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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sir Aubergine wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:
Mind elaborating a bit on the warriors? I vaguely remember high level monsters being disappointingly boring sacks of shit that could be owned trivially by a necromancer or a diviner.


"Don't melee it stupid," is alive and well. If you don't have very high AC or damage resistance (both is preferable), you will get cut down like a dog wading into melee with high level monsters. They are more accurate and hit harder than you do, and their attacks often get rider effects, while you get: A magic weapon and a magic shield! Rolling Eyes


Well... no. Actually most of this is wrong.

In 5e, being in melee largely isn't up to you. Movement shenanigans don't move you very far, and starting with fucking orcs (bonus move action every turn), monsters are often faster than you, or have more or better movement modes, especially at high levels. If a big red dragon wants to be in your face, there is very little you can do about it beyond dimension dooring out of the fight completely.

More accurate is... pretty much completely false. Monsters cap out at +17... for the CR 23 monsters. CR 20 are +14, or exactly the same as a level 20 PC with a 20 stat and a +3 weapon (Prof is +6), and belts of giant strength bullshit can push this higher, as does just being a level 20 barbarian. But monster ACs are decidedly lower- Pit Fiends aren't even breaking AC 20, and Ancient Reds are only 22. A fighter can sport +3 plate and +3 shield and wander around as AC26, and there is other shit that you can stack on top (ring and fighting style push to 28, and then spells and shit on top). That's a pretty damn big swing- the PC is hitting the pit fiend on fucking 5s, and the PF is hitting back on 12s, minimum. Even if the PC is not pushing AC past 26 (though they can), they've still got the accuracy edge on the ancient red, needing 8s rather than 9s.

Resistances and AC are obviously useful though, because bullshit actions and lair bullshit actions add a fuckton of extra rolls to the monster's side.


As for magic sword and magic shield (or 3 ever!)... uh, no. 5e has a shitload of magic items, and while attunement limits some things, it doesn't have any impact on basic +1 or +3 weapons or armor, and there is a bunch of other shit you can pile on before you even have to care about attunement. At that level what you need attunement for is flight, resistances and speciality stuff like free action or mind shielding. Fact is, a lot of the attunement requiring weapons are just trash compared to having a +3 to hit and damage. Even shit like the frost brand has no bonus and deals +1d6 cold, gives you resist frost, and can snuff non-magic fires. That isn't worth a slot or losing +3 to hit. Let's not even talk about the trident of fish command.

And the random treasure tables in the DMG hand out potentially boatloads of magic items in treasure piles, in a very 1e random nonsense kind of way- in that your first Challenge 0 [whatever challenge 0 would be] treasure pile could spit out anything from literally nothing beyond large piles of copper and silver to wings of flying or a +2 weapon.


But if you really want to show 5e at its worst, throw low level fey against a party. Satyrs are CR 1/2 and have 31 goddamn hit points, Pixies are CR 1/4 and have fuck you invisibility, flight, confusion, polymorph, sleep, entangle, phantasmal force and detect thoughts. (Because spells are basically ignored when it comes to calculating CR in 5e)

4 of each are 'supposedly' a match for 3rd level party, are 127 bloody HP to chew through, and feature invisible flying fucks creating restrained rabbit choke-play deathmatches out of the party, while the satyrs just fucking tank.


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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I hate Black Puddings.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:

4 of each are 'supposedly' a match for 3rd level party, are 127 bloody HP to chew through, and feature invisible flying fucks creating restrained rabbit choke-play deathmatches out of the party, while the satyrs just fucking tank.


Small point of order but Invisibility ends when the character does literally anything besides move. It's for positioning and ambushes, or running away, not kiting with perma-advantage (that's what greater invis is for).
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

shinimasu wrote:
Voss wrote:

4 of each are 'supposedly' a match for 3rd level party, are 127 bloody HP to chew through, and feature invisible flying fucks creating restrained rabbit choke-play deathmatches out of the party, while the satyrs just fucking tank.


Small point of order but Invisibility ends when the character does literally anything besides move. It's for positioning and ambushes, or running away, not kiting with perma-advantage (that's what greater invis is for).


Nope. The invisibility spell does*. But pixies have a special snowflake superior invisibility which is limited only by concentration- it's closer to but better than greater invisibility, because it lacks a duration.

Because special snowflake monster bullshit rules. And also edition changes- quite a few of the buff spells and magic items don't do what you'd think if you're familiar with older editions.

Though double checking, it does interfere with a surprising number of their spells because they are also concentration. But they can still go invisible, fly to the edge of their spell ranges/line of sight, then cast and move behind total cover (because they're fucking tiny), holding on to whatever 4th level bullshit they last cast as CR 1/4 creatures.


