This is batshit. Couatl have been described as merely having the capacity to mislead, not a compulsion to do it. Your beef here is basically with free will, and that's fuckin' weird.RobbyPants wrote: Either the couatl needs an alignment change or that bit needs to be redacted.
Angry Drunk Review - 5e Monster Manual: A Modern Relic
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Last edited by Whipstitch on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
No, the beef is with actively encouraging MCs to be Gygaxian douchebags. The verbiage of that entry is a giant green light to impromptu fuck over your players. And we know that's what it is (and not some well-intended "free will" b.s. fluff), because of all the other OSR callbacks that permeate everything in this "The One Edition".Whipstitch wrote:This is batshit. Couatl have been described as merely having the capacity to mislead, not a compulsion to do it. Your beef here is basically with free will, and that's fuckin' weird.RobbyPants wrote: Either the couatl needs an alignment change or that bit needs to be redacted.
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I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Hypothetical Paladin player at your table wrote:"It was only a little white lie, how was I supposed to know the poor sap I tricked into going to the temple of doom to get killed or maimed doing my dirty work would actually get killed?
Of course my Paladin can keep his Paladinhood because it was only a little white lie, so it doesn't break the code, right?"
P.D: While a Couatl's immunities are technically more relevant than what its stat block tries to pass for its alignment, at the end of the day its scrutiny immunity becomes just as irrelevant because players will read the Couatl's entry, think "pathological troll, ignore on sight" and the whole thing becomes a moot. Short of Dominate Person, MC can't force me to trust this thing, and nothing short of Geas will make me do what it says either.
The Couatl is not even an effective DM-dickery monster like the Mimic or the Animated Rug because, by being so blatant, the thing -begs- to be ignored by your players, it just shoots itself in the foot.
Last edited by Dogbert on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
But... Devils always keep their word right?
So making a deal with the devil is for the greater good!
So making a deal with the devil is for the greater good!
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
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I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".
One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.
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I'm not exactly sure what your position here is. Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil? Or that any action that does result in any discrete negative outcome is evil? Or ... what?Dogbert wrote:Hypothetical Paladin player at your table wrote:"It was only a little white lie, how was I supposed to know the poor sap I tricked into going to the temple of doom to get killed or maimed doing my dirty work would actually get killed?
Of course my Paladin can keep his Paladinhood because it was only a little white lie, so it doesn't break the code, right?"
Is it a matter of consequence? Of honoring autonomy? Of intent?
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Well, I'd personally read that line as the second option. There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.RobbyPants wrote:I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".
One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.
There is, however, the possibility they'll be used as Gygaxian dickery monsters by sending the party to their deaths for what they consider to be a good reason. If you're worried about that, try asking a Coutal if it's doing that. If the answer is anything other than "no", it's probably trying to screw you over. Even Especially if it sounds like no with more words.
Last edited by name_here on Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
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That's why you coordinate with your party members to have all the knowledge skills covered: so you can justify just knowing the MM entry IC.Night Goat wrote:Then the Gygaxian dickwad will punish you for acting on "out-of-character knowledge". There's no winning with those people.
Of course, you're still right. The only winning move is not to play (with those people).
How long have you been following this hobby?name_here wrote: There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.
Allow me to introduce you to (osr) D&D.
Again, their stated goal is to re-attract the old-schoolers ... there is a certain connection to be made.
There are lies that cost people a dollar for a good cause, and there are lies that fucking kill people.NineInchNall wrote:Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil?
People need to stop being obtuse because no one is talking about "all lies being evil", I'm talking about telling someone there's candy at the other side of a bridge that happens to be an illusion on top of the Mortal Kombat pit.
The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.
If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.
* (And just before anyone derails, no, we're not talking about killing Ra's Al Ghul or anyone else whose death would do the world a service, we're talking about the PCs).
+1.ACOS wrote:How long have you been following this hobby?
Allow me to introduce you to (osr) D&D.
Again, their stated goal is to re-attract the old-schoolers ... there is a certain connection to be made.
Last edited by Dogbert on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Yeah, that is at most CG. Ends justify the means and all.Dogbert wrote: The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.
If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.
