Social BS

[Krusk]

I'm working on an RPG Cowboy Samurai right now, and its exactly what it says on the tin. I get its not origional, but whatever. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... uraiCowboy

Its a loose d20 knock off because I want people attacking and doing damage multiple times in a round with minimal 1 hit kills. I'll have to rewrite magic down to say, what a rogue can do with the more moderatly powered wands, but thats the next big rock. Current big rock. How do i do social stuff?

I've gotten this far.

Classes govern your combat stuff, and clans govern the other stuff. So being a level 5 Snake Ninja means you have level 5 ninja powers and level 5 snake powers. The snake ones being the ones that apply to social stuff.

how do I social system? I know I don't want d20's "Roll once and check" stuff, but I'm kind of floundering for something else. Not a huge fan of the second pool of HP we have to track and I use my "Cutting barb" power for 15 Social Damage method.

My thought is rank in clan should roughly equate to a starting point, and then you make some checks and maybe they make some checks back, or maybe its all at the same time? Then we compare end points, and see where everyone is. Really though I'm at a loss, and could use some direction.


I walked through Frank's flowchart, and figure the 6 characters thing might help?

Example Characters
1. Ronin Bonnie Two-Gun – Bonnie worked as an enforcer for the Fox clan before quitting over a disagreement with her Lord. Since then, she has wandered Australia* making her living in a traveling carnival as a trick shooter. Relying on her quick mouth, or even quicker draw to get her out of trouble.
2. Doc Waltham Brown – Waltham is a battlefield medic by trade who got his training from the Ox Clan. After retirement, he settled into the life of an old sawbones and has set up a nice little practice in Goson City.
3. William Armstrong-Musashi – Musashi is in good standing with his lords, the Crane Clan, and has been sent as their preeminent swordsman to round up deserters. His Crane connections are very helpful, as is his sword.
4. Soaring Eagle – Soaring Eagle is known for her connection to the beasts of the world, and she uses this connection to bind their powers onto her allowing her to perform great feats beyond what one considers possible for a human.
5. Saito Earth Weaver – Saito the Earth Weaver possesses the ability to shape the elements, most effectively Earth.
6. Henzo Kagemori “The Ghost” – Little is known about The Ghost outside of myth. If they are to be believed, he can pass through walls, kill a man in a single strike, and disappear in a blast of smoke right before your eyes.

• Sneak into an Imperial Compound. Bonnie can use her quick tongue to talk her way past anyone. Doc is a doctor, and can probably provide services and is rarely unwelcome. Musashi knows imperial custom and can help them blend in. Soaring Eagle can adopt eagle or rat forms to fly in, or move silently. Earth Weaver can use his magic to shift doorways into walls and get past locks. The Ghost can phase through or teleport past any obstacles.
• Fight off a tribe of Wendigo. Bonnie can provide ranged support, while musashi engages with his swords. Soaring Eagle can take a bear form and help form a defensive line. Doc can heal the wounded and Saito can either hurl boulders or make walls. The Ghost can dart around combat exploiting weakness.
• Find Ancient Relics. Bonnie can gather some information about its location from the locals. Doc can brew up some potions to resist disease or whatever preparations are needed. Musashi can talk to his Clan contacts for advice, supplies, or lore about the relic. Soaring Eagle can track the relics to their location. The Ghost can get past most traps, and Saito can destroy anything he can’t.
• Navigate Imperial Society. Musashi’s role is obvious. Bonnie can charm her way past her lack of actual knowledge. The Doc is a doctor and has a vast amount of knowledge on a variety of subjects which he can use to gather information. Soaring Eagle can entice nearby animals to perform acts for him or simply share information. Earth Weaver can use his powers to perform, or simply cause some destruction. Either serves as a distraction. The Ghost can pick pocket and tail anyone who needs it.


*holding pattern name until I can get a real name

[RadiantPhoenix]

Start by writing up a list of scenarios you want your social mechanic to resolve.

e.g.:

• The players make a show of force. Do the antagonists turn and run, or stand and fight?
• The players capture an antagonist. Can they make her talk?

[fectin]

I suggest looking at FantasyCraft and Exalted. I do not suggest directly lifting from either one.

