The Rise and Fall of Gygax at TSR

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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun »

codeGlaze wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:Keep it entirely in private hands.
It was.
You are correct; I was mistaken.

The lesson isn't keeping it private, but making sure that you don't sell or give out more than 50% ownership. And if you do sign away potentially controlling interest, you'd better remember that you're the servant of the people to whom you've given the power to kick you out.
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Post by Almaz »

Did you even like, read the fucking article? Gygax had controlling interest until Blume exercised his option. He had no particular reason to believe he had lost control of the company until he did. I have no special love for Gygax, but it would take a very skillful and much more business-aware person to do better than him, not some random fuck on an RPG board. While he's touted as the head of the game, and for a time he was, he had to make it work as a partnership, which means he pretty much had to do what eventually resulted in his downfall.

By the point that Gygax's controlling interest was in danger, it wasn't Gygax signing away 51% ownership, it was TSR Hobbies.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Almaz wrote:Did you even like, read the fucking article? Gygax had controlling interest until Blume exercised his option.
And that option was a complete surprise to Gygax because it wasn't in any kind of agreement and simply appeared out of nowhere!

How could he have known that he'd given Blume the ability to claim a certain number of shares? That'd be like knowing what a contract you're signing says or remembering the pattern of freckles on the back of your hand or something.
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Post by erik »

Occluded Sun wrote:That'd be like knowing [] or remembering the pattern of freckles on the back of your hand or something.
Full disclosure. I don't remember what the pattern of freckles on the back of my hand is like. I just checked and I was like "oh". In 20 50 years when I get liver spots it'll be even more confusing.

[amended age estimate because of this and raw optimism]
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Fair enough. How about recognizing the pattern of moles and freckles and skin creases on the back of the hand? That's a nicely impossible thing that compares well with the ludicrous feat of remembering who has how many shares.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Post by Voss »

Occluded Sun wrote:Fair enough. How about recognizing the pattern of moles and freckles and skin creases on the back of the hand? That's a nicely impossible thing that compares well with the ludicrous feat of remembering who has how many shares.
Your reading comprehension needs a fuckton of work. There were a limited number of shares divided up on an _even more_ limited number of stock certificates, split between a very small number of people. And the Blumes had tried to sell their shares (to EGG or the company) at least twice in the lead up to the stock meeting. First refusal was in the existing agreement they had. Gygax (and then TSR) declined. And they said 'OK, our legal requirements have been met. Hey, rich girl!'

If you have controlling interest by a thin margin, you damn well better know who has shares. Even if you have to write it up on a list for the back of your door, titled 'People Who Can Screw Me.'
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Post by Chamomile »

Prak_Anima wrote:A few more and we can make own Captain Marvel
What can we spell with Shadzar, Elennsar, and Roy? Ser, so maybe if Occluded Sun manages to cement himself in the group we can make it Sero. Does Psychic Robot count?
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Post by DSMatticus »

With all five you'd be able to spell PROSE.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Voss wrote:If you have controlling interest by a thin margin, you damn well better know who has shares. Even if you have to write it up on a list for the back of your door, titled 'People Who Can Screw Me.'
If you're finished vigorously agreeing with me, perhaps you can give me some of your nifty reading comprehension tips.
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Post by Voss »

Occluded Sun wrote:
Voss wrote:If you have controlling interest by a thin margin, you damn well better know who has shares. Even if you have to write it up on a list for the back of your door, titled 'People Who Can Screw Me.'
If you're finished vigorously agreeing with me, perhaps you can give me some of your nifty reading comprehension tips.
you wrote:That's a nicely impossible thing that compares well with the ludicrous feat of remembering who has how many shares.
you wrote:How could he have known that he'd given Blume the ability to claim a certain number of shares? That'd be like knowing what a contract you're signing says or remembering the pattern of freckles on the back of your hand or something.
Why the fuck would I agree with you? You're a moron and can't keep track of your own argument.

Saying it is an impossible task is distinctly not like saying it is an obvious necessity.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun »

You also have a vast and profound grasp of irony, sarcasm, and various other literary techniques. I'll bet you did fantastically in English class, yesno?
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Post by OgreBattle »

"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
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Post by codeGlaze »

OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
:rofl:
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Post by Voss »

Occluded Sun wrote:You also have a vast and profound grasp of irony, sarcasm, and various other literary techniques. I'll bet you did fantastically in English class, yesno?
I did, actually.

