The Good Side of Nurgle

[Chamomile]

It's starting to bug me that there's /tg/ over there filled to bursting with people who'd be way more interested in hearing me talk about 40k stuff than you guys, but if I actually bring it up the thread is basically guaranteed to devolve into me fighting with some idiot fanboys who can't tell that certain parts of the fluff are horribly, abominably bad and should be ignored.

Anyways, I'm really starting to get keen on the interpretation of the Chaos Gods where they're actually perfectly benign, double-sided entities who've been driven completely insane by the messed up state of the galaxy. Like how Khaine has a mark of Khorne literally bolted to the top of his head and yet he is still perfectly reasonable because he hasn't been driven insane the way Bloodthirsters have.

It's easy to see how this works out: Khorne represents martial virtues, including the prowess to kill your opponents, yes, but also honesty and straightforwardness (best expressed in his spite for magic, long-ranged battle, and the like) and I've even heard mercy attributed to him, and though I haven't run into a source on that I've got like five and a half editions of unread fluff before I even get through all the mainline stuff so I'll take your word for it. So taken to an extreme, Khorne is so zealously opposed to machiavellian alliances that he doesn't care from whom the blood flows, only that it flows, so spiteful towards using magic that he demands wizards be killed on sight, so enraptured with honorable combat that he demands his followers charge headfirst into combat. Tzeentch represents brilliance and craftiness, and he's the opposite of Khorne, and in fact he balances out Khorne in a lot of ways. If you embrace both Khorne and Tzeentch, that means you embrace honesty, but not to the extent that you won't trick or ambush your enemies, and you embrace straightforwardness, but not so much that you'll forego useful battle tactics because they're unorthodox or otherwise unexpected, and you possess and respect martial prowess, but not so much that you're unwilling to use diplomacy or economics or other tools in Tzeentch's box when the situation calls for it.

Now Slaanesh fulfills a similar role to these first two in that he is, more clearly than anyone else, a straightforwardly good thing taken to unhealthy extremes. I won't even bother explaining that one because it's obvious to anyone who even knows who Slaanesh is. But the problem is: It's really hard to see how Nurgle balances Slaanesh even if it's easy to see how Nurgle opposes Slaanesh. Slaanesh is like a positive thing that breaks the number cap and wraps around to negatives like an oldschool RPG, but Nurgle is just a negative thing. There's not, like, a good amount of disease to have, nor does worshiping disease help you to balance out a desire for cakes and blowjobs. In fact, Nurgle's plague schtick is pretty much just the consequence of the extremity of Slaanesh, rather than a balancing factor. You want to moderate your Tzeentchiness because that's the only way to take advantage of the gifts of Khorne like honesty and straightforward hard power, but you want to moderate Slaanesh so that you can have as little to do with Nurgle as possible.

Is there another perspective on Nurgle that makes him more like a guy you'd want to have around, just not too much?

[Blade]

Nurgle could be micro-biodiversity, like how you need tons of microbes and bacterias to be healthy. Extreme Nurgle is welcoming also stuff that are bad for you and getting disease so that you can host even more tiny friends in your body.

So moderate Nurgle would be to take care of your internal bio-diversity, and generally speaking, health. It would balance Slaanesh, because even if that cake looks good, too much sugar will kill some of your friendly bacterias.

The obvious problem is that while martial virtues, craftiness and pleasure are good generic concepts, micro-biodiversity doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Laertes]

Firstly: I am vastly more interested in hearing you rant about 40k than I am in seeing yet another D&D thread. Rant away: even if nobody else enjoys it, I will.

Secondly, Nurgle. Nurgle has always been the happy, goofy, clownish one of the Chaos Gods. His daemons have always been drawn with smiles. They're never sad. Hounds of Nurgle are really just big slobbery dogs that want to lick you all over because they love you so much. Khorne and Tzeentch take themselves so seriously, but Nurgle? Nurgle's a party and everyone is invited. Nurgle himself has the attitude of a diseased Santa Claus: he has all this great stuff and he wants to share it with you. You may think of them as diseases, but to him they're gifts and blessings he's giving to all the good little girls and boys. Nurgle never withholds his blessings either: Khorne may desert you if you behave unchivalrously and Tzeentch cannot be trusted, but Nurgle doesn't hold back from anyone.

