means you cannot be hit and you cannot miss.

There isn't a lot of really primo, hyper abusive stuff going on like 3.5 or Pathfinder but the system is so readily open to being trivially broken on its Bounded Accuracy assumption that it overall looks like more of a broken game.

Straight out the gate with like, 5 core books out, we've got people trivially solo-ing top tier encounters.


Last edited by Insomniac on Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Insomniac wrote:
There isn't a lot of really primo, hyper abusive stuff going on like 3.5 or Pathfinder

Actually, there is a lot of primo, hyper abusive stuff (and it is all caster only). Core-to-core, 5e's spell list is at least as bad if not worse than 3.5's. Yes, bounded accuracy is a total fucking failure (and casters can crack it open entirely). Yes, lots of little people making little attacks are better than anything on anyone's character sheet (and casters are the only ones who can explicitly generate minions). Yes, hitpoint bloat is shitting on fighters even harder than in 3.5 (and casters still get to bypass hitpoints with save-or-get-fucked spells). And on top of all that, a bunch of 3.5 spells have been ported almost directly into 5e with less restrictions or roughly as is.

My favorite example is gate, because it's exactly as stupid as it was in 3.5 with less ambiguous wording; you can no-save pull someone anywhere you want, such as in front of a skeleton firing squad. "When you cast this spell, you can speak the name of a specific creature. if that creature is on a plane other than the one you are on, the portal opens in the named creature's immediate vicinity and draws the creature through it to the nearest unoccupied space on your side of the portal." But of course, there's way more. Magic jar has already been mentioned, and there's more of that shit all over the place.

This is the casteriest caster edition to have ever castered, hands down.


Last edited by DSMatticus on Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dean
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
This is the casteriest caster edition to have ever castered, hands down.

This is absolutely true and all of your reasons are exactly the reasons for it. Still I would say Insomniac is right that there is much less power to be had out of 5E than 3E. The inability to stack buffs cuts a huge amount of power out of players hands and 5E's insane plan of handing out dozens of redundant abilities also cuts down on good combo's.

But while I think there is less powerful, as some might choose to call it "abusive", stuff in 5E I think that's to the editions detriment. In 3E there was lots of powerful magical options like cleric archers or octopus druids but there was also mundane options like flask rogues, uberchargers and tripstars. There were many powerful options in 3E and while even the best tripstar fighter wasn't the equal of a wizard he could still feel much stronger than he was supposed to be. He could fight enemies and be aware that he was performing above the power curve. 5E doesn't really offer that option. You can be a Wizard or high level Cleric and obviate the entire game or you can be anyone else and be a total jackass that plinks small damage attacks onto hp bloated monsters. There really isn't a middle ground I've found where you can make strong characters that are notably above average but who are still playing the same game.
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Ghremdal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Its also causally broken, like the 3.5 druid. By doing things you are supposed to with your Necromancer, you are breaking the game. You dont need system mastery to break the game.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Irish wrote:
Out of curiosity, wasn't there some really retarded build for laser clerics?

I really doubt it. While it seems that I'm singularly focused on Wizards I've been doing charop for every class I just haven't been writing about it because nothing else is even close. The 5E Tiers are ironclad and they are-

1: Necromancer Wizards
2: Clerics or Bards that take the same tricks as Necromancers but do them worse
3: Any other full caster build
4: Any half caster build
5: Non-caster builds

And there are huge gaps between each tier. So while I have put some work into optimizing Barbarians it just doesn't matter because this is the most hardcore caster edition that's ever been written and there's nothing you can do with any build that will move them beyond that^ chart above. If I post the best Barbarian I could build and someone else takes an hour with the book for the first time and makes a Wizard they will make a better character than I have. It's actually extremely disheartening.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dean wrote:
Irish wrote:
Out of curiosity, wasn't there some really retarded build for laser clerics?

