Star Wars SAGA Edition: Characters

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:07 am

Based on the discussions in the other Star Wars threads, it seems people disagree about what stuff is good and what isn't.

Full character sheets only

Relevant numbers should be listed, with full accounting of bonuses.
Posting playable versions of the character at several levels would be nice

PhoneLobster and Dean in particular are invited to participate.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:33 am

Is this about making a viable character for the game or whether or not the game is good itself?

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:33 am

I trust PhoneLobster would love to make a character (or rather a series of characters) who are noble//jedi who donate all their money to the party and lead their allies to victory by burning through dark side points as fast as necessary.

...when your old character is inevitably turned into an NPC, is your new one the same level?

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:41 am

This is about viable characters.

PL kept saying Dean's character builds weren't viable, and other people said that things PL said were good weren't.

I don't play Saga edition, so IDK.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:50 am

MGuy wrote:Is this about making a viable character for the game or whether or not the game is good itself?

I don't think anyone anywhere ever has claimed the game is good. Dean made some posts along the lines of "How to Have Fun With a Bad System: Saga Edition" and PL flew off the handle and made a bunch of stupid claims culminating in a stupid review because to him the analysis is far less important than the conclusion. Most obvious is the argument about evasion, because basically every PC and NPC in Saga has access to AoE weaponry and this makes evasion a solid defense especially against mooks who will virtually never hit you directly because your defensive attributes are so much higher than their offensive attributes.

Foxwarrior wrote:I trust PhoneLobster would love to make a character (or rather a series of characters) who are noble//jedi who donate all their money to the party and lead their allies to victory by burning through dark side points as fast as necessary.

There is nothing particularly Saga-unique about the idea that characters can suicide and leave behind a pile of gear for the surviving party members while that character's player gets to come in with a new character and more gear. The only systems that have explicit mechanisms for dealing with that are shit like GURPS and Hero, as they explicitly encourage DM's to take away toys players haven't personally paid for and to protect the toys they have, and suggest you should make players pay for the things they find and want to keep. For example, do you think 3.5 or Shadowrun handle this problem? Do you think it would be reasonable to talk about D&D builds that are actually infinity suicidal commoners and the one adventurer cousin they each left a handful of copper to?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:22 am

DSMatticus wrote:
Foxwarrior wrote:I trust PhoneLobster would love to make a character (or rather a series of characters) who are noble//jedi who donate all their money to the party and lead their allies to victory by burning through dark side points as fast as necessary.
There is nothing particularly Saga-unique about the idea that characters can suicide and leave behind a pile of gear for the surviving party members

Not only that but it's not necessary. If you play a Droid you don't even have to suicide to get wealth for free. The "Wealth" talent explicitly gives you free money when you level up, so as a Droid you can reprogram yourself to have the "Wealth" talent right before you ding, then get tons of sweet cash, then wipe Wealth off your databanks and replace it with another talent that you'd actually like. Repeat every level and you can get free money for no resources, which actually does work instead of saying "I die and respawn 99 times leaving all my money to my hundredth character" which definitely doesn't in any game that's ever existed.

Anyway I'm down for this but we need Wealth By Level and benchmarks to measure things by. For Wealth By Level there was a FAQ by the Designers where they said

Q: What are the starting credits for a character above 1st level?

A: As a very loose guideline, your wealth at any given level should be something like this: (level x [level -1]) x 2,000 credits*

* Double this for a noble with the Wealth talent.

So I'll go by that, secondly for the benchmarks I've whipped up a short Saga version of the Same Game Test, 10 challenges that all fall within the Challenge Level guidelines of the game.

The Level 5 Challenges
6 Thugs
1 Bounty Hunter
2 Droideka's
2 Wampa's
Luke Skywalker

The Level 10 Challenges
Darth Vader and 5 Stormtroopers
2 Rancors
3 ARC Troopers
6 Droideka
1 AT-AT and 10 Stormtroopers

Something like that seem reasonable? Characters can run through little battle reports and see what they fail on and where they succeed. The fights aren't all identically difficult but they are all plausible fights for each level.

