5e - under or overpowered shit

[nockermensch]

I'll use this thread to go over the 5e PHB checking for options that don't seem to fit their levels.

Having weapon attacks if you're a primary spellcaster - Unless you're a cleric or other class that can consistently increase weapon attacks with spells, making these become useless at some level between 1 and 5. Elves and dwarves can use longbows or battleaxes at lvl 1 to make marginally better attacks than hitting with cantrips (but why the hell is a dwarf spellcaster getting into melee range?). But once the cantrips gain a second damage dice at lvl 5, there's no more reason to use your weapon. For most other caster builds, a cantrip seems to be a better attack right from level 1.

Heat Metal - No save for starters. If cast on weapon it effectively disarms a foe. If cast on armor it effectively means up to 20d8 damage spread over 10 rounds as your bonus action and the foe has disadvantage on all attacks and ability checks. Combine it with Elemental Adept (Fire) and keep throwing produced Flames with your normal action every round for extra fun.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Does simulacrum still let you copy yourself at your full caster level?

[Previn]

Does simulacrum still let you copy yourself at your full caster level?

Yes, though it does not recover spell slots and you can only have 1 at a time (others are destroyed on new castings) and cannot 'learn or become more powerful.'

[Rawbeard]

I assume it costs gold to create and gold is like the thing you don't know what to do with, so having "one use" copies of yourself for some extre pew pew isn't that bad a deal.

[K]

Planar Binding is now worse. It basically means that you capture enemy angels, elementals, demons, and fey because the spell now makes them slaves with unlimited services regardless of how you encounter them.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Is Magic Jar still "cast to target weakest save and have level appropriate attacks for an hour?"

[Koumei]

Is there even a bar of normalcy in 5E by which we can judge whether things are under or over powered?

[Rawbeard]

Magic Jar is a charisma save, works on humanoids only, but you have to be able to see the target, which I doubt you can do while outside of your body.

[nockermensch]

Is there even a bar of normalcy in 5E by which we can judge whether things are under or over powered?

There will be a new "normalcy", supposing this edition doesn't implode in endless errata hell (something I consider "likely enough"). Once the DMG is out we'll be able to figure how well decked in magic items a usual party will be and once the MM ships we'll figure if this game actually works.

Right now I was trying to see how multi-class characters work and it seems most combinations are traps. You'll lose one of your rare feats/ability increases if you dip between 2-3 levels in any class, but 1 level dips seem to work: monk 1 / druid 19 or cleric 1 / wizard 19 seem to be a nice way to add variety without falling more than one level behind.

Also, backgrounds: I expect to see tons of house-ruled backgrounds to spring into play, since the book explicitly tells you to work with the DM to get something appropriate to "your concept". Same thing with the specializations every class get. I get the feel that kits are back and are mandatory this time.

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Teleportation Circle and Guards and Wards become permanent if the spellcaster casts them each day in the same place during an entire year. Wall of stone is a combat spell to create temporary structures in one action but becomes permanent if you keep concentrating on it for 10 minutes. The text of move earth is confusing, but it seems to imply that you create permanent landscape changes after concentrating on a place for 10 minutes too. I like that. It helps to explain how magical places are created. Now, I'd still want to know how people create magical items.

[Occluded Sun]

Now, I'd still want to know how people create magical items.

Channeling the magical energy that creatures a particular effect through an item, over and over and over?

It'd sort of be the reverse of the 'Move Earth' effect - instead of a magical effect becoming mundane with enough time, a mundane object becomes magical after sufficient exposure to arcane energies.

[nockermensch]

Something that's pretty different on 5e: Tripping is available to every character as a very low risk attack option. This seems to be the entire rule about it:

Shoving a Creature
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one
size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the
target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics)
check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win
the contest, you either knock the target prone or push
it 5 feet away from you.

This doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity or cause counter-trips but standing up afterwards also doesn't provoke AoOs, just eating half of the creature's movement for that round instead. Actually, it seems AoOs are restricted to just punishing creatures leaving one of your threatened squares now.

[OgreBattle]

Is there even a bar of normalcy in 5E by which we can judge whether things are under or over powered?

The Fighter and the Blaster Wizard

[nockermensch]

Is there even a bar of normalcy in 5E by which we can judge whether things are under or over powered?

The Fighter and the Blaster Wizard

Which fighter again? Champion is looking stronger than the Battle Master (the maneuvers are shit and you're restricted to like 4-6 of them between short rests), and both look weaker than an Eldritch Knight.

[Insomniac]

I don't think Magic Users are meant to use mundane weapon. Cantrips and Potent Cantrip can leave somebody doing 3d10+Caster Modifier damage with cantrips, which should be something in the neighborhood of 8 at the lowest or 35 at the best for around 22 points of damage. That is like rolling max damage on a 2d6 weapon and having 10 additional damage on it.

Underpowered? Casting things above their level. You should NEVER be throwing away mid to high level spell slots for something as lame as like another die of damage.

[Deathfork]

Does simulacrum still let you copy yourself at your full caster level?

Yes, though it does not recover spell slots and you can only have 1 at a time (others are destroyed on new castings) and cannot 'learn or become more powerful.'