I really doubt it. While it seems that I'm singularly focused on Wizards I've been doing charop for every class I just haven't been writing about it because nothing else is even close. The 5E Tiers are ironclad and they are-

1: Necromancer Wizards
2: Clerics or Bards that take the same tricks as Necromancers but do them worse
3: Any other full caster build
4: Any half caster build
5: Non-caster builds

And there are huge gaps between each tier. So while I have put some work into optimizing Barbarians it just doesn't matter because this is the most hardcore caster edition that's ever been written and there's nothing you can do with any build that will move them beyond that^ chart above. If I post the best Barbarian I could build and someone else takes an hour with the book for the first time and makes a Wizard they will make a better character than I have. It's actually extremely disheartening.


Be fair. In many ways, Wizards who specialize in Enchantment or Conjuration are just as completely better than you as Necromancer Wizards are.

-Frank
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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

5E D&D is the most balanced edition ever because it's hard to get buffs, the fighter is the best at one-on-one melee combat, and the buffs you do get aren't very big. So there.
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Ravengm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dean wrote:
So while I have put some work into optimizing Barbarians it just doesn't matter because this is the most hardcore caster edition that's ever been written and there's nothing you can do with any build that will move them beyond that^ chart above. If I post the best Barbarian I could build and someone else takes an hour with the book for the first time and makes a Wizard they will make a better character than I have. It's actually extremely disheartening.


I feel like a large part of that is just the relative lack of options that are available to non-casters, what with the effective removal of feats and combat maneuver options.

It's great that they're stuffing class features into non-casters, but we all know how that works with the Monk when they suck.
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ishy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well non-casters can just use some money to hire lots of green tiny plastic soldiers, just like they can in any edition (a +1 sword is worth a lot of soldiers).

Though I guess most people don't do that, because they don't want to run around with an army in D&D.
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Sakuya Izayoi
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Usually if I want to play a DMF, its because I want to be Guts, not Mary Tzu. If I want to be Mary Tzu, I can load up Warcraft 3 and have it make rulings on army creation & management a lot faster than a human brain + dice could.

And I guess if you want to be Guts in 5e, you cast Magic Jar.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Everyone can hire bullshit if their DM allows them to and then spend forever arguing with their DM about how suicidally loyal their paid nobodies are, but the wizard doesn't have to do any of that because they get abilities that generate controlled minions, and on top of that can benefit from buying loyal followers better than any non-caster PC, because fighters get no social abilities at all and the spell list contains social bullshit for wizards to use.

Fighter armies are artifact sword territory. The DM can take pity on anyone, but the wizard is the only one who gets to write "I am awesome" on their character sheet just for existing.
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Dean
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

Be fair. In many ways, Wizards who specialize in Enchantment or Conjuration are just as completely better than you as Necromancer Wizards are.

I understand why you'd think that but it isn't true. Your logical assumption there is that any discipline based around the concept of gaining minions would be just as good at breaking the game. Allow me to show you why that's not true by listing every spell you could cast that could plausibly gain you reinforcements in some sense and those spell's durations. I will mark Necromancy spells with an (N).

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

You can see a pattern there. Basically everything that's not Necromancy is Concentration and you can't cast two concentration spells. As such "specializing" in Enchantment or Conjuration just means having lots of redundant spell slots that can't be used together. The only viable minion creators are Animate Dead, Create Undead, Finger of Death (which makes one permanent Zombie), and Geas. Geas is the only non Necromancy spell that can build an army but Geas is a 5th level spell for at most one minion per casting.

Necromancy, for whatever reason, is not required to operate under 5E's long term spell paradigm. So specializing in Necromancy and then grabbing one conjuration spell and Geas makes you the equal of specialist conjurers or enchanters in their field and vastly superior within your own.
ishy wrote:
Well non-casters can just use some money to hire lots of green tiny plastic soldiers, just like they can in any edition (a +1 sword is worth a lot of soldiers).