FantasyCraft is a d20 base. I've described it before as 3.5 for people who thought there wasn't enough bookkeeping, and that's pretty accurate. Some of that bookkeeping is an actual reputation and stature system though, so it's worth looking at there. Aside from that, FC also has a separate "stress damage" condition track, which makes it easy to incorporate cutting remarks as an actual combat technique. That may be worth lifting, but you'd want to develop options past the default "take a half action and make opposed checks for 1d6 stress".

Exalted (specifically, 2nd edition) social combat is broken exactly like regular Exalted combat. However, the structure of it is good: it's exactly like regular combat, you just use different stats. So instead of dodge and parry stats derived from your physical stats (regular combat) you use social dodge and social parry stats derived from your mental stats to represent avoiding an argument or brushing it off, etc., and you slowly chip away at your opponent's willpower (instead of health levels), and eventually convince them to do what you want. It's a lot of overhead, but you don't actually have to learn a new system, and it makes discussions feel like real conflicts, instead of play-acting.

[Ice9]

In addition to things you want the social mechanic to do, you should think about what you don't want it to do, and make sure it doesn't do that. Previous degenerate states I've seen in proposed social mechanics include:

* If you do like 10+ small favors for someone, you can cash that in to have them give you everything they own.
* The best strategy is overkill. When haggling on the price of a sword, "give me everything in your shop for free" is a good starting point to use.
* Allowing an unknown person to talk to you is the last mistake you'll make. Any conversation can be escalated to "be my slave for life".
* Beating someone up is a good way to romance them.
* Having a peasant commit seppuku for your amusement is substantially easier than getting a rich guy to lend you a few silver.
* Entering a negotiation requires a pre-negotiation on what the stakes are. And that pre-negotiation might require a pre-pre-negotiation ...

Anyway, don't do those.

[Krusk]

My initial instinct is to make it way over complicated to cover all problems, but be impossible to actually use. Then pare it down to so that its the minimums, maybe even with a couple of known flaws.

Situations to cover
* Convince members of an opposing clan that you are members and totally belong here
* Convince higher members of your clan to do you a favor
* Convince members of an opposing clan to do you a favor
* As above with allied clans.
* Convince saloon girls to sleep with you
* Use your rank to bully lower ranking people into doing things
* Make a show of force do they run or fight? That would have to depend on the antagonists and the show of force used.
* Interrogating prisoners should be a depends on some sort of loyalty factor to the prisoners overlords. Maybe they get to make "Influence checks" to make sure their underlings don't talk?
* Scare townsfolk into paying you protection money

Do Dos
*Allow some characters to be better than others at it
*Have abilities that make them better than they normally are. Maybe passive use, maybe active.
*People have a default position towards you based on prior stuff
*Favors have a shelf life. Potentially based on degree of the favor (I think this reduces apple stacking)
*Honor should mean something. So people should be able to look at you and quickly tell your honor ranking or whatever we call it. Maybe based on titles in game. This should probably mean different things to different clan members. (Note clanless, and used to have a clan are both clans. Along with animal, and Monster who isn't allowed in clans. So its 11 clans in total)
*Doing nice things for people who want nice things done gives you benefits.
*Doing mean things for people who want nice things done gives you penalties.
*There is no initial "I meet you we fight" check. I don't want this to happen at the start of every encounter with every NPC. I'd rather it come up when someone wants to have a longer conversation than 5 words. Maybe something like, if either side intends to fight, skip the system. Maybe this is based on honor score, and maybe its just based on do you have swords out.
* NPCs default to helpfulness levels probably based on your and their honor scores, and how it interacts.
* Starting to think the Band should have a score and so should each player.

Don't Dos
* If you do like 10+ small favors for someone, you can cash that in to have them give you everything they own.
* The best strategy is overkill. When haggling on the price of a sword, "give me everything in your shop for free" is a good starting point to use.
* Allowing an unknown person to talk to you is the last mistake you'll make. Any conversation can be escalated to "be my slave for life".
* Beating someone up is a good way to romance them.
* Having a peasant commit seppuku for your amusement is substantially easier than getting a rich guy to lend you a few silver.
* Entering a negotiation requires a pre-negotiation on what the stakes are. And that pre-negotiation might require a pre-pre-negotiation ...
*Doing nice things for someone who doesn't give a shit doesn't do anything.