*well, not exactly correct on invisibility. Attack or cast a spell isn't anything besides move. Using a healing potion or other magic item, and class abilities don't end invis. It isn't a huge list of stuff, but it isn't quite as limited as you think


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shinimasu
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:

Nope. The invisibility spell does*. But pixies have a special snowflake superior invisibility which is limited only by concentration- it's closer to but better than greater invisibility, because it lacks a duration.


Well that's just ridiculous. Also yeah the 'literally anything' was hyperbole on my part. Basically just meant to convey "If you want to use another spell at any point in the combat, or actually hit something, it drops."


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Nope. The invisibility spell does*. But pixies have a special snowflake superior invisibility which is limited only by concentration- it's closer to but better than greater invisibility, because it lacks a duration.

Because special snowflake monster bullshit rules.

Natural invisibility was a thing in 3e too. In fact, the whole 'fae are bullshit' thing was a 3e rules failure; 5e just happened to repeat it. Creatures that die like low-level wizards when ambushed and hit like mid-level wizards at all other times are memorable and kind of interesting, but the CR system can't really handle them because they're so asymmetric that they aren't really in the level-based system.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's a pretty wild claim. The 3e CR system isn't perfect by any means, but it at least tries to take spells and spell like abilities into account. The 5e CR system doesn't, and largely only cares about hp and damage output. Which still leaves the stayer as fucking odd for Cr 1/2 critters with 31 hp.

But compare the two between editons-
A 3e satyr without pipes is CR2 with 9 fewer hp than the 1/2 CR 5e version, and does less damage (but has DR)

The 3e pixie has a lesser confusion and lacks polymorph, but is still CR 4 rather than 1/4 based on all the bullshit it can pull off.

Given that a group of 5e pixies can cause a TPK to a level appropriate party (which is level 1) just on throwing multiple confusion spells alone, 3e does a significantly better job of assessing the threat.


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Sir Aubergine
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
As for magic sword and magic shield (or 3 ever!)... uh, no. 5e has a shitload of magic items, and while attunement limits some things, it doesn't have any impact on basic +1 or +3 weapons or armor, [...]

I didn't know that "basic" magic weapons and armor don't count against the attunement limit. Such knowledge will never help any of my characters, but it's still good to know the actual rule.

Excellent breakdown on the Fighter vs. Pit Fiend match-up. I wasn't giving the Fighter a +3 weapon, which he surely has during that fight. I also forgot how easily you can "plate" your way into good AC. Good points.

I was already cognizant that "HP bloat" was a returning feature of 5E monsters, but I had no idea the degree to which lower CR monsters punch above their weight. Or that the strategy of sending hordes of supposedly weak critters at a party is not just viable, but highly effective.

Austere tone notwithstanding, thank you for improving my understanding of the mechanics you discussed. New Tongue Smilie
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Voss
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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I was already cognizant that "HP bloat" was a returning feature of 5E monsters, but I had no idea the degree to which lower CR monsters punch above their weight. Or that the strategy of sending hordes of supposedly weak critters at a party is not just viable, but highly effective.

If you really want heavy punching for CR, the NPCs in the back of the MM really break everything. Thugs and scouts and great for being utterly broken pieces of crap for CR 1/2 'monsters'

Thugs wander in with 32 hp, two melee attacks per round, and gain advantage from allies being with 5' of an enemy.
Scouts have half the HP, but can multiattack with longbows (ie, from off the battlemat).

Both are explicitly hirable for money (though how much and how many are left as an exercise for the DM to asspull).

The main reason for the bullshittery of low CR monsters appears to be the CR system in the DMG. Which basically looks and defensive output and offensive output and averages them together for a final rating. AC is largely static (starts at 13 and 'jumps' to 14 at CR 4, and caps at 19 at CR17). But the hp range for a CR1 monster is 71 to 85. Damage output for a CR1 monster is 9-14.

So the absurd multi attackers should be CR 1, but their hp puts them at a different CR, usually the 7-35 hp range, which is for CR1/8 critters. So they average the final CR: of the options, 9/8 divided by two is closest to... 1/2.
Above average AC or attack bonus only matters for every two points higher than the final CR would indicate.

So a 'valid' CR1/2 critter has an AC between 12 and 14, an attack bonus from 2 to 4, somewhere between 8 to 85 HP, and damage per round that can range from 2 to 14 (average not max). though damage and HP should be inverses of each other.

