Underground Isolate Society (Occluded Sun stay out)

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angelfromanotherpin
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Underground Isolate Society (Occluded Sun stay out)

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

So, thinking about doing a thing inspired by Fallout and Earthdawn; people holing up underground to escape the fantasy apocalypse, then re-emerging to explore and so forth – probably going to make a hexcrawl of it. My concept is that the PCs are the first people to step out into the world through the big doors marked do-not-open-ever, because the underground doesn't have a self-sustaining ecosystem and the stockpiles are running out. Early quests will be for food more than treasure.

I want the PCs to be coming from a very ignorant perspective: they don't know anyone who has ever seen the sky, and record-keeping is poor, so all they have is whatever oral tradition has survived the decades. As a result, I would like to put together a fairly detailed workup of the subterranean living experience to establish what's been normal, and I'm looking for any thoughts people would like to add. I would also like to include as little magic as possible. My starting physical reference is the Derinkuyu Underground City.

For instance, the people probably suffer from a vitamin D deficiency due to lack of sunlight; they get some from cultivated fungus and from fishing the underground river which serves as water source and sewer, enough to get by. But when they finally do get sunlight, it's going to make them feel great.

I think that fire/light is probably a pretty limited resource because fuel is hard to come by – so it's individual candle-flames, not rows of torches. I imagine a fair amount of dried human dung is burned.

I had a few ideas that flowed together – the first is that since honey can last more or less indefinitely, that would be a good thing for to stockpile for a low-tech unknown-duration holing-up. The second is that the same properties that keep honey from going bad make it an excellent preservative, and a lot of the supplies could have been slathered with honey to make it keep better. The third was that the reason record-keeping has been poor could be because their culture mostly wrote on wax tablets, so writing had a relatively short lifespan. Fourth: lots of honey and lots of wax means they probably kept a lot of bees when they lived on the surface.

That's more or less what I have at the moment.
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

But when they finally do get sunlight, it's going to make them feel great.
More realistically, its going to make them feel hot, worried, dazzle-blinded and frightened. Partly based on the psychological unfamiliarity and partly due to physical response. It is certainly healthier, but more than likely they're completely ignorant of that fact. I've done long stints of time doing night-shifts and generally not getting a lot of sun exposure. My body's reaction to sunlight wasn't 'this is awesome' but 'Damn, this hot. Start sweating, bitch.'


I'd be fairly surprised if someone hasn't done a study on psychological and physiological reactions to this sort of thing for miners, night shift workers and the like. I'd suggest tracking some down and seeing how they shake out.
Last edited by Voss on Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Google suggests that one effect might be persistent SAD due to lack of sun-serotonin. Would that be a society of depressives, or would they just normalize at a lower level and have daylight make them euphoric?
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Post by momothefiddler »

Something that occurs to me is that your potential for expansion will be low (cave) to none (Vaults), especially if you're completely cut off from the surface. This could easily lead to rigid population control, which could have some fun social ramifications.
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Post by Laertes »

This looks like a badass project.

The Cappadocian underground cities are awesome, but those would only have been used for hiding from comparatively brief raids. They didn't have the large storage facilities required to make it through an apocalyptic event, and had wells connecting them to the surface for ventilation. It's unlikely that people would have remained down there for very long, and they would have known what was going on on the surface because their wells were open to the sky.

I assume this isn't the case for your cities, therefore they're going to need truly immense storage facilities. As the stores ran out, the empty storerooms would have been terrifying places - pitch dark and used as cesspits or tombs, with all of humanity's primal fears emerging to fill the darkness. The wax tablets may well have been used up to make more candles when the current ones burned up, leading to a very symbolic burning of their histories and knowledge in order to be able to survive the present day.

The most terrifying thing in that situation is disease. All those people cramped up in one place near their own excrement and dead, with no sunlight and limited fresh food and water, would mean that outbreaks of disease would be frequent and potentially deadly. Quarantine would be the only real chance they'd have to survive it, and quarantine needs to be early and ruthless to work. As such, I can see them developing Old Testamental style cleanliness taboos, to the point of executing or entombing everyone who was exposed.

If survivors were down there for generations, then population would be a big issue: specifically, with only very limited supplies, they would keep very tight laws on who was allowed to reproduce and when. There's no reason to suppose that this wouldn't be a corrupt and tyrannical process: I can easily see strongman rulers keeping Mormon-style harems, with all the long-term genetic problems that that would bring.