[Krusk]

Alright, so I've been doing some drafting and brainstorming. Let me know some pit falls, obvious failings, etc.

Each player starts the game with all factions at 0. As you do stuff factions like, you go up, assuming they tie it to you. If you go kill a guy they hate, and thats a thing they like, but you don't take credit, or make it known it was you, you don't get points. If you do stuff they don't like you lose points. Same rules apply. If you poison someone and get caught, and they dislike poison, you go down. If you don't get caught you don't go down.

You have a score anywhere from -100 to +100 for every faction. Break the range down into ranks with each one. -100 to -90 is "Hated" and if you are hated to the faction A that means they take out bounties on you. If you are hated to the faction B, that means they kill you on sight, regardless of laws. Etc. Maybe -10 to +10 are neutral for all factions and the faction just doesn't know or care about you. +90 to +100 means they love you, and maybe grant a title like Daimyo or Lawbringer or something depending on the group.

Note that you can also belong to factions. Maybe they invite you to join if you hit 20, and if you decline you can never go above 20 in that faction. You can start a game belonging to a faction (and thus starting at 20) and you can join factions during games. If your affiliation score goes below that 20 (or whatever it is) mark during game play, you can get kicked out.

Not having a faction is basically a faction of its own. Gaijin meaning the clan for people who never had a clan. Ronin, the clan for people who were kicked out or left clans. Yajuu the clan for insentient creatures, and Obake for sentient things that are not humans, like Oni and shit.

I also think rank in another group A could/should potentially affect rank in group B.

So that determines your faction rank. Once you have your rank, you make checks to convince people to do stuff. There is probably an easy formula for this, but I am envisioning a chart. Basically if I am Rank 45 in Fox clan, I get a bigger bonus to influence fox clan people than I would if i were rank 22. I also get a bigger, but not as big, bonus to impact people who see the fox clan favorably. I get a penalty to influence people who see the fox clan unfavorably.


I obviously need to come up with some stricter criteria for what each clan wants, and what sort of bonus you get for what sort of action, but before I do I was hoping for some direction so I don't waste time. Next chance to pitch it to the group is soon, and it would start in early Feb if we decide on it. So I've got some time, but not a ton.


Factions I am planning to include, and brief two word summary of them. I will write more on it later, but this is the high level concept. (any better cowboy/samurai clan names you can think of?)
Fox – Sneaky and playful
Dragon – Mighty and powerful
Phoenix – Eternal and Bright
Scorpion – Deceitful and direct
Ox – Strong and Proud
Snake – Sneaky and indirect.
Tortise – Tough and resilient.

Gaijin – Clanless. Those who do not have a clan.
Ronin – Those who had a clan and were cast out or left.

Yajuu – Beast, or general term for insentient creatures.
Obake – Sentient being that is not human.

[hogarth]

In addition to things you want the social mechanic to do, you should think about what you don't want it to do, and make sure it doesn't do that.

Well put. I agree 100%.

[Whipstitch]

I find that when you're in the conceptual stage you might want to narrow the bank of keywords you're using so there's more obvious similarities and contrasts involved and so you don't end up with two word descriptions that just read like "more better," such as the one Dragons currently have. Also, it makes it really easy to generate a quick outline of each clan if you're not just throwing a ton of unrelated adjectives around. For example, I rather quickly created my own clan outline first by writing up a very short list of contrasting qualities and assigned two to each Clan as noteworthy qualities before assigning them one unique shtick each. It sounds stupid, but the questions "Do they like simple clothes or crazy pope hats?" and "Are they mostly honest or are they lying liars?" are more important than just about anything but species when it comes to the first impressions people come away with.

Dog
Keywords: Austere, Honorable, Egalitarian
The Dog Clan is an honorable but understandably cynical lot. They have a long, checkered history of dutifully supporting Dragon Emperors only to be betrayed and discarded by corrupt heirs. This is in part because the Dogs uphold the old ways of filial duty and elder councils--many a Dragon Emperor has felt threatened by the Dog Clan's quasi-democratic internal structure, a situation has inspired many an Emperor to strike first despite little evidence that such councils have ever conspired against an Emperor. These days the relationship between the Dog Clan and the long deposed Dragon Clan is understandably quite frosty. They turn out the most paladin expies.

