Star Wars SAGA Edition: Characters

[fbmf]

Allow me to counter your hypothetical with another, fbmf:

There is a space dog that we have established is non-sentient. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to diplomacy instead of just hunting/tracking/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

What are the rules for removing that dog's non-sentience?

I didn't know adding sentience was a thing even implied you can do in any edition of Star Wars(I will admit I stopped keeping track of EU right before Vector Prime so I'm years out of date). If so, good call; I'd like to know as well. If not, your hypothetical doesn't track to mine and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Game On,
fbmf

[erik]

Let's just zoom out a bit from this one for a surveillance photo...

If there isn't one, Dean, I'll ask you to take back your accusation that I'm a Thrall of the Lobster.

Game On,
fbmf

-- this post sent from my phone

Ah- ha!

Also, further revelations- Chamomile=Rocker? Was that you posting to Maj's social media thingy about animals being dogs? I would feel bad about that comparison, but the amount of intellectual dishonesty in that "counter" is appalling.

[Korwin]

Based on the discussions in the other Star Wars threads, it seems people disagree about what stuff is good and what isn't.

• http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55604
• http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55713

Full character sheets only

• Relevant numbers should be listed, with full accounting of bonuses.
• Posting playable versions of the character at several levels would be nice

PhoneLobster and Dean in particular are invited to participate.

Point Buy 28?
Age modi, yes or no?

I am Immortal
Race: Something with + to Cha and/or Wis (like an Yakura)
Essential Skills: Use the Force
Level by level (talents and Force techniques are in italics, feats are in bold), Base Attack Bonus is underscored

1. Soldier 1 - Armored Defense, Soldier Starting Feats, Force Sensitive, 1
2. Soldier 2 - Skill Focus Use the Force, 2
3. Jedi 1 - Transfer Essence Lightsaber Proficiency, Force Training, 3
4. Soldier 3 - Improved Armored Defense, 4
5. Soldier 4 - Brink of Death, 5

[fbmf]

I'll admit I laughed at that.

Dean and DSM, I didn't mean for my throwaway line to clog up your thread. As. I say, I know nothing of SAGA. From reading the review and your replies, I'm getting that generous readings are sometimes necessary to make the game work, and that PL went into it wanting to find shit wrong was an established fact.

I can say that reading the encounter guidelines, I'd have come to the same conclusion PL did, though. And the lack of no clear way to disable droid behavioral inhibitors would have bothered me because I had/have a fondness for droid characters in D6. You're saying there doesn't have to be one. If this were my first experience with Star Wars RPGs and I had no preconceived notions I might agree.

Carry on with your SAGA cheese thread. I will say no more unless it relates to SAGA builds.

Game On,
fbmf

[erik]

Korwin, you stuck a [ /quote] at the end of your spoiler tag and it hath committed a thread maiming.

And fbmf you doubled down and did it twice.

Is the board creating extra [ /quotes] again?

[DSMatticus]

It was implied in D6 that there is a way to disable a droid's Delta Protocols so it can contribute to combat against living organisms

There is an NPC droid that we have established in game has delta protocols. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to combat instead of just translating/piloting/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

You're missing the point. Notice how in both of those posts you make the assumption that the droid's behavioral inhibitors (Delta Protocols) need to be disabled before it can participate in combat? You're basically asking if the droids have stopped beating their wives yet; it's a loaded question. Droids with behavioral inhibitors can participate in combat. All they need is a heuristic processor, and if they don't have a heuristic processor then they are less a playable robot person and more a particularly versatile automation; they don't join the party, they get written on someone's character sheet as a piece of equipment.

AFAIK saga does not have rules for disabling behavioral inhibitors (and since some droids don't have them, there probably should be rules for turning a droid who has them into one who doesn't), but all the same your question still contains assumptions that aren't really true and as such the problem described in those questions is solvable.

From reading the review and your replies, I'm getting that generous readings are sometimes necessary to make the game work, and that PL went into it wanting to find shit wrong was an established fact.

I think you are assuming that PL made a good faith effort to fairly understand and describe the text, but that's bullshit. His "confusion" about burst fire didn't happen because the text was in anyway ambiguous, it happened because he wanted to win an argument on the internet. PL is willing to indulge himself in whatever willful stupidity is needed in order to bash on the things and people he doesn't like. The last argument I had with PL was in the thread about monster generation systems. If I recall, you were in that thread. Our argument ended like this:

Which is rather the problem with your "Yay! Closet trolls!" design idea. "Only works in a closet" is NOT an appropriate "Weakness" to take in exchange for "Super awesome mega powers". Your pyromancer on a crucifix should not in anyway gain pyromancer powers for being on a crucifix. And in being on a crucifix he is a deeply irrelevant encounter outside of his closet. This is what is wrong with your design direction.

Monsters have to be level appropriate under the conditions you are expected to fight them; no more, no less. If your argument is that trading mobility for autowin against everything within X meters would be bad design, no shit. Thank you, Captain Obvious. I wouldn't even dare to dream of so much as being the Holmes to your Sherlock.