Post by **fbmf** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:13 pm

I know fuck all about Saga ( well, in the last 72 hours I've learned you need Evasion and the Delta Protocol Droid problem exists), but...Vader + 5 mooks is REALLY a CR 10 challenge?!

Game On,
fbmf

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:48 pm

fbmf wrote:but...Vader + 5 mooks is REALLY a CR 10 challenge?!

I agree with him on this. I'm pretty certain they've given stats for the guy, and he was not level 9 or whatever to make that an EL 10 challenge.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:21 pm

virgil wrote:
fbmf wrote:but...Vader + 5 mooks is REALLY a CR 10 challenge?!
I agree with him on this. I'm pretty certain they've given stats for the guy, and he was not level 9 or whatever to make that an EL 10 challenge.

I'm pretty sure it came up that he was like a 19th level character. If that plus a handful of minions actually translates to EL10, then this system is even more insane than I thought.

Or at least it means that EL != CL, so you can't just put a solo character against an on level challenge by himself and expect him to have a 50/50 shot of winning.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:52 pm

I'm showing Vader as CL 19. He is a human with 19 class levels.

Dr_Noface · Post by **Dr_Noface** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:46 pm

It might be because Vader is statted up real bad.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:37 pm

fbmf wrote:I know fuck all about Saga ( well, in the last 72 hours I've learned you need Evasion and the Delta Protocol Droid problem exists), but...Vader + 5 mooks is REALLY a CR 10 challenge?!

Kind of! Vader is level 19, people are right, Luke is level 10 too and he's in the level 5 challenge. They're both there for the same reason. This system's challenge guidelines really do allow for very high level boss fights so I included one in each. Both fights rank in the "Hard and there might be a death" category but they are allowable so I figured I'd include one. Most of the listed fights are hard but if we're doing a Saga version of Charop I thought that would be appropriate. If we wanted I could do a list of "Easy" and "Hard" challenges for each. 5 to establish minimal competence and 5 on hard.

Also what's the Delta Protocol Droid problem?

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:22 pm

Saga's encounter CL formula is really very insane. You are supposed to add up each opponent's CL and divide by three, then subtract one from that for every character in the party more than four or add one to that for every character in the party less than four. If this number is within one of the party level, it's a challenging but not difficult or overwhelming encounter.

Which means Darth Vader (CL 19) and five stormtroopers (CL 1) versus a level 10 character looks like this:
( ( 19 + 5 * 1 ) / 3 ) + 3 = 11; 11 is within 1 of 10. Despite what Dean said, that doesn't even rank in the "hard and there might be death category." That's just an ordinary fight.

It also means that Darth Vader versus a party of nine stormtroopers looks like this:
( ( 19 / 3 ) - 5 = 1; 1 is within 1 of 1.

And it also means that forty-eight stormtroopers versus a party of Darth Vader looks like this:
( ( 16 * 1 / 3 ) + 3 = 19; 19 is within 1 of 19.

So Darth Vader should be challenging but beatable for a party of nine stormtroopers and forty-eight stormtroopers should be challenging but beatable for a party of Darth Vader. Obviously there are some problems here.

The first is that they take a very linear approach to estimating the value of levels. Three level six characters, two level nine characters, and one level eighteen character are all equally difficult because they all add up to the same number of levels. In practice that's almost certainly bullshit.

The second is that their "add/subtract one per missing/extra party member" doesn't work. It is both asymmetrical and totally broken. A level 18 character is a challenging encounter for himself at level 9 (which makes no sense), and a level 9 character is not a challenge for himself at level 18 (which makes even less sense).

We have totally broken the guidelines by using an edge case. But since this thread exists because there is debate about what makes a good Saga character, maybe the fact that the encounters produced by the guidelines are batshit insane is helpful in its own perverse way. But if you wanted sane challenges for one person, you'd have to drop their formula and replace it with something else, like 3 enemy CL per 4 player CL (which is what the formula is with the expected party of four).

