Linear Warriors/Quadratic Wizards > LW/LW in D&D.

[Orion]

Just pretend every other word in this sentence is a link to a published D&D adventure in which the fate of the world (or a huge chunk of it) hangs in the balance. That's only 17; I'm pretty sure I can come up with that many without any real effort.

Oh, I'm aware that those modules exist, I just don't personally know anyone who has ever played any of them. Actually, that's not true -- we did play bastion of unborn souls once. It was stupid and worked poorly.

[DSMatticus]

Just pretend every other word in this sentence is a link to a published D&D adventure in which the fate of the world (or a huge chunk of it) hangs in the balance. That's only 17; I'm pretty sure I can come up with that many without any real effort.

Oh, I'm aware that those modules exist, I just don't personally know anyone who has ever played any of them. Actually, that's not true -- we did play bastion of unborn souls once. It was stupid and worked poorly.

"Stupid and works poorly" is published modules in a nutshell; it's not really specific to any particular variety. Shit like PF adventure paths actually do pretty well.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, let me ask you this, DSMatticus: how much of your ambivalence towards a detailed mass combat simulator is based on narrative conceit and how much of it is based on the fact that, well, such systems have sucked so much anus that writers have been continually forced to write their way around it?

Don't get me wrong; in the end D&D lives and dies on the strength of its squad-based simulator. Yet you'll note that people have wanted D&D to also support a SimCity minigame and an ASoFaI-court simulator. Even 4E D&D of all places suggested these would form the backbone of paragon adventures in the DMG2. But if you go by genre fiction, mass combat is nonetheless more common than either of those two things.

I suppose that you can make the (frankly pretty credible) argument that getting a good mass combat engine up and running takes more space than SimCity or ASoFaI. And for most games that didn't explicitly revolve around warfare, I'd agree. There's really no reason to do mass combat in Star Trek, Justice League, Judge Dredd, or World of Darkness. However, D&D is in a unique position as far as TTRPGs go; it sits in that weird range between Leviathan and personal PC badassery deciding major conflicts.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

An advantage I see in Victory Point MTP over the bog standard MTP is that it lets you value different actions differently. You can give fewer VPs to "I give a rousing speech" than, say, "I train a murder of dire ravens to drop boulders on their superior numbers, and feast on them if they can be mopped up." In my experience, pure MTP leads to inspiring speech type movespam.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Regarding ten-thousand unit stacks, or whatever:

I think a useful first step would be to make a table to allow the rolling of a "small" number of dice to generate results with similar results to rolling a "large" number of dice.

e.g., if you were doing "1d20 all the way", you might make a table that looks something like this for 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, and 1,000,000 unit stacks:

roll \ TN	1	2	3	...
1	#hits	#hits	#hits	...
2	#hits	#hits	#hits	...
3	#hits	#hits	#hits	...
...

And what you would do to resolve an attack by the stack is this:

1. Figure out how many attacks can get to the target unit, per some standard rules. Let's say it's "about 12,000"
2. Divide that up into a convenient number of substacks. In our example, that would be 1x 10,000 and 2x 1,000[/i
3. Figure out what each tiny man would need to roll to hit the target. Let's say it's "11"
4. For each substack, roll 1d20 on the appropriate table. Each result is a number of tiny men that have hit the target. Let's say it's a perfectly average result of 1x 5,000 and 2x 500
5. Add up the number of tiny men that hit their target. In our example, that's 6,000
6. If the number of hits is large (probably >10 or something), the target suffers "average damage" from that many hits. Otherwise, roll.

[Orion]

Frank is right when he says that a system which handles 500 should also handle 10,000 without too much difficulty. If a mass combat engine is going to exist, I endorse the exponential scaling plan. (I almost said existential scaling, for some reason) However, I'm most interested in getting an engine going that can handle fights with 40 participants. I'm not convinced that that system can or should scale to even 1,000.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Here is the table I was talking about for a 10-man stack:

10d20 vs TN:

roll \ TN	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
1	10	8	7	6	5	5	4	3	3	2	2	2	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0
2	10	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	1	0	0	0	0
3	10	9	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	1	0	0	0
4	10	9	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	0	0	0
5	10	9	8	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	1	0	0
6	10	9	9	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	0	0
7	10	9	9	8	8	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	0	0
8	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	1	0
9	10	10	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	0
10	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1	0
11	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	2	2	1	1	0
12	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	0
13	10	10	9	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	4	4	3	3	2	2	1	1
14	10	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	2	2	1	1
15	10	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	1	1
16	10	10	10	9	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	3	3	2	2	1
17	10	10	10	10	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	4	3	3	2	1
18	10	10	10	10	9	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	3	3	2	1
19	10	10	10	10	10	9	9	9	8	8	7	7	6	6	5	5	4	3	3	2
20	10	10	10	10	10	10	10	9	9	8	8	8	7	7	6	5	5	4	3	2

EDIT: This was made using this website: http://www.unseelie.org/cgi-bin/dicepo.cgi

[ACOS]

Alright, I've decided that when dealing with formations and such (i.e., mass units), "to hit" rolls shouldn't even be a thing. What you're looking for is a scaled-up, heavily modified mob template (which, itself, is really just a modified swarm; but I digress). Most units will be doing AoE damage.
Player: (selects target) "I'm in range"
DM: "yes, roll damage"
So when your cavalry regiment charges, everything operating at the squad level just gets trampled; and larger units take damage and/or brace and return damage.
For archery and other ranged units, you may or may not want to throw in target->impact area accuracy for how well the rangefinder did his job or whatever.
Obviously it's going to be more complex than that; but that's the basic idea.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Here's the table for 100d20: (give or take 1)

100d20 vs TN:

roll \ TN	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
1	100	90	84	78	72	66	61	56	50	45	40	35	31	26	21	17	12	8	5	1
2	100	92	86	80	74	69	63	58	53	48	43	38	33	28	23	19	14	10	6	2
3	100	92	87	81	75	70	65	59	54	49	44	39	34	30	25	20	15	11	7	3
4	100	93	87	82	76	71	66	61	55	50	45	40	35	31	26	21	16	12	7	3
5	100	93	88	82	77	72	67	61	56	51	46	41	36	31	27	22	17	12	8	3
6	100	94	88	83	78	72	67	62	57	52	47	42	37	32	27	22	18	13	8	4
7	100	94	89	83	78	73	68	63	58	53	48	43	38	33	28	23	18	13	9	4
8	100	94	89	84	79	74	69	64	58	53	48	43	38	33	28	24	19	14	9	4
9	100	95	90	84	79	74	69	64	59	54	49	44	39	34	29	24	19	14	9	4
10	100	95	90	85	80	75	70	65	60	55	50	45	40	35	30	25	20	15	10	5
11	100	95	90	85	80	75	70	65	60	55	50	45	40	35	30	25	20	15	10	5
12	100	96	91	86	81	76	71	66	61	56	51	46	41	36	31	26	21	16	10	5
13	100	96	91	86	81	76	72	67	62	57	52	47	42	36	31	26	21	16	11	6
14	100	96	91	87	82	77	72	67	62	57	52	47	42	37	32	27	22	17	11	6
15	100	96	92	87	82	78	73	68	63	58	53	48	43	38	33	28	22	17	12	6
16	100	97	92	88	83	78	73	69	64	59	54	49	44	39	33	28	23	18	12	7
17	100	97	93	88	84	79	74	69	65	60	55	50	45	39	34	29	24	18	13	7
18	100	97	93	89	85	80	75	70	66	61	56	51	46	41	35	30	25	19	13	8
19	100	98	94	90	86	81	77	72	67	62	57	52	47	42	37	31	26	20	14	8
20	100	99	95	92	88	83	79	74	69	65	60	55	50	44	39	34	28	22	16	10

As you can see, around here is when we stop caring what you roll.

EDIT: which is fortunate, because that site doesn't handle 1000d20

EDIT 2: Oh wait, it's easier to just have a spreadsheet and do

Code: Select all

=BINOM.INV([b][Number of dice][/b],(21-[b][Target Number][/b])/20,([b][Roll][/b]-0.5)/20)

1000d20 vs TN:

roll \ TN	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20
1	1000	936	881	828	775	723	671	620	570	519	469	419	370	321	272	223	176	128	82	37
2	1000	940	886	834	782	730	679	628	578	527	477	427	378	328	279	230	182	134	86	40
3	1000	942	889	837	785	734	683	633	582	532	482	432	382	333	283	234	185	137	89	42
4	1000	944	891	839	788	737	686	636	586	535	485	435	386	336	286	237	188	139	91	44
5	1000	945	893	842	790	740	689	639	588	538	488	438	388	339	289	240	190	141	93	45
6	1000	946	894	843	793	742	691	641	591	541	491	441	391	341	291	242	192	143	94	46
7	1000	947	896	845	794	744	693	643	593	543	493	443	393	343	293	244	194	145	96	47
8	1000	948	897	847	796	746	695	645	595	545	495	445	395	345	295	246	196	146	97	48
9	1000	949	898	848	798	747	697	647	597	547	497	447	397	347	297	247	198	148	98	49
10	1000	950	900	849	799	749	699	649	599	549	499	449	399	349	299	249	199	149	99	49
11	1000	951	901	851	801	751	701	651	601	551	501	451	401	351	301	251	201	151	100	50
12	1000	951	902	852	802	753	703	653	603	553	503	453	403	353	303	253	202	152	102	51
13	1000	952	903	854	804	754	705	655	605	555	505	455	405	355	305	254	204	153	103	52
14	1000	953	904	855	806	756	707	657	607	557	507	457	407	357	307	256	206	155	104	53
15	1000	954	906	857	808	758	709	659	609	559	509	459	409	359	309	258	207	157	106	54
16	1000	955	907	859	810	760	711	661	612	562	512	462	412	361	311	260	210	158	107	55
17	1000	956	909	861	812	763	714	664	614	565	515	465	414	364	314	263	212	161	109	56
18	1000	958	911	863	815	766	717	667	618	568	518	468	418	367	317	266	215	163	111	58
19	1000	960	914	866	818	770	721	672	622	573	523	473	422	372	321	270	218	166	114	60
20	1000	963	918	872	824	777	728	679	630	581	531	481	430	380	329	277	225	172	119	64

[Aryxbez]

Demons and Devils alone have a host of abilities. Each and every one of them have a number of options they can throw out at any 6 second interval. I honestly am unable to even imagine how to make that into something workable when fielding numbers in the tens of thousands.