Over here in the discussion that is actually happening, we are talking about monsters that have abilities to compensate for their lack of mobility (a better range, stealth, mobility denial, and so on), but take level appropriate actions against the PC's while they are in range. I.e., in exchange for their mobility they get abilities that help them keep the PC's in range. Not abilities that let them win at D&D for X meters.

You do not pull a "there are a selection of kick ass super powers ONLY sharks can have because only they have the limitations that make it acceptable to shoot the party with those powas!".

This is a bullshit strawman I already called you on at the first hint you would go down that path. The correct response when being caught with your hand in the cookie jar of intellectual dishonesty is not to eat the fucking cookie, and if you aren't going to raise your standards of conversation to address the things people are actually saying you will just fucking go on ignore. I will deal with your stupidity and your terrible ideas because those we can at least get productive discussion out of knocking those down, but if you aren't even going to pretend to respond to the people you are arguing with then there is no fucking point and I will not waste my time.

And that is every argument I have ever had with PL about anything. Asking PL to describe things he does not like is like asking Bill O'Reilly to explain the tides; the only thing you'll get is a sermon and a steaming pile of bullshit. He doesn't argue in good faith. He will not accurately describe the things he is attempting to criticize. He will dub over you in his mind and respond to that instead.

Also: I don't think you need to feel bad about "derailing" the thread. I don't really think this is going anywhere other than the handful of interested people getting to look at some builds. Certainly not a task of Grand Importance(tm) from which the thread must not be distracted by rules discussions.

[Dean]

Dean and DSM,

There is an NPC droid that we have established in game has delta protocols. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to combat instead of just translating/piloting/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

What are the rules for removing that droid's Delta Protocols?

In D6, we had to house rule it. What's the hard coded rule in SAGA?

If there isn't one, Dean, I'll ask you to take back your accusation that I'm a Thrall of the Lobster.

Game On,
fbmf

Example accepted. The hard coded rule you are looking for exists and it's called a Heuristic Processor. You can buy a Heuristic Processor anywhere for 5 grand and install it in any Droid you want allowing them to break their protocols any time they desire. In the argument I already linked you you'll see I wrote out the full text for Hueristic processors which includes a direct statement that droids with them can even kill people if they want to.

The Droid in your example is still an NPC so he's still the GM's character and not yours. You don't fully control whether he kills people or not. He's sentient and his own person so he'll make his own choices but he is fully capable of killing if he chooses to do so. If what you really want is to take that droid and have him immediately start shooting up a mall with no possibility to resist then you can use a "Personality Downloader" on him to briefly make him a 4th degree droid who will kill on command. This is similar to Dominating someone to make them do what you want in 3.e. It's not really them that's doing it but even if the challenge is to instantly take a droid from translating to murder immediately you can still do that.

I can say that reading the encounter guidelines, I'd have come to the same conclusion PL did, though.

Then you either misunderstand his position or you have become aggressively retarded. PL's position is that it is illegal for more than 6 people to attack you at any given time. Allow me to quote the rules he keeps referencing but never actually writing because they obviously don't agree with him.

Multiple Opponents: Encounters with two to six opponents work best. Save the single-opponent encounter for higher-CL "bosses" like the rancor or Darth Vader. Avoid encounters with more than a dozen opponents unless you want the heroes to feel overwhelmed.

PL is only referencing that paragraph when he tells you his conclusion: That "by the rules" it is illegal for more than the listed number of people to make attacks on you even if you seek out and fight them. That is bugfuck insane but here is him saying it in his review

I know it is completely insane that something like only 5 out of like 9000 or so storm troopers are allowed to get off their star destroyer and join it in combat against you while the rest can stay on board to be nothing but an optional admin headache.

PL's position is an insane one that no one would ever have from the single paragraph above. If you have it you're an idiot. His position that 13 enemies cannot attack you even if you attack them is an impossible reading of that paragraph. If you had that reading you would also assume it was illegal for single boss enemies like Rancors or Darth Vader to attack PC's because the paragraph recommends against them exactly in exactly the same language.

It is just another example of him being willing to make absolutely dishonest arguments. He makes obviously incorrect statements the rules clearly don't support, strawmans when called on them, moves goalposts when he is put dead to rights on being wrong and when his claim has been completely disproven his last resort is to repeat it over and over again until people stop responding and he declares victory.

[DSMatticus]

Encounters with more than a dozen creatures are difficult to judge. If you need thirteen or more creatures to provide XP for a standard encounter, then those individual creatures are probably so weak that they don't make for a good encounter. That's why Table 3-1 doesn't have an entry larger than twelve for number of creatures.

Now, I am going to say the obvious: the 3.5 DMG takes a stronger stance on using more than a dozen opponents than Saga does. While Saga only says that such fights will make the players "feel overwhelmed" (again, verbatim), 3.5's DMG tells you that that they are difficult to judge, will probably be so weak that they don't make an appropriate encounter, and that the table you are supposed to use to look up how many opponents you will need stops at the number 12. Though if you know the formula used to populate that table from another paragraph, you can calculate the value yourself, exactly as in Saga sans the table.

