D&D 5e has failed

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:he first thing I notice is that weapons and armor totally have bonuses, just like we were told that they wouldn't.
Huh? When was this promise made?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Krusk wrote:All thats left is the dm book with magic items which specifically dont increase your numbers and maybe the stealth rules.
(Emphasis mine.)

I was remembering this chunk of discussion. Was that not a thing? I admit to having paid the whole thing as little attention as possible, but I thought that part of bounded accuracy and such was not having up to a 6-point shift (more with ring of protection and shit) on your AC based on treasure rolls.
Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Well, I mean, when was this specific promise made by Mike Mearls? Don't get me wrong, I was expecting +4 shields and shit -- but I would've predicted it was because Mike Mearls was too stupid to really 'get' bounded accuracy more than intentional malice on his part.

And anyway, the DMG can always wimp out by saying that treasure drops are optional and it's the DM's responsibility so your 30 AC paladin is YOUR DM'S FAULT GIVE ME MORE MONEY.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Insomniac »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The DMGNext just came into my store. The first thing I notice is that weapons and armor totally have bonuses, just like we were told that they wouldn't.
That is pretty funny, because even something that is a mandatory purchase in 3.5/Pathfinder (Big 6 Items AKA Magical Christmas Tree Effect) will throw a PC crafted even somewhat competently straight off the RNG. Something like +3 to attack and damage, or +3 to saves, which are mandatory purchases in prior incarnations of Dungeons and Dragons, stomp all over the concept of Bounded Accuracy.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Magic items up to +3 were in the Basic Rules back before the Monster Manual came out, though I can't find them in the PHB. Did people just not see them there?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

angelfromanotherpin, does the game have any way of providing treasure drops outside of raw DM fiat? And if it does, are these things 'optional'? And if they're 'optional', are they totally subject to DM fiat or does the game put a caveat on it like 'your DM must use one of these four methods'?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:does the game put a caveat on it like 'your DM must
From what I can tell, 5e never uses the phrase "your DM must" anything. Expecting to see it here seems like a forlorn hope. 5e should be called the Crowley edition.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:angelfromanotherpin, does the game have any way of providing treasure drops outside of raw DM fiat? And if it does, are these things 'optional'? And if they're 'optional', are they totally subject to DM fiat or does the game put a caveat on it like 'your DM must use one of these four methods'?
No, it's all fiat. There are a bunch of weasel phrases like 'the placement of treasure is left to your discretion,' and 'you can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want.'

They do, however, lay down a very specific baseline expectation: 'Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0-4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5-10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11-16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table.'

And the clear default way that the PCs get those drops is that critters have treasure that can be taken after they are killed, because there's a lot of text about how to determine what treasure a monster has, how to justify them having it (if they're mindless or animals, or whatever), and how they might use appropriate magic gear in their treasure package. There's a little stuff on getting your treasure drops as gifts from a wealthy patron and such, but that's obviously an afterthought.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Wow. For a whole party over the course of a campaign that's kind of miserly, unless the average treasure is stuff that's totally badass. 4E D&D, which you were expected to supplement with bought or crafted items, posited that a five-person group was expected to get at least four magical items a level for 29 levels and parties could easily acquire twice that. Granted, a lot of the treasure sucked ass and were cynical upgrades, but still. Bunch fucking Scrooges.

EDIT: Unless the campaign was for less than 20 levels, of course.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Dogbert »

The problem here isn't the lack of magic items, it's the lack of motivation to be a murderhobo, period.

Monsters no longer have entries for loot drops, gold is worth fuck-all other than buying proficiencies (good luck finding a DM who actually gives you such big downtimes), and the DM is no longer obligated to give you jackshit so, why are we all here again?

Between the lack of an IC raison d'etre, being a world with no need for "heroes", DM fellatio as the go-to default resolution mechanic, fluff/crunch dissonance, and the demoralizing knowledge that Mearls didn't even try this time, I think I'm pretty much done with this edition. It feels like a rather dishonest product, and playing/supporting it feels like taking bribe money from Climate Change Deniers. It makes me feel dirty inside.