My best guess is you take into account common units on Demon/Devil sides, take into account of how they would use their abilities against fellow opposition, and see what multiplicative interactions that would have. I'm not sure what are common Terrain types in the 9 Hells where they fight, but can account for those to help inform what the battlefields will look like. Ice Devils exist, by their persona & abilities seem like create Ice Walls everywhere, possibly forming pseudo Ice Fortresses to Ice-archer people (w/images to throw off their position), or Hemispheres to help get them into position to use their fear auras, and possibly use of Persistent image to throw off Demon forces on their exact position. Anyway, my best guess is to try and simulate how battles like that would go, then possibly inserting certain scenarios that'd change up the interaction, especially when/if the PC's show up (Heroes of Battle advice kinda I know). Least that's my suggestion for something without a concrete system, just try to be true to the abilities of characters. Kinda sorta how like [Tome] characters with "Whirlwind" can attack 3x their movement speed in foes if the opponents in a tight formation, and ye can multiply this more by the reach they have (Soulborn is great class for this w/options they got).


It does seem what people want out of their Mass Battle minigame, doesn't necessarily warrant its use. I myself want to Dynasty Warriors through gallons of dudes, making a difference while having climatic battles with named dudes. So I agree with the notion of wanting to be able to quickly, and smoothly, send scores of enemies out to be taken out in a RPG without major hiccups (I myself have preference in my DMing to throw down bunch of minions to be cleared).

[ACOS]

I find it strange that people are talking about Blood War type stuff before anyone has even agreed on what mundane mass battles should look like.
The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to think that it isn't even appropriate (for practical reasons) to add a true mass combat minigame to D&D style games. It basically boils down to 2 things for me:
(1) You're playing D&D because you want to play first-person perspective. If you want to war-game, go play a wargame. If you then want to dovetail the narrative to your already-existing D&D game, then just do that.
(2) When trying to implement any of this, you're invariably going to want to incorporate the use of table-top avatars. This becomes extraordinarily problematic because the extended scene is going to involve multiple changes between multiple levels of magnification (otherwise, go back to #1) - which is just an untenable logistical nightmare - and as such, is simply unplayable.

And that's just when dealing with mundane armies. When you want to throw in some Blood War type shit, forget about it.
Don't get me wrong - I actively want something like this to be workable. I'm not trying to be defeatist here; just pragmatic. You might be able to make a workable subsystem that's good for up to a few hundred total combatants; but bigger than that, no deal. I think this is just yet another thing that gets put on the pile of "not appropriate for D&D".

---

ACOS: "In tWoT, any and all battles end in casters nuking armies. Like Dumai's Well."
Frank: "You cannot prove a for all statement with an example. But you can disprove a for all statement with a counter-example; Emmond's Field."
ACOS: "why are you so mean :(:("

Actually, the Battle of Emmond's Field can be simulated and resolved as a series of cut-scene skirmishes (platoon- to company-sized units). For that matter, I'm hard-pressed to think of any battle in that series that couldn't.
I just got tired of Frank's obstinate pedantry.
So go back to eating your stale popcorn. You've added nothing.

[Seerow]

So I read the Ranks and Measures thing from the d20heroes srd posted near the beginning of the thread, what if you tied something like that in with your dicepool for mass combat?


Relinking for visibility:
http://www.d20herosrd.com/home/ranks-and-measures


Basically just take the volume table, and use the number given as cubic feet there as number of people in the group. So if you have a unit of 1000 soldiers? That is a rank 10 unit, which works with a dice pool of 10. You'll probably want some other modifiers included to make it unlikely two rank 8 groups utterly trump the single much larger rank 10 group, but it seems like as good of a starting point as any.

[DSMatticus]

Surprise! ACOS will say more dumb things when you poke him with a stick. The Battle of Emmond's field begins with a concentrated charge by five hundred Trollocs, and escalates in size from there to thousands. Sure, you could technically represent that as a pile (more than a dozen by the end) of company-sized units, but that is because companies are a couple hundred soldiers each and talking about throwing around companies as units means you're already talking about a mass battle, in the same way that when you start measuring distances in "just a couple of light-years" you're already talking about interstellar travel.

More generally, I don't think you've developed object permanance yet. This really shouldn't need explaining, but moving an important event off camera doesn't actually change whether or not you need to have a way to resolve the outcome of that event. Even if the PC's aren't on the eastern flank to help the spearmen hold out against the worg cavalry charge, you still need to know whether or not the spearmen can hold out against the worg cavalry charge! In a book or movie, every single event ever, either on camera of off camera, is decided by author fiat. Unsurprisingly, "the DM will tell you how well your army does fuck anything you do to help other than show up and personally murder worgs" is not a particularly satisfying answer.

[violence in the media]

You're ignoring that a lot of people want a wargame with their characters in it that also accurately reflects what their characters are capable of in that universe. Nobody wants to be playing D&D, where their character can cast 4 fireballs per day and kill 20 goblin warriors with each one by themselves, and then port over to Warhammer for mass battles where that might not be able to happen because of the differences between the games.

Also, in situations where each player might be controlling his or her own force, they're going to want the decisions and choices they've made to be reflected in a consistent, fair, and semi-objective manner. If Tim decides to go recruit allies from the dryads and Sally wants to try to train up her peasant militia instead, they'll want to make those choices in some sort of framework that gives them an idea of what the results might be. Sally is going to be pissed if Tim comes back from his recruitment drive with a whole company of Treants if she had no idea that was possible. She was just hoping to give 100 peasants 1 level of warrior in that same time frame because she didn't think it was reasonable to ask for more than that.

Lastly, having a level-appropriate encounter with a larger battle happening in the background can be unsatisfying for a lot of reasons. A big one is it makes the whole game feel scripted. Which it is, cause that's pretty much the solution people have offered for mass battles. Tautology time is tautology time: set dressing that doesn't matter is set dressing that doesn't matter. Why are the PCs fighting this enemy here in this battle when they could just as easily be fighting him in his tent at his war camp? Or in his castle? What is different about fighting him here as opposed to anywhere else? Would it change the encounter(s) if they sought this enemy out straight away, or avoided him as long as possible? Could they focus on winning the rest of the battle so hard that they don't have to fight this guy at all? With a good MC and/or robust battle system, those things could matter. With your average MC just "winging things" and setting encounters against the backdrop of the battle; I have a feeling the fight with the Black Prince will be pretty much the same no matter what "choices" the players make.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So I read the Ranks and Measures thing from the d20heroes srd posted near the beginning of the thread, what if you tied something like that in with your dicepool for mass combat?


Relinking for visibility:
http://www.d20herosrd.com/home/ranks-and-measures


Basically just take the volume table, and use the number given as cubic feet there as number of people in the group. So if you have a unit of 1000 soldiers? That is a rank 10 unit, which works with a dice pool of 10. You'll probably want some other modifiers included to make it unlikely two rank 8 groups utterly trump the single much larger rank 10 group, but it seems like as good of a starting point as any.

This fails an important criterion:

• The mass combat minigame must output results that reflect approximately what would happen if you spent three years or more resolving the battle on the non-mass-combat minigame

Compare my table for 10 dice to my table for 1000 dice.

[name_here]

Actually, the Battle of Emmond's Field can be simulated and resolved as a series of cut-scene skirmishes (platoon- to company-sized units). For that matter, I'm hard-pressed to think of any battle in that series that couldn't.

The battles of Tarwin's Gap, the White Tower battles in Kandor, the sack of Caemlyn, the battle at Shayol Ghul. Those absolutely cannot be satisfactorily handled as company-size skirmishes.

[RadiantPhoenix]

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[/img]

A pool of 10 dice is absolutely not substitutable for a pool of 1000 dice.

The SSE of 10d vs 1000d for d20 TN 11 is literally 75 times bigger than the SSE for not rolling at all, and assuming average results.

[ACOS]

You're ignoring that a lot of people want a wargame with their characters in it that also accurately reflects what their characters are capable of in that universe. Nobody wants to be playing D&D, where their character can cast 4 fireballs per day and kill 20 goblin warriors with each one by themselves, and then port over to Warhammer for mass battles where that might not be able to happen because of the differences between the games.

Also, in situations where each player might be controlling his or her own force, they're going to want the decisions and choices they've made to be reflected in a consistent, fair, and semi-objective manner. If Tim decides to go recruit allies from the dryads and Sally wants to try to train up her peasant militia instead, they'll want to make those choices in some sort of framework that gives them an idea of what the results might be. Sally is going to be pissed if Tim comes back from his recruitment drive with a whole company of Treants if she had no idea that was possible. She was just hoping to give 100 peasants 1 level of warrior in that same time frame because she didn't think it was reasonable to ask for more than that.

Lastly, having a level-appropriate encounter with a larger battle happening in the background can be unsatisfying for a lot of reasons. A big one is it makes the whole game feel scripted. Which it is, cause that's pretty much the solution people have offered for mass battles. Tautology time is tautology time: set dressing that doesn't matter is set dressing that doesn't matter. Why are the PCs fighting this enemy here in this battle when they could just as easily be fighting him in his tent at his war camp? Or in his castle? What is different about fighting him here as opposed to anywhere else? Would it change the encounter(s) if they sought this enemy out straight away, or avoided him as long as possible? Could they focus on winning the rest of the battle so hard that they don't have to fight this guy at all? With a good MC and/or robust battle system, those things could matter. With your average MC just "winging things" and setting encounters against the backdrop of the battle; I have a feeling the fight with the Black Prince will be pretty much the same no matter what "choices" the players make.

