OSSR: Ars Magica 5th edition

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OSSR: Ars Magica 5th edition

Post by Username17 »

virgil wrote:I'd love to see Ancient History and Frank throw down and review the Ars Magica 5E core book, since it's about 10 years old now
Not gonna happen, Ancient History is busy on other stuff. I'll try to be team nostalgia and team rage.

OSSR: Ars Magica
5th Edition

Image
Yes, that Jonathan Tweet and that Mark Rein • Hagen. Sort of.

OK, for Ars Magica 5th edition we have to start at the fucking cover, because that's where the weirdness starts. This book proudly states that is is “Created by Jonathan Tweet & Mark Rein • Hagen,” which would be pretty impressive if true. But it's not. This book was not touched at any point by Jonathan Tweet or Mark Rein • Hagen, not even with a stick. None of the people who actually worked on this book get on the cover. This blatant fuckery extends all the way to the Amazon listing, where Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein • Hagen are given first billing as “authors” despite having not written a single fucking word on this project.

I can understand why the actual project lead would want to do this: David Chart is not someone you've probably heard of. He mostly contributed to nWoD as a C-team member (so one of the writers on shit like the Circle of the Crone covenant book, not any of the main lines), and as a B-lister on even more minor titles like Witchcraft (for which he did the Rosicrucian Covenant book). Meanwhile, Tweet and Rein • Hagen are big names that you've heard of. Tweet was part of the triumvirate that made 3rd edition Dungeons and fucking Dragons, and Rein • Hagen created Vampire the Masquerade. The two of them made games which dominated the RPG market for over a decade, and it's very difficult to find a gamer that doesn't have appreciation for at least something that one or the other created. If I heard that Tweet and the Dotmeister had come together to make something, you're damn right I'd be interested. But in this case, this is a lie. Tweet and the Dotmeister did create Ars Magica, but they did so 15 years, four editions, and three companies earlier. Hands have been washed so many times between when Tweet and Rein • Hagen had anything to do with this project (or each other) that this book might as well be crediting the author's parents or Gutenberg or something. Imagine if D&D 5th edition proudly said “Created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson” on the front instead of mentioning any of the actual contributors. It's basically that.

On the credits page, they list David Chart as “Fifth Edition Design & Project Management” and then nine more people on “Fifth Edition Design Contributions.” The first name on that list is Tom Dowd of Shadowrun fame, but since the book has already established that it is willing to outright lie to me about who is responsible for it by name checking people who worked on previous editions, I have no inclination to trust this. This version (along with the 4th edition) is made by Atlas Games, and Atlas Games is attempting to con you out of money by pretending that they have much bigger names working for them than they actually do.

Ars Magica is a fantasy heartbreaker from the late 80s. It was fairly innovative for the time, but its DNA is almost undetectable in modern fantasy games. However the game must have been made of golden karma droplets because the two writers went on to make Vampire: the Masquerade and Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition, and the editor was Lisa Stevens who went on to found Paizo and create Pathfinder. There haven't been more than 18 months in the last 18 years when the #1 selling RPG in the world wasn't created in part by an Ars Magica alumnus. But that midas touch only applied to the first edition, later editions were penned by people who went on to writing B-team or C-team shovelware books for White Wolf and ultimately, forgotten.

Looking through Ars Magica, a lot of things will look very familiar if you are familiar with Vampire. That is because Masquerade was originally being written as Ars Magica 1999, and was changed to be about Vampires (and use dicepools) at the last minute after Rein • Hagen went to a gaming convention and saw the unveiling of TSR's Ravenloft stuff while carpooling with the Shadowrun guys. While Ars Magica ended up having shockingly little impact on D&D, it had a tremendous impact on Storyteller games. The World of Darkness in its entirety is basically the real third edition of Ars Magica, and every edition of “Ars Magica” since then has just been various fan boys taking control of the license in order to argue with each other about how many World of Darkness easter eggs should be in canon.

This edition has 16 chapters and 5 Appendices, and I'll try to plow through this as fast as possible.

Chapter One: Introduction

The Introduction is a numbered chapter. Deal with it.

Image
The intro fiction reads like medieval Dragonball fanfic

The Intro chapter is 5 pages, of which four are text and one is a full-page that is attempting to look like a full color medieval wood block print. Mostly it just looks bad, but apparently there are pig-dudes or something. I think it is in reference to the half-page opening fiction. The half-page opening fiction is from the POV of a shit covered peasant who has no idea what is going on while fairies are attacking his village to burn it to the ground. Most of the people are hiding in the church, and a witch shows up with her companions to fight them off. Her companions pretty much stand around with their dicks in their hands while she Dragon Balls it up and wins. Now this is the sort of random fantasy fanfic that shows up in every fantasy setting, but in Ars Magica this is actually relevant.

First of all, the whole thing where Wizards Rule, Fighters Drool is hard coded and accepted by the system. Rather than pretend that it is a valid life choice to not have phenomenal cosmic power, in Ars Magica the players are asked to take turns playing incredibly powerful Wizards. Thus, Ars Magica came up with a solution to the linear warriors / quadratic wizards problem of fantasy heartbreakers back in 1989, and the fact that no major game since then has duplicated that is very strange to me. You'd think that someone in the balance obsessed days of late 3.5 or early 4e D&D would have gone that way, but no one did. There really are only three solutions to the Wizards/Warriors problem (nerf Wizards until they can't have nice things, let Fighters turn into god damn super heroes, or take turns playing an overpowered Wizard), and Ars Magica implemented one of them at the beginning of the Bush Senior presidency and mysteriously no one else has followed.