Dragon
Keywords: Decadent, Dishonorable, Autocratic
The Dragon Clan clearly ascribes to the Great Man theory of history, and the authority of the Clan leader is nominally absolute. Things are more complicated than that in practice but it's still notable that the Dragon Clan has managed to produce more Emperors than any other two clans combined. Of course, how much good that has done them is open to debate--their dramatic rises to power have a funny way of being followed by equally dramatic falls. They're for people who want to rule with an iron fist and don't give two shits about their alignment.

Snake
Keywords: Austere, Dishonorable, Isolationists
The Snake Clan relentlessly champions the status quo, but people suspect that's because they may have already won everything worth having. A supremely pragmatic people, the Snakes have a funny way of defusing 1-on-1 wars before they start and entering larger conflicts only when they have an opportunity to comfortably come in second place with little apparent effort. Unfortunately, that sort of thing attracts a considerable amount of resentment, and it remains to be seen if their good fortune can last. They're for people who like to pretend that nobody has noticed how smug they are.

Boar
Keywords: Decadent, Honorable, Traders
Perhaps more than any other Clan these guys do do the hard work of keeping the grain and sake flowing. Unfortunately, they're also fond of loudly reminding people of that fact, and they are also constantly bugging people about free trade. They're for people who want to make Fat American and Boss Hogg jokes while generally behaving like a used car salesman.

Tiger
Keywords: Austere, Honorable, Warriors
The Tigers are an unruly lot who suck at etiquette but it doesn't seem to slow them down much because they're also a bunch of hard asses. They're for players that want to be a pretty cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything. I don't know how good they are for the game but you're always going to have players who want to solve problems primarily by waggling their dicks at people and then killing them when they get offended, so here's a clan for them. The Tigers are honorable because such players are really good at living with cognitive dissonance.

Monkey
Keywords: Decadent, Dishonorable, Navy/Inventors
The Monkey Clans have the most inventors, scholars and explorers. They're the ones always uncovering shit that people wish had just stayed covered, whether it be a new technology, a previously undiscovered landmass or authentic documents which call into question the legitimacy of the Emperor. They're also a naval power so you can be a scholar who is also a pirate if that's your bag.

[PhoneLobster]

This has been one of those "hold my hand and write my mechanics" threads that I generally find just plain baffling in it's complete lack of mechanical crunch and it's general waffling diddling about. So I've been largely not commenting.

I mean what is anyone supposed to suggest? Even at the absolute basic level you tell us it is some sort of d20 knock off... but we have no god damn idea where or how much it diverges from d20.

If you are close to d20 the answer to "Social stuff? How do?" is pretty much a poorly, but already optimally solved problem at "BS Fairy Tea Party skills vs DCs out the GMs ass, then will save vs things that work a lot like spells". If you've diverged any notable distance from d20 the answer is... "Null Pointer Exception".

Your list of objectives is certainly ambitious, but seems utterly irrelevant to what you seem to actually be waffling on about with all the clan bullshit. It got significantly worse when you adopted Ice9's list of "don'ts" what with it not only failing to be comprehensive for real practical issues but also full of complete bullshit, what with Ice9 being a vocal detractor against basically any social mechanic ever and that list consisting largely of just "shit he or anyone he has seen has flung at social mechanics regardless of validity". It also is a list that is in places directly contradictory of your goals. The "allowing unknown person to talk to you" strawman off the don't list on it's own invalidates pretty much your entire goals list without any further help.

But I think the biggest criticism I have is the way you are getting bogged down in clan rank and clan bullshit. (the whole inexplicable 100 discrete ranks determined by fairy tea party then somehow also converted to modifiers in a "d20 knock off" thing is also mind bogglingly dumb).

You have your goals list already. You know what you want characters to do. Start with mechanics that cover the actual actions and worry about dividing up those actions or somehow applying clan modifiers (from out the GMs ass via a totally superfluous 0-100 clan rank filter) later.

Anything else is wanking about with the fluff while avoiding the real work you need to do to get anything at all off the ground.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Can you show us your game design checklist?

You know, the one with parties of six and three, and sample adventures?

[Krusk]

I mean what is anyone supposed to suggest? Even at the absolute basic level you tell us it is some sort of d20 knock off... but we have no god damn idea where or how much it diverges from d20.

Assume it goes basically the same as d20 with custom classes and maybe revised skills and feats.