I can also see boredom being a big issue. They can't mine (due to having nowhere to put the spoil), they can't farm, and fucking would create too many kids. As a result I can easily see them developing ritualistic behaviours to occupy their time, which would also be an OCD-ish way of coping with the stress of living cooped up with so many other humans in the darkness. These sorts of rituals could make emerging difficult - when you've been told that the most important thing for you to do is to turn the Temple Hamster Wheel for sixteen hours a day, then you may well carry on believing this to be true even when you have things like farm and cut timber to do instead.

Because I'm a horror roleplayer at heart, I can easily see this as a nightmarish process of social degeneration and hunger, ending up with necrophagy, cannibalism, civil war, disease used as a weapon, and other disgusting things; culminating in the last few survivors deciding that whatever's outside the doors can't possibly be as bad as what's down here, and deciding to brave it, only to discover that the surface is actually a habitable wilderness once more. You may decide on a more optimistic story.

Either way, when they reemerge they're going to need to learn a lot of skills very quickly.

How long do you see them as having been hiding for? Secondary forest - that is, pine-dominated recovery forests of the sort that would take over fields and towns - take two or three decades to establish a forest canopy, and perhaps ten times that long to reestablish a climax forest, depending on your exact ecology. Wooden buildings might last a similar few decades to disappear entirely, depending on how well treated the timber was. Stone, of course, lasts much longer.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Laertes wrote:How long do you see them as having been hiding for?
Enough for the infants of the original dwellers to die of old age, and the PCs to grow to maturity never having known anyone who had seen the sky. So, say ~70+~20=~90 years.
I assume this isn't the case for your cities, therefore they're going to need truly immense storage facilities.
The internet tells me that a person could survive for two years on food that would fit in a 5' cube (although they wouldn't enjoy it). Say they're working on a less efficient/minimal model and 2 years' food takes up a 10' cube, then 100 person-years of food is 5000 cubic feet, which is a pretty sizable room.

I think the original population is going to have been pretty small, only a few hundred people. If they planned to support an average of 500 people for 100 years, that's 2.5 million cf of storage needed. That much would make it between the seventh and eighth largest buildings in the modern world, which I think does qualify as truly immense, especially by low-tech standards.

edit: oops, those are cubic meters. The space involved is much more modest than I thought.
As the stores ran out, the empty storerooms would have been terrifying places - pitch dark and used as cesspits or tombs, with all of humanity's primal fears emerging to fill the darkness.
I do like the idea that the PCs underground lifestyle has prepared them for dungeon-delving antics – hunting around for secret doors to hidden store-rooms, picking locks for which the keys were lost years ago, etc.
The wax tablets may well have been used up to make more candles when the current ones burned up, leading to a very symbolic burning of their histories and knowledge in order to be able to survive the present day.
Very cool.
Because I'm a horror roleplayer at heart, I can easily see this as a nightmarish process of social degeneration and hunger, ending up with necrophagy, cannibalism, civil war, disease used as a weapon, and other disgusting things; culminating in the last few survivors deciding that whatever's outside the doors can't possibly be as bad as what's down here, and deciding to brave it, only to discover that the surface is actually a habitable wilderness once more. You may decide on a more optimistic story.
Yeah, I don't actually want the society to be a collapsing dystopian nightmare; the game is definitely going to have horror elements, but I want the society to be a reasonably supportive one that the PCs can invest in the future of. A lot of your ideas are good, and I'll probably use most of them in some moderate form. Maybe one more extreme one to emphasize the weirdness of the place.
I can also see boredom being a big issue. They can't mine (due to having nowhere to put the spoil), they can't farm, and fucking would create too many kids. As a result I can easily see them developing ritualistic behaviours to occupy their time, which would also be an OCD-ish way of coping with the stress of living cooped up with so many other humans in the darkness.
I think there could be quite a lot of art getting made, especially auditory art. Music and storytelling and such. But yeah, coming up with what folk do is a real thinker for me, since a lot of the usual low-tech professions are simply inapplicable.
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Laertes »

angelfromanotherpin wrote: Enough for the infants of the original dwellers to die of old age, and the PCs to grow to maturity never having known anyone who had seen the sky. So, say ~70+~20=~90 years.
Cool. Then you'll see recovery forests pretty much everywhere where the soil and water allow trees to grow, with some bits of climax forest reemerging in places. Wetlands that had been drained and turned into fields would have reverted once again to wetlands, and rivers would have escaped their dredged channels and be flooding their way merrily across the countryside.