And it's actually cramming a bit more into there. In Ars Magica, not only do players take turns playing ridonkulously powerful Magi, but they also take turns playing shit covered peasants who don't know what's going on. These expendable NPCs are turned into PCs on a rotating basis across the players, which gives them more personalities and also allows players to take suicidal actions from time to time without running the game off the rails – at the cost of every player having to spend a certain amount of time in the trenches playing mooks. Also, Christian churches are anti-magic zones and thus places you could hide from fairies or witches – and fairies are total dicks in this setting. So all in all, surprisingly information dense for a half page fanfic piece in italics.

We start out the introduction proper with a “Welcome to Ars Magica” section that begins ranting about dragons, angels, fairies, demons, and the Order of Hermes. This represents a major change in focus, if not in content, from earlier editions. Ars Magica has always been set in “Mythic Europe,” which is basically the early 13th century of Europe but magic is real. In the early editions, this was portrayed as “mythic EUROPE,” where the wizards were secret and the world was basically recognizable so long as you didn't stray too far into into the woods. 5th edition instead is basically “MYTHIC europe,” where armies of faireis come and burn things to the ground and angels run around doing shit, and setting books rant about how crystal sphere theory is literally true and there isn't any universal gravitation. It's still “early 13th century Europe, but magic is real,” but now the magic is “unquestionably real” and takes the place of normal physics and everything is fucking crazy on a stick. This is one of the things that can happen when promoted fanboys are allowed to run off with an established setting. When David Chart got his hands on Ars Magica, it was already 15 years old, so he'd presumably been playing this game since he was a teenager and had crawled so far up his own asshole that ranting about magic physics had basically become the game to him.

The segment also boasts that Ars Magica is “widely regarded” as having the best magic rules “of any roleplaying game.” Which is just... wow. That was actually probably never true, unless you have a very restrictive personal definition of the word “widely.” There was probably a period in the early 90s when you could get a sizable minority of gamers to nominate Ars Magica as having the best magic rules, but with competition from Earthdawn, Mage, Shadowrun, Fantasy Hero, GURPS Technomancy, and all the rest, that certainly wasn't true for long. The rules of Ars Magica looked like a late 80s fantasy heartbreaker because that is what they were. By 2004, when this edition came out, boasting that Ars Magica is widely thought of at all is rather stretching the point, and it probably wouldn't make many peoples' top 3 from a rules perspective.

There's a Basic Ideas subsection, where the author tries to bring up the main points of Ars Magica. I don't think it does a terribly good job, where it seems to think you need to be eased in to the idea that the characters aren't assumed to be wandering adventurers, but thinks that the only information you need about the grog concept is that they are “supporting cast” and that a player might play more than one. Considering that players are more likely to come to Ars Magica through Vampire than D&D these days, and had been for a decade when this edition came out, that's kind of weird to me.

Now we get into the “Structure of the Book” section where the author narrates the table of contents in case you missed it the first time. That's where we learn that Chapter 2: Order of Hermes describes the Order of Hermes. So, thanks for that. Moving on, we then get into “Dice Rolls,” where the game explains how to roll its fucking dice on page 6. This is good. Page 6 is a totally reasonable place to put that information. It's 2004 and people are still putting information where it might do some good. Much better than how SR5 kept that information secret until page 44, and infinitely better than how Scion didn't mention that dice are even rolled until page 171. Honestly, I shouldn't even have to call this out as good book design, but considering how decadent and insane book design got a few years later, apparently I do.

The dice mechanics themselves are basically about what you might see in Cyberpunk 2020 or any other flat RNG game made in 1989. You roll a d10 and add bonuses, with fumbles and criticals checked for on magic numbers. The only part where this seems at all weird is that even though rolling high is good, you roll for fumbles when the d10 comes up “10” and roll for criticals when the d10 comes up “1.” That's the kind of deliberately backwards sort of thing that various heartbreakers led off with in the late 80s to try to change shit up, but it honestly doesn't make a lot of difference. They also continue their trend of being senselessly contrary by calling the difficulty number the “ease factor.” Higher ease factor numbers mean that it's less easy, so you have to roll higher to succeed. Look, it was the eighties, alright? People were just breaking out the the THAC0 mold, and having some pointless double negatives in action resolution equations was simply normal. Not that this in any way excuses the failure to clean this shit up in two thousand and fucking four, but apparently David Chart is still living the dream where Ars Magica was still edgy and new after the people who first played it had had kids that were now old enough to play it themselves. The chance to confirm a critical is much higher than your chance to confirm a fumble, so people score surprising success on about one roll in 15, and get molested by dick wolves less than one time in 30. The thing that makes it dickish is that when you roll to confirm a fumble, the Storyguide decides at that point what your chances of confirming actually are, choosing from 10% to 65% depending on how much they want you to get fucked by those dick wolves. Supposedly, the average chances is supposed to be 10%, but since players don't usually have to roll dice at all in good conditions, in my experience the Storyguide will usually ask you to roll about 3 “botch dice,” putting your fumble confirmation chance at 27%.

