Interesting classes based around marking/shrouds/observing

[OgreBattle]

So the D&D3e Assassin stares at someone for a full round then gets a death attack. The 4e Assassin lays shrouds once per round and consumes them for effects (like damage) . The 4e Ranger also stick 'hunter's quarry' on things to get bonus effects or trigger abilities, as do the various defender classes (ex: Swordmage marks people by hitting them, can teleport people marked by them).

The 4e Assassin focused itself entirely around marking but it was a big fat failure 'cause waiting four turns to build up all your marks onto one guy that may have already gotten killed by a party member is unreliable. What would it take to make a class that revolves around placing marks/shrounds not end in failure?

[Laertes]

I've been told that the 4e Warlock's marking was quite fun. I have no personal evidence to support this assertion in any way, though.

[spongeknight]

Obvious answer: don't make marking take up real actions. You could make them swift actions, or happen automatically as riders on other actions, or have the marks themselves do something worthwhile when applied. The 4e fighter placed marks automatically whenever it attacked anything, which was pretty cool, and the paladin issued marks as swift actions every round. The marks of those classes were largely useless, sure, but the method of delivery on both of them was pretty solid.

[RobbyPants]

Obvious answer: don't make marking take up real actions. You could make them swift actions, or happen automatically as riders on other actions, or have the marks themselves do something worthwhile when applied. The 4e fighter placed marks automatically whenever it attacked anything, which was pretty cool, and the paladin issued marks as swift actions every round. The marks of those classes were largely useless, sure, but the method of delivery on both of them was pretty solid.

In addition, you could make it so you mark people while doing useful, but not necessarily offensive things.

So, an assassin might be able to go invisible/create darkness/hide in plain sight and mark a target at the same time. He could then strike from cover the next round for extra damage/rider effects.

For an offensive mark, the assassin could mark someone while hitting them with a minor, poisoned attack. He could mark them when hitting them with a [fear] effect.

The whole thing could really be a way to build up combos, where you're still contributing during the process or to incentivize ambush and hit-and-run tactics.

[Zaranthan]

While I hate to link a 4e comparison to an MMO comparison, the World of Warcraft Rogue's Combo Point system worked beautifully.

You've got setup moves and finishing moves, and the important bit is that the setup moves are worthwhile attacks in their own right. You've got the standard Sinister Strike that does a bunch of damage and adds a point, if you can flank a guy you get to use Backstab to do a bunch more damage and add two points, and if you've got points on a guy you can use Eviscerate for a shitton of damage. At higher levels, you get more variety in setups (Garotte deals good damage, and lays a DoT, AND adds points) and finishers (Slice and Dice eats your points to grant you a haste buff instead of just doing a butt-ton of overkill damage to something that's going to die to a regular attack anyway).

What doesn't port over is the Energy system, as that's just not going to work in a turn-based setup with humans doing the bookkeeping, but I'd say it'd work better with a "Catch" system. Each move other than SS requires certain circumstances to use (Backstab only works if you're flanking, finishers only work if you have combo points on the target already, etc), but are otherwise usable at-will. Worst case, give them an ability that lays combo points with any attack, so standard attacks, charges, and AoOs are all playing into the class features.

[malak]

Obvious answer: don't make marking take up real actions. You could make them swift actions, or happen automatically as riders on other actions, or have the marks themselves do something worthwhile when applied. The 4e fighter placed marks automatically whenever it attacked anything, which was pretty cool, and the paladin issued marks as swift actions every round. The marks of those classes were largely useless, sure, but the method of delivery on both of them was pretty solid.

The only useful way to do marking is something like the Bo9S Crusader: everyone threatened. As soon as you have to spend time for setting the marks or remember who is marked, they become a hindrance.

[zeruslord]

The length and structure of combat is also a big issue . A two round fight means your target has maybe one round spent marked before he keels over, so it's not meaningfully different from a one-round debuff. The typical encounter should last something like four to six rounds if you want these kinds of effects to be distinct and interesting