D&D 5e has failed

[Koumei]

But Pathfinder also sucks, nobody wins.

It's reduced to Pathfinder Society at conventions here. That's not exactly them swimming in success. There used to be loads of D&D games, but then the fire nation attacked4E came along.

As for the trident... I can see why they'd make it limited use in 3Ed: out of the misguided belief that commanding fish is a useful ability that needs limiting in order to keep the item price down, in accordance with the arcane magic item costing formulae. It's wrong, but it's the way they rolled. I mean, everyone has met someone who claimed a 2,000GP item should give Mage Armour always-on (compared to the 16K for +4 Bracers) and another 2K for a constant Shield.

(I assume the rebuttal was also "Well technically I can have a stick that casts CL 20 Wail of the Banshee once per ten years for... spare change. I'll buy a bunch of these!")

In 4E, everything has to follow some form of daily uses, so I'd expect it, and 5E is just shit. But 1 and 2E? You'd think it'd be at will for them.

[Eikre]

Ooh, ooh, Penny Arcade guys getting a little surly. Seems like just yesterday that they were training their idiot illustrator to clap along to babby's first dungeoncrawl and now they're callin' the bullshit like real people.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Isn't PA composed of a pair of petty hypocrites who'd rather toss donations for orphans than admit their detractors have a point (see Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco)

[Koumei]

More or less. I mean, they do gaming-related webcomics that have a better track record of being funny than most gaming-related webcomics. This is actually all they "need" to do, because they're not listed as being philosophers or activists or anything. And they fund a nice charity.

But if you want to talk about them as people, they're hypocrites and cockbags who are pretty unpleasant when interacting with others. When presented with a proper foe (anyone remember Jack Thompson?) it becomes a delightful show and people can cheer along because they give a full Kaelik or two to him. Lacking such a foe, they're just a pair of assholes to anyone around them.

Also is the problem where their fans tend to be... well, basically, they are the embodiment of the negative portrayal of "gamers". So someone overreacts about something in a comic (I don't take issue with dickwolves, I found that comic to be funny). Then a legion of PA fans send all manner of threats and put their fedoras on. And Gabe and Tycho just sort of high-five them over it rather than saying "Guys, you're giving us a bad name".

[Silent Wayfarer]

So I'm thinking maybe D&D 5e fucked them over, and now they see no reason to continue sucking their cocks, instead reverting to sucking each others' cocks.

[erik]

If y'all read the textcerpt from today's strip, Jerry apparently still has a hard-on for WotC/DnD. That strip is poking fun at a stupid item but there's no teeth behind it.

There’s a pretty long tradition, though, of goofypants items that go somewhat beyond the Sword +1 in these books. Gonzo shit. The one we talk about in today’s strip isn’t even that weird, I don’t think, but it’s of a piece with highly specialized implements that are vital for very specific campaigns. I was about to say “ha, ha” imagine if this ended up on Athas, and how useless that would be, but then I thought about what a profound discovery such a thing would actually represent; it is hard evidence, essentially, of a radically different planet peopled (and apparently “fished”) by radically different… people. And fish. Now I’m thinking about it really hard and it is taking up the cycles I use to form speech.

Now I want to run that game. Hmm.

[K]

But Pathfinder also sucks, nobody wins.

It's reduced to Pathfinder Society at conventions here. That's not exactly them swimming in success. There used to be loads of D&D games, but then the fire nation attacked4E came along.

As for the trident... I can see why they'd make it limited use in 3Ed: out of the misguided belief that commanding fish is a useful ability that needs limiting in order to keep the item price down, in accordance with the arcane magic item costing formulae. It's wrong, but it's the way they rolled. I mean, everyone has met someone who claimed a 2,000GP item should give Mage Armour always-on (compared to the 16K for +4 Bracers) and another 2K for a constant Shield.

(I assume the rebuttal was also "Well technically I can have a stick that casts CL 20 Wail of the Banshee once per ten years for... spare change. I'll buy a bunch of these!")

In 4E, everything has to follow some form of daily uses, so I'd expect it, and 5E is just shit. But 1 and 2E? You'd think it'd be at will for them.