But then I'm not the one trying to suddenly reverse position and claim 'irony' that corresponds perfectly with my own earlier, incorrect arguments.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
I'm sorry, I had to sig that.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
I actually thought Shadzar was almost reasonable before the racist rant that got him banned (racist rant not included in said analysis).
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Voss wrote:But then I'm not the one trying to suddenly reverse position and claim 'irony' that corresponds perfectly with my own earlier, incorrect arguments.
No, it was pretty clear that he was being sarcastic.
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Post by Mord »

OS is right that a business owner should keep track of the shares that are floating out there. OS is dead wrong in his unstated assumption that Gygax was ever in a position to exercise unilateral control over share options or issues. As the article made explicitly clear, by the time Gygax held the controlling interest in TSR, the fatal options had already been issued and the bank had an active role in governance. The bank would have surely prevented Gary from issuing himself shares to redress the imbalance between himself and the Blume/Williams/etc bloc.

Gygax's fall wasn't rooted in the shares, it was a failure of relationship management.
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Post by Voss »

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:
Voss wrote:But then I'm not the one trying to suddenly reverse position and claim 'irony' that corresponds perfectly with my own earlier, incorrect arguments.
No, it was pretty clear that he was being sarcastic.
After money from nothing and magic bank loans, I wasn't willing to extend any credit.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Voss wrote:
Desdan_Mervolam wrote:
Voss wrote:But then I'm not the one trying to suddenly reverse position and claim 'irony' that corresponds perfectly with my own earlier, incorrect arguments.
No, it was pretty clear that he was being sarcastic.
After money from nothing and magic bank loans, I wasn't willing to extend any credit.
Bankrupt organizations aren't in any kind of shape to extend credit.

***

In all seriousness, the lesson of the article seems to be that if you don't have experience managing a corporate entity, you're not likely going to be able to hold on to one for long. Gygax might have been wiser to grow his company more slowly and more modestly; perhaps it would still be around in that case.
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Post by norms29 »

Voss wrote:
Occluded Sun wrote:
Voss wrote:If you have controlling interest by a thin margin, you damn well better know who has shares. Even if you have to write it up on a list for the back of your door, titled 'People Who Can Screw Me.'
If you're finished vigorously agreeing with me, perhaps you can give me some of your nifty reading comprehension tips.
you wrote:That's a nicely impossible thing that compares well with the ludicrous feat of remembering who has how many shares.
you wrote:How could he have known that he'd given Blume the ability to claim a certain number of shares? That'd be like knowing what a contract you're signing says or remembering the pattern of freckles on the back of your hand or something.
Why the fuck would I agree with you? You're a moron and can't keep track of your own argument.

Saying it is an impossible task is distinctly not like saying it is an obvious necessity.
Voss, are you ok? like, did you have a stroke and forget what sarcasm is?

he called the task impossible, on the order of remembering what the back of your hand looks like this is not a comparison a person makes if he actually a believes the task to be impossible. Hell, his other example was reading a document before signing I.E. a thing which is not only possible, but expected and you're judged too dumb to deserve sympathy if you fail to perform.
After all, when you climb Mt. Kon Foo Sing to fight Grand Master Hung Lo and prove that your "Squirrel Chases the Jam-Coated Tiger" style is better than his "Dead Cockroach Flails Legs" style, you unleash a bunch of your SCtJCT moves, not wait for him to launch DCFL attacks and then just sit there and parry all day. And you certainly don't, having been kicked about, then say "Well you served me shitty tea before our battle" and go home.
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Post by mlangsdorf »

Occluded Sun wrote:
In all seriousness, the lesson of the article seems to be that if you don't have experience managing a corporate entity, you're not likely going to be able to hold on to one for long. Gygax might have been wiser to grow his company more slowly and more modestly; perhaps it would still be around in that case.
He didn't have a company to grow until he got $3000 in Kaye and Blume money, so that doesn't seem useful.

Also, since TSR was the first mover in a new field growing out of an established field, if he hadn't grown his company quickly, he'd have been swamped and destroyed by someone else. GDW, Metagaming, SPI, SJ Games, ADB, Avalon-Hill, and a half dozen other companies could have relegated a slowly growing TSR to a footnote in the history of gaming if TSR hadn't gone big, quickly.
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