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:26 pm

See? A legitimate criticism of SAGA is easy. Their published Adventure, Dawn of Defiance, hews closer to the 3.5 edition way I think.

Anyways, it is a bad way to judge a character since characters are usually in 4 to 6 PC parties and solo adventuring in SAGA, both IRL and online in play-by-post games, is essentially non-existent.

The Skywalker/Vader things are bad fight examples, but the mook and droideka and monster stuff seems reasonable.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:48 pm

My bad. I did the division wrong and though it was higher. But yes the challenge guidelines are definitely not good. I would never defend the Challenge Guidelines as a strength of the system because they are clearly weak. However the fact that they can make hardcore fights does provide a good testing ground for badass builds.

Post by **fbmf** » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:35 pm

Dean wrote: Also what's the Delta Protocol Droid problem?

It was implied in D6 that there is a way to disable a droid's Delta Protocols so it can contribute to combat against living organisms, but exactly how (skill and DC, is it a hardware if software issue) is left up to house rules. Apparently that problem still exists in SAGA.

Game On,
fbmf

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:03 am

Here are what the rules actually say:
1) "The most common restriction coded into a droid's memory is the notion that it can't harm a sentient living being or, through inaction, allow a sentient living being to come to harm." You will notice that that says most common, and it says absolutely fuck all about whether or not players have that restriction.
2) "Fourth-degree droids do not have this restriction." Fourth-degree droids are the combat droids. If you are a PC or NPC fourth-degree droid, you absolutely do not have that restriction, because it makes zero sense.
3) "Droids are under similar strictures not to allow themselves to be harmed unless specifically ordered to do so."
4) "Of course, droids are also hard-wired to obey the commands of their designated masters."
5) Basic processor: "and a droid's behavioral inhibitors may prevent it from harming sentient living beings altogether."
6) Heuristic processor: "A heuristic processor allows a droid to work around its behavioral inhibitors as long as it can justify a given action."

There's actually nothing in the book I've seen that says you have to have behavioral inhibitors as a droid PC at all. So right off the bat you can just say "nah" and then explain in your background why you're not most droids.

If you are a fourth-degree droid, you can murder anyone for any reason at any time.

If you are droid of any degree with any processor with or without behavioral inhibitors, you have a self-defense clause built in.

If you have behavioral inhibitors, aren't a fourth-degree droid, but have a heuristic processor, then you need to justify murdering people first. The example given is by convincing yourself you're preventing more harm than you're causing. If you want to help the Rebels overthrow the Empire, go right ahead because if allowed to persist the cruelty of the Empire will kill fuck knows how many. If you want to help the Empire subjugate the Rebels, go right ahead because if allowed to continue the war will kill fuck knows how many.

If you have behavioral inhibitors, aren't a fourth-degree droid, but have a basic processor, then as far as I can tell your master can tell you to stab people and you will stab people while complaining to your master that his orders violate your behavioral inhibitors. It's somewhat unclear. PC droids don't have to have a master, but they can if they want to, and it can be another party member.

There are a lot of ways around that restriction, arguably including "choose not to have the restriction at all."

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:25 am

fbmf wrote: It was implied in D6 that there is a way to disable a droid's Delta Protocols so it can contribute to combat against living organisms, but exactly how (skill and DC, is it a hardware if software issue) is left up to house rules. Apparently that problem still exists in SAGA.

Phonelobster said that to you and, as I said, if you accept things Phonelobster says you will be wrong as in this case which actually is a simple matter where we can just quote the rulebook at him. We actually did do that and he wrote the same thing in his gish gallop anyway because he is dishonest. After we prove a second time in as many days that PL is making claims in bad faith I hope you change your tactic from asking us to prove every single thing he says wrong to only accepting his claims if he presents strong evidence for them. As it is you have accepted all of his claims with no evidence and will only change your opinion if each one is proven exhaustively wrong. Stop doing that. Stop accepting, without question, the statements of someone you have already acknowledged as arguing deceitfully for incorrect positions on this topic.