So I'm going to pose a simple question: there are 13 orcs. You shout "Gruumsh's mother was a whore!" How many roll initiative?

And then another: there are 13 stormtroopers. You shout "the emperor's mother was a whore!" How many roll initiative?

If those answers are different, why are they different? If you answered "twelve or less" to both, how do you explain modules like the Red Hand of Doom?

[zugschef]

That example/question is fuckin' stupid.

[Chamomile]

If not, your hypothetical doesn't track to mine and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Game On,
fbmf

A droid constrained by delta protocols is a piece of equipment. A battle droid is seriously about as aware as a dog, and disabling a droid's delta protocols by installing a heuristic processor is not really anymore far-fetched than plugging a droid brain into a space dog to make sentient cyborg abomination of some sort. Star Wars has two kinds of droids, those that are sapient individuals and those that, despite a few quirks, are non-sapient automatons, and your assumption that one can turn into the other is pretty much unfounded. R2D2 is always capable of being a party member and always was, battle droid #6 was never capable of being a party member and never will be (unless you rebuild him to be a different kind of droid, in the same way that it is within the setting's capabilities to plug a droid brain into a space dog). The question I'm trying to get you to consider here is: What made you assume that a droid with delta protocols would be an appropriate party member in the first place?

[fbmf]

If not, your hypothetical doesn't track to mine and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Game On,
fbmf

What made you assume that a droid with delta protocols would be an appropriate party member in the first place?

I watched the Star Wars movies...

Game On,
fbmf

(If you want to discuss this further, let's take it to a different thread and let these gentlemen have their cheese thread.)

[Starmaker]

If you need thirteen or more creatures to provide XP for a standard encounter

Standard encounter as in same CR. Red Hand of Doom isn't standard by any stretch of the imagination:

I am playing through it and I have no idea how the player is supposed to win. Which isn't to say that we aren't winning, I'm just puzzled as to what you're supposed to do. We've been pulling crazy crap and I can't help but to think that without we'd be losing party members constantly.

The 3.5 DMG and apparently SAGA warn the MC against planning combat encounters with 13+ opponents as a variant solution because the rules are such that it's very likely to not be fun. If the players actually go out and seek a fight with 117 orc stormtroopers, it's on.

[Chamomile]

(If you want to discuss this further, let's take it to a different thread and let these gentlemen have their cheese thread.)

You haven't really posted anything substantial enough to respond to, so I wouldn't really have anything to post in that thread. If you want to make one, go ahead.

[PhoneLobster]

Dean and DSM,

There is an NPC droid that we have established in game has delta protocols. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to combat instead of just translating/piloting/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

What are the rules for removing that droid's Delta Protocols?

...

If there isn't one, Dean, I'll ask you to take back your accusation that I'm a Thrall of the Lobster.

Since Dean answered... poorly let me give you the actual answer.

Heuristic processor only lets your droid have the argument about how you are totally creatively interpreting stuff in order to attack things (instead of flat out being banned the way non-heuristic droids are). Dean and DSM want to ignore that and pretend there IS no limitation on Heuristic droids despite pretty explicit text.

But there IS a way to explicitly lift the "creative interpretation" requirement/limitaiton on Heuristic droids.

Someone mentioned it off hand in the last argument. But it was largely ignored by everyone as not being a defense of the claims at hand.

And it has the text...

you have permanently disabled your behavioural inhibitor, enabling you to take any desired action.

Along with some other minor benefits like immunity to restraining bolts.

It's your fourth level of a heuristic droid career and its a prestige class benefit. (edit: hidden deep in a different splat book to the one you might think you would find this class in)

Dean and DSM presumably don't mention it because it's bad for their claim "There are no limitations on your desired actions as a heuristic droid!" when there IS a class that explicitly lifts those "non-existent" limitations as part of it's main thing.

But it IS the option you are looking for. Horrible for PCs, but certainly fine for an NPC upgrade.

Unfortunately though proving you are my thrall? Apparently?

[Dean]

First thing's first. This took me a few days to design but it's kinda cool. The Punch Droid beats everything in the 5th or 10th level challenge in a way that's not that interesting to write about, it's just everything exploding to punches. I decided to make a build that would be new to me and here's what I got.