I'm not ignoring it so much as recognizing the lack of practicality.
Remove the need to be married to the battlemat, and I might change my tune; but even that's dubious, and for various reasons. Your standard battlemat that you find at the average table is 24x36 - so that's the expected standard. By your very own example (I'm not picking on it; I'm simply referencing it as validation of my previous assumptions), something like this requires multiple scale changes within the scene. I've tried to do scale changes several times in the past, and the very best result that I've ever gotten is "clumsy" - and I'm even in the fortunate and unusual position of having a 48x72 battlemat where I can draw a frame-cut across the middle and still have plenty of room to work with. I'm pretty sure that "clumsy" is on the list of adjectives that contribute to an overall "unsatisfying" or even "unacceptable". Fix that problem, and you have my attention.

I also think that this proposal is asking too much of any single game. The reason that there are soooooo many types of RPG game design is so that each type of experience can be catered to. My point being is that a game needs to figure out the very finite set of things it can and wants to do, and just focus on just doing that. Stretch yourself too thin, and everything will suck.
After 40 years, the fact that this kind of scale-changing has yet to be satisfactorily accommodated just might not be the result of accident, incompetence, or lack of dedication/motivation - it just might be that it can't be done without levels of fiddliness that would put Rolemaster to shame. And the more I think about it, that's just a concession I'm willing to make.

How many times has someone talked about figuring out how to do one thing or another in their RPG, only to be told "leave that to single-author fiction"? I don't think there is anything wrong with just recognizing and accepting that flipping back-and-forth between wildly different scales within the same scene can only be done satisfactorily in single-author fiction.

And all of that notwithstanding, even if such a thing can work, I outright reject the very concept of "to-hit" rolls. All the end-user "grunt work" will need to be done pre-battle. Units will have to be treated as single creatures. The only decisions to make once battle starts is movement and when to active a unit's "special powers". The only dice rolls will be for results, such as damage or whatever. And if you're throwing more than 10 dice for any given thing, then you've done it wrong (and even then, only at the highest end of unit-size).


"MTP is the worst rule in your game. At least it better be."

[Username17]

Actually, the Battle of Emmond's Field can be simulated and resolved as a series of cut-scene skirmishes (platoon- to company-sized units). For that matter, I'm hard-pressed to think of any battle in that series that couldn't.
I just got tired of Frank's obstinate pedantry.

What's with the bizarre shifting goalposts? My "obstinate pedantry" was the claim that there was at least one mass battle in that book series where the unit composition and tactics of the protagonist team mattered. You claiming that a particular battle could be done with "only" a series of platoon and/or company level conflicts is actually surrendering on that point. You're wrong of course, but that doesn't even matter because even your current irrational claims contain the necessary tacit admission that the side of the argument you staked out for yourself was completely wrong.

At this point, why are you still talking? You've ceded the entire argument space and are now just making noise. You're quibbling about whether you were wrong by 2 orders of magnitude or 3. And it doesn't fucking matter because you were still wrong.


Eat your fucking crow and stop whining.

-Username17

[ACOS]

-Username17

I think you're conflating which argument goes with which topic and with which post.
You don't have to take it out on me the fact that you can't and don't have a particular thing you want.
The only one whining here is you.