There's a chart that shows you what ease factors correspond to what difficulty of task, and these are a bit tautological but more helpful than in many games. Of course, we're still saying things like “Talented or skilled characters succeed about 70% of the time,” rather than telling us what sorts of tasks are in the game that talented or skilled characters are expected to succeed on about that often. The percentages listed on the chart are wrong, by the way, since they are based on the idea of characters rolling a 1-10 die. But actually it's a 2-9 die with two special numbers on it. So when it says you have a 70% chance of success, it actually means you have an 80% chance of success because only 10 and 2 produce results less than 3. It's very weird to me that the fifth edition of the game is written by someone who doesn't know what the chances of an Ars Magica die rolling a 3 or higher are. That seems like pretty crucial information that a game designer ought to know.

The final page of the introduction is a glossary which defines some extremely random words. Like, it doesn't have important game terms like Ease Factor or Botch, but does name check the 8th century wizard Bonisagus. It's sort of a window into the author's mind – trivial details of the backstory from five hundred years before the game get space in the glossary and important game terms that mean the exact opposite of their natural English definitions do not.

Next up: We deal with what's really important (to Ars Magica grognards): minutiae about the Order of Hermes!
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Re: OSSR: Ars Magica 5th edition

Post by Nath »

FrankTrollman wrote:OK, for Ars Magica 5th edition we have to start at the fucking cover, because that's where the weirdness starts. This book proudly states that is is “Created by Jonathan Tweet & Mark Rein • Hagen,” which would be pretty impressive if true. But it's not. This book was not touched at any point by Jonathan Tweet or Mark Rein • Hagen, not even with a stick. None of the people who actually worked on this book get on the cover. This blatant fuckery extends all the way to the Amazon listing, where Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein • Hagen are given first billing as “authors” despite having not written a single fucking word on this project.

I can understand why the actual project lead would want to do this: David Chart is not someone you've probably heard of. He mostly contributed to nWoD as a C-team member (so one of the writers on shit like the Circle of the Crone covenant book, not any of the main lines), and as a B-lister on even more minor titles like Witchcraft (for which he did the Rosicrucian Covenant book). Meanwhile, Tweet and Rein • Hagen are big names that you've heard of. Tweet was part of the triumvirate that made 3rd edition Dungeons and fucking Dragons, and Rein • Hagen created Vampire the Masquerade. The two of them made games which dominated the RPG market for over a decade, and it's very difficult to find a gamer that doesn't have appreciation for at least something that one or the other created. If I heard that Tweet and the Dotmeister had come together to make something, you're damn right I'd be interested. But in this case, this is a lie. Tweet and the Dotmeister did create Ars Magica, but they did so 15 years, four editions, and three companies earlier. Hands have been washed so many times between when Tweet and Rein • Hagen had anything to do with this project (or each other) that this book might as well be crediting the author's parents or Gutenberg or something. Imagine if D&D 5th edition proudly said “Created by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson” on the front instead of mentioning any of the actual contributors. It's basically that.
For someone trying to be on team nostalgia and team rage at the same time, such beginning was quite appropriate :mrgreen:
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Post by Orca »

I think Tweet was involved as late as Ars Magica 3rd (edit: & White Wolf owned the game for at least a part of 3rd edition.) Though Gygax had influence on his game for an edition or two past the original, so the parallel's still good.

On the dice thing, you used to occasionally get d10s numbered from 0-9 and the 0's as botch chance probably made a lot more sense then. Got nothing on the 1's as crits.
Last edited by Orca on Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Archmage Joda »

I think that their particular definition of "widely thought of as having the best magic rules" means on rpg.net forums, where nearly every thread I've seen asking what system had the best magic rules included several posts answering Ars Magica.

By the by, what system today would you say has the best magic rules?
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Post by Mask_De_H »

My money's on Frank saying Shadowrun 4th, given its elegance and his involvement with the product.

Long odds on HERO because if you can mathhammer it, you can do fucking anything.
FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.
K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
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Post by Username17 »

What makes the magic system the best will of course depend on what you want it to do. If you truly want it to be absolutely freeform, you have to go to Munchhausen. If you want it to have a defined system of magic physics, then you need to go for a system like Shadowrun which has them. If you want something high magic with clear rules and defined effects, you need something like 3rd edition D&D. If you want something with realistic magic, you need a game that doesn't have magic at all because magic doesn't really exist. However, the author of Ars Magica says why he thinks Ars Magica is the best:
Ars Magica, 5th edition wrote:Ars Magica is a game about magic, and its rules for magic are widely regarded as the best in any roleplaying game. They combine flexibility and rigor, allowing you to create powerful wizards who can do almost anything, while providing clear guidelines on just how powerful a wizard needs to be to do anything you can think of.
And by those criteria, HERO is the best magic system. No question.

The point system of HERO can do way more things than Ars Magica can, and since it's an effects based system it is much more clear what can be done and how many power points you need to do it. A few other points based systems come kind of close to the "flexibility and rigor" of HERO, but Ars Magica sure fucking doesn't.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote:You'd think that someone in the balance obsessed days of late 3.5 or early 4e D&D would have gone that way, but no one did. There really are only three solutions to the Wizards/Warriors problem (nerf Wizards until they can't have nice things, let Fighters turn into god damn super heroes, or take turns playing an overpowered Wizard), and Ars Magica implemented one of them at the beginning of the Bush Senior presidency and mysteriously no one else has followed.
I'm going to take a stab at this. Character creation and roleplaying in modern games is a huge commitment. Spending more time thinking about your character than actually playing said character is totally normal.