Reaction Jackson, 5th level Near-Human (Soldier 2, Scout 3)

Str 13
Dex 19
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 6

Hp 57
Ref 22
Will 15
Fort 19

Soldier 1, Feat: Heavy Weapon Prof, Weapon Focus, Talent: Armor basics
Scout 1, Talent: Evasion
Scout 2, Feat: Quick Draw, Return Fire
Soldier 2, Feat: Dual Weapon Mastery
Scout 3, Feat: Combat Reflexes, Talent: Blast Back

Attacks: Grenade Launcher +9 or +4/+4 (8d6+2)
Skills: Mechanics +7, Use Computer +7, Initiative +11
Gear: Highly modified Krail 210 Power Armor with shield generators and mounted weaponry. Krath Thinsuit, Bronzium Shield Gauntlet, Double-bladed sword, SR 20 Energy Shield, Stealth Field Generator, Holoshroud

Tricks: I had an idea for a build based on reaction shots so I mixed that with the Iron Man concept I posted about earlier and made Reaction Jackson. He's still got an Iron Man suit so his AC is really high, he flys, and he's got a bunch of different grenade launchers and missile launchers. His build is based around getting as many shots on enemy turns as possible. When someone misses a ranged attack against the character he gets to make an attack back and also if anyone hits him with an area attack he gets to make an attack back. Punching him is really the only thing that makes him not hit you with missiles on what was supposed to be your turn.
His armor is also really cool, it's special abilities are: It gives him DR 2 and SR 10 which is basically DR 12 against most things, it can double his shield bonus by reducing his to-hit score, it can cancel one attack per encounter, and it has an asston of grenade launchers and other weapons.

5th Level Challenges
6 Thugs: Even if we assume that I am somewhere where flight is not an option these guys still eat it. They can surround me and swing all day and they will only hit me on 20's which I can then cancel or just let through to be eaten by my shield rating anyway. I could just stab every thug to death and still win.
Bounty Hunter: His best trick is that I only hit him on a 19 but since this idiot didn't take evasion I will deal him 30 damage even on misses. I'll drop him to at least half health in an opening salvo of shots that will never hit him and then he'll die from the same treatment + reaction shots on round 2
2 Droideka's: These guys have shields that are really impressive, letting them chop 20 damage off anything that hits them. If I only use one shot instead of two my accuracy goes up which makes it more likely I do full damage with both my regular and return shots. Their first round of shots will wipe out my shields but only a few points of actual damage and generate a response attack. By round two their shields would be depleted a bit now so I'd go full offense and launch 2 attacks which would damage them enough that the next time they miss I'll kill them a reaction shot. I'd come out of this fight beat up, probably only 10-20 hp but I'd win.
2 Wampas: Hahaha suck a dick Wampa's. They miss too much and barely damage me, even if this fight is in a closet I can just launch grenades at my feat because I have evasion and they don't so I'm immune and they'll take 30-60 damage a round. They'll die before round 2 is over.
Luke Skywalker: I've tried every strategy I can think of and Luke kicks my ass in all of them. Luke has Evasion, more HP than me, and I only hit him on a 17+ and even then he's only taking half damage. Luke will hack at me until I'm dead. Even in a location where I could fly he could actually wait me out until my Jet Pack eventually failed and then just keep murdering me. This is a loss.

5th Level Wins: 4 out of 5. Next up the tenth level version.


Reaction Jackson, 10th level Near Human (Soldier 4, Scout 6)

Str 13
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 6

Hp 81
Ref 30
Will 20
Fort 25

Soldier 1, Feat: Heavy Weapon Prof, Weapon Focus, Talent: Armor basics
Scout 1, Talent: Evasion
Scout 2, Feat: Quick Draw, Return Fire
Soldier 2, Feat: Dual Weapon Mastery
Scout 3, Feat: Combat Reflexes, Talent: Blast Back
Soldier 3, Talent: Armor Specialization
Soldier 4, Feat: Dual Weapon Mastery 2
Scout 4, Feat: Sniper Shot
Scout 5, Feat: Heavy Armor, Talent: Second Strike
Scout 6, Feat: Attack Combo

Attacks: Grenade Launcher +15 or +13/+13 (8d6+5), Proton Torpedo +15 (12d10+10)
Skills: Mechanics +12, Use Computer +12, Initiative +15, Stealth +32
Gear: Highly modified Krail 210 Power Armor with shield generators and mounted weaponry. Krath Thinsuit, Bronzium Shield Gauntlet, Double-bladed sword, SR 20 Energy Shield, Stealth Field Generator+various other Stealth boosting gear, Holoshroud

Tricks: Move forward a few levels and this guy just fills the air with explosions. He took a talent called Second Strike which says "When you miss A TARGET with single melee or ranged attack" you can move and make another attack as a free action. Combining this with an AOE attack is amazing because odds are good you'll miss one target in the pile of dudes you're shooting at which now generates a whole nother attack. This character now gets two shots on his turn +1 if he ever missed anyone under his AOE's +1 for every person that missed me +1 if anyone hits me with an AOE. This mixes well with a feat called "Attack Combo" which says that if I hit with two attacks a round I deal an extra die of damage, so past the first round he'll deals an extra d6 or d10 or whatever. The character also has a Proton Torpedo Launcher now which can deal a fuckton of damage and he'll save that for use against vehicles. Finally the character has a lot of gear which buffs his Stealth checks. I'm not including that ability of his in any of the combat breakdowns below but I would build the character this way in a real game because being able to go invisible and go off the RNG of people's perception checks is always a great ability.