I'm not looking for anyone to write anything for me, but give me some direction on what I should be writing and what is a waste of my time. Ill probably pop back in every week or so with current drafts, theories or ideas. Feel free to help or not.

--
Radiant Pheonix, its in word, so the formatting will suck.

Cowboy Samurai
Intro
In Cowboy Samurai, you play as a group of characters known as a Band.
Example Characters
1. Ronin Bonnie Two-Gun – Bonnie worked as an enforcer for the Fox clan before quitting over a disagreement with her Lord. Since then, she has wandered Australia making her living in a traveling carnival as a trick shooter. Relying on her quick mouth, or even quicker draw to get her out of trouble.
2. Doc Waltham Brown – Waltham is a battlefield medic by trade who got his training from the Ox Clan. After retirement, he settled into the life of an old sawbones and has set up a nice little practice in Goson City.
3. William Armstrong-Musashi – Musashi is in good standing with his lords, the Crane Clan, and has been sent as their preeminent swordsman to round up deserters. His Crane connections are very helpful, as is his sword.
4. Soaring Eagle – Soaring Eagle is known for her connection to the beasts of the world, and she uses this connection to bind their powers onto her allowing her to perform great feats beyond what one considers possible for a human.
5. Saito Earth Weaver – Saito the Earth Weaver possesses the ability to shape the elements, most effectively Earth.
6. Henzo Kagemori “The Ghost” – Little is known about The Ghost outside of myth. If they are to be believed, he can pass through walls, kill a man in a single strike, and disappear in a blast of smoke right before your eyes.

Example Expeditions
• Sneak into an Imperial Compound. Bonnie can use her quick tongue to talk her way past anyone. Doc is a doctor, and can probably provide services and is rarely unwelcome. Musashi knows imperial custom and can help them blend in. Soaring Eagle can adopt eagle or rat forms to fly in, or move silently. Earth Weaver can use his magic to shift doorways into walls and get past locks. The Ghost can phase through or teleport past any obstacles.
• Fight off a tribe of Wendigo. Bonnie can provide ranged support, while musashi engages with his swords. Soaring Eagle can take a bear form and help form a defensive line. Doc can heal the wounded and Saito can either hurl boulders or make walls. The Ghost can dart around combat exploiting weakness.
• Find Ancient Relics. Bonnie can gather some information about its location from the locals. Doc can brew up some potions to resist disease or whatever preparations are needed. Musashi can talk to his Clan contacts for advice, supplies, or lore about the relic. Soaring Eagle can track the relics to their location. The Ghost can get past any obstacle, and Saito can destroy anything he can’t.
• Navigate Imperial Society. Musashi’s role is obvious. Bonnie can charm her way past her lack of actual knowledge. The Doc is a doctor and has a vast amount of knowledge on a variety of subjects which he can use to gather information. Soaring Eagle can entice nearby animals to perform acts for him or simply share information. Earth Weaver can use his powers to perform, or simply cause some destruction. Either serves as a distraction. The Ghost can pick pocket and tail anyone who needs it.
Sometimes people don’t show up.
This is why a balanced party is key. Let’s divide our 6 person party into two groups.
• Party 1 is a Bonnie, Musashi, and Saito. This party is obviously a combat machine, but they can use Saito’s stealth, Musashi’s culture, and Bonnies quick tongue to get into the castle pretty effectively. When finding relics, they Bonnie and Musashi have the prework down, and Saito should be able to get them into anywhere they need with enough time.
• Party 2 is Doc, Soaring Eagle, and The Ghost. In this party, Soaring Eagle takes the lead in combat with a bear form while The Ghost can play essentially the same role. Doc can still patch up the wounded, which is probably more important with less warriors. They are a little light in terms of ranged combat, but Doc carries a shotgun and The Ghost most likely has ninja stars or a blow gun. For the social aspects, Doc is the new face, using his vast amount of knowledge to make intelligent choices. Soaring Eagle actually gathers all the information by asking rats, dogs, and pets. The Ghost can provide the human interaction as a tail, thief, or assassin. As for Relic finding, the Doc may simply have heard of it, and Soaring Eagle and The Ghost are the best trackers around. Either of them should be able to navigate the hazards and Doc can make tinctures to protect against anything as needed.
Sample Adventure
In our adventure, the Fox Clan is looking for an ancient revolver, said to hold the power of a thousand suns. Whatever that means. Musashi has assembled a band with the intent of stopping it. The Band must sneak into imperial society in order to view or steal the map to the item held by the Fox General in charge of locating it. From here it’s a race deep into the desert, careful to avoid the Fox General’s troops but also the tribes of Wendigo that live in this area. Once at the cave, they must navigate a series of obstacles (no dice, just “Use power” and “it works”. 1-2 min per obstacle tops) and obtain the revolver.
Sample Campaign
The Snake Shogunate is buying up real estate all across the interior. Whole town’s worth in fact. Those who choose not to sell find themselves harassed by outlaws and driven out. Most have put two and two together, but the other Clans don’t seem interested in stepping in to stop this. Behind the Scenes: The snake clan is building the first railroad across the continent which is expected to make it a lot easier for the Clans to police the region. Could this mean an end to their way of life?