As such, I would say the distinction between Slaanesh and Nurgle is that of the distinction between individual and community. Slaanesh is all about satisfying your own desires in a solipsistic way, but Nurgle is all about sharing. Slaanesh worshippers might kill you because they want to experience the rush, whereas Nurgle worshippers will give you this lovely plague for free. See how nice they are? They're happy and they want you to be happy too.

[OgreBattle]

Nurgle is the will to endure. Nurgle opposes 'endings' but to an extreme it becomes stagnation.
Tzeentch is the thirst to always expand one's knowledge. Tzeentch opposes 'stagnation' but to an extreme it becomes confusion.

Khorne is the passion to fight for what you believe in. Khorne opposes 'lies' but to an extreme it causes conflict.
Slaanesh is the charisma to lead. Slaanesh opposes 'conflict/dissent' but to an extreme it's deceiving others.


Tzeentch vs Nurgle and Slaanesh vs Khorne are the most common rivalry setups I believe, so you don't have to worry about how much sense Nurgle vs Slaanesh is suppose to make.

[Koumei]

Originally it was Tzeench vs Khorne (magic vs manly combat without trickery) and Slaanesh vs Nurgle (to strive towards a perfection you can never achieve, obsessing over it, vs giving into despair and rotting in stagnation).

Then they decided "Change vs Don't Change" and "Fight vs Fuck" would be more interesting.

[fectin]

Nurgle is hippy-style life and death. Think swamp thing.

[Koumei]

Honestly, I can't help but feel that they were originally meant to be linked to the four horsemen*, then changed enough so that they could stamp "Original character, do not steal" on it. Khorne = war = War. Nurgle = plague = Pestilence/Plague/Famine (they're all the same one traditionally, only modern versions split that into two). Tzeench = change = death? And Slaanesh = "that miscellaneous fourth one nobody remembers" ("victory of good over evil", no wonder everyone drops it in favour of splitting famine/pestilence).

*the Biblical things, not Rick Flair's faction

[Stahlseele]

Nurgle?
Grand-Papy Nurgle?
The jolly old Uncle?
If he wasn't that festering heap of decay, he'd be pretty much Jolly Man Santa Claus o.O
Nurgle is all about family, he does not discriminate, he takes all into his arms and he cares about all of his people equally.

You get wounded in battle and it starts to go bad . . he welcomes you..
You get down and dirty with somebody of your choice and it starts to go bad . . . he welcomes you..
You get cursed with a wound that will not heal . . . he welcomes you..
You get stupid and do something stupid and become sick because of your attempt to do something stupid to change something stupid into something stupid . . . he welcomes you.. (no, i had nothing for tzentch <.<)

Heck, in a twisted kind of way, he is the only Chaos God that actually found love in the form of that one Eldar goddess . . whom he now keeps in a cage by his side and tries out his new diseases on.

And technically, he should be the oldest and strongest of the chaos gods as well. Certainly older than Khorne, because sickness has been claiming victims even before and without violence . . And change does not neccessarely but sometimes also cause sickness . . as does the sexing, but slaanesh only came into existence when the space sluts overdid it with each other.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I've seen Slaanesh also described as representing perfection taken to great extremes as well. A martial artist or dancer or craftsman that strives towards perfection in their art at the expense of everything else is also pleasing to Slaanesh (but let's be honest, blowjobs, cake, and hot futa demons are more compelling than that so that's what most people focus on).

[Stahlseele]

Yes, most people. That other Stuff is for Noise Mehreens.

[Ancient History]

In the Liber Chaotica it does actually talk about which emotions each Chaos god actually represents, and I think Nurgle ended up being Hope or something like that.