Now, the obvious solution to that (and I'll be upfront by saying I don't know if or how AM does this) is to make people create a small stable of characters per player and have them rotate through that. Of course, then you're also running into the problem of the Law of Conservation of Detail and some people will resent the fact that El Ravager is taking up some of Mat von Galficus II's screentime.

It's a solution, but I'm not surprised that more people haven't thought of it. It requires people to completely rethink how they view their narrative relationship to TTRPGs as they're played. I certainly wouldn't try it for a fantasy game that didn't start at Wheel of Time's midway point or a superhero game that didn't start at post-Albion The Authority level. And not just because of the disparate power levels between muggles and superhumans.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Prak »

Ok, as much as I hate the actual Dragonball series... I'd be down with a medieval dragonball verse fic. By which I mean, the knights of King Arthur questing for the dragonballs to bring Arthur back from the dead, or some such.
...I may need to now go write a Knights of the Round Table fic that is a loose DBZ crossover.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Prak wrote:Ok, as much as I hate the actual Dragonball series... I'd be down with a medieval dragonball verse fic. By which I mean, the knights of King Arthur questing for the dragonballs to bring Arthur back from the dead, or some such.
Apropos of nothing, I've been using the homily 'it's harder to design challenges for Goku than for King Arthur' for years.

This is probably why very few non-superhero games even attempt to consciously tackle the problem of high-power campaigns. You have a lot of games that claim they do such as Exalted and 4E D&D, but as far as I know only 2E and 3E D&D even attempted to sketch out and create a satisfying campaign arc for high-power characters.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Ancient History »

Prak wrote:Ok, as much as I hate the actual Dragonball series... I'd be down with a medieval dragonball verse fic. By which I mean, the knights of King Arthur questing for the dragonballs to bring Arthur back from the dead, or some such.
...I may need to now go write a Knights of the Round Table fic that is a loose DBZ crossover.
Way ahead of you.
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Post by Prak »

That is actually exactly the cartoon I was thinking of, I just couldn't remember it's actual name.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Neon Sequitur »

I can't think of anyone less qualified to "review" Ars Magica.

Have fun, guys.
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Post by Prak »

Well, Frank has a pretty good basis in the history of rpg design, human history, and politics, as well as seeming to have a good grip on pre-renaissance "science." So I'd say he's pretty damned well qualified.

Meanwhile, just given your post, and your post count, and a hazy memory that you're another putz who came along to say how we "just don't get Ars Magica, man..." I can surmise that you're a ars magica fanboy that is so far into the barrel of cocks you've forgotten there's anything but cock. So I would imagine that you would probably be far less qualified to review Ars Magica, in much the same way that a christian is unqualified to give a review of the bible.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by erik »

I don't think that's fair to Christians. It is more like Neon is unqualified in the same way in that an illiterate snake-handler is unqualified to give a review of the bible.

On its face Neon's little jab is preposterously stupid. I mean we have fucking Silva on this board. That Neon "can't think of anyone less qualified" is mostly a reflection on that he simply cannot think.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

I meant more that a person who has bought into the bible is unqualified to critically review the bible.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

It doesn't bother me that Neon Sequitur thinks ill of me. I don't think of him at all.

OSSR: Ars Magica
Chapter 2: The Order of Hermes

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Yep. Here we go.

So the Order of Hermes is an ancient and secret organization of supernatural creatures who have might powers and a pretentious code of conduct. They are divided into 13 groups descended from a single bad-ass progenitor who are each in charge of creating new members within them and which have various political infighting against each other. But on the small scale, individuals from the different branches join together and share their different mystic insights and solve problems together like they were groups of player characters or something. Also, one of the 13 groups is named “Tremere” and they are dicks.

If that sounds exactly like Vampire: the Masquerade to you, then um, yeah. It does. That is because the first draft of Vampire: the Masquerade was literally Ars Magica updated to the near future, and the whole Vampire thing was a last minute palette swap because Rein•hagen successfully noticed that Vampires were hot at the time and you could probably get your dick wet a lot more with goth chicks if you made a game about Vampires than if you made a game about Wizards.

This chapter is 8 pages of what is in essence useless prattle. See, Ars Magica is at this point 15 years old and was in its fifth edition. Over the years, the game line had been in the hands of Lion Rampant, White Wolf (yes, that White Wolf), Wizard of the Coast (yes, that Wizards of the Coast), and finally Atlas Games. So first of all, there is a huge amount of back story in this game, and secondly a huge amount of it is produced by one company and considered non-canon by the adherents of the game as presented by another company. So it's perhaps unsurprising in that light that what the author thinks is so important that it should come before the character generation rules is a Nicene Creed dictating which major events happened and by process of elimination which did not. Very importantly, in this version house Tremere is not overrun by Vampires. But they also want you to be very clear that the stuff in the Mysteries book from 4th edition did happen, and that is why several houses are mystery cults.

And you know what? You don't actually care. Even if you were intent on playing the game, the fact that a bunch of guys from house slytherin got face stabbed when it was revealed that they were death eaters three hundred years ago is only modestly interesting. Certainly not as interesting as explaining what is going on now or how you can start playing. There's a weird drawing of a person on each house, which I guess is supposed to be a medieval drawing of the Founder (Founder is capitalized because reasons) of that house, and not anything you even might care about like the house symbols.

