D&D 5e has failed

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:59 am

MGuy wrote:Being an annoying idiot, in my experience, is not evidence that someone is not charismatic.

No, yeah, you're right - I was wrong and was conflating "likable" with "charismatic". I still stand by my point about the face-punching tho'

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:39 am

infected slut princess wrote:No one gives a fuck about 5e. Mike Mearls and his friends are all fucking losers. Mearls is probably still a virgin.

Whores arent that expensive.

But much more important, why is Google translating Nutten as housewifes?
Nutten = another word for whores...
https://translate.google.at/?hl=en&tab=wT#de/en/nutten

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:27 am

deaddmwalking wrote:Being at the business doesn't necessarily imply a minimum number of gours worked. And even if it did, say, 8 hours, some people might be able to do 3 of those (like by being undead)

The rules specificially says days spent working. Not hours. Days. Either you spent all the day on it or it does not count by the definition of day.

After all you are not simply an employee. You are the owner as well and that implies a lot of extra work.

And being an undead may mean you do not need to sleep or eat. But would also mean the living would be reluctant to do business with the walking corpse as much as a shop run by a demon. And it certainlly does not mean you can teleport instantly between jobs for perfect effeciency.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:35 pm

Korwin wrote:
infected slut princess wrote:No one gives a fuck about 5e. Mike Mearls and his friends are all fucking losers. Mearls is probably still a virgin.
Whores arent that expensive.

But much more important, why is Google translating Nutten as housewifes?
Nutten = another word for whores...
https://translate.google.at/?hl=en&tab=wT#de/en/nutten

So you can turn a ho into a housewife.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:38 pm

If the rules say 'days' and that means you spend every moment working then that's more herp-derp on top of the already stupid.

There are lots of business owners who are involved in day-to-day operations far more than I would be comfortable - the workaholic type - but I've also known people that aren't involved except relatively rarely. A good example is a family I knew that owned several franchised restaurants. Several members of the family were involved in minor ways, but with approximately 10 restaurants they didn't set foot in the business itself very often at all.

In any case, if an undead creature has to work 3x as many hours because they can, that's bizarre.

And if the shop has 'operating hours' there is no reason you couldn't have multiple operations either with or without overlap. I've been in stores that have a 'kiosk' that is separate from the regular store with specialty items. Or a retail store that includes a snack operation (ice cream counter). If those are considered separate businesses, it could be possible for one person to run both depending on the number of clients. And with spells like prestidigitation and unseen servant or an eidolon, it's possible to multiply your workforce without hiring additional headcount.

It's fail all the way down.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:22 pm

Except maglag's full of shit and hasn't read the rules in question:

5e PHB wrote:Between adventures, the DM might ask you what your character is doing during his or her downtime. Periods of downtime can vary in duration, but each downtime activity requires a certain number of days to complete before you gain any benefit, and at least 8 hours of each day must be spent on the downtime activity for the day to count. The days do not need to be consecutive. If you have more than the minimum amount of days to spend, you can keep doing the same thing for a longer period of time, or switch to a new downtime activity.

The fact that the 5e business rules fail to scale properly with initial investment does not imply that every other negative thing you can say about the 5e business rules is also true. Badness isn't a commutative property like that.

Hiram McDaniels · Post by **Hiram McDaniels** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:41 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:Simplicity in character design via baked in, long form ACFs. A universal spellcasting chart. A one buff per person paradigm. Something resembling differentiation between the full casters that isn't sucks more/less. No skill ranks, scaling proficiencies, reworked iteratives, free Spring Attack. Reworked Vancian Casting (everyone is a Sorcerer, prepared casters have far fewer spells to keep track of). System designed around not having magic items (sorta).

Okay, I see your point.

I guess I erroneously assumed that people who were looking for an improved 3E experience absolutely wanted the granularity of things like skill ranks and staggered iterative bonuses.

Incidentally, what is "ACF"?

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:45 pm

Alternate class feature.

Aspirinsmurf · Post by **Aspirinsmurf** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:04 pm

Regarding Mike Mearls' presumed lack of sexual exploits, perhaps you will find this little factoid illuminating: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/4 ... 0916392960

Not that it's a conversation we should be having.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:48 pm

Aspirinsmurf wrote:Regarding Mike Mearls' presumed lack of sexual exploits, perhaps you will find this little factoid illuminating: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/4 ... 0916392960

Not that it's a conversation we should be having.