Last week I switched the playtest game to PF just to see how it felt like... and sweet Madokami, even with the watered-down spell magic, it feels soooo much better.
Last edited by Dogbert on Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

>PF
>watered down spell magic


U wot m8? Outside of the at-will blasts being better in 5e, I would assume that PF has more juice for casters. There is a fair bit of stupid shit in Pathfinder for full casters. Are you talking about the existence of 2/3rds and half casters or am I missing something?

Granted, I haven't cracked open a 5e book. Can't be fucked, even though I could conceivably get the DMG as a birthday present.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

Mask_De_H wrote: Granted, I haven't cracked open a 5e book. Can't be fucked, even though I could conceivably get the DMG as a birthday present.
Judging by the comments here, that would be like getting two broken legs for a birthday present.
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Post by Dogbert »

Mask_De_H wrote:Outside of the at-will blasts being better in 5e, I would assume that PF has more juice for casters. There is a fair bit of stupid shit in Pathfinder for full casters. Are you talking about the existence of 2/3rds and half casters or am I missing something?
Range and duration of both utility and plot-affecting spells are greater in 5E. You can only have 1 buff at a time, but the buff will reliably be with you the whole combat. Also, many utility spells no longer use up spell slots and are technically at-wills (rituals). Basically, 5E spellcasters are more spellcasters than gadgeteers.

Alas, the magic and backgrounds are 5E's only two saving graces, and they're not enough to save the game in my book. The extra magic isn't worth losing all player agency, and the depth you get with backgrounds isn't anything you can't get with both skill-granting Traits and Gestalt characters.

In any case, both editions have something in common: NONE are something I'd touch with a 10ft. pole in "RAW, Core Only, Final Destination" mode, so if I'm going to be banking in player options and 3.5 stuff, I might as well do it in the most genuine system (or the one that requires less fellatio at least).
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Post by Insomniac »

I guess we'll know better come July after it has been out for a year. I just don't think they are that successful, no buzz, I don't know anybody on campus who has converted to 5E and I tried to get a group to bite on it. They all flatly refused for 3.5/Pathfinder hybrids with some houserules. Can't say I blame 'em either.

It used to be that you could get people to learn Dungeons and Dragons because, dude, its Dungeons and Dragons. Sometimes it is the only game in town and you gotta know the rules, right?

3.5 holdouts and Pathfinder adopters have really taken that argument away.

"Dude, you gotta know 5E."

"Why? Everybody plays 3.5 and Pathfinder here. There are even 2 4E groups. It would make more sense for me to learn 4E now and that is an officially dead edition."

Well, fuck me, but he's not wrong!
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Post by TheFlatline »

I've heard some buzz about 5e, but it's mostly from *really* old school players (1st edition AD&D) and people who have never played D&D before. 3.x/Pathfinder and 4e kind have consumed the existing player base.

I have no interest in the game until the DMG comes out, and even then I'm so damn *tired* of D&D that I might not be able to muster a fuck to give about it then either.
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Post by infected slut princess »

I thought the following tiers of play from the 5e DMG were totally fucking hilariously stupid.

Levels 1 to 4: Local Heroes
Levels 5 to 10: Heroes of the Realm
Levels 11 to 16: Masters of the Realm
Levels 17 to 20: Masters of the Worlds.

This is hilarious because it only takes a dozen Local Heroes to kill a Master of the Worlds. So no one cares about being a Master of the Worlds because you are still a loser and it's just pathetic.

Really, there is only one tier of play in 5e:

Levels 1 to 20: Bulk Rate Loser

-----------

5e is a complete disaster. They aren't publicly fapping about their sales so their sales probably suck. The DMG is months late so they still don't even have a full game on the market.

Mike Mearls and his team of retards have gone past the point of no return. 4e was a horrible failure but at least 5e provided an opportunity to get things back on track. Instead, we got a game that is probably inferior to 2e, if you can believe it. So they blew their chance.