I don't see anything that prevents the simulacrum from making it's own simulacrum.

[Deathfork]

Which fighter again? Champion is looking stronger than the Battle Master (the maneuvers are shit and you're restricted to like 4-6 of them between short rests), and both look weaker than an Eldritch Knight.

Maneuvers allow you to break the RNG by adding dice to attack rolls. That's not weak. Also, he can add the die to damage which makes up for any gains the champion has in crit range.

[Ghremdal]

The biggest wreck so far is the necromancer with animate dead.

It starts off at level 5, with 8 skeletons each with 18 hp, +4 to hit and 1d6+5 damage with shortbows. Right then and there that is probably enough damage for 2 party members. And you still have level 1 and 2 spells.

IT goes up to level 20 where he can have 144 of the skeletal friends, which is enough to kill 2 CR 16 dragons per round, and still have damage to spare!

[Dogbert]

It starts off at level 5, with 8 skeletons each with 18 hp, +4 to hit and 1d6+5 damage with shortbows.

I'm reading the PHB and, unless my reading skills suck right now, you can only create one skeleton per casting unless you use a higher-leveled slot (to a max of 13 skeletons for a level 9 slot).

[Wiseman]

Can you add the skeletons up over multiple castings?

[Dogbert]

Can you add the skeletons up over multiple castings?

Yes you can, but regardless of numbers, all creations become free-willed after 24 hours unless you re-cast.

[nockermensch]

It starts off at level 5, with 8 skeletons each with 18 hp, +4 to hit and 1d6+5 damage with shortbows.

I'm reading the PHB and, unless my reading skills suck right now, you can only create one skeleton per casting unless you use a higher-leveled slot (to a max of 13 skeletons for a level 9 slot).

At level 5 a necromancer has 2 lvl 3 slots and can use Arcane Recovery to get one of these back during the day. Each casting of animate dead used to reassert control over animated undead targets 4 creatures. So the deal is:
day 1: three spells to animate three undeads
day 2: one spell to reassert control over three undeads, animate two more.
day 3: two spells to reassert control over five undead, animate one more
day 4: two spells to reassert control over six undead, animate one more
day 5: two spells to reassert control over seven undead, animate one more
day 6: two spells to reassert control over eight undead, GO TO TOWN.

Things get much better by lvl 6, because the animating efficiency doubles (necromancer power) and undeads you animate start getting more hit points and damage. Sadly there's no word if Undead Thralls also doubles how many skellies you can reassert control over with each casting but even at the most restrictive reading the game right now allows enterprising 6th level necromancers to enter a cemetery and exit it two days after behind 12 controlled skeletons. So yeah, pretty brutal.

[Dean]

You don't need to wait 2 days. You can cast Animate Dead 4 times, long rest for 8 hours, then immediately cast it again. With 8 hours (and ten minutes) notice you could cast Animate Dead 8 times and walk into town with 16 Skeletons. Sure you'll lose control of them by tomorrow but who cares? Destroy a town and if any of your Skeletons have survived just command them to stand there while you kill them and, by 5E's XP rules, they will even give you XP. Once the former Skeletons have been reduced to piles of bones they are now legal targets for more Animate Dead castings. It's the circle of unlife.

I actually think the winning move for a Necromancer would be to walk into town with 14 Skeletons and keep a Vampiric Touch spell loaded. Vampiric Touch gives you a 3d6 Necrotic damage melee attack for a whole minute that heals you for half of what you hit for and anytime you kill someone with it you regenerate 9 hp. A 6th level Human Necromancer could have 57hp and regenerate ~5hp per attack with a 9hp boost each kill which is amazing regeneration especially when he's wading into melee with his OTHER contribution of 14 Longsword attacks each round for 1d8+3 damage apiece.

[Ghremdal]

A necromancer can do it faster (and with stronger skeletons), but ultimately its 4 skeletons per lvl 3 slot, or 4+(x-3)*2 per spell slot, where x>=3. Undead thralls doesn't let you control more then other casters.

So its pretty trivial for any caster that can cast animate dead to get a bunch of skeletons. In fact there is no reason not to. Even 10 skeletons is a significant contribution to the party (and at level 20, 13 necromancer skeleton archers is enough to do a greatsword champion fighter level DPS). Which is one lvl 5 slot and one lvl 4 slot, and you get a skeleton left over.

So yeah things are pretty broken straight out the gate.

You can do some shenanigans with planar binding as well, thought that requires two casters. But if you have them, you basically have infinite elementals bound to you for a infinite amount of time.

[Dogbert]

I assume it costs gold to create and gold is like the thing you don't know what to do with, so having "one use" copies of yourself for some extre pew pew isn't that bad a deal.

Sadly, the casting time is measured in hours, so it's nothing you can just resort to in a pinch. More trouble than it's worth unless you're laying an ambush for someone.

[Ferret]

You can do some shenanigans with planar binding as well, thought that requires two casters. But if you have them, you basically have infinite elementals bound to you for a infinite amount of time.

Esplain?


(side note: I remember in basic and 1e running around with a cadre of fighting dogs or mercenaries. Since there's nothing for a PC to use gold for, I might just insitute a gold cost for Animate Dead and encourage the melee types to hire mercs and rogues.)