The rule of thumb for animal population recovery is as follows: take the average age at which they have children and halve it. That is the time it takes for the population to double, until they hit the carrying capacity of their range (which is given by factors like food, disease and climate.) Therefore over the course of ninety years pretty much every animal species which survived is going to have reached its maximum population once more.
The internet tells me that a person could survive for two years on food that would fit in a 5' cube (although they wouldn't enjoy it). Say they're working on a less efficient/minimal model and 2 years' food takes up a 10' cube, then 100 person-years of food is 5000 cubic feet, which is a pretty sizable room.

I think the original population is going to have been pretty small, only a few hundred people. If they planned to support an average of 500 people for 100 years, that's 2.5 million cf of storage needed. That much would make it between the seventh and eighth largest buildings in the modern world, which I think does qualify as truly immense, especially by low-tech standards.

edit: oops, those are cubic meters. The space involved is much more modest than I thought.
Your logic is good but your numbers are slightly off. A 10' cube is 10' on each of three sides, meaning that it's 1,000 cubic feet (which is roughly 30 cubic metres) per two years of food. 100 person-years of food is therefore 100 x 1,000 / 2 = 50,000 cubic feet or 1500 cubic metres. For 200 people (an average Dunbar's number) that makes it 10,000,000 cubic feet or 300,000 cubic metres.

Realistically no culture is going to build something that big just for 200 people to survive. As such, it's more likely that it's some other construction which was repurposed and enlarged into a shelter. This is also a nice way of giving it some narrative - if, for example, it was originally a quarry (like the oldest parts of the Paris Catacombs were) or a prison (like some of Moscow's metro stations were expanded from) then that gives the shelter some history and some clues as to the culture of the people who built it.

If the survivors enlarged it a little while they were down there, using now-emptied storerooms as spoil dumps, then you'd have three distinct styles of architecture, which would give the whole thing a very cool vibe and make it feel like a living building.

Alternatively, the whole thing could have been built in a large limestone cave, in which case the underground river is easily explained and there's lots of space. Unfortunately caves are frequent victims of cave-ins and floods, both of which may have served to suddenly make portions of the complex temporarily or permanently uninhabitable.
I do like the idea that the PCs underground lifestyle has prepared them for dungeon-delving antics – hunting around for secret doors to hidden store-rooms, picking locks for which the keys were lost years ago, etc.
It may also have given them a more survival-oriented, cold-bloodedly murderhobo outlook on life. Which is nice because it's what your players will do anyway, so you might as well try to justify it in-character.
Yeah, I don't actually want the society to be a collapsing dystopian nightmare; the game is definitely going to have horror elements, but I want the society to be a reasonably supportive one that the PCs can invest in the future of. A lot of your ideas are good, and I'll probably use most of them in some moderate form. Maybe one more extreme one to emphasize the weirdness of the place.
You could always do what Fallout 3 did and have the PCs happen upon other vaults where things turned out less nicely.
I think there could be quite a lot of art getting made, especially auditory art. Music and storytelling and such. But yeah, coming up with what folk do is a real thinker for me, since a lot of the usual low-tech professions are simply inapplicable.
Art is something I can see them making a lot of. As you point out, it would mostly be the auditory stuff, since they don't have a lot of tools or raw materials.

Thinking about it more, I can easily see religion as being an immense part of their lives. They need strict taboos, unbelievably tight social cohesion, OCDish behaviour rituals, heavy use of art and storytelling, and a way of mythologising their own past to make it bearable and to explain the unknown. These are all things that religion provides.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

momothefiddler wrote:Something that occurs to me is that your potential for expansion will be low (cave) to none (Vaults), especially if you're completely cut off from the surface. This could easily lead to rigid population control, which could have some fun social ramifications.
My thought is that while the previous culture understood rationing, they didn't really understand population growth very well, and went in without any plan for it. Basically the first thing that happened was a pop boom followed by a crash of some sort, probably a micro-war. That would support the creation of strict population controls, and probably help to maintain the martial traditions in the absence of an external threat – no-one wants to be unprepared if another tunnel-war breaks out.
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Post by Laertes »