Besides:
[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhQUExQUFhUVGBwYFhgYFx0YHBsXFxoYHhwcGB0YHCgiGh0lHBceITEiJSkrLi4uGB8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OGxAQGiwkICQsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsNCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLCwsLP/AABEIAQMAwgMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAABBQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwQFBgcCAQj/xABGEAACAQMCBAQEAgcFBgQHAAABAgMABBESIQUGMUETIlFhBxRxgTKRFSNCobHB8FJicrLRFiQzNYLhNHN00ggXJVSzw/H/xAAZAQEAAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBAX/xAAkEQEBAAICAgIBBQEAAAAAAAAAAQIRAyESMUFRBCIyYXGRE//aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8A2AVEXHMCx3sVm6MpnjZ4ZMjSzJ+KP1DAb/Qj1qYqm/Fu3/8Ap0k6kpLask0LqcFXDqv5EMRj6elA6PPcCxXk7K4gtJPC8QYPiyg4KxL38xAycDfOcZIU4bzgTcQwXNpPaNcZ8BpCjK5UZKkoTofH7LfTrjMDzLy8YuCQRW0bOLcwTFVGWcKwaQgd2JYtivOL8ch4recMjsWaXwbhbqZwjBYo0GwkLAYZjkAe30oLdwPmZLm3nuFjZRA8qFSRkmEbkY9afcv8aW6tI7pVKrImsKSCQBnYkfSs14NzHBw+14jaXRaO5M9w0cWhi0on2jMWBhgx26/XarxyTYvBwi3ilUq62/mU9QSCcH0IzuKCI4f8T0aGK5ls7iG0lbSLglHRTqK5kCtqRdQIyR1x61Mca5v8O4+VtraW7nCCSRY2RFjQ9NbyEDUeoXqayjhvHYrjl2PhcGqa9l8ohRGOn/eS+p2xpVQuDknv9cXCDiEfCuLXj3rGOK7ht/BmKsULW8Wh0LAHDbE4PbHqMhL33xLt47Br3wpSEm8CWEgLJHKOqsCcZH171LXfN0SvYBAZFvyRE6kAABQ2TnfoelZbxGNnsrm6KMkV3xaOSEONJaLUAHIO4De//enl/wANex4xw60A/wB1NzJPan+wJV/WQgeiv5h7SCgt918QWW2N0tjO8CeJrcPGAvhSMh2ZgTuudganuWONy3al5LWW3XSjRl3RtYcE5GhjjAx1x+IVHfEiFU4ReqiqqiFsBQANzk7D3OfvU1yz/wCDtf8AyIv8i0ERzXzxDYXFrbyKzNctjKkYjUsqhnz2y3b+yaccz80raPDCkUlxcXBbwoY8AkIMszMxCoo9T/I4zLjthccWuOLSQQRzRACyjdpdBQwFZG0DSdeZMHqNtu9PrbmQNLwris5Ige1e3nmCkiK4zglwASqs4IB/lQWz/wCYUYt7ySS3ljmsdPjwMV1DxMaSrKSrKQevt9CVuFc8B7iC3uLWe2e5Vmt2co6SaFDEao2ODpOcEfxGc94nxq4ubHjQa5e7tI44RbztCsYZiR4gUoihsNt36D13lxYvaX/BpZZ3uUmV4k8YAeCzxKQYtGkZbZfMCcD1wQFi4Zz3Nc6zBw64kRJWiLiSIDUhwdmcH36Up/txK89xDb2E8/y0nhuyyRKNWMjAdgelZ1yRxGxieQ3HE7u3kW9kYW8cjCJwJARrRYyCGxgjO4pVLuzTiPE/muJXdmfmcqsEjIHAAyWCo2d9qDVOauYxY2TXckTsE0a0BGpdbKvXocFgKRm5shHEYuH4JklhMytkaf2vL650oW+lO+ZbNb3h88aEETwN4Zx3ZMocH3waxjhzzHhx43pzPBPBp6nVBbxC3cD0DNI7H/Dmg0eDn6NxCwhk0z3ps42yu5U48T/BnO3XY0jd87zR3CW54bc+LKHMY8SHzrH+Ijz4G2++KrLcN+WsuXIzsTdxSNnrqly5z93x9qsvH/8AnvDP/Iuf8tBL8N5h8W5a2aJ45EgjmYMVOPE/Y8vcHYkbbUpwXjq3Ml1GqMptZfCYkjzHGcjHQVU7nhjT8cugtxPb6bSEkwlQW8x2bWjbU4+GkBjm4ohd5Ct3gu+CzeQbtpAGfoBQXmijFFB6KpA+JAaa4hhsL2c28jRSNEisAysy9m2B0nGavArHeSbe/e+4x8lLbxgXj+J4yM+T4k2nTp6d/wB1Be7bnhfHs4Jba4ga8D+H4oVdLRlgVcZyCdKkYHSRakePc0R2lxaW5jeSS8cqgTHlwVyz5PQas/RTVX+KnDpv0db3R0tdWEkU5ZBgEgqJNIO4XVhvolc8uyrxLjst2vmgsreOOI9vEnUsSO2Qrup+1A+HxMDzTxQ8PvpzbyNE7RIrgMpI7NtnFOeMfEVbaOzMlnd+JeGQJBpXxQY2VcMpbq2oEY7GqXyJb8Qa74t8jNbRqL2TWJkZyTrkxp09Bin3xVFyt3wHBie6DvucrE0w+WyTjcIW++KC4cu8/RXVwbV4Li2udOtYrhNBdRndDk56e3fGcHDrlLm+G/W4wjxPbSGOaOXTqUr3OkkYyGGfVGqi8Ma4PMNueKrGtx8uws/l8+F0l16y51atJf749qZ/Fbh81vfBrN1T9LqLSYHONZZF1+2UYLnG3nPVqC4WfxHE8BuLexvZ4/FaJTGgJbSMl8Z2TcDJ75HY0jwP4ni7cLFw+/ZfEETuI1Ko2QDrIY4xnJ9qtvL/AAqOzt4raIeSJQo7ZP7THHdmJY+5NUX4Hn9Tf/8Arpf8qVXzhpbeWea472a8iRHU2cphctjDMGcZXB6eTv603i51iaa/hEcmqwTxJD5cMNJbCb9cDvis45K/SXz3GP0ebLHzr+J8z4mc+JNp0eH265z7V3y14/zXMPzXheP8t+s8HV4efCfGnX5sYx196nYuN98T7eLh1vxAwzGK4kMaoNOsFTIMnzYx+qPfuKl+ZOcYLSxF9hpYW0FdGMkSdD5iPWsdvUDct8HDAEG9IIPcGW6yDXPPzNw60u+EyZMRkSewY5P6ppMvET6qcnfr5j3AqRsHM/O0Nl4CeHLNPcDMUEK6nI9TvgD/AEOBscc8sc8R3c72rwz21yi6zFMuCU2GpCDgjcenXbODirQkDma314yeHjws+uWzp98B/wB9O7XmOYcat7W6sbVJ5YnZZ0bXIIgJSAGKAjLIfLnG9BbOcuZo+G2xuZUd1VlUhMZ8xwPxECpmF9ShvUA/nWe/Hv8A5RJ/5kf+ar9aNiJCegQfwFBRZ/inETM1vZ3lzBbkrLPEgKArudOT5gBuTttv0wat3DOPQXFqt3G4MLIX1HbAXOrV6EEEH6VmnC+D3NlFNNwW4truxdndraUZwQBrWNx+I4GNyB0yCeqfNvOMJ5cElrCtv82TAIkCgISzeNgKACCFbfAzrGQCcUF15F53g4qkrQq6GJgrK+M4YZVvKTscEf8ASaV5c5qjvJbmAJJFNavokSTGTnIDLg7qdPX3B7isv+H/ABi0t+MQxWcjNBc2qQuShj/3iFdmwwG7aO3eU1L/ABhtZbOeK/tGCS3StZSjpq8RTocH+0AvXtoT3oJ1vidaiG5uCsoht5vAV/KfGl32hAbfyjVk42IpxwHnuO4uRay29xazsniRpOoXWmCfLv1wCcY/ZPcYqW5Y5bjsrOG1AVhGPMSudUh3d8HPVicegwKq3LXD7i/vxxO7ie3WANFaW7qyvgg5kk1Y6hzt/wC3zBf6KKKDoVSJPhfAZp5kvOIQtcSNLIIZ1jUszM3QR9AWOMk1dxSiigjLDl9EtDaPJNPGyujPM+uRlk1Z1NgZwGwNtgBSfJXKEHC4WhtzIwdy7NIQWJIA6qqjAC+nrU4gpWgoMnwrg8WaWO94jCZ5GlkEM6xqWcknYR9Bk4zmpCTkKA/ItJPdO3D3eSN5JFZnLurnxmKeYDSAMYwKt1QXMXEQo8MHfq38h/XtUZXU2IvjHCIbi9t7wtIslsGWMggKwYEEMCpPc9COtK8b5bivXtZJWkU2somj0FQCylT58qSR5B0IpnFdg/n2/r+sVKi9xiuW5322xw2mklFQ3K3LEVgsywtIwmlaZvEKnDtgELpUbbe9d/M9/wDtT+1uA1Rjl8Jy49dmHLXKsNlLdSxNIzXcplkDlSAxLnCaVBAy5656Cko+S4Fmvpg82q/TRKMrhRpK/q/JscHuTVjBo1V1z0wU6T4cWpsray8SfwrWXxo21JrLapGw58PBGZD0A6CnXPHJVvxSNEn1gxsWR4yA4yMEZZWGk7ZGP2R6VZwaCai9pVbj/KNvfrEJfEjmg/4U0L6JUxjo2PYdR9MVxy7yBb2s/wA00tzc3AGlZbmXxGRSCCE2GNiRvk7n1NWYsM5pYGowy30WIbm7lqLiNsbaZpFRmViYyA2VORuysP3VLxJpUKOgAH5V3RV0KDc/Cm1LSeDcXttFKSZIIJ9ETZ6+UqdiNsdMbACpJvh7aZsdPiKlgS0MSsNBckMWk1KWZtQBzkb1bKKCA5p5Thv2t3kaRHtZRLE8ZUMGGDg6lbykqpI/uivObeV4uIJEkzSKIpVmXwyoJZQQAdSnbzVYK4cUCEgzmofl3gi2cPhLLPKNRbXM+t98bZAG23pU0wpI0HNFFFB0KVWk1pVaBRBXdeLXtAldThEZz0UEn7Cs0uLxpXYncnfFXrmp8Wsv0A/NlFZfZXWpj/W1c3Pl3IvhEmhZRqqRs+Ijo1IRFSMbY/kfrTGezw2odu3tXNbZ6dWMT5ufSnNrdHVt+6qxZ3JzpOdts5qe4dchWGr1q2OW17Ewt+wO+f8ASlzf4GTT1YUcAgCukslHb71vML8Oe54fMMRxL0Un3wa5m4mSNlI+tO57NsEIwB9/SmVpwmXXmSVSPRV/Lcn+VLjl6TLx+3MDSHGVK/w/calrOXIx6UoxA60gkq6hjvUyeNUyy856O6KKK6GIooooCvGr2g0CDCkmpdxSLUHFFe0UHS0slJLSyCgUFFFFBB87n/cpvov+daxS1v8AS2f4Vt/N8WqznH93+BB/lXz3M2GP1ri/J9xrxNBsLxXXOd/5U/t5gxwPSqfwNs75+1WWC6VMdB7d6wldfieLw8Zznftneu3uAnbp6DP7qQXi6ZwxFNpOLw5AkdVB2I6nH0/1q8n0tJfkqecTGw0g42z/APzH1qd4dzQ7HOCVPQ4qi8R41w+JtSxliDkln/go/idvrVd4t8SXbKwroA2GkADH57VpjMvtNxxvWv8AW1x8xgtpLY9enfpUJx/mKW2lQAakkOA3v71jlpzRO7Lltge3pV54rdyG0R3jIAZWznoMYBx16GoyyrScGONi5XHM6DClwSRkb/wpG75qS0jLyedj0A3x6fasM4zxV5JCUbSOg39PTvUlYSNMQsshIxjAVsHHqz9T9Kbut1XLinp9D8qcwx30CyoRn9pc5wfT+f3qaqn/AAttVjssKAMyN079MZ+1XCuvC7xlebyTWVgoooq6gooooE3FItTh6RagSor2vKBRaWSklpZaDqiiigZ8UePw2WR0UOpXzMF6jHevmziOBK6gjAYjbfoSOtW/4n8ZdryWMEkJgBe2Ao/mT+dZfxOYKfJ5S3UDp9R71x8l/wCmXj9OvHh8cfJd+AsBjG9TdxOF8zZ26dP3/aqtwW4AUZ/F/Wan2tGmQ4PuNuv06Vy/Lqx9dq7xzipdvIMD1qtXdwOkkxx6Bi35DOBUzxKywxDBvQ4/rambcOtx2/if5VrhlJ7Xt61ihmnRtowTtnf95xnam6Sen8KnTaQ9EUk/T+Z2pzwvlmSVwMEAke/51t54o8cvmn3w74Z8zMob8IOW2zkVvvG+XkuLOSFMKWjIVvRseU/Y1TOVOW0s1ABGo/iOOtaLwl8ripwm7ZZ7YfkZ3qy+nyHLYT62RlZWVirDIBDKSDn1wR29KvFrwzW+YA0aqo19QH3X9ncDfetT5h5CinneVT4buck4yC3TJHviveCcjPG2ZXUqOy53/Pp9Krn5XrRMsJPLff8AKa5GQRQeGTg5zv6n0/KrNVG5wvPlBFLH+y2ll7MCMeb+up77g2blviy3dtHOmQHGcHqMHGD+Vb8V68XJyzvy+0nRRRWrIUUUUHjUg1LmkXoE68rqig6Wl1pFaWFB7RRRQYR8Z+HmHiEc37Ey5/6gApH7gfvWRX0hZ2bPQ4/j0HcbV9H/ABu4UZbJJFG8L5/6X2/zBR96+ZZOv0rHHHWdrqy5N8WK1ct5OcnoN/p7/f8AlV5seLJEoBI3AxvnPrWU8Pv2Q7H3Od8kbjP9d6fTcWJYHJwMAewHXvt+fasM+G3Lbo4+XG4tgghhm2I3O5PrUtw7k+1O5QHPrWVcG42UI8w3I9e4Y49c/u6VonBOYcr1PX+sZ3qsx1e1+76Wf/ZGzRc6P6/oVVua+JR2afq1AOcAeh+g/o1J33MCqv4t/QH+NV3jvL0i2/6QkbU0TK4jwdlJwCfcEg/arW76i3Hjr99SXLVndMBLMdOrop6j0JH/AHq+8OuyMbgVhd38RpTsuPtt/E084Fz07Hd9/f8Arek/T8J5OLz63G08YnbQWHVRq+w6j8s11w/i2pRvWe8O5na5mhtldVaRup3wBuT+7Az1J7VPXVvJanBIaPoG6YHoe1WmXyxvDJPGmXxQuyINa5BGxPp6E7b7/wAad/A/iJksCh6pK+O3lY52Hbcnb3qjfEXjRaMqDkHBIxkA9ydjjaj4FcYMdzLEDmN1zjJzkdSvr06detW473tlzY6x032igGiulxCiiig8NJPSxpJ6BKivaKDpaWFJLSooPaKKKBnxi0WaGSJl1K6lSPr3HuDuPcV8bcbtzHPKjAgq7AgjB2PpX2o1fH/xDK/pK60LpXxDt7gDJ27k5Y+5NV+U760rwpbxtgPTfv1OOv5YpEUVYl0XiuCDkHGDke2OlW/h3Gm0E52HX1Oc++wHTH1+1LBp7aPnC4J9gcE+3TqelZcmG46vx+XV7aFwLiQZxLKRpUjCkdW2x9qvXFOZEljeBgAJVK4365Az74P8Kxe/4o6Bo/wqCMjG+euc59/pgDpTaXjUkjq3TTgKB0wCTvvk9eprGcdkdOXNLlqkOJQHY46kg9sEdj/Xr6UwSVl6Ej6VLPKzFmwQGzkLjGSpH5bn8zSPywO+hvsf9a1mUk1WefDnll5Spn4eXhjuxKzfhBIz3ODvn2z/AArVuKc0iSJg3ULuMjIPXocdvr2z61iay+FnAIPbfofX+P51xJxKQtqJ3Ix1/wBKrcfL0n9kmOXtMcxzFxgZYknCjZh9Vxk7dx7dKa8icTe2voHQhTq0nOwwdiD6Z6f69Ki5GLfjOOnX+t/9KSKMGBOQc7H3HpV8MfGaYctuWW32pbzBhsfrStY/yBzgSig5aXZepIIA7b+3Q++PStdicMAR3q+OW3Plj43TuiiirKiknpWknoE6KKKDtaVFIrSwoPa5dsDNek461hnxh+JxYm0sZRox+uljP4s58iMO3qR1zjpnMVMm135i+IdtAMGaPWdQwcq647MMHv7f6182cx3CyXMsiHKuxcbk4Db4Oe+/Tt07UxY6j36d964NRImuaK9oxVlQKexS6DkHt+LHt29896aKmSB0z67V3HDvgkA+/wDLH9b1FXxtl6PvK4x+WdgoH5kk/wCnoKcJw9UXUdx7MBnpkDGdsnr+VMcYUgZyDgbfw+vX7Cn/AA6RQp1licA6QcKPTJzuTnoDnY1nZ9OjGzfZI2TYByAS+kDODjvjOMncbe9dGxUOVaQgKTkHOcg9ARlSaVfiGAulQP7Od8Zz5tzjJye31zXVxG0b4LEsx8x2ILnGVOfVtW52BP1pPS13t5aWQD5HnX0J0nv7HHTruOozUgbeDc5H90Mx7YztGG+nUd9qZ2V0D/Z1AHYkqCMj/TsRjAroxgsT+2CAwY52PTSSRvjfBP37VW72v1p38jHMVCjw2bbTuytgn8G+3XpsOmwppJZMmuFs7ElScgZG4OGHpkdj5vbBdFkYhSG0n9kPgh12Zoj01dDpI3wcdfL1xKcz6lkYmZNJVgo/WL5Rkg430nOM42qzG2bWX4VWjPIGAACnGWGfMBsB5hnOSSMHpjavouyfKg/n9e/76+TeVOYJLRyYw5J3KqxAPsy5wwx674zv3r6A+G/O0V8gUyYnx5o2wCSO8e+4wRkdv3lOqz5Jb2vdFFFasRST0rST0CdFFFB0tRHHecbKyyLm4jRwM6M6nwemEXLb/Sm/NfN9tw6PXcP5iD4ca7u5H9kdh/eOAPWvmDmDjD3tzLcTMS0jZwNwq/soNuijA+2e9RbpfDDyW/4kfE2XiDGKBnitehTGGcdzIQen93p657Zy/mOMgfXYUtIVxtmmjmqztpnrGajyloXOCM4BGD/IfnSFeg1djK9I969FDnO+2/XFCPjp1O32IwaD12yfT27V3CpJ6EqOozjb6n6Um59sf9qXjQ4c58qqM++Su2frv9iahMK2zFiRk5IIHYZIxufptTqaA6Hk09HwwJ3UEDQGGPZt/VfzjQM4A2+/v1/L+BqcsXEkLlhkro8TcAsoDYP10Fs79VQ9SarY1mSPlQq4ZSCoOlWJHbbf0xj7beoJbSyk9z1NPYIT+tRtOpwAh1AgvrUg7dCVDjP9/G2ajHJzvnI/ltUyIuWjm3k1E/2vxD/pBJ39xTyOcHCqx3GEOMnOchWXfv0+3ao+0wXGe5Az3BPQjHod/tTmyUtqXYEjVsMk6ewI6H2GM/lUWJxyqSkmDxg9Gw4cbACRR5W2AwdlwfYgnsyEk2rRKNIdAgPmUMQqnJAPTcdcbZpC9uQMOrESnJfbbr6k75Pm0lRjbelJfDcCQRjVtrUSaQxIydKFc/XB+m1NI8u+jGSbJZsAaiTt2ye1LwTlG7qcffPYj0PcGkppV1ZXOM50NnbPUe/pnY496SV++9LF8c2p8ofGG5tdKXWbqHpq6SqPqdn/AOrc/wBqtf5c+IFhfMEhm85GdDqUOfQahhm9gTXyijdxXqnuDg1EticuLG9x9q0k9fMvKvxTvrPSrP40Q/YlJbb+6/4l/ePatc5W+K1leOkTa7eZ8BVfdWY9Ajrt12GoLmryscuOxeqK5I+v50VLN8aX3EJZ21zSSSvjGqRy7YHQZYk4pBWx2z/XtXAoaoab6eg1w1KCucULOnFe16wrmpZva9A36/nXNFB2rUsZSQE2UZG3qemSfXf6fSm+K6jznbrRO3WSPYZP596kuBXOiQ5KhWXSd8HbBGB3OVHtTCOXzgnpq1Effeuki0sM4Az3GRg9D9D/ACNQtD/wnVRJoR4T+IbOF1H2OYzuO4OcZ6jLfisiyEOowSAGBOdwNmz/AHh19wfWndhAA2cdVZdKuGznPlGO+xGDudsVFvCfTP59Mbde2BULX0TAwdu3SpSQHIkjOnyeuDsDjGNyeg2/aHbamCQHGrtnf29Ptnb7UtZS+cAjPqBjcbZxnocClREjNGJg0jEJqZQ/XCsQRgj9nOk6f2d8bYyGEhMJaPOVJyQRggjow66WH13HqDTm5lKnWinQVIVhsunBwM43Izg570le3okQZQJpAVQFG49c5B7HoP2j60TTe6n8QAk5cYBzn36E/wAPpjpSKHBIOD/XakaURe9TUY3de50nalAds1yVpMHSfaq+2m7j/Rwm/wBa6gnZGVlJVlIZSDuGByCPQg/wpGugfzqGm1sPxI4n/wDeS/kv/toqpUUR4z6ICvVooWruee3Ve1yDXtQvK8cVxShNeEVMVyhOvaCK8qWb0UGvKKDpTipC3VWiJwAyHfsSGOzA+zYH3HrUbSsU7Kcg77j1yD1BB2IomVIvA6ksM6tWrAGdiAUOB66un09acwBJjnLBmADLp1dMDUu3U9f2cHPbaml1xQsyMAFZFVQRsAV7gdj0HX9n6Y5nwCXCqVfdTkjB7ggEdNx6bdqqvs9jKR5RtDqfwaV3HYlyRvnoQCcHBGNODzeWUQjDeZNQBTWSDk56YjOpfuOg9d4yO682pgGzknO+c7HPf75pW6kj0gAb49wBvsRqJOcbY6dPSmjc0aOcDAbI698Z+/8ApSde15VmYpdOlJgZpeIYquTbinYArmRc12vWuWI9RVW11rskpxtXZrxxkV4jVZj66daxXldeHRUdL6yJOac8MtfFmijzjxHVM+mpgM/vpoaWtpzGyupwyMGU+6nI/eKsw91ufF+M3VpxEcO4baI9papH40CxqxkRwpYszb6sNjPc7nOa8+Hls63HHBb23y0vhxtDDLpPhuySsoOfKF1EEDoARURNzTwu7uouIyXN1aXAEfjwIhZZDFjADLtpOAN+oA2BrzhvPtjPc8Ye4aWCLiEccUfk1sFWNoyTpyAcEHHv3xUoPTdcT/SfDIeIm3KtOXjEQj6opB1FP8fQ/wAqefEW44xEt6wNsLLzqBiMv4T+TG3mzhvrVL4bJwmyu7O4t7u4l8OYGUPCVCx6W3GF3OcDHvSvNn6FuZbm5W9uPGlLyLH4BC6yCVXJXYZwM1CWcstafyjF+l+FS8N8vzVqfHtCdiyZ8yE+2oj086f2aq/PPLsVitkFkdpp7dJp0bH6tnAwBgeurY5Owr34XcdisuJQ3FwxWJBIGIBb8UbAbLudyKROVlX+/trebifDeBphra0yZ8beLOsbyNqx9CDjvI47CuuD86PdcXbhssFubB5JIFg8JQFWMOFZSNw3kHsO2NqzbhvMxteK/PRjWFnkkAO2pJCwYb9CUY79iau9rx7glveNxSKS6eYlpEtTHp0yyA51P+HSCx6E498YqVHdzw5bfgPGIV3EPEmiUnrpSSBRk/QVHcDUf7LX5wM/OJ2/9NSHLfOdtNBf2nEdccd7MbjxYl1aJWZWOV3OnKDpnuO+QnzDzFZW/DDwzh7yziWUTTzyJoBI04VFO4/AvUdu+dglP/h9mVLm8dhkJalj3zpdT3709seXVt+PXMr5+StkfiA7qUZdSaR0yHOB3PhVVPhZzHb2T3huGKia2aNMKWy5IwNht9akOIc+xPwWK1H/AIsiO3mbSR/usDO0Y1d+oGPdqDTbiMfp2+GBj9Gen98Vm/wJGbi9zviykxn/ABpUrxD4l2q8aa6QPLazWwt5cKVYAnJKhsZwQPsTUdw/jvC+FRXT2M091cXEZij1x+GsSt3ckDUQQDt1wBtkmgmuRpZG4TEvBmt1vldmu0kCeK4y2AviDBXBA7DHcHOYDmPna5tL2SSG0WxneNVuUZFcO6lj4igqAM6uoyDgHJplwi74RcWsEdwZLG6tzvPFHrEozsTp8wcYG+2Dk75wEvijzVDxCaHwNZSCERCST/iSkE+Zv+++Sx2zUVfGbXP42c1XEE5s4zGIZrZS48Nc5dpAcNjI2UVFfANSbm80gFvlWKZxjVrXHXbr61CfFjmGC/vEmt2LIsCRklSvmVpCdm/xClPhTzBbWU1ybp2RJrdogVQucsy9gPTNRvtfx/QuHPFtO3BZZeJww/NLKogkhQEopZNXiPFlVBGobnBJXvirNx1eKCKz/R3y4Q20evxPDzrwOmvfpWctx7h1jYXltZSXFy94oRjIgjRANQ1YwDqw59c4Xpin3M/FODcRW1M13cRvBAsRCQFhkDfcr61KtlZnxW7eWeWSXBkd2Z8AAaiTnAGwGfSo+RcHNPuJJGssghZniDERsw0llzsSOxI7U1O9Va2bjjV7mvaTKUVZlu/TynFjZvNIkUSlpJGCoo6lmOAKb1K8s8YayuoblQGMLhtJ21DcEZxtkEjPbNSovi/BuQERPf2S3bLqW3L+Y7Z/xdjuFPQ1TU5RuzfGwER+ZDaSuRgDGrUT006Tqz6GtNubXhnGrpbqzvntOIMUYRyrsZI8aNOdi3lH4Wbp+H1kvhba3acYv/0gdd1HAq69jlCykFSAMqQB2z2ODkUJVTf4NzeaOO+spLpBlrcP5h/P7lQPpVZ5S5Fnv7yWz1CCWFGZxIDsUdFK7d8v+6m/JF7J+lLOXU3iPdR6mzu3iSAPn11BiD9a3PhcKrzVdFRu1iGb/FrgH8FFQm2sD504JNZXclvO/iOmnz7kMpUEEat8YOPsRVhn+F06cM/SLSxhPCWXw8Nq0uRp36bhgfvVw544H+l34Vcp1mkNncEbEGJnJIH+FJm+gWrVzpxdbjhHF1jx4dtL8smPSJbfUPs7MPoBUqsz4d8InktoLl721hSdFdRISv4lzjJ2Jx6VA81ckNaSW8cVxDdvcEqqwHUQwKAA79WL7fQ1qvHbKxl4HwocQuZLeMRxlGRC5L+F0OlGxtk9Kqvw84fYpx+1Wxne4hETtrdChEmiUEYZV6DB6d6BvH8GZRpjlvrOK6cZS3Z/Mfb1P1VSPrVWteSLg8SXh0uIpmJGW3XAUsGBH4lIXYj/AFrn4g3kh4teuWYOtzIFbJBAjcqmD2wqrj6Ctt5qQHj3BXIGto5Ax7kBGIH2LN+ZoMN525Tm4Zc+BMQ2VDI650up7jPocgj2+lTvGPhjLb3NlbtPGzXudDANhcafxZ6/i7VpPPlunGBfWYA+d4c/iQY6yRMqkqPqTp+oj9TS3O//ADXgH1b/APXQUa5+DRjYpJxKxRh1Vm0kZGRkE5Gxz96zrjfD/l55YdaSeGxXWhyrY7r7VsfxH4PwWTiNw95xCeG4OjxI1idguIkC4IiYHKgHr3rDqDSuF/CR5bWC6e9toUnUMokJX8QzjJ2JwKZXfw1KXdpbR3ttM10ZAGjOoJ4ahvPj1zt9DWicUsrGXgHDBf3D28QCFWRC5L+G/lwqNgYJPTtVL5Os7KLj9ithcPcQ7ku6FCH0S5XDKu2ApzjvQUnmvgrWN3LbO4doiAWXIByobbP+KpTkfke44kZGjZIoYv8AizSHCLtnA9Tjf0A6kZGV/jD/AM4vP8a//jSpT4ac52tvbXPD75X+WuSSZI+qFlCnUBvjCggjOCOhzsTukeYfhrNBbNd21zb3lun/ABGgbJXHU4BIIGd8HI64xvTngXwrkuLSG7a9toUmHlEuV3ywxk7E+UmpPiHKktvYXM/B+I/MWTqfmYvKHCaSG1bdQjEkYQ47Gp82dlLy3w5b+4e3iDgq6IXJk/X4XCq2Bgsc47U0eV+2a84cnCwWNhd21x4jFcQtkrgZy2/SqsRU7zdZWMUiCwuJLiMrl2dChD5OwDIuRioI9M1St8b08oryipNkjUryvxtrG6huUUOYmzpPRlIKsM9sqSM9qiqKswa/NzJwCa7XiLrepOrLIYVC6WkTBB/MA/iUHuOtRA+Kkg4w3EFi/VsngmLO5hGOp/t5Gr93Ss3FBNBr9rzJy/b3Hz8MN20+S6QEAIkhzuN8DBP9pgOw2FRvJPxHROL3PEL3UBPEyARrq0+aLSu5GwSPGf8AWsxoohqnw/8AiZFYR3ySKza3ea1GnOJWDAhiT5QfJ0/vVG8D5zgj4JfWUpkNxczNIp05B1CHdmz1yjVntFBsT848HuuHWVpe/N5tkTPhqB51TSdydx1qrcQ41YWV1aXPCPH1xMzSifoQQoCjHYqXB+oqjUUGvX3MfL93P89cQ3SznDSQAApI6gdd8Ebeqg9xuaim+JAuONwX86skEGVRF8zKmlwM9AWLPk/l2rNqKC8cS540cbfiNrqKFwdLeXXHoVWVhvjOD642ParXzd8SLO54jw25j8Xw7VmMupMHDFcaRq36GscooNf5j43y9fXMlzN894kmnVpAA8qqowPoorLeNeD48vy2vwNR8LX+LR21e9MqKDYU5w4Rc8Ms7K9+azbqpPhqB51Ur1J3GGNQ1nxjhFnxCxuLP5rw4mkNx4gBO6YTQPqWz9qzeig13j/GOXby4kuJvn/ElILaQANgBsPoKjeWOdLCGK84fcQyyWE0rNC648VFLLp1AkZwEVsg7EHY52zSig1Zub+F8Osrq24YLmWW7Uo8s2AFUqy9gMkB2wAvU7ntS/D+buEzcJtbC++azAdZ8JQPODIBvncYkPasir0NQXDm/wDRWiP9HfM69R8TxsY0420475qrIe3rXCSetdsKrXRjetxyQaK78U0VBqG4oryvau53lFFFAUVav9owYbKNppcRSK0iBThFj8qmM+JuShOR5ck9adcJ4zw1Jmea3Lq0KjaJQFmU+YCPxANLLjzZBBHTctQUuirDLxlRaQ26MxySZtQYhMPqUIviGNhjckoG6jODipa35hsDeM0tsvyyqwhCQqCGJB1SJrw5K+XJY4wCN6CkUVYHvbT5SdAmJmmLReQeWIlMDWSW2AYYzjcfiJyHN/f2LSwaEKxiIrIRCuRJg6W0awHKsBnLHI6lskUFWoq0zcXtY1u/ARXaWXMBkt0BjiYMWGdZ0kEqABkeT0YgvG4zw/VYmKOSAxMGnZUy2wGpVYSguGYHc4IDbdMUFKoq02/McebqWWON5pNAh1RmULpBUtqlcuDpwQSWOR22IRea1mighXEcjSRBpGiVVjGGWVmkVi0oZmV91GkLgUFcoq72fFrOO8la9QXA8KJVaMLIokjjjDgLqVSpwygqcDA07biFa4tvktI0+MxyV8HUQdZwRMWBUaNtABHQ9SdIQVFWLjN9bT3SSMZPCaJfEEcSIyyBCNKjZWGoLljjIzjoKRsp7dbKVWI8dmOB4Os6RoK6ZCw8LcNnAbIOKCDoq4Pxaw8eFvCPhr4niA26DKtjw49Ky+Ypv+tJDHbINQHHpYpJmaAYQqm2gRjXoUPhQzYBfURv0IoI6iulWlFWo2tMbSarTkVzXoqt7b4Y+LzPtRTkQZ9P6+1FRtfSNooorRxiiiigKKKKAooooCiiigKKKKAooooCiiig6rpaKKir4+xXooootHVdUUVVpHma9FFFQmHa9BRRRULP/9k=[/img]