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All 13 houses have their own heraldic shields that are not in this chapter and you do not care.

The Order of Hermes has seven traditions, which are set up as sort of a weird oath thing that is probably based on the Hippocratic Oath. Note that this is very similar in concept and presentation to the bit at the beginning of 1st edition Vampire: the Masquerade, but Ars Magica obviously has squatter's rights on it. While the Hermetic Oath came before the Camarilla Traditions, the latter “fits” much better. Apparently Bonisagus wrote in an exception for Wizards War into the no fighting clauses over two hundred years before there was a Wizards' War. It all just seems unlikely. It doesn't read like something that was declared at the beginning and then passed down through the centuries, it looks like something that was written after the dynamics of the game had been settled on to create some rules for the player characters – which of course it was. The Camarilla Traditions flow much more naturally in the setting, presumably because the Dotmeister was writing them in from the beginning. I genuinely don't know why the oath hasn't been rewritten to have more irrelevencies and addenda in it, this is the fifth fucking edition. When I had to do the Hippocratic Oath, we had asterisks on almost the whole thing and the thing I literally swore to do was to uphold those parts of the Hippocratic Oath expected of a modern doctor.

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Cutting for the stone!

The real meat of the chapter is only a page and a half at the end, where it talks about the relationship between the order and society. This is where it talks about what your place is in the world and what you might want to care about. It's been a while since I read the old Ars Magica materials, but I really don't remember it being like this at all:
Ars Magica, 5th edition wrote:Relations between the Order and the Church are officially non-existent. The Order is well aware that the Church, with God’s backing, could wipe them out with no problem. The Church is well aware that Hermetic magi are very powerful, and that at least some are good Christians.
Wat.

Last I checked, Mages were hiding and had a sort-of masquerade going. This book presents it instead as them being quite public but having rules forbidding them from dealing directly with mundane people from outside their covenants. We've also gone from the Divine being a mysterious and ineffable force to God being the all powerful creator of the universe who “backs the Church, the Jews, and the Muslims.” It's just... weird. How you're supposed to have a world that looks anything like medieval Europe with non-hidden Wizard Towers and an interventionist God who specifically likes both Christians and Muslims is beyond me. This game is physically set during the Fifth Crusade, and the forces of Pope Honorius III are massing to attack Cairo because the Church believes that God doesn't like Muslims. If the Church doesn't believe that... just... what the fuck is supposed to be happening?

This is basically the problem with announcing the world isn't materialist in nature. Our world is pretty aggressively mundane and has extremely mundane causes for all its historical events – even those events that were caused by people who believed in magic (which was almost all of the people for most of history). Massive holy wars happened because when popes and kings prayed to gods for advice they heard nothing but the whispers in their own minds. If there's an actual literal God who is on actual sides and people can know what side that is? None of that shit is going to happen.

Anyway, the basic idea is that you have what is basically a monastery – a small self contained communal economy outside of town that is led by literate people and engages in limited trade with the lords and cities. Your monastery is called a “covenant” and the leaders of that monastery are fucking Wizards rather than priests. The big difference in presentation here from the old material is that your covenant isn't secretly led by Wizards, Europe just has four estates (the Nobility, the Church, the Cities, and the Fucking Wizards). This is so ridiculous that I can't even really engage with it.

And last before I leave the chapter, I guess I'm going to have to talk about Dominion. Cities, we are told on page 15, often have Dominion Auras. “What the fuck is that?” a new reader might ask. Well, that's an excellent question, so you should probably go to the index and find out what the heck that is about. It tells you to look... on page 15. Because the Index is assembled by a computer indexing program and is practically useless. The actual place to look for this information is page 183, where it talks about “Dominion Auras” and “Divine Auras” interchangeably on different parts of the page, but where you really really want to look is page 188 where it actually tells you that yes, the reason why the text talked about Dominion Auras but the table talked about Divine Auras and had no space for Dominion Auras was that those words mean the same thing.

Chapter 3: Character

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About 25% of the time, yes.

The “Character” chapter is 19 pages, but the next chapter and the one after that are about aspects of a character (Virtues and Flaws for chapter 4, Abilities for Chapter 5, and if those sound like Masquerade character sheet values. they sure do, don't they?). Anyway, there are three kinds of characters in Ars Magica: Magi, Companions, and grogs. The Magi are better than you. Like a mid-level D&D Wizard. The Companions are badass compared to a normal person, but they aren't Wizards so they barely count. They are like BMX Bandit to the Magus' Angel Summoner. And finally, grogs are basically just dudes. They might have combat skills or they might be ostlers or blacksmiths or something. Their purpose is to fill in necessary jobs in your covenant like barrel maker or sentry.

Players have two or more characters and switch between them as needed, taking turns taking out the big guns and being onscreen with the weavers and potash makers that the magi of other players have to deal with to get a proper window and curtains in their lab.