Your 3E is showing. First of all a +1 sword is something the game tells you repeatedly that there is likely no market for whatsoever. If your DM decides that his campaign allows magic item selling then the game says a +1 sword will sell for between 100 and 500 bucks. It can't be bought for that much, it can't be bought for anything, but it will sell for 100 to 500 bucks. To buy Plate Mail at 1500gp you will have to sell between 3 and 15 magic swords.

5E Does include a 2gp per day cost for mercenaries in it's services section so the cost of keeping an outfit of 100 mercenaries to stay around your character for a month would be 6000 gold. An 11th level Necromancer has that all the time but with troops that are completely loyal, free, require no DM permission of there being a nearby Mercenary company, tougher and stronger than NPC troops, and who replenish their own losses with the losses of their enemies.

Whatever another PC can have the Necromancer can have at least that +100 more troops which means the Necromancer still wins that fight and the day after he wins that fight he will raise the deceased from it as his new army and have lost nothing.
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Last edited by Dean on Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You're way underselling Charms if you don't even put them on the list. Also you're underselling the value of Conjuration's dumpster diving. One of the biggest sources of asymmetric power is getting yourself turned into a werewolf or vampire or some fucking thing. Dumpster diving through the Monster Manual can let you staple some pretty sweet templates onto yourself that Necromancy alone won't be able to do without DM pity (that you will not get because you are a fucking Necromancer in 5e).

-Frank
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ishy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
Everyone can hire bullshit if their DM allows them to and then spend forever arguing with their DM about how suicidally loyal their paid nobodies are, but the wizard doesn't have to do any of that because they get abilities that generate controlled minions, and on top of that can benefit from buying loyal followers better than any non-caster PC, because fighters get no social abilities at all and the spell list contains social bullshit for wizards to use.

Fighter armies are artifact sword territory. The DM can take pity on anyone, but the wizard is the only one who gets to write "I am awesome" on their character sheet just for existing.
You are completely wrong. The phb tells you, you can just walk into any typical town or city and hire a bunch of fools.
Unlike hiring common rabble, hiring a high level spell caster might require you to travel to a big city though.

And sure DM fiat can shut that shit down, just like the DM can shut anything at all down. Hell, the DM might just say, no evil PCs and suddenly you can't play a necromancer build around creating undead anymore.
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I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.


Last edited by ishy on Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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fectin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
You're way underselling Charms if you don't even put them on the list. Also you're underselling the value of Conjuration's dumpster diving.


Could you expand on those? I haven't gone through 5E, so I only know what's been said here, but I haven't seen either of those things come up here yet. Also, does conjuration dumpster diving actually get you abilities, or just bigger numbers?
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Dean
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ishy wrote:
You are completely wrong. The phb tells you, you can just walk into any typical town or city and hire a bunch of fools.

Quote those rules. Because what the PHB actually has is two numbers, one for Skilled labor and one for Unskilled Labor and a mention that the former can apply for mercenaries. It says nothing about what is available where. There's no market availability and community breakdowns like in the 3E DMG. If your argument is that the PHB listing the services for 1 man for 1 day as 2gp is an authoritative declaration allowing you to purchase a 1000 man army for the day for 2000 gold wherever you are then that's absurd.

Armies for sale outside the Inn you're sleeping at are obviously entirely within the realm of DM Fiat. They also don't change anything we're talking about here, as already discussed.

@Frank, yeah let me and Fectin know what you're seeing. I am putting little value on Charm because of 5E's nonexistent social system. As far as conjuration it's my belief that Conjure Fey or Conjure Woodland Beings will end up being one of the best spells in the edition once they inevitably publish a fey that can summon something on it's own. That will create an ability to flood the field in a single action. Until then Conjuration just seems good as the occasional grab. Certainly specializing into being an actual Enchanter or Conjurer seems totally outclassed by Necromancer, I don't think they're even close.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

P159, above the table.

