Fighter Thread [Tome]

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:47 am

Found this old thread. In the relatively recent, What are the 'core 11' Tome PHB classes? thread, some posters included the fighter in their 'core' classes whereas others explicitly did not.

A potential player is interested in Tome Fighter, though I highly suspect it's only because he likes the word 'Fighter' (like all my meatspace friends, he knows jack shit about D&D and hasn't actually read the class).

What's your opinion on the Tome Fighter? Do you allow them in your games?

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:39 pm

I don't play Tome games, so I don't include the Tome Fighter.

I would say it solves the problem it was designed to solve rather well, that being to let a VAH remain viable in D&D combat throughout mid and high levels, but there are elements of that solution which I don't like mechanically and VAH simply shouldn't be something you can be for 20 levels in D&D, so as a class I think it leaves something to be desired. My favorite Races of War classes are the Monk and the Knight, which are mechanically elegant, versatile without being bland and do incorporate the conceptual growth that the fighter lacks. (Albeit the Knight does so by directing you to tailor-made PRCs... but there's no shame in that.)

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:57 pm

Most of the Races of War stuff and classes have the problem that even moderately competent optimization completely destroys all numeric challenges. Basically, they get to be Uber chargers, but without charging, and they can do it with things like bows and shit too. This means that every fight needs to be arbitrarily made to handicap any Races of War characters, since if they can full attack they can easily do damage equal to the HP of any enemy you could possibly use +50-200, and if using Whirlwind, then can run through a large group of them doing less than that, but still you can't use large collections of weak characters.

Also none of them can do fuck all anything outside of combat to actually justify their inclusion in the game, so you still have the dumbass fighter bullshit where someone completely ignores half the game, but now they are so good that everyone can tell the other half of the game is their bitch and everything done to stop them from single handedly winning every fight is a contrivance.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:05 pm

Most of it, Kaelik?

I will take your word for it if you say "yes", since I haven't used them very much and never in a game with Tome feats, but on paper I would have guessed that applied to the Barbarian, Fighter and Samurai moreso than the others. The Monk and Thief-Acrobat didn't seem to have that level of offensive output, while the Knight and Assassin have it, but with tactical limitations that prevent them from becoming unstoppable juggernauts as you describe.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:09 pm

Didn't the Tome FIghter have craft magical item or somesuch. I know that's only part of the non-combat game but at least it gives something.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:49 pm

Kaelik said "Races of War", not any of the other books, so it wasn't necessarily a comment on the monk, assassin, etc. The Knight is the only base class you could contend, and it's probably the weakest of the four.

Other classes like the ToV soldier are also similar.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:05 pm

Yeah, my mistake. I forgot that RoW and the Dungeonomicon were separate documents.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:05 pm

Problem Solver can get an insane amount of versatility (a lot of which can help out of combat as well) if you use it with 'non-core' homebrew Combat feats such as Divine Agent for any Cleric Domain power that your deity covers, Scaling Martial Study for a bunch of maneuvers from two disciplines (with extra homebrew maneuvers and disciplines to choose from) and probably a bunch of other stuff if I keep looking (there're some combat feats that give you Avatar style bending, and some that let you decide to be descended from dragons, earth elementals, fiends, celestials, etc. for a number of turns equal to your BAB once an hour, which I'm pretty sure any DM will only allow one of, but I just found it funny as it'd be legit by RAW since those don't actually have prerequisites and don't mention being mutually exclusive). However, this adds even more to the Fighter's combat abilities...

I'll probably just ask my player to choose Monk, Soldier, or Soulborn or something. Though it doesn't improve out of combat utility, how's this for a quick and dirty nerf:
-Any two Good Saves
-Bonus Combat Feats must be non scaling feats
-Problem Solver limited to non scaling fighter bonus feats

To add a tiny bit of non combat utility without making skillmonkeys jealous
-Problem Solver may also be used for scaling Skill feats, though your ranks are considered to be 5 points lower than they actually are for gaining benefits from the feat through this method, i.e. you'd need 5 ranks in something to gain the zero level benefit, 9 ranks for the 4 level benefit, etc.)

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:12 pm

I didn't use a [Tome] Fighter, but by its class description, it mentions its best used to those that have fine understanding of the game to best use its abilities. [Tome] Soulborn is insanely powerful, and easily auto-pilots on Wizard-level, though ye might need to point out which RNG-powers the player should take (haste, Blink, Super-speed, Flight, etc).