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This is, to everyone who didn't work on this project, the central conceit of Ars Magica. This “troupe play” thing is the reason that everyone who wants to discuss RPG design theory needs to study Ars Magica, and it stands everything about the standard Gygaxian model on its head. Just for starters, class balance isn't an issue. Wrap your brain around that. It's not some Oberoni argument that class imbalance is acceptable with a good MC, or a Captain Hobo argument that narrative imbalance is acceptable if characters have similar numbers, it's that it is literally just not even an issue that one of the classes makes you Goku and another makes your Krillin. It has completely different problems from the MC and PC model that almost every RPG since Blackmoore has embraced. Difficult game design problems that fantasy gaming has wrestled with for forty years like Fighter/Wizard balance and character replacement simply aren't issues in the first place with this system. But of course, it has numerous other problems which I guess we'll talk about in chapter sixteen, because the author thinks this entire radical re-imagining of the fundamental structure of an RPG is scarcely worth discussing and simply gives us a page citation to page 219. Spoiler alert: troupe play ultimately gets about a page and a half of discussion because the author has no idea what is important or interesting about Ars Magica to people outside his incredibly insular group.

Anyway, Companions are sidekicks. The game doesn't pretend that Gourry is somehow the equal of Lina Inverse, he's a sidekick. The thing which makes this a bit interesting here is that you do not design or play your own Magus' sidekick. When you are playing the Wizard, you are the big damn hero, and someone else is playing your sidekick. And when you are playing a sidekick, someone else is playing the big damn hero Wizard that you are sidekicking for. And just looking at that, you can probably see how many problems that solves and creates. But since the book doesn't see fit to talk about how much broader a definition “splitting the party” has in this game until the end of the book, we'll just let that stew in your mind a bit.

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Your attributes are your base modifiers, which means that most attributes are supposed to be “0” for normal people, and the normal range goes from -3 to +3. Attributes have a big affect on minor untrained actions because the RNG runs is only 8 numbers long without crits and fumbles, but the difficulty ease chart goes out to the 20s, meaning that attributes are essentially meaningless in determining whether you can perform high end actions. The eight attributes are Size, Intelligence, Perception, Strength, Stamina, Presence, Communication, Dexterity, and Quickness. The astute reader will note that this is in fact nine attributes, which is because go fuck yourself. Actually, it's because the Size Attribute is extra specially really we mean it almost always zero and not always counted as an attribute. Some of those stats probably seem a bit redundant to you, and yeah they kind of are. It's not the worst attribute scheme in the world, even if they did mysteriously divide Charisma into two stats in a game which is still in essence D&D when it comes to actual character actions. Abilities are fixed on character generation like you were playing AD&D because Ars Magica is still a fantasy heartbreaker from the 80s.

You also have “abilities.” These are skills, in exactly the same that Masquerade calls skills “abilities.” These are added to your stat modifier to modify relevant die rolls like 3rd edition D&D, and this could honestly be called out as a piece of Ars Magica DNA in 3rd edition D&D. The 3e skill system looks more like Earthdawn, as we've mentioned before, but the fact that Tweet had worked on a Stat Modifier + Skill Modifier against a target number system before is rather indicative. In any case, they don't really mention it in this chapter, but while attributes are kinda-mostly capped at +3, abilities get very big and high end actions are pretty much “do you have the appropriate ability [Y/N]?”

There are also personality traits. These are adjectives with numbers that range from +3 to -3, and are mostly used as roleplaying prompts for grogs. Players are encouraged to have grogs behave randomly until they have grown in to a role and have established themselves as a character with a real personality. This system has always been a bit half assed, and while it's a better system for moving characters up in the world from “groom #2” to “Jake the Stableboy” than most, it's still not actually great. For one thing, the personality trait lists are lacking (as in: they do not exist in this book), and the numbers aren't really big enough to have characters behave noticeably different from coin flips in most instances. Even a +3 Loyalty grog will take a “large bribe” half the time, which narratively pretty much means that no one is particularly loyal or honest or whatever to any noteworthy extent.

There's a reputation system, which is overly complex and not actually that helpful. I understand how hard it is to make a reputation system that does what you want it to, but this isn't it. Frankly, just replacing these moving parts with magical teaparty or single score fame numbers would probably be better. You also have Confidence Points, which are a non-refreshing metagame currency attached to the character, which is bad design for a game where players play different characters.

And that's the pieces of a character defined in this chapter. So we now go to... sample characters? This is kind of odd, there are seven and a half pages of high density sample characters. These characters have things that haven't been defined yet. And I don't mean how they have virtues and flaws even though the list of those and their descriptions are in the virtues and flaws chapter. Nor do I mean how they have abilities (and specializations) that won't get described until the abilities chapter. I mean like they list fatigue levels, warping scores, decrepitude, Arts values, and combat maneuvers that haven't even been introduced as things that can go on a character sheet. These sample characters might as well be written in Klingon to anyone going through this book page by page for the first time. And honestly, only one and a half pages of this go into pre-made grogs even though those are 90% of the characters you need pregens for. Usability for new or casual players simply isn't high on this book's priority list. You're probably going to need dozens of grogs in a game of Ars Magica, and there are only six samples – and all of them are fighters. If you need scribes or chandlers or swineherds or whatever, which you do, you're on your own.