10th Level Challenges
Darth Vader and Stormtroopers: The Stormtroopers are a huge help to me in this fight. Darth doesn't have Evasion and whenever a Stormtrooper shoots at me I'm gonna return a grenade. Darth's force powers can let him stunlock me for a round or two but thats about it. For my part I can hit him for 50 damage a round and get a move on top of it. Ignoring even any return fire I'll get from the Stormtroopers I will kill Darth in 4 rounds and can either outmaneuver him or just let him attack me. Basically this is the Luke Skywalker fight but without Evasion and with me having 5 more levels.
2 Rancors: I have a lot of capabilities the Rancors don't like Stealth fields and flight but if a floor underneath me opens up and just drops me into a Rancor Pit I'm fucking dead. Rancors are grapple monsters and their monstrous +27 check is 14 points beyond mine and every round they pin me they can wail on me for 25 damage. This is one of those fights I definitely lose in a closet but definitely win in a forest. Still I'll call this one a loss.
3 Arc Troopers: Arc Troopers are probably the nastiest troop type in the whole game. I'm more likely to go first than they are and I do enough damage to drop one a round but they have "destiny points" which can be used to negate attacks. On their round the two healthy ones could just declare that they crit me for 10d10+10 damage apiece which between the two of them is enough to kill me immediately. My armor can negate one of those attacks but the other is either gonna take off half my health. That sucks but after that things swing back in my favor. They only hit me on 20's once they've used up their auto-hits and if they use missiles on me they'll realize I'm immune to AOE's. Every miss they make also gives me another shot back so I'm going to burn through these guys incredibly quickly. The only way I lose this fight is if I miss every shot on the opening round. Since I hit on 5's it's not super likely but it's possible so it would probably be wise for me to add a Force Point to one of those attacks to make it all but certain I hit.
6 Droideka's: Suck my butt droids I've leveled past you. These guys can't hit me anymore and every shot they miss gives me free shots back and I only miss them on a nat 1. This would just be me raining grenades on hapless droids who showed up to die.
AT-AT and 10 Stormtroopers: As before the Stormtroopers actually help me in this fight. I'd never realized just how tough an AT-AT is in this system, it's got 300 hp and DR 20 which actually made me check my ammo count to make sure I wouldn't just run out before it died. I only deal about 25 damage a turn even with direct hits so for the first round I'd probably just clear out the troops. Everyone on their side only hits me on 20's so I'll have all the reaction shots I could want. On round 2 hitting the AT-AT twice activates my attack combo which means on my next turn I can fire my proton torpedo launcher for 14d10+10 damage which even through DR 20 still lands about 70 damage. I think it would take me about 11 rounds of pouring fire into the AT-AT to kill it which actually includes a round to reload. It can't hurt me but if this was a "Save the Orphanage" style mission I think there'd be a lot of dead british children around.

10th Level Wins: 4 out of 5

[erik]

Re: 6 Thugs. Are they unable to grapple and pin you? Seems like that's the thing to do rather than trade punches.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Your builds lists the exact same armor at both level points, but only the latter has the Proton Torpedo attack.

Is the armor level-scaling?

[Dean]

Re: 6 Thugs. Are they unable to grapple and pin you? Seems like that's the thing to do rather than trade punches.

It would be but you're correct, they can't. Pinning is an advanced form of Saga grappling that you need the feat "Pin" to do. Rancor's have it, thugs don't. The best the thugs could do would be to "Grab" me which would immobilize me and give me a small negative to my attacks.

Your builds lists the exact same armor at both level points, but only the latter has the Proton Torpedo attack.

Is the armor level-scaling?

I wish. It was just a matter of cost. At 5th level his credits were too thin for me to add a missile launcher that costs 1000 credits to fire each time. Adding another weapon to his suit is just a DC 10 mechanics check so whenever he has the creds he can just bolt it on. In his sheet I didn't fully list his armor suite for the sake of brevity but if you were curious it's
-A Krath Thinsuit with an Internal Generator (Granting him DR 2)
-A Bronzium Shield Gauntlet (Which can negate one attack per encounter)
-Vaccuum sealed, Prototype Stygian-Triprismatic Krail 210 Personal Armor with an integrated shield generator and weapon mounts incorporating 6 Grenade Launchers and a Proton Torpedo Launcher. Armor has been stripped and upgraded via the Tech Specialist feat for additional upgrade slots.

[Avoraciopoctules]

I am playing in a Saga Edition game right now, and my mad scientist wants to make a Human Replica Droid to assassinate a sith lord.

Does anybody have advice for where I'd want to focus making a Punch Droid at level 12 with a Human Replica chassis?

[Dean]

So I just wrote a big detailed response but realized at the end I may have misunderstood. I thought you were building a 12th level droid character using a Human Replica chasis. My new belief is that you want to know how best to turn the Replica Droid on page 152 of Threats of the Galaxy into the best version of a punch droid possible with it's 4 levels of scout. Which of these is correct? Or a third interpretation perhaps that you want to know the most effective and deadliest way to create some kind of assassin droid to send at a Sith Lord.

