500 word challenge

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:43 pm

It'd be kind of cool, but there's definitely a point where it gets absurd. My thoughts were more along the lines of "if Design said they wanted spidermon to be related and gave me the task of explaining how"

Night Goat · Post by **Night Goat** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:31 pm

I'd rather Araneas weren't related to Lloth in any way. I like spiders, and I'm glad a race of non-evil spider people exist. Spiders get too much hate, both in fiction and in reality.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:55 pm

Night Goat wrote:I'd rather Araneas weren't related to Lloth in any way. I like spiders, and I'm glad a race of non-evil spider people exist. Spiders get too much hate, both in fiction and in reality.

To be honest... it may actually be time to retire Lolth as a villain, or at least as a pure villain. Drow are popular, and player character Drow are popular. 5th edition is finding itself name checking Drow heroes, because Drow heroes are more popular than Mearls. It's all well and good to be a revolutionary outcast of Drow society, but that story is old and tired and doesn't explain why you're able to perform basic functions like go into town and buy supplies.

If people want the Drow to be normally playable, and they do, there are really only a couple of choices: Lolth can be defeated outright and the Drow story upgraded to a post-Marshall Plan scenario of Occupied Menzoberranzan; the Drow can have a big civil war where half of them ditch Lolth; or Lolth can defect to the Horde and the Drow high houses can join the Fellowship. Of those, I would say only the latter two options are "real" options, because simply ditching IP as valuable as the Demon Queen of Spiders is unacceptable.

By the way, if you want to check out the original Aranea, it's Here on page 24. That adventure is so much bullshit it'll make your ears bleed.

-Username17

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:31 pm

I really like Drow riding spiders, and the middle option doesn't seem to allow for that. Despite the fact that the last option seems the most contrived, I think it's the best choice for PCs interested in making Drow characters.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:19 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:I really like Drow riding spiders, and the middle option doesn't seem to allow for that. Despite the fact that the last option seems the most contrived, I think it's the best choice for PCs interested in making Drow characters.

Actually, if you were going to do a Drow civil war, it'd be a crime to not have both sides flying spider banners. Because Arachne. Seriously. A nobody with no respect for the gods and too much talent for their own good gets the attention of Athena, the two throw down, and the nobody wins by weaving a tapestry about how the gods are fucking assholes, and then Athena proves that the gods are indeed fucking assholes. It's a story about being punished for maltheistic social commentary and also spiders. I cannot think of a better thing to adapt that story to than a Drow civil war.

Basically, you tell it as a story about a bunch of disaffected youth of lower-middle status deciding they'd rather do drugs, have sex, and create anti-establishment art than engage in Drow society's particularly brutal rat race. They revere the spider as a symbol of beautiful artisanship and celebrate the act of creation. By the time the priestesses realize how subversive the movement actually is ("they do drugs, have sex, and hate everyone with a higher status than themselves? So they're exactly like everyone else?"), it's large enough that sending in the assassins would be like tossing a match onto a powder keg. But eventually someone wildly popular crosses the line from mildly subsersive to blatantly sacrilegious, and they have to send in the assassins. Slap on a fancy name like "The War of the Two Spiders" or something and decide whether or not your Drow counterculture is more hippy or more punk (fuck you the answer is punk).

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:32 pm

I'm confused as to why both sides would get spiders in that scenario. One side is against the Spider Queen and the other side is for her, so chances are that the former side isn't going to have any spider mounts. To preserve the spider mounts, I would rather just handwave that Drow are just creepy elves that live in caves and raise spiders, and Lolth also happens to be a god that employs demons that look like spiders.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:47 pm

Because we are ripping off the story of Aranea, in which spiders are associated with artisanry, which is not part of Lolth's portfolio. Lolth's portfolio does not even begin to encompass the symbolic baggage people attach to spiders, and so there is totally room for people to fly a spider banner and have it not be a symbol of Lolth.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:12 am

I really liked Dragonmech's fluff for the drow trading enclave:

They've learned to be civil and non-violent and deal in good faith with surface people, for the goal of greater profit and power. The only way a drow trader will concede not making a sale is if they just plain don't have what you're looking for.

It's the fluff I use for the particular drow house my players deal with in a game I run. I'm sure they're expecting some sort of betrayal, but they can either spend the game waiting for the shoe to drop or get used to it, one way or another.

I like the idea of greater cultural contact and Smart Drow beginning to prevail over the "Let's skin them and feed them their own balls!" drow by dint of becoming the rich and powerful.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:51 am

...You Lost Me wrote:I'm confused as to why both sides would get spiders in that scenario. One side is against the Spider Queen and the other side is for her, so chances are that the former side isn't going to have any spider mounts. To preserve the spider mounts, I would rather just handwave that Drow are just creepy elves that live in caves and raise spiders, and Lolth also happens to be a god that employs demons that look like spiders.

Both sides can be for the Spider Queen. It's not like worshiping the same god has ever stopped two groups from killing each other.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:17 am

hyzmarca wrote:
...You Lost Me wrote:I'm confused as to why both sides would get spiders in that scenario. One side is against the Spider Queen and the other side is for her, so chances are that the former side isn't going to have any spider mounts. To preserve the spider mounts, I would rather just handwave that Drow are just creepy elves that live in caves and raise spiders, and Lolth also happens to be a god that employs demons that look like spiders.
Both sides can be for the Spider Queen. It's not like worshiping the same god has ever stopped two groups from killing each other.