[Stahlseele]

Because, ironically, Nurgle turns your Body into that of Mr.Burns.

[Username17]

Originally it was Tzeench vs Khorne (magic vs manly combat without trickery) and Slaanesh vs Nurgle (to strive towards a perfection you can never achieve, obsessing over it, vs giving into despair and rotting in stagnation).

Then they decided "Change vs Don't Change" and "Fight vs Fuck" would be more interesting.

This would make way more sense, but the actual reason is because the Chaos gods were introduced in two books, and each chaos god is at war with the other chaos god in the book he stars in. So Khorne, the god who hates magic and has no sorcerers, doesn't fight the god of magic because he's from a different book. Nurgle, the god of decay opposes the god of magic because he's from the same book.

The primary Chaos god conflicts don't make any sense because they are based on book release schedules rather than any minimally coherent narrative.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Nurgle
Whattaguy!

[hyzmarca]

There's not, like, a good amount of disease to have,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiotic_bacteria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_microbiome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora


Oh, there totally is. There are plenty of microorganisms in your body that are totally symbiotic so long as they stay in their own house and don't move somewhere else. Like all of your intestinal bacteria that help you digest food. They're awesome, so long as you don't get feces anywhere it shouldn't be like an idiot. Then they get lost and try to live where they most certainly don't belong.

Nurgle's thing is unconditional platonic and parental love, acceptance, and symbiosis. He loves even the tinest and deadliest bacteria. It doesn't matter who you are or what you are, Papa Nurgle will embrace you with open arms.
In addition, his followers tend to be carriers for his gifts, and are often extremely symptomatic to the point of being horribly disfigured by all the microorganisms they carry, but they don't die from it. They even get benefits, sometimes.

On the other hand, Slaanesh represents insatiable lust and possessive erotic love.

[Dean]

I think good Nurgle should be nature, that seems to make a clean sort of sense. Nice Nurgle is all about trees and bunnies and bad Nurgle is all into fungus and bacteria.

I don't think you should make the 4 opposed like some bullshit philosophical version of the pokemon elemental chart. Just have them be 4 entities that care about different things. Don't find a way wherin Combat is opposed to Planning and Improvement is opposed to Nature. Just have the Gods care about different things and have them like you if you care about their thing too.

[OgreBattle]

I think good Nurgle should be nature, that seems to make a clean sort of sense. Nice Nurgle is all about trees and bunnies and bad Nurgle is all into fungus and bacteria.

There's a Tzeentch champion that was into trees and bunnies, everywhere he walks causes flowers to grow and he gives regeneration to anyone (friend or foe) in base to base contact with him. In Warhammer lore they consider natural growth as part of Tzeentch's portfolio, while Nurgle is about things slowly decomposing, but nothing flowers from there.

They're really quite similar so if you made up your own 4 gods you could just roll decay/rebirth into one.

[Stahlseele]

Well, Bacteria and the such grow quite good on decomposing matter
Well, technically matter decomposes because of bacteria i guess . .

[deaddmwalking]

I'm not familiar with the lore around Nurgle, but I have played Warhammer 40k and fought Chaos armies. That said, there is a place for 'disease'.

As a society, we work hard to minimize exposure to infectious disease. If a disease begins to spread, we attempt to quarantine the infected and minimize the spread. If a disease is severe enough, the infected may die. It's not possible to completely prevent exposure - the laws of iterative probability insure that it will happen.

The best defense against disease is a strong immune system, and the only way to develop that immune system is to expose it to diseases (and survive).

If you consider the Western European encounters with Native American peoples, you can see how long-term exposure to disease can benefit a people. Lots of Europeans were killed by disease - but they were small numbers annually over a very long time (for the most part). When the Native Americans who had avoided exposure were introduced to European diseases all at once with no resistance - their losses were apocalyptic.

