D&D 5e has failed

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Post by Username17 »

K wrote:Focus on brand economics killed DnD, and thats a lesson we should learn.
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I think that's the takeaway, yes. If you ask yourself what the best use of your capitalization for immediate investment returns you're never going to come to the answer "hire fanboys right out of college who have a burning desire to write elf fanfics to make rules supplements and elf fanfics, some of which are going to be terrible." The "better" answer is always going to be "network with makers of phone apps or cheap plastic crap or something who are willing to license your brand logo to slap on things so they stand out on shelves (or virtual shelves, whatever)." And yet, if you always and forever choose the latter you don't have an RPG at all and you don't groom the next generation of writing talent so even if you ever suddenly realized that you needed to write an RPG you no longer have the skilled workers to make one.

It isn't just that WotC has spent the last 4 years not making content to make 5e in any way "complete," it's that they nowcan't. They don't have a template to make content into and don't have a writing staff that could write such a thing to order anyway. With no talent "in-house," when they finally realize that they need to write some actual D&D material they are going to have to shake down other companies to see what freelance RPG authors fall out.

And that method just doesn't have a great track record. I mean, you can get Steve Kenson, but you aren't getting his Shadowrun work, you aren't even getting his Blue Rose work, you're getting his fucking nMage work. The stuff where he just prattles on until he fills his allotted word count and then fucks off with his paycheck. The randos you poach to make an RPG aren't going to be on the same page as each other and will phone it in. At best you're going to get an RPG that is extremely bloated with text. But you might literally end up like Scion and not even have a core game mechanic or something equally disastrous. The people in charge don't know what the end product is supposed to look like on the micro-level so the chances of getting incomplete or unworkable drafts foisted off into the final product is extremely high.
K wrote:Frankly, any new DnD-killer needs to be written by an anti-capitalist. Content creation needs to be given back to the people through an open and clear set of rules that they can use to build adventures, settings, and game components like abilities and classes and monsters.
Something like that. The big problem right now is that I feel pretty strongly that the elf fanfic written by randos at the local gaming store has a better than even chance of being superior to Curse of Strahd or Rage of Demons. The premier adventures have never been all that great, and I don't think there's been anything people would think of as a premier adventure since... Red Hand of Doom? Yeah, I think it's literally been 12 years since someone wrote a D&D adventure that was above replacement level. I think Pathfinder has had a few in the intervening years, but for fuck's sake people who were playing Red Hand of Doom in highschool are now old enough to have kids who are old enough to play Red Hand of Doom.

Ideally, the owners of D&D would have some sort of system to get higher quality fan productions pushed to the forefront. Like perhaps a magazine, where random fans would send in contributions every month and every month you'd publish slightly cleaned up versions of the better submissions alongside commissioned art. You know, like Dragon Fucking Magazine was in the 80s and 90s. Better yet, you could do that as a web presence, where you produced glossy and edited content every fucking day because you had tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people sending you submissions.

I don't think this sort of thing is incompatible with making money in a capitalist fashion. They have shit like this for Magic the Gathering, and that makes crazy stacks of money. But a constant effort needs to be in place to farm writing talent and get creative output to your fans. Without that, you have nothing.

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Post by ScottS »

Since you commies brought it up:

I hadn't really thought about it since the original proposed version crashed and burned, but it looks like that D&D Beyond does currently exist; I just started looking at it now. I guess the salient facts are that a) it does include player-generated content with a like system (although it's just stuff you would find via web searches like huge lists of homebrew races, spells, and magic items), and b) nothing is actually for sale except for WOTC product, for the low low digital price of "exactly equal to Amazon hardback rates".

(Hopefully it's clear that my argument was more about DMing being a form of uncompensated labor, rather than anything more lofty about Wizards needing to hand over the means of production before the revolution tears them from their grasp etc. etc. But sure, WOTC should institute profit sharing to encourage the masses to create their own content, why the fuck not.)
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Post by jt »

Player-created content plus a reason to share it is a solid marketing strategy. It's how games from Minecraft (check out my lighthouse) to Magic (check out my merfolk list) get such huge fanbases. D&D almost has this - lots of DM-created content, but nobody cares about your D&D campaign.

Shared world-creation projects like the SCP wiki or the extended Homestuck fandom can get huge too though. If the new default campaign setting was some map/wiki where fans fill in the hexes and the staff makes the good stuff official, I could see that being a big deal. Bonus points if you can make a personal clone of the wiki, choose what hexes to scribble over with your own campaign notes, and easily upload those notes back as your suggestions for the wiki.

You might be able to pull off the same trick in parallel with fan-made character options.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Has D&D fanfic quantity dropped in the years?
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Post by Wiseman »

Dunno. I've only read my own.

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Post by RobbyPants »

jt wrote: Shared world-creation projects like the SCP wiki or the extended Homestuck fandom can get huge too though.
I forgot all about SCP wiki! I used to read the shit out of that six months ago. I was vaguely considering trying to create a campaign centered around that universe.
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Post by Username17 »

There are enough griefers and people whose campaigns simply contain dickwolves and Pygmies and shit that you would absolutely need to have the wiki be pre-emptively moderated. That is, people would submit their suggestions for edits and additions, and then they would be accepted if and only if they were meritous, in-genre, and also not offensive.