[Username17]

Many social systems fall apart tremendously as soon as you look at an extreme example. Superman thought experiments are quite useful.

Super Dickery. In many "social defense" systems, a powerful character is hard to diplomacize, which causes Superman to default to hostile or at least dickish to pretty much everyone.

No soup for Superman. Superman is an altruist who does not need your soup. A forward looking model shows that there is actually no benefit to you for giving Superman free soup, whether he just rescued your grandmother or not.

Die for the Superman. Individual uses of Superman's powers are worth more than most people. In an absolute value social credit system, Superman can ask people to die for him in exchange for favors that are completely trivial to him.

I'll trade you a paper airplane. Superman's powers don't take a lot of time or effort for him to use. So a relative effort social credit system would predict that you can get Superman to knock down a building in exchange for a paper airplane or a carrot.

Now, these are silly examples, but they demonstrate real problems. Relative effort credit breaks down when peasants talk to dukes in the same way (if not to the same degree), as when office workers talk to Superman.

[Mistborn]

You know maybe superman would be less of a dick if you gave him some soup once and a while.

In all serious through. I've had a nebulous idea about social systems for a while, how do we deal with the "siren problem"? If social characters get "too good" it can warp the universe in weird ways and you get people doing stuff like putting wax in their ears so the talky guy can't talk them into submission. My solution to this sort of thing is that social system need to be opt in rather than opt out, and the stakes are known to both parties at the outset.

[PhoneLobster]

... how do we deal with the "siren problem"? If social characters get "too good" it can warp the universe in weird ways and you get people doing stuff like putting wax in their ears so the talky guy can't talk them into submission...

Isn't that almost literally how literal sirens in a literal fantasy universe actually worked?

But aside from that the problem with the siren problem is that it is basically a bullshit criticism leveled at basically any social mechanic that actually achieves anything of discernible value. The moment you say "Social BS can get you X that you might actually really want" some grognard asshole (on the internets only) is all "you will take my X from my cold dead hands, wax in my ears and sword to the throat of every character that ever tries to be my character's friend!".

The reality is that some stupid assholes pulled this out the claim that "Charm Person" level effects would lead them to kill anyone who might talk to them on sight... but then wouldn't carry through and consistently kill every potential existing charm person caster on sight. It's a bullshit argument, a furfy, a lie and you should not be so concerned with it.

My solution to this sort of thing is that social system need to be opt in rather than opt out, and the stakes are known to both parties at the outset.

Aside from being prenegotiation (something the OP doesn't want, and I think for good reasons)... basically every time it's been negotiate the stakes then Opt in a social mechanic has been a completely worthless (yet over complex for that lack of worth) failure.

And then it also usually does something ridiculously crazy on the side with things like strong motivations to massively over or under bid on the negotiations.

[Ice9]

Isn't that almost literally how literal sirens in a literal fantasy universe actually worked?

Literal sirens live on a rock out in the ocean, and people do cover their ears when they sail past them. In D&D, a group of sirens showing up in town and enthralling people would be a reason to call in the adventurers to slay them. Presumably someone playing a Bard doesn't want that kind of reaction.

The reality is that some stupid assholes pulled this out the claim that "Charm Person" level effects would lead them to kill anyone who might talk to them on sight... but then wouldn't carry through and consistently kill every potential existing charm person caster on sight.