Eh, congratulations to the local mailman and the expecting mother (actual mother, that was 2014). Join my headcanon, it's much better than reality and doesn't cost you any actually useful knowledge.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:49 pm

The whole virgin thing is childish. But this weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit is actually deeply troubling. When did the Den start being full of dishonest shills and willful liars?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:36 pm

Grek wrote:The whole virgin thing is childish. But this weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit is actually deeply troubling. When did the Den start being full of dishonest shills and willful liars?

Uh what? That one idiot who hates everyone on the dead called him a virgin because he's a dumbass, aside from that, how was anyone believeing everything terrible about Mike Mearls?

Spoiler alert if you think "The Den" did X because ISP did it, then why aren't you concerned about how "The Den" is a bunch of libertarian anarchist Trump supporters?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 11:56 pm

Wiseman wrote:Wow... Did they seriously fail to deliver on every single one of their promises?!

phlapjackage wrote:
MGuy wrote:Being an annoying idiot, in my experience, is not evidence that someone is not charismatic.
No, yeah, you're right - I was wrong and was conflating "likable" with "charismatic". I still stand by my point about the face-punching tho'

maglag wrote:The rules specificially says days spent working. Not hours. Days. Either you spent all the day on it or it does not count by the definition of day.

deaddmwalking wrote:It's fail all the way down.

rasmuswagner wrote:Eh, congratulations to the local mailman and the expecting mother (actual mother, that was 2014). Join my headcanon, it's much better than reality and doesn't cost you any actually useful knowledge.

Because none of this shit just happened, right?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:09 am

So a person asking a question, and people saying that a bad game designer is bad at game design (or that they wish he wasn't designing bad games) are someone assuming bad things?

I think the people criticizing Mike Mearls game design aren't doing it because they "tribalistically believe everything about 5E is bad" because you know, 4e and 5e are terrible.

Also, maglag cited incorrect rules or cited correct incomplete rules and drew a bad interpretation. Again, not sure that's ritualistically believing everything is bad, since I've done that myself with 3e rules plenty of times.

And deaddm began literally every paragraph with "If" followed by a statement about the rules. Again, he believed someone else's rule citation. Do you look up every single rules citation for SRD less games you don't play? Fuck no you don't.

Basically, you have decided to be mad that people credibly believed anything that ISP said, and you let that anger drive you to incredibly over the top uncharitable readings of everything in the thread. Sorry, I don't buy it, people congratulating Mike Mearls on his child does not count as "assuming everything about 5e is bad" for me.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:20 am

I agree with Grek that rasmus' stance (going out of their way to believe that Mearls is a virgin despite acknowledging evidence to the contrary and several people pointing out how thats not even an insult) is uncharitable, but the rest of those quotes seem entirely reasonable, if seasoned with den-style vitriol (e.g. face-punching).

Kaelik wrote:people congratulating Mike Mearls on his child

I think you just need to reread rasmuswagner's post there, Kaelik. But yeah otherwise I'm with you.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:53 am

momothefiddler wrote:I agree with Grek that rasmus' stance (going out of their way to believe that Mearls is a virgin despite acknowledging evidence to the contrary and several people pointing out how thats not even an insult) is uncharitable, but the rest of those quotes seem entirely reasonable, if seasoned with den-style vitriol (e.g. face-punching).

Kaelik wrote:people congratulating Mike Mearls on his child
I think you just need to reread rasmuswagner's post there, Kaelik. But yeah otherwise I'm with you.

You know what, I guess I was wrong. I just try so hard to live in a world where people aren't that stupid, that it didn't occur to me. I thought, for unconsciously charitable reasons, that he was saying Mike Mearls was a mailman, instead of a game designer.

I guess I must include Ramuswagner in the scope of dumb idiots along with ISP. But I still maintain my defense of other posters, and also point out the many people who jumped into defend Mearls, most of whom I associate more strongly with "The Den" than either Ramus or ISP.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:54 am

Kaelik wrote: I thought, for unconsciously charitable reasons, that he was saying Mike Mearls was a mailman, instead of a game designer.

Ooh. Huh. I guess it could parse that way, yeah. Fair enough.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:59 am

Grek wrote:The whole virgin thing is childish. But this weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit is actually deeply troubling. When did the Den start being full of dishonest shills and willful liars?