But basically I'm thinking an actual Earth-sized hex map, and you let people submit what their campaigns have in various places and you declare intellectual property ownership of everything that gets submitted and sometimes you make adventures based on peoples' at-home stuff and sometimes you send out free minis or books or something for people who send in the best stuff each week.

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Post by Thaluikhain »

FrankTrollman wrote:There are enough griefers and people whose campaigns simply contain dickwolves and Pygmies and shit that you would absolutely need to have the wiki be pre-emptively moderated. That is, people would submit their suggestions for edits and additions, and then they would be accepted if and only if they were meritous, in-genre, and also not offensive.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
FrankTrollman wrote:But basically I'm thinking an actual Earth-sized hex map, and you let people submit what their campaigns have in various places and you declare intellectual property ownership of everything that gets submitted and sometimes you make adventures based on peoples' at-home stuff and sometimes you send out free minis or books or something for people who send in the best stuff each week.
Oh, I like that idea (much better than my idea of just getting random celebrities to endorse or make up stuff).

To extend that idea, perhaps make it similar to Earth, and have fantasy counterpart cultures, but base them on submissions from people who actually live in the real world equivalents of those places?
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Post by jt »

If you're going for a something that big, I'd really like to see a setting be aware of different campaign styles and explicitly set up specific regions with different styles in mind.

So North Tet is for a West Marches campaign, with a home base surrounded by open-ended plot hooks for site-based adventures. Flavria is for an intrigue campaign, with details on all its bickering noble houses and merchant factions and what it takes to get something done. The Witchlands are roadless and sparsely inhabited for a hex crawl. The Principate has a dozen loosely intersecting evil schemes to thwart and another half dozen elder evils that could plausibly be behind them all for your lead-them-by-the-nose rollercoaster campaigns. There's a trade route that links the coolest city in each for an adventure of the week feel.

Once you have that set up, someone who wants to build a dungeon crawl would know to put it in North Tet or the Witchlands, and someone who wants to write up the internal politics of the blacksmith's guild would tie their stuff into Flavria.
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Post by Eikre »

Thaluikhain wrote:To extend that idea, perhaps make it similar to Earth, and have fantasy counterpart cultures, but base them on submissions from people who actually live in the real world equivalents of those places?
Sounds awful.

Very close to 0% of respondents are going to be from a pre-industrial society and will thus lack any personal authority to tell you about how those work, and (just taking a stab in the dark here) fewer than 5% of readers have any interest at all in hearing from another bullshit ill-considered magitek consumerist-urban highschool AU reflection of the society they already live in.

So either you're doing a weird virtue-signalling thing where you prioritize how modern day Coptic Christians feel about the culture that built the Pyramids, even though those guys previously forgot literally every single thing about that culture and can only tell you about the findings made by English graverobbing aristocrats, or you just want to bar me from writing about Steppe-dwelling horselords just because I live amidst the swamps and old-growth forest of the US East Coast.

Or, maybe it's a weird information organization scheme where you want huge geologically-congested, overdocumented analogues to every wealthy English-speaking urban center and an absolute dearth of information in the analogues to Burkina Faso and Pakistan.

Not seeing the upshot.
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Post by Iduno »

Thaluikhain wrote:To extend that idea, perhaps make it similar to Earth, and have fantasy counterpart cultures, but base them on submissions from people who actually live in the real world equivalents of those places?
Then you'll end up with areas hugely under-represented, or worse (and much more likely) people lying to add racist shit about <insert area here>.

Plus that thing Eikre said.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

On second thought, yeah.
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Post by TiaC »

So, a friend asked me to join a short 5e campaign this summer. Probably 2-6th level. I've never played 5e, what are some interesting builds at that level?
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Post by Koumei »

For that range of 5E, my favourite build is three measures of Midori, two measures of Polish vodka (the stuff that's around 70-80%), two of Lemoncillo, then top up with lemonade - preferably something like Solo that has more lemon flavour to it. Have three or four of these and you'll be right.
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Post by Username17 »

Koumei wrote:For that range of 5E, my favourite build is three measures of Midori, two measures of Polish vodka (the stuff that's around 70-80%), two of Lemoncillo, then top up with lemonade - preferably something like Solo that has more lemon flavour to it. Have three or four of these and you'll be right.
It's important to note that people in Europe and Australia mean "soda" when they say "lemonade," rather than American/Canadian lemonade which is lemon juice, sugar, and water. It usually specifically means clear soda with a citric acid base, like 7UP rather than a cola.

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Post by Whipstitch »

i just usually throw some el jimador into some grapefruit jarritos and drink until sloppy
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Post by Omegonthesane »

I don't think they sell 70+% vodka in UK supermarkets and I don't understand the signs in a Polish deli so can't buy it from there.

Clearly the solution is to learn Polish.
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Post by Korwin »

Omegonthesane wrote:I don't think they sell 70+% vodka in UK supermarkets and I don't understand the signs in a Polish deli so can't buy it from there.