If Nurgle's philosophy doesn't already include it, it could be flavored as a realist. When you release the butterfly from the spider's web, you condemn the spider to starvation. In Nurgle's view, the bravest of people accept the diseases into themselves to create a race that can survive the impending apocalypse as people encounter hitherto unknown diseases that might wipe out entire sectors of the galaxy. Refusual to accept that infection will happen is cowardly avoidance - and if taken to an extreme, will doom everyone. Actually elimintating bacteria and viruses is impossible - too many of them are beneficial, and even beneficial ones may mutate in destructive ways.

[Stahlseele]

Mr.Burns.
Your diseases reach an equilibrium.
And your Immune-System gets stronger and stronger trying to fight them.

[Occluded Sun]

Slaanesh is to the mind what Nurgle is to the body.

In their hypothetical uncorrupted forms, Nurgle would be associated with hope, vitality, fertility, and healing. Slaanesh would be associated with intellect, knowledge, artistic expression, and memory.

They would not be opposites in most senses, but Nurgle would be more concerned with physicality and the concrete, biological aspects of living while Slaanesh focused more on mentality and the abstract, psychological aspects. They don't oppose as much as complement each other.

In their corrupted forms... well. Again, in some ways they're alike more than they're different. But Nurgle is more about literal pestilence while Slaanesh is about conceptual decay.

[Nath]

I'd try establishing some link between the four Gods of Chaos and the four classical elements, borrowing from astrology.

- Khorne is Fire : active and brave. Color is red. In astrology, the associated signs are Aries (horns), Leo (claws, fangs), and Sagittarius (the only sign carrying a weapon, albeit a bow).
- Slaanesh is Water : emotive and sensitive. Color is blue - actually purple in Warhammer. Associated astrological signs are Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces (which evocate claws and scales).
- Tzeentch is Air : intellectual and reflective. Color is white or yellow - instead of blue in WH, but usually associated with yellow. Its signs are Gemini, Libra and Aquarius, which symbolize advanced concepts of duality, balance and knowledge, and relate to interaction with others, instead of oneself.
- Nurgle is Earth : patient and enduring. Color is green or brown. Its signs, Taurus, Virgo and Capricorn, are associated with basic needs, agriculture and food.[/list]

Each of the god carries destruction in a way that relate to its nature : Khorne destroys through action, Slaanesh through emotions, desires or pain, Tzeentch through thinking and science, and Nurgle through patience and the force of life.

The classical opposition Fire-Water and Air-Earth would be the editorial choice FrankTrollman mentioned above. But the astrological oppositions match the ones we're used to: Aries is opposite of Libra, Taurus is opposite of Scorpio, and so on..

And the Emperor is obviously Captain Planet.

[Dean]

Booooooo, voodoo on everything Nath said. Do the opposite of that. Everything does the opposed elementals chart and it is always retarded. Look at how August Derleth ruined the Lovecraft mythos by doing it. Giant evil universe shaping gods are made vastly less cool when they are tied to earth only concepts like Air and the Libra constellation.

[Laertes]

Booooooo, voodoo on everything Nath said. Do the opposite of that. Everything does the opposed elementals chart and it is always retarded. Look at how August Derleth ruined the Lovecraft mythos by doing it. Giant evil universe shaping gods are made vastly less cool when they are tied to earth only concepts like Air and the Libra constellation.

I liked John Tynes's interpretation of that: that it's not objectively true, but rather is the desperate attempt of humans to make sense of the unknowable cosmic horror of the Mythos by trying to crowbar it into the framework of existing occultism.

[Nath]

It wasn't my original intention. I wanted to point out how you could conceptually divide the world between the four gods following this model, and I ended up checking if Games Workshop guys didn't actually used those elements as a basis, and wrote it up to explain some concepts further. I guess that would have been more appropriate as a footnote.

My point was that the four gods can match an all-encompassing, symmetrical symbolism of life that is neither inherently good or bad, just as well as four elements or twelve constellations. Names are just that, names. On a basic level, it's just about dividing the universe into concepts. And if those four concepts were good enough for greek philosophers with physical states or astrological names on it, I guess it can be good enough for roleplaying with Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle names on it.