"Mercenary soldiers paid to help the adventurers take on a hobgoblin army are hirelings, ...." Obviously the game doesn't actually support that because 2gp per attacker per day is nothing. 80gp for 40 attacks, yes please.

--

Damn it, I had to look this numbers shit up. It's not that bad.

Armour Class: Barbarian / battlemaster Fighter
20 Dex and 20 Con: AC = 20 (or AC 17-21 in armour for anyone, up to +3 Plate)
Defender Fighting Style: +1 AC (ONLY IN ARMOUR!, not the best style)
Shield: +2 AC, up to +5 AC as Magical item.
Warforged Race: +1 AC (who, where? Oh, websplat)

Defender Weapon: +3 AC Magical item.
Ring of Protection: +1 AC, Magical item.
Cloak of Protection +1 AC, Magical item.

Shield of Faith: +2 AC, Cleric1, Concentration, 10 min.
Haste: +2 AC, Wizard3, Concentration, 1 min.

Combat Inspiration: +1d6 AC once, valour Bard dice, 1/PC + 1/round (Cha/day), up to +1d12.
Evasive Footwork: +1d8 AC while in motion, Fighter dice, 4/day+, up to +1d12. (junk)

Blessing of Protection: +1 AC as a divine reward from a god (so hell no you don't).


Realistically, AC 22 early, 28 with a couple +3's. 30's easy enough for one PC if they're getting boned. Soon makes Warforged a wasted choice.

Needs a bunch of magic items to get clear of high level attacks, otherwise you're sucking up a lot of limited-use stuff that's probably got better things to do. The 23+ range is pretty important to keep pushing on as things start hitting you on a 19 again.

--

To hit Armour Class 0: Devotion Paladin/Battlemaster Fighter
Dexterity 20: +5 to Hit
Proficiency Bonus: +2 to Hit, up to +6.
Archery Combat Style: +2 to Hit.

Bow +3: +3 to Hit, Magical Item.
Arrow +3: +3 to Hit, Magical Item, consumable.
Ioun Stone of Mastery: +1 to Hit, Magical Item.

Channel Divinity: +Cha (5) to Hit, Devotion Paladin action!, 1/rest for 1 min.
Bless: +1d4 to Hit (and saves), Cleric1, Concentration (3 targets), up to 1 min.
Channel Divinity: +10 to Hit, war Cleric L6, reaction, 1/rest, up to 3/rest.

Battle Inspiration: +1d6 to Hit, any Bard dice, 1/PC + 1/round (Cha/day), up to +1d12.
Precision Attack: +1d8 to Hit, Fighter dice, 4/day + 1/combat, up to +1d12.
Bend Luck: +1d4 to Hit, 2 wild Sorcerer points, reaction.

Epic Boon: Peerless Aim: +20 to Hit, 1/rest.
Epic Boon: Boon of Luck: +1d10 to Hit (or other things, reaction to others), 1/rest.


So no magic +13, or +18 by dropping an action, plus magic to +22, consumable to +25. Bard dice rattle off the easiest extras. Attack is hitting everything all the time without bothering to switch on your +Cha to hit or getting advantage. With a Magic bow and any prep you're normally wasting any further assistance from other PCs.

That Channel Divinity thing for war Clerics is somewhat useful for someone with a SoD attack roll at disadvantage or something, it's wasted otherwise.

--

I think bounded accuracy is intact. Most of the bonuses seem to be useful in various circumstances but impossible to sustain, the items are powerful, you can function without them (but you shouldn't). Focusing on getting your AC to the tipping point where things need 20 to hit is going to be a huge boon to survival (but you still need a bunch of hit points against strait-damage attacks), attack options should focus on big damage and increased comparative rate of attacks.

Which is to say, use ranged weapons and kite every damn thing forever, but you'll probably be left wandering waist-deep in the sewers against swimmers to cock-block that. Modules are constantly turning everything into closet troll encounters. So, yeah.