That's a CR 1/2 critter in 5e terms. What's particularly worrying there is damage is _average_, not max. So a monster making two greatsword attacks at level 1 is perfectly fine, even though it could fluke and explode two 1st level characters per round with max damage rolls (and/or crits)

Spells/spell like abilities that do more damage than their normal attack or increase their AC are the only things that have a direct impact on CR. Which is how the pixie manages to pass as a CR 1/4 creature- thought technically it actually has been adjusted- according to these rules, it should be CR0. Flight and invisibility adjust AC by 2 each. I guess that means CR should be adjusted as well, but that isn't actually clear.


short version: new or inexperienced DMs should never use this system. Their attempts will produce absolute bullshit, except by accident.
There is no attempt to explain what average damage will do to low level characters, and how many monsters can just turn into a TPK, even before you get to bullshit monsters like fucking hobgoblins. That they're capable of killing a PC each when working in pairs is actually the expected result from the 5e CR system
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Sir Aubergine
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Thugs wander in with 32 hp, two melee attacks per round, and gain advantage from allies being with 5' of an enemy.
Scouts have half the HP, but can multiattack with longbows (ie, from off the battlemat).

Wow. The CR 1 or less pool is lousy with piranhas! It's a wonder murder hobos exist at all when Joe Thug and his scout mates can wipe the floor with any rectitudinous men who dare to oppose them. Perhaps this CR system is a cruel joke from Mearls and now the players are the 0-th level losers. ROFL

You've obviously given the Monster Manual a thorough looking over, Voss. Thanks for sharing the horrors of the ankle-biters with everyone! Big Grin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sir Aubergine wrote:
Wow. The CR 1 or less pool is lousy with piranhas! It's a wonder murder hobos exist at all when Joe Thug and his scout mates can wipe the floor with any rectitudinous men who dare to oppose them. Perhaps this CR system is a cruel joke from Mearls and now the players are the 0-th level losers. ROFL

Recall that in 5e, the game isn't really supposed to begin until 3rd level. Anything below that is basically fragile babby territory.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sir Aubergine wrote:
Voss wrote:
Thugs wander in with 32 hp, two melee attacks per round, and gain advantage from allies being with 5' of an enemy.
Scouts have half the HP, but can multiattack with longbows (ie, from off the battlemat).

Wow. The CR 1 or less pool is lousy with piranhas! It's a wonder murder hobos exist at all when Joe Thug and his scout mates can wipe the floor with any rectitudinous men who dare to oppose them. Perhaps this CR system is a cruel joke from Mearls and now the players are the 0-th level losers. ROFL

You've obviously given the Monster Manual a thorough looking over, Voss. Thanks for sharing the horrors of the ankle-biters with everyone! Big Grin


More flipping through, and catching the standouts that I'd hate to face as a player. Recall that most PCs have 1 of 4 options at 1st level. Have a passable AC, and melee attack for 1d8+3, or have a lower AC and melee attack for 2d6+3 or ranged attack for 1d8+3. Or be a caster, have a crap to OK AC, and cantrip away for 1d8 or 1d10.

So for a level relevant encounter to be 2 shitheels that can soak the entire party's attacks and retaliate with attacks that can drop PCs really sucks ass.



@Mord- eh. I can't think of an edition where that wasn't true, except maybe 4th. 3rd-9th level is the consistent sweet spot.

It doesn't excuse the fractional CR critters for being way overamped, but 3rd had the same problem with accidentally murdering PCs at level 1, and 1st and 2nd editions were absurdly lethal to starting parties.

The big difference between 3e and 5e is 5e PCs have fewer tools and 5e monsters have more HP and extra bullshit. A 3e orc and 5e orc do an average of 9 damage (so are both quite capable of dropping a 1st level character), but the 5e orc has 15 HP rather than 5, and can move 30' as a bonus action, which makes them far more threatening. 5e orcs can go from the edge of (non-disadvantaged) longbow range to in your face and attacking in two turns.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I feel compelled to point out once again that Mearls had an entire article on how powerful monsters should have straight-up SoDs for dramatic tension (https://web.archive.org/web/20130509173749/http://wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120305).

Literally every complaint I have seen from people complaining about save or dies has been the villain getting one-shot or PCs going down like flies.

I am unclear why Mearls elected to solve only half of this problem, but not surprised given his previous work.

Seriously, compare the banshee or the medusa to the wizard list and the wizard list sucks.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mord wrote:
Recall that in 5e, the game isn't really supposed to begin until 3rd level. Anything below that is basically fragile babby territory.


4th.

As far as my personal experience goes, each monster CR is equal to 4 character levels. The only way I made my personal test flight with 4E palatable was houseruling 3.X' Flaws back in order to start the game with feats... and even so, my WSOD only lasted so long since the whole premise is a farce.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
I feel compelled to point out once again that Mearls had an entire article on how powerful monsters should have straight-up SoDs for dramatic tension (https://web.archive.org/web/20130509173749/http://wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120305).

Literally every complaint I have seen from people complaining about save or dies has been the villain getting one-shot or PCs going down like flies.

I am unclear why Mearls elected to solve only half of this problem, but not surprised given his previous work.

Seriously, compare the banshee or the medusa to the wizard list and the wizard list sucks.
Erm. Not sure about the segue, but the medusa is essentially an inconvenience. You just have to beat your way through 127 hit points with disadvantage on hit rolls.