Here is the first post where Phonelobster makes the claim that Droids require GM permission to attack, in response to a brawler type character I made called the Punch-Droid. He also makes several other claims that we counter that also appear in his review like how he thinks Droid healing is bad despite it being ludicrously better. Read PL's and my responses for the next page and you will see several more arguments of his that are wrong which then only cause him to go into a trademark dishonesty spiral.

If you want the short version you can just know that the reason Droids can kill people if they want to is because it explicitly says they can as the single written example of the kind of things PC droids can do.

Insomniac · Post by **Insomniac** » Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:14 pm

Will try to have something for the 10th level character stuff, specifically taking things PhoneLobster says is weak like Wealth, Crime Lord, etc.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:41 am

A friend of mine was minmaxing Saga Ed and he basically went for Form IV lightsaber fighting and whored Dex out for high init and Ref defense.

That made me think of Dex whoring, is it possible to make something like Jedi Jesus' gunslinger Jedi? Dual wields blaster pistols and goes first and shoots people to bits?

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:15 am

This one was mostly built already so I'll do him first. Next post I'll do the tenth level version.

PUNCH-DROID: Labor Droid, 5th level: Soldier 4, Scout 1

Str 28
Dex 14
Con -
Int 4
Wis 8
Cha 4

Ref: 22
Fort: 26
Will: 14
Threshold: 26
HP: 50

Attacks: Super Punch +22 (1d6+75), Miniaturized Missile Launcher +1 (6d6+2)

Level 1: Talent: Heavy Duty Actuators, Feat: Slammer
Level 2: Feat: Martial Arts
Level 3: Talent: Hammerblow, Droid Shield Master
Level 4: Feat: Echani Training
Level 5: Talent: Evasion

Skills: One skill of my choice, alterable with 10 minutes notice. Usually it's probably Initiative but the other common ones are Mechanics and Use Computer.
Initiative: +9
Mechanics +4
Use Computer +4

Gear: Corellian Powersuit, Missile Launcher, Combat Gloves, Jet Pack, Microshield, Labor Droid, Glowdroid, Tool Kit, tiny miscellaneous gear like ammo and chips. 15,000 credits.
Droid Upgrades: Shield Generator, Telescopic Limbs, Specialized Subprocessor, Internal Storage Modification

The Punch Droid has a lot of stuff going for him. First of all he can punch almost anything to death in a single hit thanks to his titanic strength and unarmed combat talents. He also has a SR 15 Shield Generator which basically gives him DR 15 which drops by 5 points anytime I take more than 15 damage but regenerates 5 points a round every round thanks to my Shield Mastery feat. The Punch Droid's got a has a miniature spring loaded missile launcher which he can pop out as a free action in case someone wants to take a fight to range, and he has a jet pack because that's sweet. The Punch Droid also has 2 Droid friends he bought or made. One is a simple Labor Droid mostly used for assisting checks during downtime and the other I call "Glowdroid" and I like him the most. Punch Droid took a Glowrod and then stuck processors in it until it became sentient and then gave it little arms and a tiny tool kit. He then reprogrammed Glowdroid to give him Use Computer training and the Tech Specialist feat so that they can modify and improve each other. Glowdroid lives inside a storage space in Punch Droids chest big enough for both Glowdroid and his tools. Anytime Punch Droid has downtime his little light-bulb can reprogram his feats or repair him or upgrade his stats. Also they love each other and are best friends.

Lets get to the fights.