The build can be cool either way I just need to know a little more clearly what it is exactly you're trying to do. Also as a final note let me ask: Is a droid that has $TEXAS stealth scores and/or a holoshroud to appear human an acceptable alternative or is the particular nine million dollar Replica Droid a must have for the plan to feel cool and on-brand?

[Avoraciopoctules]

I am building a 12th level droid character using a Human Replica chassis. My team kidnapped a Sith Lord's apprentice, and I think I could use a tissue sample to make a copy in their likeness.

I figure that an internal Tactical Tractor Beam and shield generator (faking having force powers) plus a strong Deception bonus could get them close enough to take a shot at the Sith Lord directly. And even if not, I could sow dissent in the enemy ranks with the appearance of a major traitor. Since we stole the apprentice's lightsaber, I can hand that to the copy droid and program in some laser competence.

-=-=-=-=-

As I understand it, Tactical Tractor Beams let you telekinetically throw cars at people.

https://swse.fandom.com/wiki/Tactical_Tractor_Beam
Also, in the linked Falling Object rules, there's this:

Objects that are forced downward (Such as a piston in a Droid factory or a closing door) deal damage as if they were two size categories larger than they actually are.

So as I see it, if the DM is generous I can float a Huge speeder over someone's head, and then my Glow Rod bot can set off the detonator on some explosive charges on top of it to squish a fool with 20d6 of falling damage.

The problem is, this requires setup time, DM generosity, and it doesn't look like a Force power anymore if you have to set off bombs for it.

-=-=-=-=-=-

So right now I am looking at a Punch Droid who just holds a lightsabre in one hand but only swings it for show. I understand most of the build, but I'm not sure how you get up to 28 strength at level 5 right now.

[Dean]

Ok I’m on it. So real quick I'll just spoiler my previous posts that are relevant, just to get them all in the same place for easy reference. You can skip past them it'll just be easier if it's all here. I'll also note that the Str is gotten that high by using a point buy to get you an 18 to start, choosing the Labor Droid model type for +4 Str (I think from Scavengers Guide to Droids), then saying you're made by Barrowan Arms for +1, then wearing any power armor for +2 to Str. You won't want to be a Labor Droid or wear power armor (though that last one can be worked around with a holographic generator) so your only source for ability scores are gonna be point buy, level ups, and the Tech Specialist feat which rules and you should have it. Actually what am I saying you're a droid, rewrite yourself to have it. You do have it. Superior Tech Specialist can give you a +4 to Str so that'll put you right on track.

First Punch Droid writeup

Ok lets look at the Punch droid. I'll build him as a 4th level character and we'll talk about his build up to level 8, which is the likely range which you would ever play a campaign in.

Punch Droid, 4th level Soldier
Str 26
Dex 14
Con -
Int 4
Wis 8
Cha 4

Ref: 21
Fort: 24
Will: 13
HP: 45

Level 1: Talent: Heavy Duty Actuators, Feat: Martial Arts I
Level 2: Feat: Slammer
Level 3: Talent: Hammerblow
Level 4: Feat: Echani Martial Arts

Attack: Falcon Punch +19 (1d6+67)

At level 4 you only have one special trick but it's a doozy. Point Buy gets you an 18 in Strength and being a Labor droid brings that to a 22, saying you're made by "Barrowan Arms" brings that up to 23 for no reason and your 4th level ability increase brings that to a 24. Finally wearing a Correlian Powersuit or any other kind of powered armor for another +2 to Strength bringing you to 26.

By 4th level your punch is ridiculous. Heavy Duty Actuators lets you double your strength bonus to damage, Slammer does the same thing, and Echani Martial arts does the same thing. Hammer Blow actually doubles your Strength bonus to ATTACK which means this character won't miss on anything but 1's for the whole campaign and when he hits he will deal 1d6+3+64(8x2x2x2) damage. In a system where missile launchers deal 21 damage on average this character's punch will certainly be the heaviest hit the team has and will be the go-to for Vehicles and boss monsters. Still, the Punch Droid isn't limited to punching and is a perfectly effective character at using ranged weapons, more effective than normal even because the Punch Droid should look like Goro, keeping two limbs unarmed for punching and then some other limbs devoted to holding weapons larger than human characters would be able to comfortably wield.

The next 4 levels of the Punch Droid's life become more open. It is possible to make your punch even better and it was a common sight on Saga boards to see someone who thought they were at the height of CharOp posting a build that could get their unarmed attacks up to 6d12 damage at base (or whatever) but that's fuckin stupid. There are very few problems a 150 damage punch will solve that a 75 damage punch wouldn't, and a 150 damage punch takes about 5 times the resources sunk into it that the 75 damage punch did. So stop at the cheap awesome punch and diversify. The next 4 levels should put you on whatever other paths other than punching you want to add into your character. The punching will always be there and it will naturally keep getting better but figure out what else you want to add.