Only after we get those dubiously useful sample characters are we treated to the actual character generation rules, which are called “Detailed Character Generation.” These are actually pretty awful. There are 11 steps, and step 7 is to spend 240 XP and then spend 120 spell level points. Step 6 involves spending XPs based on your character age. Then after all that fiddly accounting, step 11 is that you have whatever equipment you can convince the Storyguide that you have. Really, they make you spend hundreds of XP at weird exchange rates, and at the end of the whole deal they don't even bother with a price list. Because what we really want to do is do massive accounting involving literally hundreds of points, but god forbid that a game where we collectively play a medieval commune should put a price on chickens and horses.
Ars Magica wrote:For each season that your magus spends working on a lab project, the character loses 10 points from the yearly 30 experience points, to a minimum of 0 if three or four seasons are spent on lab work. Thus it is most cost effective to have the magus engage in a full year of lab work at a time.
There are a lot of asides like that. Ars Magica is filled with weird little accounting bullshit like that. Where doing your accounting one way gives you slightly more or less XP or whatever the fuck. And the author of this edition is an old Ars Magica hand who has exhaustively discussed these weird hiccups in the system with other people. So... he tells you about them. I mean, he's writing a new fucking edition, so he could just fix this shit, but instead he just sagely informs the new player that things are in fact fucked up because it was designed in the 80s and some of the numbers are simply weird. I mean, what can you do? Other than write a new edition, oh wait!

I don't even know what all this accounting is for. The characters aren't balanced, they aren't even supposed to be balanced. It's just obscurantism for the sake of it.
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Post by virgil »

As regards the mythic EUROPE vs MYTHIC Europe thing, I realized from the beginning that having reality follow Aristotelian metaphysics is a path to crazy-town, and have already adjusted the expectations of the setting. However, having a Masquerade where mid-level wizards have no true incentive to hide their nature seems a bit much; so I'm taking a kind of half-way point. Mundane physics follows proper physics, God doesn't act (it's all angels with differing Abrahamic faiths of their own), and we take a little bit from the Dresden Files as far as humanity's collective ability to ignore magic and care way more than is healthy about other mundanes.
FrankTrollman wrote:Usability for new or casual players simply isn't high on this book's priority list. You're probably going to need dozens of grogs in a game of Ars Magica, and there are only six samples – and all of them are fighters.
Holy crap, yes. This has been my most pressing personal complaint about the system. I recently obtained Grogs in an attempt to alleviate this, and it doesn't actually help with making them until literally halfway through the book.
Atlas Games's dismissal of new and casual players is seriously a huge problem.
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Post by Blicero »

Are there any good reputation systems for a fantasy cooperative storytelling game that you know of? Does Ars Magica's system try to model the flow of information between different regions or anything like that?
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Post by Username17 »

virgil wrote:However, having a Masquerade where mid-level wizards have no true incentive to hide their nature seems a bit much; so I'm taking a kind of half-way point.
I would say that old Ars Magica had a better spiel for a masquerade than most games. It wasn't that you had to pretend magic didn't exist, because people did in fact believe in magic. You had to make sure the bishops and kings didn't find out that you personally were a witch or that your covenant had witches on staff. On account of it being medieval Europe and witchcraft is illegal in Christian lands.

Remember, there's only 1200 people in the Order, so each of the tribunals is less than a hundred guys. The Magi are powerful, but they are also collectively outnumbered by the military retinue of most individual powerful lords. If they want to avoid a Cathar or Wendish Crusade getting called on their ass, they have to pretend to observe the laws. And the laws are: no magic. So they have to pretend to do that.
Blicero wrote:Are there any good reputation systems for a fantasy cooperative storytelling game that you know of? Does Ars Magica's system try to model the flow of information between different regions or anything like that?
I can't think of one off the top of my head. Ars Magica tries to keep track of reputations with different groups, the size of reputations, and it's all just kind of messy. It would be better to just magical teaparty it.

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Post by Username17 »

OSSR: Ars Magica
Chapter 4: Virtues and Flaws

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Some flaws are worse than others.

Virtues and Flaws are conceptually similar to Merits and Flaws from Masquerade. Because the Merits and Flaws of Masquerade are quite obviously just the Ars Magica ones converted to the new system. 5th edition has simplified things such that now Virtues and Flaws only come in 0 point, 1 point, and 3 point flavors – the 2 point and 4 Virtues and Flaws have been dumped altogether. The categories are familiar to any Vampire player, but of course you should remember that Ars Magica did it first.

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Physicals are called “general,” mentals are called “personality,” and supernaturals are split into “supernatural” and “hermetic,” but you know the drill.

Even though the Magi and Companions are better than the grogs, they still need to take an equal number of points of Virtues and Flaws. I don't understand the reasoning there. Frankly, I don't understand why Flaws are worth points and Virtues cost points. I mean, I understand why Champions did that, and I understand that Ars Magica copied that concept because it was the 80s, but in the 21st century I don't understand why it is still like that.

See, like every collection of Flaws (or disadvantages or drawbacks or negative qualities or whatever your system calls them), there are ones where the character is just objectively worse, and there are ones that just generate stories. For the character or the player, not all Flaws are bad and not all Virtues are good. And the book acknowledges this! And then just shrugs. Some Flaws are good, what can you do? It's not like you're writing a new edition or anything.

Secondly, the game as a whole isn't even intended to balanced on any axis, so why bother asking the Flaws and Virtues to balance out? If you want to play a wealthy baron werewolf with flexible formulaic magic, why not? What is the game protecting us from by forbidding a character from taking that fourth major Virtue or sixth minor flaw? And why are we being asked to “pay” for great wealth in the first place when the game will let us have whatever starting equipment we want just by sucking the Storyguide's flacid cock?