Kill anyone who could cast it on sight? No. But if you have an audience with the king, and you suddenly start casting a spell, you're probably getting stabbed. And if you try casting Charm on someone and fail? They're going to be angry and/or scared, not accept it as a normal part of negotiations. Again, I doubt that someone playing a Bard wants that reaction when they open their mouth.


Opt-in with pre-negotiation is indeed pointless, since you've just moved the context to the pre-negotiation and solved nothing. However, it's not hard to have opt-in for overall magnitude of effect. Limit it to non-siren things as a default, let it escalate higher if both parties agree.

Not "agree to specific stakes", just "agree to high stakes in general". You want the drow to betray their alliance and join your side? Better be prepared to join their side if it goes badly. You just want to buy some poison from the drow? Fine, no worries about enthrallment then.

[PhoneLobster]

And Ice9 pretty much demonstrates my point about how fucking stupid the dumb asshole grognards who present the "siren problem" are. He wouldn't kill a wizard unless they DO cast charm person and fail but he WOULD kill a bard the moment they MIGHT attempt to achieve something by talking.

What a fucking dumb ass.

It's a transparent double standard made out of distraction and a desperate hope that no one will actually sit down and analyze what his claims actually are much less what impact surrendering to them has on game design (ie, no you aren't allowed to have social mechanics that DO anything).

[Ice9]

PL, I can never tell if you're pretending to be dense as a tactic, or really just that dumb.

If a Wizard casts Charm Person on you and fails, you try to stab him / run away. If he succeeded, you can't, because you're fvcking charmed. Same thing with a Diplomancer - if they social-kombatted you, you're not able to stab them because you're too busy giving them a blowjob. And if they failed, its stabbing time.

Now that's already pretty bad, as far as the negotiation looking non-stupid. But it gets worse.

If you're watching a Wizard talk to someone, and then he casts Charm Person on them, you're at the least not going to let him get in a position to do that to you. If a Wizard has a reputation for casting Charm Person on people he talks to, nobody is going to want to talk to him.

So your point is that diplo-mind-fvcking is ok, because as long as the Bard never gets caught doing it, he can still talk to people and not be treated as a menace/pariah.

What the fuck.


Edit: Also, this is now a Diplomacy thread with PL in it. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

[PhoneLobster]

...If a Wizard

Yes that's right waffle on endlessly with more edge cases and provisos for the wizard side of your crazy double standards. Keep on wallowing in stupid for me, nice.

Meanwhile the standard for your social BS side of your scenario remains "the moment the bard opens his mouth" no provisos, no scenarios, no extras.

And "the moment the bard opens his mouth" with the implied "because he might DARE to try to make friends with you" followed by "KILL HIM!". Is your problem, remains your problem and your waffling on with excuses and special explanations for why it's totally maybe sometimes sorta justifiable to sword the charm person wizard based on spell casting delays and reactive actions that don't even exist or bullshit well known reputation as a charm wizard edge cases you just pulled out your ass like it helps at all is only creating a larger gulf in your double standard.

The fact is you need all sorts of provisos and extras before your claims of totes being consistent on the pre-emptive wizard murder seem like they might be remotely realistic. For some reason it never even occurs to you that you are going to need the same if not MORE special exceptions and provisos before your claim that you totes will always kill people trying to make firends with you by saying hi can begin to sound remotely reasonable.

[Ice9]

Did you even read the post, or are you just on autopilot?

If a diplomancer talking to you has the same effect as a Wizard casting Dominate Person, then it's going to be treated the same way. If a Wizard who's known to go around casting Dominate Person walks up and starts casting a spell at you, you're generally going to go hostile. If a diplomancer who's known to mindfvck people by talking walks up and starts talking to you, you're going to go hostile.

Your whole argument is "people just don't worry about diplomancers, because shut up". Is the point of your system that only PCs use diplomancy and nobody expects the spanish inquisition the PCs? If so, you should say that. I mean, I think it makes the NPCs kind of look like chumps, but it makes more sense than expecting players to hold the idiot ball, at least.

[PhoneLobster]

the same effect as a Wizard casting Dominate Person

Oh yeah, shift those goal posts. Shift them HARD. I'm sure you'll eventually score a point if you shift them far enough and wide enough.

In the mean time you do a really good job of demonstrating just how shitty your entire argument is for me. I mean, I really don't need to even make this post.