ISP: "HAHA VIRGIN HAHA"

Everyone else: "Please shut the fuck up. We still hate you and your insults are fucking terrible and stupid."

Grek: "Man, I can't believe you're all slandering Mike Mearls like a bunch of petty tribalist assholes. The Den has sunk so low."

Grek has made an interesting discovery: blind anti-tribalism is even more incoherent and stupid than blind tribalism.

Grek wrote:
rasmuswagner wrote:Eh, congratulations to the local mailman and the expecting mother (actual mother, that was 2014). Join my headcanon, it's much better than reality and doesn't cost you any actually useful knowledge.

Um, you realize the second half of that quote blatantly states in three different ways that the author knows it's not true (headcanon, better than reality, useful knowledge)? It is not a willful belief in a false statement. It is a tasteless insult whose premise is... stupid people shouldn't get laid (but they do), I guess? You are more than welcome to call it tasteless, but "The Den is kind of tasteless" wasn't your criticism, so that's one swing, one miss.

Grek wrote:
Wiseman wrote:Wow... Did they seriously fail to deliver on every single one of their promises?!

I'm pretty sure your only complaint here is "if I take wiseman's complaint literally, it's not true!" Yes, they promised a fifth edition of D&D. There turned out to be a fifth edition of D&D. That is at least one promise fulfilled, and probably even more than that if you look hard enough. But the actual fucking context of the criticism - which is that there are a bunch of modular subsystems they promised and absolutely did not deliver on to any meaningful degree - is fucking solid. You're... what, tone-trolling over hyperbole? Fuck off. Two swings, two misses.

Grek wrote:
phlapjackage wrote:
MGuy wrote:Being an annoying idiot, in my experience, is not evidence that someone is not charismatic.
No, yeah, you're right - I was wrong and was conflating "likable" with "charismatic". I still stand by my point about the face-punching tho'

Oh boo-hoo phlapjackage called Mike Mearls an unlikable, annoying idiot based on his conduct during a livestreamed D&D session. Spoiler: he really was an unlikable, annoying idiot during that livestream. But more importantly, this is just more tone-trolling over how mean we are to people. Three swings, three misses.

Grek wrote:
maglag wrote:The rules specificially says days spent working. Not hours. Days. Either you spent all the day on it or it does not count by the definition of day.

I have no idea if 5E specifies what it means by days in the context of the business rules. I'm also too lazy to care. But I would be perfectly willing to admit that maglag is an idiot; doing so would bring me no pain whatsoever. I'm not sure how to score this one. If maglag is right, then it's not a consensus in something false. If you're right and I just assume you're right because maglag is an idiot, then it's not a consensus in something false. Either way, that's four swings, four misses. Hurrah!

Grek wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:It's fail all the way down.

The post you are referring to is, by wordcount, 80% nothing at all to do with how many hours you must work per day, and instead mostly a criticism of measuring the business's success solely as a matter of days worked per month, and how absurd that can be - a separate criticism. The remaining 20%, which you are complaining about contain an "if," which means those statements are conditional on the truth of another statement without implying anything about the truth of that statement. English, motherfucker. Do you speak it? Five swings, five misses.

Really all you've got is that "ISP called Mike Mearls a virgin (and everyone yelled at him for it) and "Maglag is arguing that the business rules mean days, not hours (and no one has agreed with him)" and "Rasmus cracked a joke about Mearls' sex life that he knew wasn't true and said so" and "the Den is mean" and somehow all of that adds up to a willful consensus in unflattering untruths because...

...

Man, you're fucking whiny.

EDIT: You two do not have to grant Grek Rasmus. Rasmus straight up says it's not true three different ways in that very post. It's a joke of dubious taste, but absolutely not an example of the blind tribalist belief in unreality Grek has dreamed up.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:01 am

momothefiddler wrote:
Kaelik wrote: I thought, for unconsciously charitable reasons, that he was saying Mike Mearls was a mailman, instead of a game designer.
Ooh. Huh. I guess it could parse that way, yeah. Fair enough.

Based on the context of "cuckolded by the local mailman" being a trope, and the specific mailman mention (when if, as I thought, he was making a comment about game design, he could have picked any job), I think it is most probably true that your original reading is correct, though I'm willing to change my mind if Ramus shows up and says otherwise.

But I think Grek is right that at least one other person showed up and said idiotic things about Mike Mearls. But again, I don't think that it applies to any other of the posts he quoted.