I ran a Wizard-level Tome Game, Barbarian, Knight, Marshall, Soulborn, and Wizard (using SoD's suggested byFvcking kill spells thread). Knight & Barbarian were the weakest, and Soulborn the strongest (its player was also disruptive to the game). I didn't have any problems really, I was able to run threats on EL+2 or CR creature of their level for each PC easily enough. Didn't really seem like they dominated combat, especially not like the Soulborn did.

Soulborn is an awesome class and I like it, but it's definitely a class meant for Wizard-level games.

infected slut princess · Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:15 am

radthemad4 wrote:Problem Solver can get an insane amount of versatility (a lot of which can help out of combat as well) if you use it with 'non-core' homebrew Combat feats such as Divine Agent for any Cleric Domain power that your deity covers, Scaling Martial Study for a bunch of maneuvers from two disciplines (with extra homebrew maneuvers and disciplines to choose from) and probably a bunch of other stuff if I keep looking (there're some combat feats that give you Avatar style bending, and some that let you decide to be descended from dragons, earth elementals, fiends, celestials, etc. for a number of turns equal to your BAB once an hour, which I'm pretty sure any DM will only allow one of, but I just found it funny as it'd be legit by RAW since those don't actually have prerequisites and don't mention being mutually exclusive). However, this adds even more to the Fighter's combat abilities...

I'll probably just ask my player to choose Monk, Soldier, or Soulborn or something. Though it doesn't improve out of combat utility, how's this for a quick and dirty nerf:
-Any two Good Saves
-Bonus Combat Feats must be non scaling feats
-Problem Solver limited to non scaling fighter bonus feats

Ok radthemad4, I appreciate your sincerity, but there are some problems with your suggestions.

First of all, any DM who opens the door to Problem Solver giving access to any random homebrew Combat or Fighter feat that some random dude put on a D&D wiki somewhere is totally asking for his game to be destroyed. Problem Solver specifically mentions [Combat] Feats, which in context are obviously an RoW thing, and anything beyond that you should be really careful.

Secondly, you nerfs are pretty troubling. I'll grant that you could drop the good Reflex save or something and it probably wouldn't matter that much and it would still "feel" ok. But if you are going to take the Tome Fighter and require that Problem Solver apply only to non-scaling Fighter bonus feats (like what, Weapon Focus?) and Bonus Combat Feats must be non-scaling (like what, Weapon Focus?), you might as well just take the Tome Fighter and throw it in the garbage, because at that point you really aren't using teh Tome Fighter. Back to square one.

The only appropriate nerf is to disallow Blitz +1 with ranged attacks. That's just a reasonable thing to do, because Blitzing ranged attacks is fucking retarded.

I've seen a lot of people say optimized Tome Barbarians and Fighters and whatnot are "too powerful" for the game, but one could argue that optimized Wizards and Clerics are "too powerful" for the game also. But here's the thing -- most regular johnny D&D players are complete idiots. They don't know jack about optimizing. The Tome classes just let them play the concept they want without lashing together a pile of weird options from three dozen sourcebooks. At lower to mid levels, which is where most real games take place, that works just ok. At higher levels, teh game becomes retarded -- but that's not a uniquely Tome problem.

Or maybe not, I don't know. For my own experience, I've run games for low-to-mid-level RoW classes , and it was fine -- but the players were regular johnnys lacking supreme optimization skillz.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:25 am

Regularguy · Post by **Regularguy** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:59 am

Kaelik wrote:Also none of them can do fuck all anything outside of combat to actually justify their inclusion in the game

That's a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?

Even leaving aside the ability to forge magical gear, the bonus feats (plus Problem Solver) set the Tome Fighter to always be actively searching, easy as always taking 10, with Listen/Spot/Search undertakings, as a guy who can see the invisible and hear the incorporeal; and Aid Another's skill checks as a free action, for double the usual benefit; and, I dunno, play Juggernaut to break down doors or whatever, with the strength he uses to play pack mule -- that's all stuff most folks maybe couldn't afford, and wouldn't get as much out of without his BAB -- and while it's maybe not much, add in that as long as he doesn't use it on his last move in a fight, Combat Focus probably persists long enough for a useful reroll (or Take 20) on a post-combat skill check.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:32 am

Tome Fighter is not a class for beginners, because all the stuff they have available that may or may not apply is just going to trip them up. I'm not really a fan of the class, and would just recommend they play a Barbarian, Samurai, Knight or Soulborn (note: if they choose the right powers, this will really have its way with the RNG).