My thought is that while the previous culture understood rationing, they didn't really understand population growth very well, and went in without any plan for it. Basically the first thing that happened was a pop boom followed by a crash of some sort, probably a micro-war. That would support the creation of strict population controls, and probably help to maintain the martial traditions in the absence of an external threat – no-one wants to be unprepared if another tunnel-war breaks out.
I would have seen it more as a series of small rebellions against the authorities, almost a generational cycle of violence. Every 20ish years you'll have another generation of young, angry people who grew up in the oppressive, stinking darkness and don't see why that old guy should be telling them how much they can eat and/or fuck. Cue bloodshed on a fairly predictable cycle.

Every so often they might win, in which case it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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Post by Username17 »

Since it's fantasy, the inside of the vault doesn't have to be a cave or a basement. It could be on the other side of a magical portal and be fucking anywhere. It could a rock island floating in the sea of Limbo or a dimenional pocket of a hell world.

If you don't want to explain how they dug out all that space, you simply don't have to. They could have built their hideaway on the other side of dimensional portals to micro-climates that have exactly the dimensions you say they have.

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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Laertes wrote:Every so often they might win, in which case it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Unfortunately, I think if the 'fuck all I want' crowd ever wins, the colony doesn't make it. Unless that happened fairly recently and is the cause of the food pressure that forces opening the door.
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Post by Laertes »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Laertes wrote:Every so often they might win, in which case it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Unfortunately, I think if the 'fuck all I want' crowd ever wins, the colony doesn't make it. Unless that happened fairly recently and is the cause of the food pressure that forces opening the door.
It depends how dystopian you like things. I love me my dystopias, so I can easily see a situation where the "fuck all you like" revolutionaries turn into the "I can fuck all I like, but the previous government's population controls will continue to be applied to everyone else" junta. Cue even more violence.

Thinking about it, if there's no work to be done and everyone is just here to keep the population alive until the doors can be opened once more, then there's no actual reason for people to live past sexual maturity. The population could be comprised entirely of children who have kids of their own at sixteen, pass down a little knowledge and then kill one another, and it would function perfectly well. Possibly better, in fact.

This might be a good way to explain the rapid PC levelling effect: you're a teenager. If you start as a fifteen year old, then the next five or ten years of your life are going to see you become vastly stronger, smarter and more knowledgeable anyway.
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Post by erik »

It does not have to be all stored food. Got yer fish, crawfish, bugs, worms, mushrooms. You are going to be generating serious human waste so put that to use growing stuff or making turd burgers. (I would find and link the guy in japan who made burgers from poo but on the phone typing). Recycling things is likely to be a big deal.

One of the industries is probably going to be digging new tunnels moving rock to old spent out places and delving deeper/farther otherwise you have no new raw resources. Even if those new resources are just carved stone and smelted ore.

If you have an underground lake then you could use tides as a calendar/time marker. With some discrepancy vs the other various time keepers naturally.
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Post by TiaC »

Use a natural cave and have the river connected to a lake with hot springs. This creates a basis for a large ecosystem, more so if the river is on the surface earlier in its path and brings sediment to the cave. Tending the cave snails then gives them something to do. With the right organization, you could have rival villages around different springs. Another possible pressure for them to leave would be that they dumped mining spoil to be carried downriver, but recently managed to clog it.
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Post by Laertes »

Hot springs mean extrusive igneous rock, so no natural caves. Sadly you don't find the two in the same place unless you've got a truly interesting geology going on.

Also natural caves with rivers flowing through them tend to flood during heavy rains. Be warned that even if this doesn't kill everyone, it'll wreck the supplies.
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Post by TiaC »

Laertes wrote:Hot springs mean extrusive igneous rock, so no natural caves. Sadly you don't find the two in the same place unless you've got a truly interesting geology going on.

Also natural caves with rivers flowing through them tend to flood during heavy rains. Be warned that even if this doesn't kill everyone, it'll wreck the supplies.
Put the river down a 100-foot staircase from the living spaces? Another source of heat could be a natural nuclear fission reactor.
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Post by Laertes »

TiaC wrote:Put the river down a 100-foot staircase from the living spaces? Another source of heat could be a natural nuclear fission reactor.
Those are really cool. I didn't know about that but it's awesome. Thanks for that link.