They're exactly the opposite of any sort of dramatic tension or anything getting one shot or going down like flies.

A banshee is more concerning, but given the way dying actually works in 5e, it just emphasizes the importance of having healing word on tap. It does have the chance of TPK, which is unfortunate, but once past the wail the banshee is a 'whatever' encounter. Pretty shit design, but there is a huge host of monsters that are more common and more problematic.

Really, they demonstrate the other side of the flaw in the CR system. As combatants... they really suck. A pair of hobgoblins or thugs can out-damage the medusa, and the banshee has to swoop down and brawl or fuck off for a day.

Even at 6th level, you're better off with an assortment of humanoids or NPCs than a dogpile on the medusa fight. It's far more tactically interesting and might actually be a challenge.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Recent studies have shown that playing 5e causes extreme AIDS.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:

A banshee is more concerning, but given the way dying actually works in 5e, it just emphasizes the importance of having healing word on tap. It does have the chance of TPK, which is unfortunate, but once past the wail the banshee is a 'whatever' encounter. Pretty shit design, but there is a huge host of monsters that are more common and more problematic.


That's happened twice, once while my party was sleeping. Even in shifts with a lookout.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

... how?

I mean, yeah, the group can fluke the DC 13 save (because 5e saves are bullshit), but they're also shit at sneaking AND stuck to the place they died. What bizarre circumstances lead you to snoozing in a banshee haunted area?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

One encounter with a banshee was in the woods. Two of them ganked us while sleeping, one lookout (an elf). Most of us failed our saves and were on the brink of death immediately, which I said was bullshit and pissed off the DM.

The second was in an elf tree temple. We were in the middle of fighting black puddings and running out of spells when this banshee (by the book, DM was using an adventure guide) came out of nowhere and blasted half the party with the scream and we rolled badly.

I blame Mearls as usual.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
... how?

I mean, yeah, the group can fluke the DC 13 save (because 5e saves are bullshit), but they're also shit at sneaking AND stuck to the place they died. What bizarre circumstances lead you to snoozing in a banshee haunted area?
Stealth rules in DnD 5e are handwavy as hell and the "stuck to the place they died" is fluff that may or may not hold true depending on DM.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Cervantes wrote:
Voss wrote:
... how?

I mean, yeah, the group can fluke the DC 13 save (because 5e saves are bullshit), but they're also shit at sneaking AND stuck to the place they died. What bizarre circumstances lead you to snoozing in a banshee haunted area?
Stealth rules in DnD 5e are handwavy as hell

Well, yes they are- in the sense they're just skill checks. And passive wisdom (perception) is an explicit thing.

But since the banshee doesn't have stealth as a skill, it's just a straight dex roll at +2. Any cleric, druid or anyone with trained perception is likely to win here.

Quote:
and the "stuck to the place they died" is fluff that may or may not hold true depending on DM.

'Sorrow bound' has the same heading and format as 'Undead Nature,' which points out it doesn't require air, food, drink or sleep.

Sure, you can just say that undead require food and sleep because DM fiat, but it's pretty clear those bullet points aren't 'just fluff'


JonSetanta wrote:
I blame Mearls as usual.

Well, you obviously should. The 5e saving throw system is made of 'go fuck yourself.' You either need to be the right class (in this case, barbarian, fighter or sorcerer), or burn ability increases in favor of a feat (assuming you're at a point you can even do that). Otherwise it's a coin flip or worse, unless you put a lot of points into that particular stat.

It's really sad, but the 4e saving throws were better than this shit.


It's one of the reasons intellect devourers and mind flayers are even bigger fuck you monsters than previous editions- no one but wizards has any innate reason to put points in intelligence, which leaves the party entirely defenseless. There are maybe 3 or 4 other reasons an intelligence save will come up at all. Ever.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mike Mearls admits that 5e is just nostalgic wankery, and never aspired to be anything more.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is far too much gibber in there (needs a transcript rather than endless 'blah blah'). But I caught Mearls saying '5e fireball is intentionally too powerful in terms of damage.'

Which is horrifying bullshit. Horrifying if he actually believes that, and bullshit because at 5th level, the shit you're facing can have a 100+ HP, and fireball damage averages at 28 (8d6). Burning your highest level spell slot on tickling level appropriate opposition is just sad.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Don't post any more! Just leave it... like that. That's awesome.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stubbazubba wrote:
Mike Mearls admits that 5e is just nostalgic wankery, and never aspired to be anything more.

Overpowered fireball...hahahaha

Speaking of alignment, wouldn't that have been a great choice for the promised "modularity" aspect of 5E? Main rules have no alignment (or alignment only as fluff), and then give sub-rules for playing with alignment. Or vice-versa. Fucker.
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