The thing to remember is that 3e is the edition where they deliberately tried to make Diablo-style items. Diablo 2 items don't do interesting things for the most part as a design choice because it's a lot easier to program that way.

It's really a shame that 5e has continued the long tradition of trying to make tabletop RPGs for computer RPGs.

[Longes]

Does "aquatic animals" include every race with the aquatic template? Because that would make the trident pretty useful in some adventures.

[ishy]

In 5e's defense (and oh how it pains me to say that), the trident has always been a limited-use item:

Not always. In OD&D the Trident of fish control could control any non-air breathing swimming creature and had no mention of charges.

[Schleiermacher]

Does "aquatic animals" include every race with the aquatic template? Because that would make the trident pretty useful in some adventures.

Obviously not. It only includes things with the "animal" type.

[Judging__Eagle]

It's really a shame that 5e has continued the long tradition of trying to make tabletop RPGs for computer RPGs.

K,

How would you distinguish and separate between the two types?

[Whipstitch]

CRPGs/diablo style loot treadmills tend to differentiate things primarily thorugh numbers, since that's how computers already do shit. All the downtime associated with shuffling small bonuses around or tracking uses gets automagically handled for the end user so it takes relatively little time for people to trade a +1 sword for a +2 sword. Sure, such an obvious choice is the gaming equivalent of empty calories, but by giving people things that are just objectively better than what they had previously you can tickle them right in the lizard brain, and that demonstrably counts for something. Also, the dev team gets to pull a Borderlands and brag about having absurd amounts of procedurally generated content even if much of that content consists of guns you never bother to pick up off ground. Such games have about as much in common with Idle/Time Management browser games as they do with running a LARP or improv.

In ttrpgs, however, all that "content" can easily start feeling like busy work. You're running the math yourself and if a +3 doodad isn't really any better than a +1 doodad the proof is going to be right there in your scratch paper and make you start wondering why the fuck you bothered. It's the sort of environment where you're often better served having items and abilities flip yes/no toggles than bothering with incremental bullshit. For example, the Apparatus of Kwalish is often considered to be kind of a joke in table top, but it does let you go places that you may not have been able to go before, which gives it some legs as a memorable mcguffin. In the book adapatation of your campaign it's way more likely to be mentioned than the time you traded in your masterwork sword for a +1 sword. Meanwhile, in a crpg the thing is unlikely to even be an option--adding in a water cut scene takes a shit ton of work compared to having your DM pull out his best Jacques Cousteau impression.

[zugschef]

It's really a shame that 5e has continued the long tradition of trying to make tabletop RPGs for computer RPGs.

K,

How would you distinguish and separate between the two types?

I'm not K, but it's kinda obvious, isn't it? You have to focus on the strengths of the medium you're using. With computers it's heavy math. You can use clunky systems with piles of numbers because the player doesn't have to do the math. With tabletop games it's flexibility. A computer program can only react within its parameters but a gaming table can do pretty much anything.

In terms of items it's king's sword of haste for crpgs and trident of fish command for tabletop games.

The first one is simply a mechanical boost, the second gives you a new ability with impact on several levels and not only the mechanical.

[K]

It's really a shame that 5e has continued the long tradition of trying to make tabletop RPGs for computer RPGs.

K,

How would you distinguish and separate between the two types?

CRPGs relies heavily on numbers to give the illusion of abilities and TTRPGs tend to have actual subsystems, some that might require adjudication by a human.

This means CRPGs will rely heavily on the +1 sword where TTRPGs will have the freedom to have unique subsystems like player-generated illusions that may require DM adjudication.

Of course, there is cross-pollination between the two types. There are tabletop games where almost everything is a math function (4e DnD) and CRPGs where there are enough cleverly programmed subsystems to almost give the illusion of being a tabletop RPG (Dishonored).

[zugschef]

Haha all three responses where posted at the same time.