[Omegonthesane]

I hate to say it but on balance I'm with PL on this one.

If the world-famous Charmy McSmarm has a Diplomacy DC equivalent to Charm Person, you're going to want to be on guard negotiating with him, because you know ahead of time he's just so damn charming. Likewise if Enchantington the Wizard is known for casting Charm Person as an icebreaker before trying to sell you snake oil, you're going to take precautions appropriate to talking to a very charming person who is nonetheless likely to sell you snake oil. In neither case is the risk high enough to justify murder.

(Though on rereading it's odd to me that the roll to "convince" a Charmed person to give you a blowjob after making sure you don't have AIDS is Charisma VS Charisma instead of Charisma VS Wisdom in an edition where Wisdom is what adds to your Will save. Clearly if they have reason to think you have AIDS when they don't then giving you a blowjob is an obviously harmful order.)

It's arguable that if Charmy McSmarm is instead using at-will Dominate with his Diplomacy rolls then the Diplomacy system is broken. This does not translate to reacting to all attempts at making buddy-buddy with murder.

[TiaC]

I think that what these posts are showing is that most Enchantments would be highly illegal. Like, having Charm Person in your spellbook would see you jailed for a few years.

The idea that there are people who could win your trust in a few seconds is pretty threatening to most societies.

[DSMatticus]

If the world-famous Charmy McSmarm has a Diplomacy DC equivalent to Charm Person, you're going to want to be on guard negotiating with him, because you know ahead of time he's just so damn charming. Likewise if Enchantington the Wizard is known for casting Charm Person as an icebreaker before trying to sell you snake oil, you're going to take precautions appropriate to talking to a very charming person who is nonetheless likely to sell you snake oil. In neither case is the risk high enough to justify murder.

Enchantington the Wizard walks up to you unannounced and begins casting a spell on you. Do you stab him in the face, yes or no? He could be casting prestidigation to help with your obnoxious body odor. He could be casting dominate person.

Charmy McSmarm walks up to you unannounced and begins saying words at you. Do you stab him in the face, yes or no? He could be asking for directions. He could be making you his bitch.

The correct answers (fuck your opinions) are yes and yes. A diplomancer's words are a weapon in the exact same way an enchantment specialist's spells are a weapon. That doesn't mean everything an enchantment specialist does with their spells is enslave people, and it doesn't mean everything a diplomancer does with his words is enslave people. That doesn't mean you should stab every wizard you see because silent spell and still spell exist, and it doesn't mean you should stab every person who tries to talk to you because they could be a diplomancer. But it does mean that when someone walks up to you and points a weapon directly at you, you should treat that as a hostile action and respond appropriately. And if the diplomancer's words are a known weapon, then a diplomancer talking to people really is a hostile action (unless basic communication is distinct from social combat in the setting).

If you have the power to use your words as weapons, you should not wave them around, and you should not expect people to respond passively when you wave them around. Open-carry protests are fucking horrifying. When a bunch of people carrying assault rifles show up at a coffee shop, that's not fucking okay. The only thing that makes the diplomancer instance hard to grok is that in the real world the idea of responding to words like they're an assault rifle is outrageous, but we aren't talking about the real world; we are talking about a world where someone can enslave you over small talk.

Edit: Sirens don't get to sing to people. Clowns wearing camo don't get to point realistic-looking water pistols at strangers. People wearing explosive vests don't get to ride the bus. The list goes on and on and on. People are justified in expecting that they won't be exposed to dangerous weapons during their everyday life.

[zugschef]

Enslaving people by talking should obviously be like casting a spell otherwise there will always be a double standard.

[momothefiddler]

How do we, in the real world, react to that sort of thing?

Say, to cult leaders. They've demonstrated an ability to convince people of their opinion even when those people were against it to start. From what I've seen, the general response is to a) not get in situations where they have a lot of opportunities to discuss their opinions with you and b) warn your loved ones to do the same. Then there are the people who misestimate the amount of time they can hold out and go because they're curious and end up staying. I figure as long as diplomancy takes a long enough time that someone can reasonably walk away before it overwhelms their predetermination to walk away (or they think it does), no weapons need be involved. Shorter than that and you need to find a more direct way of keeping the diplomancer from talking to you.