I expect Hasbro will eliminate its WotC D&D division and fire everyone within 12 months. They can probably use the money elsewhere and get more profits. Basically, as long as they are paying Mearls and his team of retards, they might as well just light their money on fire. The D&D IP will be shelved indefinitely. If a good strategic buyer comes along, conceivably they might sell it. Otherwise, I expect 5e is the last we will hear of D&D for a long time.

So now it's too late to have a D&D edition that is "3E... but with important improvements." Because 6e is never going to happen.
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Post by Insomniac »

I think those people would have their hands full with Full Casters, maybe. Or something with lots of minions like a Necromancer. But a Level 17 non-caster will likely just eat a couple longbow volleys and be dead.

This is the second edition of Dungeons and Dragons in a row where "Horseback Archery" invalidates nearly every foe.
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Post by erik »

Oh, I'm sure 5e will make a profit, so they didn't light money on fire. But it will be a continuation of disappointment.

I'm sure Hasbro would be happier making millions rather than thousands. I believe it was suggested that the upper threshold for Hasbro taking a bigger interest was $50M, but I don't know what their lower threshold is for canning a project. It could easily be argued that 5e (and 4e) are causing the D&D brand to lose value, but same goes for not making anything. It could be argued that putting out garbage so long as it doesn't lose money, is better than nothing.

So there will be a 6e. They probably won't call it 6e, because that just calls attention to the shame of the last editions. Either they will do shovelware, or more likely will be a radical departure from standard ttrpg. It may be something like D&D Infinity with miniatures that tie in to online content made by a serious computer/console gaming company.
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Post by Dogbert »

erik wrote:It may be something like D&D Infinity with miniatures that tie in to online content made by a serious computer/console gaming company.
Now this I can see happening, depending on the Success of Disney and Nintendo on that venture.
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Post by Insomniac »

They've tried Miniatures and there is no way they'll be able to do some competent tie-in with a video game.

Hasbro should put out another movie, and not some straight to the garbage pail
Z lister, a big budget affair like LOTR.
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Post by erik »

They could do a competent tie-in, they've so far just aimed for low-hanging fruits and used incompetent or otherwise troubled companies since an online tabletop isn't that demanding of a project and they thought they could go with say, a group that musters a few sentences of stupid parody fiction per week in output. There are lots of decent professional game studios out there that could make something happen.

They would also need actual RPG game designers, not smarmy self-marketeers who artfully dodged through the repeated christmas layoffs without having design gravitas. Honestly they'd have better luck finding talent in the computer gaming industry than most known ttRPG names since at least the computer folks largely know how to deal with math and are professionally trained at making games. There's no ttRPG design degree so it's a crapshoot at finding talent, which is why the industry is so incestuous and full of inbred garbage.

Now, if Hasbro was going to do a movie or somesuch, I think they'd fare better with a cartoon than a LotR rip-off. Cartoons they have expertise at, big budget movies... notsomuch. That's just setting up for failure.
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Post by Dean »

Insomniac wrote: Hasbro should put out another movie, and not some straight to the garbage pail
Z lister, a big budget affair like LOTR.
D&D is making a couple million as an entire brand. I work at a theatre that takes in about that much a year. If my movie theatre started failing we would not create a 300 million dollar motion picture about it in order to drive up business. You have to succeed to have billion-dollar gambles taken on you, not fail repeatedly.
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Post by ACOS »

So, AngryDM did a little interview with the guys from Dungeonscape/Codename:Morningstar. All I can do is shake my face-palmed head at WotC.
There's a little "reading between the lines" to do; but it is apparent to me that WotC is pant-shittingly afraid of losing their thorns and bushes.
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Post by Dogbert »

"Muh rules!"

Really? What's Mearls so afraid of? It's not like 5E has any rules to lose anyway. :cool:
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Post by Maxus »

"Thorns and bushes?"

I can't say I've heard that one before. Would you please clarify?
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