AndreiChekov · Post by **AndreiChekov** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:54 am

I had a game with a medium experienced player being a fighter. And, after a few sessions when he hit level 3, where the game just boggd down because of the any feat thing, I told him to prepare 3 feats each morning and pick from those. It went well enough after that.
]

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:56 am

Regularguy wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Also none of them can do fuck all anything outside of combat to actually justify their inclusion in the game
That's a bit of an overstatement, isn't it?

Even leaving aside the ability to forge magical gear, the bonus feats (plus Problem Solver) set the Tome Fighter to always be actively searching, easy as always taking 10, with Listen/Spot/Search undertakings, as a guy who can see the invisible and hear the incorporeal; and Aid Another's skill checks as a free action, for double the usual benefit; and, I dunno, play Juggernaut to break down doors or whatever, with the strength he uses to play pack mule -- that's all stuff most folks maybe couldn't afford, and wouldn't get as much out of without his BAB -- and while it's maybe not much, add in that as long as he doesn't use it on his last move in a fight, Combat Focus probably persists long enough for a useful reroll (or Take 20) on a post-combat skill check.

I mean, no? Like, look at your list:

1) Make magic items. Who cares? You can also find magic items or pay someone else to make them for you. That isn't something to do outside of combat, like teleport or scry or build a castle, that is something to declare your character does with no real effect.

2) Perception/take 20 on a skill. Who cares? Fighter skills amount to nothing particularly useful outside of combat. taking 20 on them as an "out of combat" ability is even less impressive, because it means you can seriously only point to things you can now do that are time sensitive and required a roll of 13+ as things even remotely to take credit for.

Perception on the other hand, mostly comes down to knowing you are in combat, which is incredibly non impressive. The one actually not combat thing you can do, always searching, is equally as available to everyone else with a feat.

3) Break things... Who cares? Yes, you can break things with your strength, but frankly, you can break things with your sword by power attacking, and that was never a very good selling point for the 3e fighter's out of combat utility. If that counts for anything at all, then the goddam 3.5 Fighter 20 does it as well as the Tome fighter.

That is a tremendously pathetic list of out of combat contributions.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:21 am

How about a 'sorcerer' version of the Tome Fighter? And is the Tome of Prowess any good for noncombat utility expansion?

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Prowes ... rcebook%29

Regularguy · Post by **Regularguy** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:30 am

Kaelik wrote:That is a tremendously pathetic list of out of combat contributions.

You skipped over free-action Aid Another for double the bonus.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:34 am

I can't actually tell is that's a joke or not.

I really hope it is.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:59 pm

I can recount the tale of our first ever 3e campaign - a Tome campaign running through a modified Rise of the Runelords. We had a Tome Fighter/Samurai, a Druid, a Jester, a Barbarian and a modified Mystic Theurge.

At the early levels things were pretty straightforward. The fighters fought and the wizards wizarded and a good time was had by all. I jazzed up a few of the encounters as the party was pretty efficient at dealing with threats. Combat Sense was really good, so good that the Barbarian ended up taking a 1-level dip into Fighter to get it. By level 6 I noticed the party were starting to outstrip even the jazzed up versions of encounters I was running. At this point I decided to underlevel the party in addition to boosting some of the weaker encounters - we were doing level ups per adventure rather than using xp so this was pretty easy. I think they were a level behind from 6-10 and 2 behind until the end. This kept them from roflstomping the enemies pretty nicely, although once the party got to level 13-14 they were starting to pull away again.

As regards party balance, early on the warriors were easily on par or better than the casters. This continued right through the campaign during combats, with the two melee characters able to take down pretty much any number of foes using the combination of Whirlwind and Horde Breaker to chain through groups of enemies. At level 9-10 they took on a Giant army using hit-and-run tactics pretty effectively. The characters each had their own schtick which was cool, the Barbarian just being goddamn invincible and the Fighter/Samurai dealing $TEXAS damage to anything they could reach. Tactics such as "Aerial Barbarian Bombardment" (A flying mage dropping the Barbarian on groups of enemies from a great height) or the Jester using Baleful Transposition to teleport enemies into Full-Attack range of the Fighter/Samurai were popular, as the killing potential of the melee characters was so great that helping them was the best use of the parties magic resources.