One option would be to get Cleave, Great Cleave, and Telescopic limbs, letting you punch murder everything within ten feet of you every round. Being able to hit whole squads as a walking high-damage burst effect is nice. If you're really devoted to melee you can also look at the talents Counterpunch, Retaliation Jab, and Defensive Jab. They let you respond to anyone attacking you in melee with a responsive punch, and make anyone who misses you in melee take your Str in damage automatically. I think over investing in melee is probably a waste but if your heart wants what it wants go ahead.

You could also focus on Heavy Weapon use. A Droid's Goro build lets him be a much better ranged combatant than most organics. Taking Heavy Weapon proficiencies and the Dual Wielding feat can let you dual wield Large sized missile launchers. Building this character a lot like the Iron Man character above ends up in a less versatile but higher damaging version of the same concept.

You could also focus on defense. You can install a shield generator and a specialized subprocessor for pretty cheap. If you then take the feat Droid Shield Mastery or the talent Power Supply you can regenerate your shields as a swift action every round. Effectively giving you DR 15 for a small investment of your resources.

Once your Punch droid is in the 8+ level range he's out of what I've ever played. I imagine you would jump into the Elite Trooper Prestige class or the Martial Arts prestige class as those are considered to be strong. It doesn't really matter because by that level you will be insanely wealthy and wealth affects power for Droids in a much more direct way than levels do. I would care a lot less about what talent you took at 11th level than I would about how you've built your custom armor, weaponry, stealth loadouts, holosuits, droidified equipment and so on.

So that's him: Punch-Droid. The last thing I'll say about him is not to forget that he's a Droid. Meaning the the Immortal Everyman droid and he can have a lot of overlap, considering the Immortal Everyman could just decide that he wanted to punch some people today and change every feat and talent he ever took to match.

The Immortal Everyman Droid post

This character exists entirely because of rules in the droid equipment sections, his class abilities are inconsequential. The only thing that is important in his actual build is that you make sure his Use Computer score is nice and high. Because according to page 188 of the main rulebook "A droids trained skills, feats, and talents can be reassigned with the Use Computer skill". All you need to do is be able to beat your own will save with a Use Computer check and you can rewrite your character sheet given a half an hour. The one thing you can't alter is your actual class choice, so pick something broad. Luckily there's only 4 classes so they each cover a lot of play space.
The important upgrades are a remote processor, a remote reciever, a remote reciever signal booster, a backup processor, and a hidden core. This means that your droid character can be adventuring anywhere in a 6000 mile radius of their hidden core which can be another little droid of its own. Because by the Scum and Villainy rules you can droidify any object. Your droids hidden core mini-droid can be invisible, in a hologram, underwater, and mobile. With that kind of radius your core could be in Japan while you are in New York. The space you could operate in would make finding your droid phylactery totally impossible. If it was found and destroyed it would reboot in 1d6 days because of the hidden core unless the destroyer found it and said the words "I am searching for a hidden core" and then rolled a great perception check.
The important upgrades for adventuring are a SR 15 Shield Generator with a Shield Expansion module, a Holoshroud, Stealth Field Generator, a Silence Bubble, and a Jetpack. This gives you a vehicle grade shield which you can share with a buddy, the power to rock stealth encounters, and fly.
So you've got a set of basic capabilities that are pretty utilitarian and then you can customize your every feat and talent to handle whatever scenarios you think are coming up. Take space combat feats to handle ship combat until you get planetside then change up your feats to become a combat character. Whatever you want.

EDIT: One note, make sure to say your Droid is made by the Barrowan Arms manufacturer. This gives you +1 to one ability score for no reason.

Ok I just want to mention a few things that are real good right off.
Desperate Gambit: Feat: Re-roll an attack once a turn, amazing
Cleave, Great Cleave, Follow-Through, and Telescopic Limbs: 3 feats and a droid upgrade. It gives you the power to just keep rolling attacks until every fucker around you is dead, move to another location, then kill all those people. It's so cool and an absolute must if you want an absolute melee blender.
Droid Shield Mastery and a Specialized Subprocessor: Feat and Gear. Being able to regenerate 5 shields as a swift action every round is great. Also keeping a little droid inside your chest cavity to also help repair your hp (and possibly shields?) constantly even more amazing. So regenerate shields a lot, and also definitely get a little droid to live in your chest.
Rewriting: Finally it just needs to be mentioned that as a droid you can rewrite every feat and talent you've ever taken so it's actually worth it to have a couple alternate builds written up so that you can just tell your DM "I'm changing to my Piloting protocols". The ability to rewrite your entire character is real crazy and will get smacked down if you make it take table time, so have a few rewrites for Pilot mode, combat mode, sniper mode, or whatever and then just take the 10 minutes and reprogram yourself when beneficial.
Stealth Gear: By 12th level you will easily be able to have every stealth upgrade and piece of stealth gear there is. Get all of them and spare no expense.