EDIT: I suppose, that as DSM points out, Ramus was just making a stupid insult, not establishing a stupid belief. But I don't think the distinction is that meaningful. I mean, for how amazingly fucking dumb he is, just... on every level... surely ISP still doesn't actually believe that Mike Mearls is a virgin, he was just using possibly the dumbest insult that could possibly be conceived, surely not even ISP actually believed it? So by that metric, I still think Ramus is right up there with ISP in dumb stupid insults in this thread.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:34 am

It's kind of weird that I want to have the entirely stupid and pointless debate about the legitimacy of Grek's complaints with respect to ISP vs. Rasmus. It's kind of sad that it wouldn't even shit up the thread any worse than it already has been.

The claim being contested is not that "the whole virgin thing is childish." Of course it is - a bunch of "the Den" that Grek is complaining about beat him to that particular bunch by miles. The claim being contested is the existence of a "weird tribalistic [belief in] every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not," and when challenged on that claim he put forward a bunch of specific quotes which are absolutely not evidence of any such weird tribalistic belief. Whether or not there are criticisms that could be made of Rasmus is irrelevant to whether or not Grek scores a point for his specific criticism, which is that we are all lying liars who indulge in lies if they make people we don't like look bad.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:23 am

What I'm complaining about is that if you say something is wrong with the 5e rules on the Den, people will assume its true, regardless of what the rules actually say or who's saying it. It's fucking maglag. Why is anyone trusting anything he says without three sources and a professional audit? If you haven't actually read the rules in question, you don't get to talk about how they do or do not fail.

Incidentally, I'm a she, not a he.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:06 am

Nobody was entertaining maglag not being an imbecile except you, Grek. Deaddm's response to maglag being an imbecile had more conditional statements than Bill Clinton under oath in a brothel.

You're grasping at straws.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:36 am

DSMatticus wrote:Whether or not there are criticisms that could be made of Rasmus is irrelevant to whether or not Grek scores a point for his specific criticism, which is that we are all lying liars who indulge in lies if they make people we don't like look bad.

I mean, there certainly is some connection? rasmus literally expressed a desire to believe a shitty and also irrelevant claim about Mearls despite evidence or truth, and Grek criticized "weird tribalistic "I want to believe every 'bad' thing about 5e and Mike Mearls, truth or not" bullshit" - i.e. the desire to believe bad things about Mearls despite evidence or truth.

Whether that applies to the Den as a whole is a different matter, I suppose, but it doesn't seem too unreasonable to grant Grek the one.

Admittedly, I'm a bit lost as far as the tone of rasmus' post, since I imagine they weren't literally advocating for ignoring evidence, but I don't really know what, uh, what was being said there. So there is that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:31 am

Grek wrote:What I'm complaining about is that if you say something is wrong with the 5e rules on the Den, people will assume its true, regardless of what the rules actually say or who's saying it. It's fucking maglag. Why is anyone trusting anything he says without three sources and a professional audit? If you haven't actually read the rules in question, you don't get to talk about how they do or do not fail.

Incidentally, I'm a she, not a he.

Deaddm is literally the guy who constantly talks to shadzar and gives him the benefit of the doubt, an as said, he said "If" at the beginning of every single fucking thought.

I don't think you are in a position to complain about deaddm believing every bad thing about 5e.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:32 am

ISP: Mearls is an ugly virgin who can't write good rules. <insert specific claims about some 5e rules>
DDMW: Virgin isn't an insult.
Wiseman: Wow, Mearls really is terrible at writing rules.
Grek: Actually ISP's wrong about <insert specific claims about some 5e rules>
ISP: you're all sad lonely virgins and also everything I said is true.
The Den: Fuck off ISP.
ISP: VIIIIIIIRRRRGIIIINS
maglag: I think ISP's reading of the rules is right.
DDMW: If that's true, 5e must suck. Isn't it weird how 5e is so bad?
Grek: It isn't true. Here's what the rules actually say.
Asprin: Mearls has a kid, he can't be a virgin.
Rasmus: I prefer to pretend Mearls is a cuckold.
Grek: The virgin thing is dumb. Rasmus is dumb. Believing things maglag and ISP tell you about the rules for D&D editions you haven't read is dumb. Stop being dumb, Den.
Kaelik, DSM: I'M NOT DUMB!