This whole false balance of Virtues and Flaws paying for each other is a sham. And the author knows it's a sham, because he's been playing this game for a decade and a half and knows damn well that the 1980s game design concept of character flaws balancing superpowers never really worked out. And then instead of actually doing anything about, he just draws attention to this fact and walks off.

26 pages, and the only thing we've learned is that one in ten doesn't seem to mind.

Chapter 5: Abilities

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Skill lists aren't much different one game to another, only the amusing capering changes.

This 6 page chapter is just the skill list. It probably should have gone into the character generation chapter instead of the sample characters. Organization of this section leaves much to be desired. First of all, some skills can only be taken by educated people, and those have an asterisk on them. But some skills are fucking magic powers that you have to have some sort of magic blood to learn, and those don't have a note on the skill heading – they just have a parenthetical “(Supernatural)” at the end instead of being General or Academic or whatever.

But what really comes down to it is that the descriptions of the skills don't really tell you what the skills do. Basically what a skill does is add to die rolls and rapidly eclipse attributes as your primary source of bonus. But in addition to that, there are also various effects of having skills at specific levels, and those effects are hidden elsewhere in the book. So for example, you need to have a Dead Language (Latin) value of +5 or higher in order to write books. That information is not in the description of the Dead Language skill, it's in paragraph two of the Magus Apprenticeship description in the lifepaths portion of the character generation table. That paragraph also tells you that you need a +3 in Magical Theory to set up your own lab, a fact that is likewise not mentioned in the Magical Theory skill description.

The author's idea of where to put information are... heterodox.

Chapter 6: Covenants

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I thought we were an autonomous collective.

This chapter dedicates 7 pages to talking about covenants. The covenant is your autonomous collective, and all the characters that you play are doing various stuff in the covenant while you are not playing them. They are like monasteries or bishoprics. But before I get too far into that, and how this chapter should be much much longer, I want to rant about Manuel I Charitopoulos, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. At the time this game is set, he was in exile in Nicea, because Roman Catholics had sacked Constantinople sixteen years earlier. But the important thing is that, well, he existed. And the entire Eastern Orthodox faith existed. And had existed for over a century and a half since the split of the pentarchy. Reading this book, you would not know that. They talk about “the Church” and Catholicism interchangeably as if there is only one flavor of Christian. But some of these covenants are specifically in Eastern Europe, which has a different set of bishops in it. Eastern Orthodoxy does not get mentioned even once in this entire book, and that is very strange to me.

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That is one unhappy looking ecumenical patriarch.

Basically, the Covenant is you playing Dwarf Fortress table top. So you'd probably think this chapter would have a lot of stuff about medieval economies and how many people needed to be tending fields or blowing glass or whatever to provide certain levels of economic development and in turn allow for the support of various specialists. And you'd be wrong. The first hint that you would be wrong is probably the fact that the whole chapter only gets seven pages. But even within that context we squander most of the page space on a tortured seasonal metaphor for covenants.

See, you can play in a covenant that is either a new colony, an up-and-coming established colony, a thriving city, or a decadent settlement in decline. And these are metaphorically spring, summer, autumn, or winter covenants. And that's most of the chapter. No coopers, no grain yields, not even a discussion of how the people working the lands of you fourth estaters fit into the feudal structure. Do you have to lend grogs to local barons? Do you have a charter like a city? I don't know.

What it gives you instead are “build points” and virtues and flaws for your covenant (called “hooks and boons” even though they are exactly the same as virtues and flaws). The build points... well they don't deliver anything remotely similar to a balanced product and I don't think they are supposed to. After all, you can just choose to play a more powerful covenant and start with more build points.

Basically there's a pretty great lead-in, where it promises a game of low fantasy Dwarf Fortress and then it just tells you to figure it out your own damn self.
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Post by Chamomile »

This game keeps finding new ways to disappoint me. Who here has any cool ideas of how to convert After Sundown to Ars Magica? Because that is now the basic direction I want to take my heroic fantasy AS conversion.

Related: If this "new edition" gets away with just discussing quirks of 80s-era design without actually fixing any of them, does that mean that this OSSR itself qualifies as a fanmade sixth edition?
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Post by Prak »

I think AS would need a more flexible, or at least, more robust, magic system to be a "How Ars Magica Should Have Been Written." As it is, I decided to use a loose version of AS' setting for a book I'm slowly working on, because using it strictly means limiting my warlock main character's abilities a lot, after I've already written them using a portal to Styx and a conjured water elemental to deal with a burst pipe in their bathroom.
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Post by Ancient History »

World of Darkness tried the build-your-own-Chantry thing a few different times - they even did it with the whole pooling-resources schema for Vampire - but it never quite gelled.
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Post by Chamomile »

I'm honestly not too concerned about the magic system discrepancies because I'm okay with, and even prefer, the more rigidly defined magic of After Sundown. I'm mostly interested in tabletop Dwarf Fortress and possibly a discussion on how to do grogs right. But a magic system thing probably wouldn't be uninteresting either.
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Post by Prak »

AS' magic works great for a game predicated on being a horror monster, and that could even be ok for a fantasy medieval europe about being Dracula and his controlled outlying villages. If you want to do Ars Magica, where everyone is playing magicians hiding from the various Christian churches while running their own autonomous collective, then you at the very least need more individual "spells" so that being a "Discernment Magician" is a valid life choice that doesn't necessarily require having three to four other sorceries you also dabble in to actually have some flexibility in what you do.
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Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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