[souran]

The penny arcade guys have stepped in it more than once. However, that still means that they have manged to do less than half the typical offensive/sexist/stupid/insulting/condecending stuff that most video game webcomics have done especially for how long they have been doing the comic. They are often not at all savvy to what they are actually talking about (see the 5E preview where Tyco says that the awesome thing about being a healer in 4E is that you can heal and do something else each turn so its not a chore and then Mike Mearls tells him that he won't be able to do that anymore and he says "wow thats great!").

[OgreBattle]

video game RPG's are best with real time action and player skill.

In Dragon's Dogma, there's an ultimate ranger move called "Gamble draw" where you consume all yer stamina to fire an arrow in slow motion that can be directed for about 5 seconds. If you hit a monster's critical weakpoint with it such as a dragon in the eye (Which is basically impossible to hit if you aren't carefully aiming against a target that is staying still), it has the power to one-shot it.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2012 ... Gamble.gif

So it requires a fair amount of player skill and timing to pull off. If you practice you can pull it off pretty consistently. In a tabletop RPG though you'd need restrictions like "called shots are -% to hit" or "1/day to use"

[Whipstitch]

The penny arcade guys have stepped in it more than once. However, that still means that they have manged to do less than half the typical offensive/sexist/stupid/insulting/condecending stuff that most video game webcomics have done especially for how long they have been doing the comic. They are often not at all savvy to what they are actually talking about (see the 5E preview where Tyco says that the awesome thing about being a healer in 4E is that you can heal and do something else each turn so its not a chore and then Mike Mearls tells him that he won't be able to do that anymore and he says "wow thats great!").

I also get the impression that Gabe's experience in D&D comes primarily from the DM's seat,* and so he doesn't seem to quite grok the anxiety players sometimes experience when the rules don't give a very clear idea of what a "normal" game experience is supposed to look like. For example, I've seen shit of him talking with Mearls' and his response to various problems people have with 4e magic boiled down to "What's the problem? I can already do/allow anything I want." It didn't seem to occur to him that Mother-May-I doesn't feel particularly empowering even if you're playing with a fairly permissive DM or that players may very well be sandbagging lest they incur the wrath of the group.



*At least, I haven't heard of him talk about playing much aside from some early experiences as one Jim Darkmagic.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I totes agree with Whipstitch there. I haven't played or ran any 5E D&D, but I have DMed quite a few games of 4E D&D. A lot of the things I strongly dislike about 4E D&D aren't really noticeable from the vantage point of the DM. Directing a bunch of 1 hit point wonders is counterintuitively less disempowering than overcoming them; if you're running 12 monsters in a fight then the quirks and failings of the class and powers system can actually be kind of fun. If the plot calls for a dashing airship captain to show up or an abandoned fortress for the PCs to spruce up, you can just have it happen as the DM.

It makes me wonder if 4E and 5E D&D were designed more with DMs in mind than players. Lord knows the devs don't see anything wrong with liberally using the 'ask your DM if that's a problem' excuse and that apologists for both editions to tell you that if the game can't go the way the you want without the DM's permission then it's the DM's fault.

[Koumei]

Well, people were excited to tell me how 4E solved the 3E problem of players having too much power and affecting the world/story too much.

[ishy]

When I dm'd a 4e game, I felt annoyed that whenever I wanted my players to be able to do something out of the ordinary, I had to create custom rules / items / etc. for them.

It felt like you couldn't tell anything but low level stories, unless you rewrote the entire game.

[Silent Wayfarer]

I hated my (few) experiences with 4e, but I noticed that whenever people gushed about how awesome 4e was and how much fun they had, that they were using liberal amounts of houserules and mind caulk.

[Longes]

Cleric Death domain is an evil-only PC option in DMG, requiring explicit GM's approval. Kelemvor and Wee Jas are both Lawful Neutral. Bite my shiny metal ass, 5e.

[Insomniac]

Maybe if you ask the DM very nicely (get him a beer and buy the pizza this week) he'll let you put LN on your sheet and let you cleric worship Kelemvor

[Longes]

Oh, you can totaly be a cleric of Kelemvor. But being cleric of Kelemvor with Death domain requires special permission. And is an explicitly evil-pc option.