[Seerow]

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WnaPdJlpmvaJrjytcbFwryHc9PesjHThXTF1LpTdN3SHmGKnObs68mFedVt1xXbFe5AixNjk7IkdO3Mu5zupdF1uneXa+dioyh7y45/7aLtaoG762KV4XpXyE+VRA/MllUmYiNdu0sX8za8K9pAMHUWdXOx4WxZ0HdEunR03e8OXBdWxXTp52IXsoHo7tpFV1YZKnAuNtKV7soqRRfOxS7p7ursClylHDPptgvnYhelawfcXadl4cK52LXITjhTtRFb1fYZcS52S+kyRGxVQ5eFc7HLOSQa7u4q5eZKpcL9Asd/gkxB0EjXTtFVzs2VTsW1M5W+wPNrZ2ohXfnparQztaSbawUVZ3Onc0hjJLzYODbSlUka7u66rQguIxVnjwvWqscZZ+2jq7Sbq3IqkC4ojXamnlYGF9JVE13TRsN1ayFdWysNdndV4uZCupAuoyfinYV0bbdDYthcuC4spAvpql6qcnOtoiKc6a+uggN2LqYDkbiDnpGuJjpTb6uGyzzT36MreDmDww/OQXQWzMXunVgBzsXWSzPdXdW5uVZScdfpMgM1hHN/wFzsIBZWiHQ1na7T6uEy14x9yRMITwXzGf2nh4UzRLq0UoEzddU8r2KyItPbatXg+ueGBC9cNxWEp4K52GOCVuCxAFacG5ucKtspmcVve2un63Tvtwp1cP7t6MWLF98MdPV4bOp8/3wSzVuEtosyN7tC21WLu+t2rx5Jpauy9rz7AyWLypHhCtI75DP93aeo+wPmYrP6Eumqh64a2tdrE9d/IeXoh3OzjuxlfDI2mIvt9qayZkS6KnZ3nVbfBFoTWaHRenHku7mpAHOxgesL6aqUrmbCBch6wchKoyLg8V0OrptaiK7iztRqh5HXRJZSHbqrPRK9AVs49fAj0rVWd1fVI33rIOtIS1YaXZ/6lfjNkK6dhMt13R9+8I+OKFdHsKFlZaQLd0MoLMWdqZUPI9eFFJAjndFaQcXdEOkqTldBh8Tt9sHFkfLjSAG4fANZabbrzFtgu6uYFHZ3bY2bS1opxT4pSBGmfiBXFaRCrpvq4A56a6PrdLNwJZCK1X6ZkaqBCqQLOiSGBeG63QhRPmydF7RSSNc207VGN5ehKQXqwXJIraDCXY7EPkGHh2+xZixAV25nasWzJQq1zqtCahVd3tCdYLurqBRwd9Xk5kr4EJKt8xqQykAF7rq+RroqdXMZ3FKwdV4vUlFJzpeGBNx1vbDkdqaWdnMxoExErcdKSZ7O37x5/fr1y5ffMflP7UW463opuqb54SrcjjIDxTp89SJFaCI4QZ5U0dKFu66XaWvkpCvm5kqr2DJJPUi5FCRBEkEJwPT6O728fPn69fv0mhHbXXXTJdxcCVfmUS6gRLXnVsHQGwpRhBHl6OV3Znmt8PT6zRuSxYr4LkO7KwoZZJ3KAc5nLOfucgMK16ujAgZKWih3pbUB9iaNkmwEKcZJ4AR5ymBzTO0uMFvWveyj7SpClwtaTEd/o56IvxV0jrucH0EQZyi0NvkJSkl7+ToEiRg2glI8jMu+uLh4ZvJI5Ucif6DymKfdhbNls9F1b+RJlVcRXEdHv/zy7RsApKiZSZXUTJn8kcjDw8P1nMjNZPLzZDIhlHBW9JKW9mj4XWgXeoYzzrxFq+Lqb0+zTuR66nT+B/z5lxWTwP79yz+rNDMiEZDCQPn5Z8bJpxQSPhUkKC3tT3lUDGbLBocjdbbsqB4ZDodviXz8+PFPRL58+fHHTz9+SlPEKkWlKpF8AfpzvaEfZE5+wg/0A9EPNdv7ewohCkGdTufvGen6+97py2KV2MvI0lBTwxEKrc2kcsWkp3369InUhV++0E9EvhT9YOS7Dcnn0xku0zijuuu6cmhLDiIQCAkEhE/pZVsFSl5heNz8zJXNAGGE/PFf4nsUswkrJkbH6drLSteMlelfghEFkKoVI7VtJqEO0dFlGmcEs2WZqwLMlv1TDaYkC0eCIWFiXparVfRp//w/SsgrXc/tFyL/BLbk5f++fyB0vadyfp5zX+hd9M7kcodEs2X9wUiZLftYhhKlNgKWppbGa2rH+6XoZr/+9u3bL7/wZvjRX2JeA9qtM/bqdmIDqo3QBWfLnnlKq/6ZVcFEWJeU905JN/Ui9vOlnWjurVvZey5IkMSD95+ZL4ZJJk+jLj7ziHfssg7UIV0Z6AquK5gty4ehXr95bcaoOF0SI5MTxuRjSvNR6s5RuILsTvDd2W+9PrqKzpYVPKmjmisqKoWTNzkszUqfpW68LiNdsvbLHXmFdGWgy8s5W/b965erO9cv012+5UdaxQBwXvtkDlO5yB0c0/QNqNZC101eugyj5GJUs76wIm1TKf+onF4KhPXtyH7r9ba77k6K0JUcJV8fUgpdhXlKwpXzHqRrBV3Mlep1crW7luf1B9KmI1V2dpRm9KdIWF+jN6BaC103TigbjnxeOZXlRX0RvcWmRqNDogYq7HUitZYg8WKzV9HdtZV0rYz4XdtUljJwIV1bRNe2IVUaLnR3bZouBamjbUJKhavQ1OidpuvMO9hOukxW6miLkAqlxKIOu+xMvZvOK6TLriQf9wf/aGMT7orBVWLe/S67u2wRfVUBFTQGoh9kdXcZ8uHLTB81Aalq4NpxZ2pVdI2d6fvLvjs5KZ4PWGZaILW9RFUFV3OdqaRKT5FhpXTROEE6ku0XnOmv7rrgNkjLJVcMaaxDYq10XfYZXbGJZcoGG+7kSpuPdteFlsBlI12ZbNcxo2tsmi1LuxBOki7jrgsNkbIL4+64M7WqdtdsMD33fjrzlHYXmC1LWmZPX2N0pe260A64dtrdxVdqPqmCLrqpOpGpUjHCGWfuTR9MCbLO49tbtRIudNVn9EiQpGU8EcyWte4O4IQz61v1Rqv45r2nG9u8FyNTs9EVvCX/PKvTHYHtonuxC7r4TrWUrG/nFe59+7y3drpO9+5KFnra6Sybt9VyLWCl5ex7+2zuRj/Z7mItux7fejasOO2qq8N3tW3/nJJWetVljEzN1Gfs8RbX3b6uzyhM2uwqUw1bvAl00Th1YmRqJrq8lNXhXNExrZGupu4MjdFdWf1drHm1mVV5TxsKF8YOZvV3DUmj7L13Ym2ArsZuO450lfB3rYeuJu4Mje6u8v6utdBV+5Y5SNc20LWRfJq37XiMrl12pvLIZyWUIT8Vm9zj7F0zPRFCdtvdxSOf1VCGAnRtbo+z20bDteN08chnJZShUTVjU91cUhrsTL3NMvxK6YovntsYuk4bDleTnamZ6YKhDIVqxptFKE9rrBkb6+YKldAGusraLr4GzoD9M10bXQ12c+0CXZkkancdlKLijqsp8zJepelqspsLOCSGO09X2T6jFa096F+uyXY12s3VDrpk5HNJf5dljJGoja5mu7kAXRiZmoWunhjF3rfWQdftTsCFsYNZqSDmjwWfjtZBV9PdXEhXbipse5kj4rqMVk93BC6MTC1HBWjQnd1UtT9j491cgC6M7ipOF+iMBh459CrYF/tid+DC2MFSdIEBTPctbfofl6ZrF9xcSFceutznrrtcsXMxqxwvM9mulbNeL3ZElxg7mIkur+9qnbHKAOZYtrtWTMX8bcX0wtNne0eEdBmnjSx4LWCZcnbZVFjNKHbMdgU3w9W263bFxNbbi535paIzNVO7K3h8cP6h2UEPDGCyhQDgvtg77spCd5cVi3zOMiBk8tV/6ab0GeXOxZODVfnsTocQ6VIjnzMNZtupNafe3yV3Lobz0WyEa+edqUrkc6YA6FXzGcvUsDsQsZWTrgY7JPwXaeLzi0D04DhLEGHK2oNLe3ntfC5OV9vgsttBl3AcjLMEQNe3jsTFLrmykK4qbZf0dxWPHmwdXG1wpoLI50wB0CtsV9H16nckHBDpStJVRZ+x5Bo4bXJzAbp22pkai3wu4e8quQZOG+HC2MHsdFll1sA5bSNcSFcuugrn0y4faigYmboOuloKF0amroGutvlQIw0gXbXT1T43F9K1NrraCxdGpuagK3hcMJdEvjVwWuhDRbry0+X2BprowVX53LYYLoxMzUHXp37+fFrpQw0F3V056NLaLOD9p4dTJZ/TVsPVBrp0kc+pA0LG9bt0dyizZY9js2Xb6uaSsvvOVF3kc/pgtsl2nXkL06yNE3bBUp0tu2w7XC1wpuoin9MDoI3rd+lWFI/POAO2q60+1EiRDafrzXdp8ppflIweTA8izNVUUJf7DeZgtuzd3t6Z3WZZNnWqrJick5kuNfLZGAC9ah5uMlGxXXSdEnBxaz0RQkYNd3et1XZp5wTBaNfgclTYBu6ou2v3nanJyOf0AOhcc4LAbFm5bC/SFdF13wq6qugz6ucERbNlx8y0XSFd7XF36SOfi/i7ys8JQrpQapsT1EJ3F0am5mh3bXBf7GbShdFdufuMXaQr2/sjXfmo2NC+2EhXK+jaSD5NlRHGDmakYpP7YjdVMDI1M12b2xe7yXRhZGpmKsR5969YM2YSdHfloCL0pqLtQrpCSYlN1bvstSohrS6HBw9+QG9qNmmDMzUlNtUw3Kin4vlBLFe/yNpURbp23yGREptqCFHNtaI40mV8/Xa4u4zxXYYwLyMVbLuD5xHS1RK6Hv+QJr9FdGljUw0hqiYqfLpnsdsb9JGuLNJ8Z2pmuiqwXW6PjzDe7WOrPosM20OXNjbVEKJqnBOk9UjAfifvniJdkq42OFN7lfQZDbGpMA/ePUW6uLTB3ZUam5rD32UZ4rtgv9NWDSHSha767O0lbXyXOlsW6YoEI1PztsaT8V3qbFmkC9KF0V35+3pByt6yki4bpckTsde9czHvEmrGGdV+J9qu6O3RduWyXTNn4fzuOKoXB8yWRbqgYGRqLrrcyTFdfjD4orowotmysnuKdAl3F9KVgy6vz+by++irz0gXRqbmoOum7076OBc7o6C7Kx8VvcH9XefevsboQaSrerqCm35AZ25g9GAWaYkzdXXkc2xAyF7hs7CQrkx0tcEhsTryOT6YvSJGwkK6srx8O+haHfkcD4A2x3chXUhXojW+InowHkSYa0VxpEsvu+BMHaVLRFda5HM8ADrXiuJIl16GbaKrAttVWd+zLXTdt4autMjneAC0XREqraarNe6uXgV9Rt5hDHJ1G5GunZcskc8Z/F1IV07ByNQcVCBduenC6C6kqy4dIl1IF9KFdDWxM4+xg7noYusrOfTfJ5M3Nc9o+I4LRqbmoutxEYppJCjjaHhb6MLI1EprtIyj4a0QjB2smq7YJsbWsmOWacG0VJluURrSVTFdYFq2nC+6Xrq2irzpEmcMVzkPd+O2a6voGhb7+daRtvYH2jXYrkyj4ahEVEwhydNnRLpQMTklh78L6ULF1Nc7QLpQMUgX0rWtdKGgoKCgoKCgoKCgNFzUjTcUoY4xU+jm2Y1uDX0p7uTKlEDn8RqCG+la6Ibn+Y66YGK8LMYVf8zlZC+u3wpAKkWrm2g5makhTf9MmZlWNyzRoBx+o145LM2gnLAwzjBPQcWbGTSTT2IbbyiP8Y6NYa6BN0wLgb1zTHRdpoTN9k7o8lBmZG9MZemnltPX0sxe3LCNiVCKVjf8pF43Mm1oTDPoRqxRc9k3fyGtcqISujemwvRTC5pQjngzg2Zyiq3ZgUh+zSVd8+RYn/bWnGZZ46evBrqClBURgxWrJd4ZTBfdEclUlvG+KY29uHHrS6YUrW74Sb1uRNpbc5pBNzxRr4DVaXrliHVvtMrhaVrliDczaCa3GOmSdsFYp5rQJr+jmYEu31sYDa7/9LBIWdMuuLw3Pc78M6MKtHpXphd/pd8+LlSKVjfypE43Mk2nG5Zm0g0jwaAclmZQjnigVjkMdYNyJF1a5ZA3M2qmQrqCufFrj83V8t2BZaIrOBwx26vPcWhMSzFd9KsY22u8ljLSNdNvfZmJLq1uhH0yQmLUDbNPBuUwEgzKEYXRKoelGZTTOzArh76ZUTPV0UUfn4LejT51/GvXSBcTw0+CGWPjjeZV74LLEWtAmVr10+uTGmyXXjehXdPohkFi0k34JE1pwhVGNHfy+/TK4TWqXjm9A6Ny2JvVb7toyUxJb80P77EuTEfbiHL/ahkJYqtUG+mi38Uy134pijC1ycJ210EBugy6YR/0rRkSo25YLWZQDqPrMo0uvXLC2s9QGL1y+JsZNVMVXW5K/80fECM+MT/c2O4amGtGumqiuWY040PzdCefDe8wIu3orunFjT2jVXSZdMMb0nrdyMzM7a6BuWY0KYdnqleOzFOnHP4SGuWIN6ukzxjfeENtB1G5MrnJ4pv0ZaKL3mdsr6W6WFL6L2llIWmdkfnFtY8UaVrdiJNa3cgbdOUBmSV1A25MlCa2fo0+U41ysqmiUm4AAANUSURBVBRGpxz5ZpX4u1BQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBaK68GqY47GhPlTjQuw3HiPnqZ9tLaZPXTfKfPvXLMu0QjrqZd6+sAF3faDrroft66j6gZ7NsKusbqxr6Urpkztd97g641Zgf7XbeXdfdflJrp0n9E3QfaCrpmCbp4RKrvHJMyC94C7wA//BrpCkctZC0SzB12JqoZlYENVuO4k+m1cxzeE6MrPHsChlnoX+T0vRgJoUHFyuOigygTWC71fvI0ejAMM3LpWLUcJSanOu9JOdn0U98b+szckhws6+7PaLzWR9dsMLTPPKL2mTO0z+cD8oPv2OxMSBetX87n0jLM6EA++ZZTG94D6QrPkou67p2wkG5vQCOb6KkJyYv8xTIFjxMHIpNEuZT73Ykzvaeno4wim9pj9zr9sJnIfhEWs2C+08cvvy66XPY5zz52+UHgffZZUMCFHdLleqJ+kRUj+5cxJu9R6IrO9qidkJ+Tf/0ebVbPSEuILYVGShA+LjwAmcByqfe7E7qdXEASZUZWSFfAbpmJ59K/Qrq6WDWuky4JjTggiBAbMb2HfUaZchL2JCVj0T2QLpATu8iDWM4ocGMad369YJNxosfJA5BJMjd5P38ae67IKKKL3yKoZvYP0GWcOYVSB1190JwSn+tGaXf5Yu/JfQ1dfS1d/RS6KAKvCB209rKpb0M+LjqIMknmFt4v6YoyAnT1w3/PWAQyqBmRro3aLkbCmXcFbRdY1bOs7RJ0+Gw2xIy3ydjjlAOz7YrTFWWks11jPumChwAy84t0rb3ddfck2je+d3C+FG33sN3F60TbUtpd+2HjiNyjaXfRs6l09Vll2A/k48IDkAksV5yu73m7K8xI1+4ScIk235heiu2utfYZHbVvRr771LbP1T4jqXuupXNM9Bn3Qe+wq+0zdtPoCryOfX79X85x+LjwIMpEKVecLtqRJYUKM6INfhv0GRfU3/UkrC7N/Mzbt7DPuEl/13TEB02S/q4wWlcYi/3IKaX1d9GzKXTxgGN37hzLx4XP1fm7wtwiuk6Ev0tmNAw8GTFN/nI6596xL7YrvwpHgtDfteXS7MEUrBi3/gMN8aeBUpeMB41tumCMBAoKCgoKCgoKCgoKCkrz5f8BuilIfPv8H7cAAAAASUVORK5CYII=[/img]

