Angry Drunk Review - 5e Monster Manual: A Modern Relic

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:41 am

RobbyPants wrote: Either the couatl needs an alignment change or that bit needs to be redacted.

This is batshit. Couatl have been described as merely having the capacity to mislead, not a compulsion to do it. Your beef here is basically with free will, and that's fuckin' weird.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:18 am

Whipstitch wrote:
RobbyPants wrote: Either the couatl needs an alignment change or that bit needs to be redacted.
This is batshit. Couatl have been described as merely having the capacity to mislead, not a compulsion to do it. Your beef here is basically with free will, and that's fuckin' weird.

No, the beef is with actively encouraging MCs to be Gygaxian douchebags. The verbiage of that entry is a giant green light to impromptu fuck over your players. And we know that's what it is (and not some well-intended "free will" b.s. fluff), because of all the other OSR callbacks that permeate everything in this "The One Edition".

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:34 am

I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:28 am

Are gryphons still 1/2 the weight of horses? Are hippogryphs still twice as heavy as gryphons?

Are elephants still a higher CR than manticores and hydras?

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:35 am

Hypothetical Paladin player at your table wrote:"It was only a little white lie, how was I supposed to know the poor sap I tricked into going to the temple of doom to get killed or maimed doing my dirty work would actually get killed?

Of course my Paladin can keep his Paladinhood because it was only a little white lie, so it doesn't break the code, right?"

Sure, and oWoD's garou were undisputable paragons of virtue.

P.D: While a Couatl's immunities are technically more relevant than what its stat block tries to pass for its alignment, at the end of the day its scrutiny immunity becomes just as irrelevant because players will read the Couatl's entry, think "pathological troll, ignore on sight" and the whole thing becomes a moot. Short of Dominate Person, MC can't force me to trust this thing, and nothing short of Geas will make me do what it says either.

The Couatl is not even an effective DM-dickery monster like the Mimic or the Animated Rug because, by being so blatant, the thing -begs- to be ignored by your players, it just shoots itself in the foot.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:10 pm

You know the PC should know better than to trust fucking Coutals, because creatures that are incapable of lying are not to be trusted under any circumstances. That's like the first rule of fantasyland.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:13 pm

But... Devils always keep their word right?
So making a deal with the devil is for the greater good!

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:20 pm

Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.

I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".

I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".

One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:13 pm

Dogbert wrote:
Hypothetical Paladin player at your table wrote:"It was only a little white lie, how was I supposed to know the poor sap I tricked into going to the temple of doom to get killed or maimed doing my dirty work would actually get killed?

Of course my Paladin can keep his Paladinhood because it was only a little white lie, so it doesn't break the code, right?"

I'm not exactly sure what your position here is. Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil? Or that any action that does result in any discrete negative outcome is evil? Or ... what?

Is it a matter of consequence? Of honoring autonomy? Of intent?

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:46 pm

RobbyPants wrote:
Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".

I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".

One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.

Well, I'd personally read that line as the second option. There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.

There is, however, the possibility they'll be used as Gygaxian dickery monsters by sending the party to their deaths for what they consider to be a good reason. If you're worried about that, try asking a Coutal if it's doing that. If the answer is anything other than "no", it's probably trying to screw you over. Even Especially if it sounds like no with more words.

Night Goat · Post by **Night Goat** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:16 pm

Then the Gygaxian dickwad will punish you for acting on "out-of-character knowledge". There's no winning with those people.

Zaranthan · Post by **Zaranthan** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:15 pm

Night Goat wrote:Then the Gygaxian dickwad will punish you for acting on "out-of-character knowledge". There's no winning with those people.

That's why you coordinate with your party members to have all the knowledge skills covered: so you can justify just knowing the MM entry IC.

Of course, you're still right. The only winning move is not to play (with those people).

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:17 pm

name_here wrote: There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.

How long have you been following this hobby?
Allow me to introduce you to (osr) D&D.
Again, their stated goal is to re-attract the old-schoolers ... there is a certain connection to be made.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:53 pm

NineInchNall wrote:Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil?

There are lies that cost people a dollar for a good cause, and there are lies that fucking kill people.