OK! Now onto the meat of it. By 12th level you can jump into some cool prestige classes. Lets cover a few options for Prestige Classes

Independent Droid is technically a prestige class but you can get into it by level 4 and every droid takes it because it's very good and you will too. The Talents to look at are Computer Master which lets you re-roll computer checks, and Enhanced Manipulation which lets you take 10 on any Dex check which when combined with all your stealth gear makes you permanently undetectable. Because even though every d20 games stealth system is a garbage fire Enhanced Manipulation lets you say "I always roll a 40 and no one except named characters can ever detect me" and suddenly you can actually stealth your way through Star Destroyers without having to make hundreds of checks that you will inevitably fail.
Infiltrator lets you give your stealth check to your entire party so that's something to consider. Their talents of relevance are Concealed Weapon which lets you re-roll one melee attack a round, Blend In which lets you use Stealth rolls on Deception checks so you'd be able to deceive your way right into Sith HQ, and Silent Takedown which makes people you hit not able to make any sounds or noise. Silent Takedown is kinda silly but it might be relevant in your particular assassiny case.
Martial Arts Master is the absolute final say in becoming a melee monster. Nothing else is really close. The basic class ability is that you’ll heal 4hp every attack you make and you could combine that with some of the healing feats like Fast Surge, Extra Second Wind, and Unstoppable Combatant to be able to heal every attack and then heal ¼ your hp as a free action twice per encounter. Add that to your shield regenerating and you’ll be a seriously thick droid. You could also take the Wruushi Expertise talent which is basically unlimited Stunning Fist, so you can stunlock and Tekken juggle the rare enemy that isn’t exploded by your fist. My favorite are the Unarmed Parry and Unarmed Counterstrike talents which let you make a counter attack any time someone attacks you in melee AND make another roll to cancel their hit on you. The ability to get 3 or 4 attacks on the Sith Lords turn while cancelling his attacks isn’t something anyone can stand against.

One last build option I’ll mention is that you can combine things like the Martial Artist "Tera Kasi Mastery" talent and the Independent Droid talent “Scripted Routines” to open up with two full round attacks in the opening round if you want to. It makes your build a real one trick pony but it also means you can absolutely annihilate 1 person per combat and that might be relevant to you. If you want to keep plumbing that well there's the Assassin "Ruthless" talent that could up it to 3 full attacks, and probably a bunch of 1/encounter feats or talents you could scrounge up to lose your mind in the opening round and have that be your one weird trick.

In conclusion I like your tractor beam idea, I think that’s smart. Blending in with shields and tech and trickery seems totally plausible to me. Don’t ignore internal holographic projectors, or stealth as an alternate path to getting to the Sith Lord. It’s very possible to make a build who’s stealth or deception numbers are absolutely off the charts and that’s a way to guarantee your sneaky droid gets where you want without relying on DM permission so always good to have that in your back pocket.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Thank you, this is extremely helpful. I wonder, is dipping into Melee Duelist for DEX to attack and damage worthwhile (Via Master of Elegance https://swse.fandom.com/wiki/Melee_Duelist_Talent_Tree )?

It seems like +7 dexterity would be more valuable to me for defenses and skills, but I'm not sure if the Talents and Feats that double your strength bonus would go along with the swap or not. Then again, my spy is 4th degree, so they don't get Heavy Duty Actuators.

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https://swse.fandom.com/wiki/Vibroknuckles
"Additionally, while wearing Vibroknuckles, your Unarmed attacks are considered to be both a normal Unarmed attack (Treated as a Simple Weapon (Melee)) as well as an attack with an Advanced Melee Weapon."

The bonus from Weapon Focus is untyped. Is it worthwhile to consider double-dipping so you benefit from Focus in BOTH simple and advanced at once? Houserules in current game give me some extra feats, but I'd like to keep this useful to everyone.

Feat progression is slow enough in the base game that I'm thinking that spending on a +1 to hit is pretty marginal in most cases, though knuckles definitely are nice as a vector for Tech Specialist upgrades.

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EDIT: One thing I'm really struggling with is that I need to actually have a level in Noble or Scoundrel if I want to take Deception as a trained skill. I can't just spend a feat on snagging it out of class, and that's slowing the whole build down.

[Korwin]

Regarding Deception, I'll quote Dean:

Infiltrator lets you give your stealth check to your entire party so that's something to consider. Their talents of relevance are Concealed Weapon which lets you re-roll one melee attack a round, Blend In which lets you use Stealth rolls on Deception checks so you'd be able to deceive your way right into Sith HQ, and Silent Takedown which makes people you hit not able to make any sounds or noise. Silent Takedown is kinda silly but it might be relevant in your particular assassiny case.

[/u]

[Avoraciopoctules]

That's handy to know about. It's still a dip in a +0 BAB class, and a feat tax that is only moderately useful, but it certainly has more to offer this character than Noble.

I spent a long, long time trying to make a Melee Duelist who can Improved Rapid Strike Cleave through a hundred mooks in one round using the stolen laser sword. But it takes more feats for worse damage output. Punching seems like the way to go.