Once the party got to level 10 however some of the cracks started to show. The Barbarian's saves had got so high that they basically couldn't fail a level appropriate save, which invalidated a bunch enemies. The Fighter/Samurai could do enough damage to kill enemies way outside their CR range if they got the first action. Also the lack of any real high level non-combat abilities started to become apparent. After a series of adventures during which the party had to figure out ways to get to Hell and negotiate for a key that kills any mortal that touches it, get to and survive the Elemental Plane of Fire to bargain with the Lord of Volcanoes for information, and then cross the continent several times in quick succession the warriors were left twiddling their thumbs on more than one occasion whilst the casters puzzled out how to solve these kind of high level problems.

Overall the campaign was fun and I would play a Tome game again, but I'd either cap the game at level 10 or generate a bunch of Prestige Classes for them to take at level 10 and find some way to cut down on the bonus accumulation.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:35 am

OgreBattle wrote:How about a 'sorcerer' version of the Tome Fighter?

If you mean a sorcerer with the magic equivalent of problem solver, you may be looking for this one. If you mean something else, you'd have to explain yourself.

OgreBattle wrote: And is the Tome of Prowess any good for noncombat utility expansion?

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Prowes ... rcebook%29

Since no one seems interested in plugging my work for me...

That was certainly the intent, even with all of the combat usable stuff in there. Skills are the utility subsystem for non-casters, so it should scale properly (or they should get actual class features, but I didn't feel like doing that). I think it was a reasonable success in that respect, and general feedback has been along the same lines. There are some non-combat spell effects that don't get dealt with though, generally because of a lack of skill analogue.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:36 am

TarkisFlux wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:How about a 'sorcerer' version of the Tome Fighter?
If you mean a sorcerer with the magic equivalent of problem solver, you may be looking for this one. If you mean something else, you'd have to explain yourself.

OgreBattle wrote: And is the Tome of Prowess any good for noncombat utility expansion?

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Prowes ... rcebook%29
Since no one seems interested in plugging my work for me...

That was certainly the intent, even with all of the combat usable stuff in there. Skills are the utility subsystem for non-casters, so it should scale properly (or they should get actual class features, but I didn't feel like doing that). I think it was a reasonable success in that respect, and general feedback has been along the same lines. There are some non-combat spell effects that don't get dealt with though, generally because of a lack of skill analogue.

Tarkis did a great job packing the ToP with a lot of great stuff.
The problem I ran into was content overwhelm. I love my group... but they can be a little obtuse when presented with "lots of new stuff" to learn/remember.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:24 am

Yeah, I'm banning the Tome Fighter. I don't think it'll be a great loss and whatever schtick the guy is going for (haven't talked to him about it for a while and no one in my group understands D&D well enough to make a character if I'm not walking them through it) can probably be done with something else.

I really liked the parts of the ToP that I went through (e.g. Transformation). The main reason I'm not using it is that I almost entirely use existing statblocks (though I might tweak them slightly) for monsters and NPCs (and sometimes for PCs when someone cancels at the last minute and we instead decide to have a one off random events session) when MCing.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:25 pm

TarkisFlux wrote: If you mean a sorcerer with the magic equivalent of problem solver, you may be looking for this one. If you mean something else, you'd have to explain yourself.

I mean instead of having problem solver you just one have one more bonus combat feat so there's less shuffling around memorizing new things.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:09 pm

If Tome is only good for 10 levels, then why am I playing it over 3.5E D&D that has the special rule of 'non-casters get DM pity artifact'?

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:02 pm

OgreBattle wrote:
TarkisFlux wrote: If you mean a sorcerer with the magic equivalent of problem solver, you may be looking for this one. If you mean something else, you'd have to explain yourself.
I mean instead of having problem solver you just one have one more bonus combat feat so there's less shuffling around memorizing new things.

It wouldn't be bad, but it's kind of weird to replace a short term versatility ability with yet another static bonus feat. They're already getting 10 on top of normal progression, 11 just isn't a big deal. But you do give up a lot of versatility by making the change. You'd be better off rewriting the ability such that they can just retrain <some number up to ALL> of their combat feats during downtime. This doesn't solve the complexity problem at all, but it does move them out of combat time so it hurts less.