1 - Weights and specific heights/lengths are generally not listed. You don't need that information because your DM Can just make something up. (Drink).OgreBattle wrote:Are gryphons still 1/2 the weight of horses? Are hippogryphs still twice as heavy as gryphons?
Are elephants still a higher CR than manticores and hydras?
2 - Elephants are CR 4, Manticores are 3 and Hydras are 8
Also, no update until Sunday. You gotta wait a bit, sorry guys.
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I'm not just being obtuse, people are conflating arguments. You're essentially saying that D&D players cannot be trusted with playing an ostensibly good creature in a manner which is not evil. And certainly I can agree with that--we are talking about D&D, after all, a game with a grand tradition of fucked up moral compasses. However, I was responding mostly to Robbie who felt that such a creature was begging for redactions or an alignment change, something which hits me as misguided overkill since there really isn't anything about the current write up stopping people from using the couatl as an actually good creature. We're talking about a fucking fantasy game here, and misleading people about what the McGuffin can do in order to kill the villain is a time-honored trick.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
No, actually, we are fucking talking about people whose death would do the world a service, because Couatl can talk to people besides the PCs. Nothing in that sentence actually stops them from being entirely straight up with the PCs.Dogbert wrote:There are lies that cost people a dollar for a good cause, and there are lies that fucking kill people.NineInchNall wrote:Are you suggesting that all lying is evil? Or that any action that could result in any discrete (as opposed to aggregate) negative outcome is evil?
People need to stop being obtuse because no one is talking about "all lies being evil", I'm talking about telling someone there's candy at the other side of a bridge that happens to be an illusion on top of the Mortal Kombat pit.
The Couatl -knows- it's potentially sending you to your death, and it does so by lying, because it knows if it levelled with you, you'd probably say no. "I won't kill you but I don't have to save you" may sound pretty in Nolan's Batman but it's still murder by omission*.
If the thing was actually lawful good, it would tell you everything you need to know straight up and grant you all the help it could give all along the way, not play Mephistopheles with you.
* (And just before anyone derails, no, we're not talking about killing Ra's Al Ghul or anyone else whose death would do the world a service, we're talking about the PCs).
Also, hell, there are lots of perfectly good reasons to deceive people on your side. For instance, mind reading is a thing in DnD.
Last edited by name_here on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
No, this is about the fact that the 5e rendition of the couatl is a blatant piece of DM troll bait; and that the fluff about the creature is not in line with what the book says LG is.
Generalizations and meticulous alignment debates aren't actually very relevant to that issue.
Generalizations and meticulous alignment debates aren't actually very relevant to that issue.
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Ya know, never mind, I'm done with this conversation.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
Most LG creatures can flat-out lie. How is the couatl any worse?
virgil wrote:Lovecraft didn't later add a love triangle between Dagon, Chtulhu, & the Colour-Out-of-Space; only to have it broken up through cyber-bullying by the King in Yellow.
FrankTrollman wrote:If your enemy is fucking Gravity, are you helping or hindering it by putting things on high shelves? I don't fucking know! That's not even a thing. Your enemy can't be Gravity, because that's stupid.
The DM is going to ask for a knowledge check and then tell you the Couatl can't lie. Then they're going to seriously mislead you with the Couatl's words. And if you don't do what the Couatl wants, you're using OOC knowledge and deserve even worse.
That's what it's for. Which is what it is, nothing automatically horrid. I'm sure it means well after all, it is LG. Enjoy your time in the Tomb of Horrors, bitches.
That's what it's for. Which is what it is, nothing automatically horrid. I'm sure it means well after all, it is LG. Enjoy your time in the Tomb of Horrors, bitches.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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Yeah, rereading that, I think the second one is the more reasonable interpretation (I hope!). I'll stop being an ass.name_here wrote:Well, I'd personally read that line as the second option. There's no reason to assume that they deliberately send innocent people to pointless deaths just because they can.RobbyPants wrote:I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".Whipstitch wrote:I already acknowledged that it'll be used to dick over people. That's because the thing that makes the couatl a gygaxian dickery monster is the bloated hit points and grab bag of immunities. yet nobody seems to be talking about removing that shit. Instead,alignment is getting brought up as if that would change anything, which it fucking wouldn't. There's reasons to object to the couatl but the manner in which it fibs is not a big fuckin' deal.
I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".
One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.
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