A pool of 10 dice is absolutely not substitutable for a pool of 1000 dice.

The SSE of 10d vs 1000d for d20 TN 11 is literally 75 times bigger than the SSE for not rolling at all, and assuming average results.

On the other hand, at 1000 dice, if you want very realistic results, you could just assume the average and come closer than just about anything else that isn't literally rolling 1000 dice.

I am sure we can all agree that actually rolling 1000d20 isn't a legitimate mechanic for anything not run by a computer. So are you suggesting that we abandon the RNG entirely, or are you suggesting something wildly different from any existing systems that will provide you RNG with such minor differentials that most people will say "Why roll?"

[mean_liar]

And all of that notwithstanding, even if such a thing can work, I outright reject the very concept of "to-hit" rolls. All the end-user "grunt work" will need to be done pre-battle. Units will have to be treated as single creatures. The only decisions to make once battle starts is movement and when to active a unit's "special powers". The only dice rolls will be for results, such as damage or whatever. And if you're throwing more than 10 dice for any given thing, then you've done it wrong (and even then, only at the highest end of unit-size).

Any mass combat game is going to have to simulate morale and supply rules, which are a hell of a lot more troublesome than modeling to-hit and damage rules. I'm not sure if this is the best yardstick since I don't read much fiction, but historical battles with thousands of men usually end with most of those men alive: it's the running down/capturing of those attempting to flee after the battle where most casualties occur, and even then it was hardly a slaughter.

Mass combat is much more about tactical considerations and mass and movement affecting psychology than it is strictly about being a skilled combatant. Not only that, but given that once you're in the hundreds, individual results are going to be at the average anyway and you're really talking about Unit A with attack intensity X will always do Y damage to Unit B due to their defense intensity Z, every round. Position and movement matter a hell of a lot more than relative troop skill unless that skill gap is massive... which I suppose can just be rolled into abstract static attack/defense numbers anyway.

[ACOS]

Any mass combat game is going to have to simulate morale and supply rules, which are a hell of a lot more troublesome than modeling to-hit and damage rules. I'm not sure if this is the best yardstick since I don't read much fiction, but historical battles with thousands of men usually end with most of those men alive: it's the running down/capturing of those attempting to flee after the battle where most casualties occur, and even then it was hardly a slaughter.

Oh yeah. When I first started thinking about this thing (this time around, at least), I got kind of excited thinking about how to implement capital acquisition, supply chains, and the like. But then I realized that none of that means a tinker's damn if you can't properly simulate a Helm's Deep reenactment - which is primarily what's being demanded, in addition to the kingdom management (I actually wrote a post a couple of pages back about the need to prioritize which one of those things were supposed to be the primary and which the secondary ... no response, just more fapping to Minas Tirith). That's what I was talking about when I said that all the "grunt work" is done pre-battle.
And just to clarify: "damage" really could be "anything that negatively impacts a unit", not just spilling HP.

Mass combat is much more about tactical considerations and mass and movement affecting psychology than it is strictly about being a skilled combatant. Not only that, but given that once you're in the hundreds, individual results are going to be at the average anyway and you're really talking about Unit A with attack intensity X will always do Y damage to Unit B due to their defense intensity Z, every round. Position and movement matter a hell of a lot more than relative troop skill unless that skill gap is massive... which I suppose can just be rolled into abstract static attack/defense numbers anyway.

Again, apparently Minas Tirith is the basement standard.
As to your point: This is why I find any analysis of any kind of RNG to be mental masturbation. It's also why I've said (twice) to treat units as individual creatures, and just worry about positioning/movement and what kind of results you're trying to achieve, and if dice are needed to keep them to a minimum.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I am sure we can all agree that actually rolling 1000d20 isn't a legitimate mechanic for anything not run by a computer. So are you suggesting that we abandon the RNG entirely, or are you suggesting something wildly different from any existing systems that will provide you RNG with such minor differentials that most people will say "Why roll?"

My initial proposal was to have a table to convert the result of 1d20 to the result of 10^x d20

Now, having looked at that graph, I think we probably only need the 10d20 table (for things like "30d20"), and can just assume average for any stack of at least 100 dice.

[Username17]

Skipping on the rolling is deeply unsatisfying and also not actually realistic. While it is true that with a hundred or a thousand die rolls you are almost certainly going to end up with a relatively even spread of high and low rolls, actual battles aren't nearly so predictable - nor should they be. The rolling of d20s is an abstraction that the game uses to model things quickly and easily. Things aren't actually supposed to break down into distinct 5% increments in the world.

When you scale the battlefield up, you stop keeping track of 5' squares and start tracking larger areas. A platoon may be marching through a "farmlands" zone, but on the small scale there are still irrigation ditches and offal piles and such in that zone. The game isn't tracking it, but there are in fact variances in the terrain that would give some soldiers higher ground bonuses or force other soldiers to move through difficult terrain at crucial junctures.

If these variables aren't being simulated by rolling dice, and they aren't being simulated by exhaustively pixelating all the zones into tiny squares, how are they being simulated?

The die rolls obviously shouldn't be as swingy in their effects as attack rolls in the man-on-man combat minigame. Some sort of heavily curved system seems like something you'd want to do. But equally obviously cutting the die rolls out entirely is simply a dumb idea.

-Username17