CHALLENGES
6 Thugs: The thugs need nat 20's to hit so this is over before it starts. At range my missile's kill them even on a miss and up close I kill one every punch. Even only killing one every round in melee where they do most damage on average they'll maybe crit me once for 16 damage thanks to my shield. Between my shield and my Reflex defense these guys just can't hurt me. If I decide to fly they are even more fucked because I can just fly and rain death on them while they make pistol shots my shield will completely eat.
Bounty Hunter: This guy's fucked. He's a little faster than me but even getting the first shot on me there's nothing he can do. He hits less than half the time and even on a hit he only gets 6 damage through my shield. Then I move up to him, hit him on anything but a one, and smash my fist through his body like a chestburster Alien.
2 Droideka's: These guys are extremely badass. If I didn't have Evasion they could tear through my shields right quick but I do so fuck em. Their best option is to target me given that is with 4 Burst Fire volleys a round which deal me only 8 damage a round on average. Then I zoom at them on a Jet Pack and falcon punch one to oblivion each round.
2 Wampas: If attacked by some Yeti's in a snowy cave my response would be to give no fucks. Even if they got a surprise round they're just melee beasts and melee is my game. They can jump me, maybe do a little damage, then get fisted.
Luke Skywalker: Luke's the best fight. If he comes in really hard he could deal me a lot of damage in melee or he could try to widdle my health away with move object rolls. Theoretically the move object thing could kinda stunlock me but it would take way too many lucky rolls so I think that's a really bad plan. If he goes into a full melee fury on me I'm gonna get cut up. Luke probably goes first and likely hits me once a round for 20 damage, sometimes getting me twice. If he gets me twice opening round I take 5 and 10 damage through my shields, then on my turn Luke can throw a destiny point to auto-dodge my attack. Next round Luke probably hits me again for 10 damage through my shield (bringing me to 25hp) and auto dodges me again. If I'm at exactly 25hp (half my total) or below I can take a "Second Wind" for 12hp, and if that happens I'll probably win. The worst thing that could happen would be I'd be at 26hp or something just above the minimum and then have Luke get a lucky round of attacks. 3rd round is probably Luke tagging me for another 10 or so then taking my hit for the first time and dropping to 20hp or so before going into our last round in which I have likely have enough HP to survive and then I punch his face in. This fight is the only one thats even a challenge. I have a lot of advantages but the dice would absolutely decide this fight. If he happened to roll high the first two rounds I'm fucked, if I miss (which I do on a 1-2 or 3) at any point that makes it razor thin. My character has better defense and better offense than Luke but it's not out of the range of the RNG for him to take the fight anyway. I'll call this a probable win, but it's not by a lot.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:34 am

Silent Wayfarer wrote:A friend of mine was minmaxing Saga Ed and he basically went for Form IV lightsaber fighting and whored Dex out for high init and Ref defense.

That made me think of Dex whoring, is it possible to make something like Jedi Jesus' gunslinger Jedi? Dual wields blaster pistols and goes first and shoots people to bits?

There are certainly lots of gunslinger builds and dex whoring is an important part of them but there's no particularly synergistic Jedi powers for pistol use that I know of. It's possible I just haven't looked though. Either way as a concept it's totally mechanically viable. Making any concept also a Jedi is really easy in Saga since all it takes is either a feat or a one level dip. If you made a Gunslinger who gunned down people really effectively it would be an incredibly small investment to also be able tell people your droids weren't the ones they're looking for.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:41 am

I know there's no force powers which synch specifically with guns, but IIRC there IS a force power which lets you UtF for init and defense and other crap like that. I dunno. Maybe pull a Magneto on people by ripping their blaster rifles out of their hands and shooting them with their own guns?

Post by **fbmf** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:57 am

Dean and DSM,

There is an NPC droid that we have established in game has delta protocols. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to combat instead of just translating/piloting/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

What are the rules for removing that droid's Delta Protocols?

In D6, we had to house rule it. What's the hard coded rule in SAGA?

If there isn't one, Dean, I'll ask you to take back your accusation that I'm a Thrall of the Lobster.

Game On,
fbmf

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:16 pm

Allow me to counter your hypothetical with another, fbmf:

There is a space dog that we have established is non-sentient. The PCs decide to take him on as a full party member. Awesome! Having him be able to contribute to diplomacy instead of just hunting/tracking/whatever would be a good and joyful thing, yes?

What are the rules for removing that dog's non-sentience?