People need to stop being obtuse because no one is talking about "all lies being evil", I'm talking about telling someone there's candy at the other side of a bridge that happens to be an illusion on top of the Mortal Kombat pit.

The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.

If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.

* (And just before anyone derails, no, we're not talking about killing Ra's Al Ghul or anyone else whose death would do the world a service, we're talking about the PCs).

ACOS wrote:How long have you been following this hobby?
Allow me to introduce you to (osr) D&D.
Again, their stated goal is to re-attract the old-schoolers ... there is a certain connection to be made.

+1.

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:42 pm

Dogbert wrote: The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.

If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.

Yeah, that is at most CG. Ends justify the means and all.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:08 am

OgreBattle wrote:Are gryphons still 1/2 the weight of horses? Are hippogryphs still twice as heavy as gryphons?

Are elephants still a higher CR than manticores and hydras?

1 - Weights and specific heights/lengths are generally not listed. You don't need that information because your DM Can just make something up. (Drink).
2 - Elephants are CR 4, Manticores are 3 and Hydras are 8

Also, no update until Sunday. You gotta wait a bit, sorry guys.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:26 am

I'm not just being obtuse, people are conflating arguments. You're essentially saying that D&D players cannot be trusted with playing an ostensibly good creature in a manner which is not evil. And certainly I can agree with that--we are talking about D&D, after all, a game with a grand tradition of fucked up moral compasses. However, I was responding mostly to Robbie who felt that such a creature was begging for redactions or an alignment change, something which hits me as misguided overkill since there really isn't anything about the current write up stopping people from using the couatl as an actually good creature. We're talking about a fucking fantasy game here, and misleading people about what the McGuffin can do in order to kill the villain is a time-honored trick.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:32 am

Dogbert wrote:
NineInchNall wrote:Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil?
There are lies that cost people a dollar for a good cause, and there are lies that fucking kill people.

People need to stop being obtuse because no one is talking about "all lies being evil", I'm talking about telling someone there's candy at the other side of a bridge that happens to be an illusion on top of the Mortal Kombat pit.

The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.

If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.

* (And just before anyone derails, no, we're not talking about killing Ra's Al Ghul or anyone else whose death would do the world a service, we're talking about the PCs).

No, actually, we are fucking talking about people whose death would do the world a service, because Couatl can talk to people besides the PCs. Nothing in that sentence actually stops them from being entirely straight up with the PCs.

Also, hell, there are lots of perfectly good reasons to deceive people on your side. For instance, mind reading is a thing in DnD.

ACOS · Post by **ACOS** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:21 am

No, this is about the fact that the 5e rendition of the couatl is a blatant piece of DM troll bait; and that the fluff about the creature is not in line with what the book says LG is.
Generalizations and meticulous alignment debates aren't actually very relevant to that issue.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:33 am

Ya know, never mind, I'm done with this conversation.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:43 am

Most LG creatures can flat-out lie. How is the couatl any worse?

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:39 am

The DM is going to ask for a knowledge check and then tell you the Couatl can't lie. Then they're going to seriously mislead you with the Couatl's words. And if you don't do what the Couatl wants, you're using OOC knowledge and deserve even worse.

That's what it's for. Which is what it is, nothing automatically horrid. I'm sure it means well after all, it is LG. Enjoy your time in the Tomb of Horrors, bitches.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:53 am

tussock wrote:The DM is going to ask for a knowledge check and then tell you the Couatl can't lie. Then they're going to seriously mislead you with the Couatl's words. And if you don't do what the Couatl wants, you're using OOC knowledge and deserve even worse.

Indeed. Gotta love Catch-22.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:32 pm

name_here wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:
Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".

I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".

One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.
Well, I'd personally read that line as the second option. There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.

Yeah, rereading that, I think the second one is the more reasonable interpretation (I hope!). I'll stop being an ass.

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:45 pm

I'd be especially wary of Coatls if there was one of those Judge Dredd type Paladins in my group, screaming I AM THE LAW while attacking neutral druids and such, who've opened the door for "creative" interpretations of Lawful Good.