Clearly the solution is to learn Polish.
Should'nt the Google app on your Smartphone be able to translate it?
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Post by Omegonthesane »

Korwin wrote:
Omegonthesane wrote:I don't think they sell 70+% vodka in UK supermarkets and I don't understand the signs in a Polish deli so can't buy it from there.

Clearly the solution is to learn Polish.
Should'nt the Google app on your Smartphone be able to translate it?
Way too much effort for a cocktail. 'Specially for me. 'Sides, Tesco sells the components of a Blind Russian and that'll do for me if I'm up to mixing drinks in the first place.
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Post by Username17 »

Omegonthesane wrote:I don't think they sell 70+% vodka in UK supermarkets and I don't understand the signs in a Polish deli so can't buy it from there.

Clearly the solution is to learn Polish.
"&#346;liwowica" It's almost the same in Polish as Czech. The stuff is actually made out of plums, but comes at 70% alcohol content. If it makes it easier, look for the "WOW" in the middle. Although in Polish, Ws are pronounced like Vs. So it's pronounced "Slee-Voe-Veet-Sah."

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Post by Koumei »

You could probably go American lemonade there actually, the juice would go really well there. Actually if you wanted to you could just squeeze pure lemon juice in and you'll be fine.

If you want to be fancy, cut a wheel of lemon and soak it in the vodka, then wedge it onto the glass. Then layer a small amount of vodka on top and set it on fire - you now basically have one of Cave Johnson's combustible lemons. That said, be warned, it will practically burn with an invisible flame and the glass will split from the heat difference pretty damn quickly.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

TiaC wrote:So, a friend asked me to join a short 5e campaign this summer. Probably 2-6th level. I've never played 5e, what are some interesting builds at that level?
So in seriousness, what are you trying to do?

Generally, characters aren't that interesting, so you could literally just throw darts and get your character concept. If you want to be effective, it's all about having minions - the more minions you have, the better you will be. Bounded accuracy requires that more attacks is always strictly better than more powerful attacks.
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Post by Chamomile »

I was gonna chip in earlier, but I didn't want to be the one to break the gag. It was glorious.

Now the spell's already broken, though: Minion swarms are pretty effective. The beastmaster Ranger actually kind of sucks, because having one or two extra attacks isn't worth trading in the pile of bonuses that the other Ranger archetype gets (I think they're called Hunters?). Minion mastery isn't on the table until level 5 and doesn't start to get seriously OP until you've built up a bevy of level 3+ spells, so by level 6 you'll be getting somewhere and by level 11 Necromancer bone lords hit peak insanity. After that level, the rate of new spell slots per level slows down, which allows the other classes to catch up a little, though make no mistake, Necromancer bone lords are still by far the most powerful build at level 20. The gap is smaller, but still vast.

You're not playing at level 11, though, you're playing level 2-6. At those levels, you will probably not do better than a dual-wielding paladin who holds all their spells in reserve for Smite Evil. Smite Evil adds a hefty 2d8 damage +1d8 for every level above 1st of the spell consumed to fuel it, +1d8 if the target happens to be a fiend or undead. As such, a dual-wielding smiter can bust out tons of damage against a single target by smiting twice, and can also split that damage in half between two enemies if they're fighting a horde. Paladins don't get a lot of spells, so you can run yourself out in two rounds if you put out maximum smiting power, but you'll also be dealing on the order of 40-50 damage per round while you do, a little more when you're using second level spells.

At fifth level, when the bone lord gets only eight minions, his DPR is either right in the middle of that range with 44 or slightly higher with 52, depending on whether your GM rules that skeletons are proficient with longbows or not, and lasts about the same number of rounds provided the enemy is capable of effectively clearing mooks with 13 HP and AC. At sixth level, the bone lord gets another four minions and starts giving out bonus HP and damage to his minions, causing him to shoot ahead of the paladin and firmly cement himself as the one true lord of the tiers, but by then the game will be nearly over.
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Post by TiaC »

deaddmwalking wrote:
TiaC wrote:So, a friend asked me to join a short 5e campaign this summer. Probably 2-6th level. I've never played 5e, what are some interesting builds at that level?
So in seriousness, what are you trying to do?

Generally, characters aren't that interesting, so you could literally just throw darts and get your character concept. If you want to be effective, it's all about having minions - the more minions you have, the better you will be. Bounded accuracy requires that more attacks is always strictly better than more powerful attacks.
So, I downloaded a bunch of books and looked them over. As Chamomile said, I think I'm too low level for minionmancy. I'd like to have some out of combat ability, so probably casting. (Or Ritual Caster, I guess) I also remember the talk about how AC is awesome at low levels, so I had thought of playing a Heavy Armor Cleric. I'd prefer not to optimize too heavily on offense, because I don't want to overshadow the others in an obvious way.
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Post by Ghremdal »

Light Cleric is a fairly strong at those levels, as its channel divinities are very level relevant. 2d10+lvl per short rest to enemies within 30' is very strong if your DM takes the route of multiple weak encounters, which you can always follow up with a firwball or burning hands. Its not flashy but its a real minion clearer which is where most of the damage to the party comes from.

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