It looks like action-cost stuff is terrible (reaction or GTFO, even bonus actions are fairly valuable), buffs are wasted unless saving the weak or blocking out a chokepoint. A lot of classes become vastly better on max Dex, and 22 Dex is going to help after a wish. Magic items are more important on AC and saves than attacks, there's more to collect to get you over the hump.

Certainly benefits to team play for a sub-Necromancer game.

--


Broken? You seem to need a tank to block closet trolls that are blocking your archer armies, and that tank can be only hit on a 20 without much effort or any DM support. The problem PCs are dropping to seems to be little 30' wide and 90' long disadvantage traps, where you get swarmed, the non-tanks end up in melee, and no one can run or attack properly.

Again, the solution would seem to be filling all available spaces with Skeletons.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I pointed a friend who's an RPG virgin to this topic, can people make some newbie-friendly suggestions for him to consider? Looks like he's playing a High Elf Bard with Artisan's Guild background.
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In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

5e bards are basically armored wizard dropouts. You are a full caster with a bunch of enchantment/illusion save-or-get-fucked spells and you get to wear light armor. Bardic inspiration is mostly a fucking joke. Until level 5, you get one use per point of charisma modifier per day (i.e. 3), and each use gives someone +1d6 (3.5) to a single roll. At level 10, you get to add two spells from any class to your spell list (which will be animate dead and something else).

The big choice you have to make is between the College of Lore and the College of Valor.

College of Lore benefits:
1) You get animate dead at level 6 instead of level 10.
2) That's it. The rest is bullshit.

College of Valor benefits:
1) Starting at level 3, you can wear medium armor, use a shield, and have proficiency in martial weapons. This is a pretty big AC boost.
2) You get an extra attack. Past level 3, trying to murder things with damage is a sucker's game, but a second attack does double your DPR when it comes to clean up.
3) That's it. The rest is bullshit.

The correct choice is obviously to get animate dead as soon as possible, even if you end up sandbagging and only hauling around a few skeletons to avoid pissing off your DM, but if you want to go college of valor what the hell why not.

Edit: I'm not sure if any of that was newbie friendly. Oops.


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Prak
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

An explanation for the reasoning may be helpful. Like why Animate Dead is such an obvious choice.
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Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Ghremdal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Because bounded fucking accuracy the game becomes Skeletons and Skullfuckery. From level 5 onwards you can have enough skeletons to replace two martial classes in terms of combat utility and you still get all your spells.

There are no CR=character level monsters that survive 1 round of shooting from the skeletons a necromancer can bring along (aside those very few that are immune to non magic weapons).

Or if you can bullshit the GM into allowing followers/mercenaries, for the same effect.


Last edited by Ghremdal on Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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OgreBattle
King


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When does Animate Object for shuriken minions come online?
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Dean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

9th level Animate Objects comes online.

Animate Dead is powerful because every other spell lasts for one encounter and animate dead lasts for 24 hours. So if you use a spell slot on Fireball or Summon Monster it will only hurt the orcs in that fight, but if you use spell slots on animate dead those spell slots are applied to everyone you fight for 24 hours. This is particularly nice because it can let you bring spell slots from yesterday into today if you cast your spells before your sleep.

Also the survey is so sad. The Ranger is hot garbage so I'm glad they identified that but everything else reads like undiluted corporate bullshit. I actually got into D&D from Warhammer around 2001 and I remember the single defining thing that made me decide to move into the hobby was that D&D felt like a company run by people rather than GW which feels like it's run by a team of lawyerbots who eat only money. The sense of squeezing everything in their grasp for profits didn't exist in D&D. They gave out their books for free online for fucks sake. D&D made many hundreds of dollars on me over the years because to teenage me they seemed cool instead of corporate and this sort of "Our survey has revealed that everything is better than ever!" bullshit is an example of a total about face made by the company from 4E onward.
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Last edited by Dean on Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I just realized that Ability increases are baked into individual class progression. -___- fml
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