Let's just think about space for a moment.

We need 10^7 cubic feet of storage. If we assume that it'd be in lots of relatively smaller rooms rather than a few vast halls (to make it easier for a primitive civilisation to dig out) then we can call it a thousand long rectangular 100'x10'x10' chambers. However, that's merely the amount of space that needs to be filled entirely with honey and other long-lasting supplies. We'll need aisles between the shelves, and corridors and places to actually sleep. Let's call that an extra fifty percent as much space again, meaning that we need 1500 such chambers.

In other words, a hundred foot staircase between a river and the living quarters would be a really minor thing: there would be distances far greater than that within the complex.

Hmmm. 1500 chambers for 200 people means that the problem isn't going to be being cramped in with loads of other people: the problem is going to be finding another human being to talk to. An average of 7.5 chambers per person is misleading, because due to light and other constraints it's more likely that they would all gather in one area of the complex and abandon areas as they burned through the supplies in them, turning them into tombs and waste dumps. However, if you really just wanted to run off into the darkness and be by yourself, you totally could.

I think angelfromanotherpin hit the nail on the head: dungeoneering is going to be second nature to these people. It's literally where they live.
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Post by kzt »

If someone actually put in that much food (why - this would have cost an actual fortune?) they would have put in things like lots and lots of Coleman lanterns and oodles of fuel and mantles.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

It's a primitive culture, so I doubt they have access to a device released in the early 20th century.

As to why, for the same reason as in Earthdawn and Fallout: they had advance warning that everyone left on the surface was going to die.

But you do bring up a good point, which is that they would need stockpiles of more than just food. Cloth strikes me as the most obvious, but other stuff as well.

As to fuel, I have some thoughts about fire. They would probably have to be very careful about how much smoke they produced, right? This is one reason I thought about dried dung – it supposedly produces very little smoke.

Regarding hot springs and radioactive heat; considering the insulation involved, might that be more of a hazard than a help? It'd be nice to know if that would just cook everyone...
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Post by kzt »

Ok, I missed the primative part. So no nuke war.

Then what motivated the original group to decide to hide out for a decade or ten, and is it still outside?

Also, if you are dealing with a primitive economy, funding and equipping this place would have required thousands of people investing their life savings for years and year. If they are supposed to carve out a thousand rooms it's even more.
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Post by TiaC »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Regarding hot springs and radioactive heat; considering the insulation involved, might that be more of a hazard than a help? It'd be nice to know if that would just cook everyone...
The river would be a massive heatsink. The goal I had was to allow food to be grown underground. This avoids the issue of how they stocked the place.


As to using honey as a preservative, be aware that it doesn't work on larger objects.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

kzt wrote:Then what motivated the original group to decide to hide out for a decade or ten, and is it still outside?

Also, if you are dealing with a primitive economy, funding and equipping this place would have required thousands of people investing their life savings for years and year. If they are supposed to carve out a thousand rooms it's even more.
Oh yeah, it's a vast investment; compare it to the great pyramid of Giza, which is 88 million cf: a lot more stone quarried and moved, and then it also had a lot of wealth stashed in it. But the sheer volume of supplies needed for this undercity probably makes it a comparable endeavor.

At the end I assume the high nobility got the shelter, and everyone else got the shaft.

As to the nature of the disaster, I'm not sure. Probably a combination of hostile environment and horrible monsters in great quantity. It'll be mostly gone, but with enough residue left to make things survivable but hazardous.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

TiaC wrote:As to using honey as a preservative, be aware that it doesn't work on larger objects.
Why not? And what counts as 'larger?'
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Post by kzt »

Canning is actually not that hard to do, but it did take until the 1700s before people figured it out. So it isn't obvious and requires manufactured containers.

But preserving food for decades is really hard, particularly without things like gamma ray chambers. Even with them I would have my doubts.
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Post by TiaC »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
TiaC wrote:As to using honey as a preservative, be aware that it doesn't work on larger objects.
Why not? And what counts as 'larger?'
Because it will only penetrate so far into the object. You would probably be fine as long as you don't try it with a whole pig or the like. It can also ferment if it gets wet, and caves are pretty humid, so you would need good seals.

If the river only spent a short time underground, there could be fish in it. If there were salt deposits, they could preserve the fish for some time.
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