We're talking about a possible white (or at least grey) hat Drow faction. They can't be for Lolth, because Lolth hates them and this is D&D where Lolth can tell them so both indirectly and directly.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:27 am

DSMatticus wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
...You Lost Me wrote:I'm confused as to why both sides would get spiders in that scenario. One side is against the Spider Queen and the other side is for her, so chances are that the former side isn't going to have any spider mounts. To preserve the spider mounts, I would rather just handwave that Drow are just creepy elves that live in caves and raise spiders, and Lolth also happens to be a god that employs demons that look like spiders.
Both sides can be for the Spider Queen. It's not like worshiping the same god has ever stopped two groups from killing each other.
We're talking about a possible white (or at least grey) hat Drow faction. They can't be for Lolth, because Lolth hates them and this is D&D where Lolth can tell them so both indirectly and directly.

Right, so that's why the Drow Punk movement springs up as a cult of personality around a particular drow artist who says "fuck Lolth, she's a [EDITED] who just makes our lives harder. *glugs a goblet of heroin-laced wine* you know I've always been fascinated by the artistry of spiders... a proper spider god would represent us, the poets and weavers! Now, who wants to get coked out of their skulls and fuck their remaining brains out?" and we literally rip of the greek story of Arachne and mix it with a 70s punk pastiche.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:46 am

I agree that if you were going to go with the "Drow Civil War" angle, that you'd want the Drow "good guys" to be also flying a spider banner that was simply a different color set than the bad guy spider banner. Like a white roses versus red roses thing, but for spiders.

But regardless, there are several places in Drow lore that need to by cleaned up. For starters, Chitnines are redundant and that shit should just go away and stay away. But also, the fluff on Dryders is backwards and makes no sense. Lolth gives you more power and makes you look like her because... you failed? That's some serious 1980s Chaos logic right there. Obviously, Lolth should turn you into a Dryder for being awesome, not for failing a test.

Chaotic Evil doesn't make sense, and it makes even less sense for a race of people who have a rigid and complex social hierarchy. Moving forward, clearly you should dump the difference between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil, and frankly you should probably dump alignment altogether. No one has a problem identifying Grimlocks as bad guys based on the fact that they think it's a good idea to raid your village and eat your friends. They don't need a black hat label. But of course one of the things to come out of that is that the difference between Demons and Devils should be chucked. Which means among other things that the Demon Web Pits don't necessarily belong in the Abyss and really might make more sense in the Acheron cluster.

Regardless of whether Lolth gets a heroic conversion or stays a master villain, there would still be spider riding Drow on team player. Also, you're going to want to retcon a whole lot of crazy crap that has been written about the Drow over the years regardless. Drow of the Underdark was written by 3rd edition's C-team, and most of the information in there is kind of stupid.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:58 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Lolth gives you more power and makes you look like her because... you failed? That's some serious 1980s Chaos logic right there. Obviously, Lolth should turn you into a Dryder for being awesome, not for failing a test.

I hate to reference any part of 4E and use words like "good" or "sensible", but at least according to the Neverwinter MMO, they actually did stop smoking crack and went "Clearly, the more powerful, more spiderlike (and thus more goddess-resembling) Driders are the favoured of Lolth. They should be the special favourites who get to lead groups and give orders and shit, even if they're not the religious leaders (who will always be sexy near-nude priestesses)."

So you won't rustle many jimmies by making that declaration.

The bit about Drow being more popular than Mearls doesn't say much, mind you. Pretty sure most people have had fungal infections they liked more than him.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:04 am

I've always liked that one kind of fiend is regimented and sticks to the letter of the law with deals, while being cruel and vindictive about things, and another kind of fiend is full of weird random stuff instead of being so similar from category to category, and they're prone to just doing whatever the fuck all the time.

Which isn't to say that you need alignment, but that the difference among Fiends has enough to it that you can keep that going.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:05 am

Honestly, while I agree with you that alignments need to go die in a fire, I can still see a reason for different fiend types to exist. Devils represent tyrannical, oppressive, dictatorial evil. Demons represent destructive, rampaging, violent evil, and yugoloths represent manipulative subtle evil. I still can't think of anything for demodands to do, and in my games i really just play them as offshoots of the yugoloth. I think their canon backstory actually follows that.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:07 am

Demodands guard the evil prison dimension. While obviously there should be a prison dimension for things to get banished to and escape from, there's no real reason why you shouldn't just have Devils guarding it.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:21 am

Prak wrote:Right, so that's why the Drow Punk movement springs up as a cult of personality around a particular drow artist who says "fuck Lolth, she's a [EDITED] who just makes our lives harder.

I would not go the cult of personality route. It might seem like a distinction without a difference, but our hypothetical Arachne should be a martyr, not a leader - the movement itself is loose, decentralized, and full to the brim with compelling personalities, and when one of its many influences crosses a line that the priestesses can't afford to allow crossed the ensuing execution is the tipping point from counterculture to French Revolution.

@Demons, devils, and other assorted evil: Devils represent the cruelty of civilization, while demons represent the cruelty of the wild - laws of the tyrant versus laws of the jungle. It's a meaningful distinction, but as has already been pointed out you don't need alignments for it.

Yugoloths I don't even fucking know. They're supposed to be shrewdly detached mercenaries. but they are also supposed to be playing an incredibly long con game that will make them the rulers of all the things. It's honestly kind of muddled and stupid. Not only do those two parts not really fit together that well, it's also not really distinct from anything demons or devils already do. And with demodands it's downhill from there.

Demons and devils stay. The mercenary aspect of Yugoloths gets shoved off into small groups of unaffiliated demons and devils, and the "we are playing a very long and very evil game of hyperdimensional chess" aspect of Yugoloths is exactly what the lords of hell are already for. Demodands just go away.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:39 am

You haven't successfully transitioned the group into their grey hats though. If it's just a group of drow that do some extra heroine and paint more often then they are just a mildly different flavor of bad guy. Adding a strong leader who wanted their society more focused on art and culture rather than on demon worship would give the group the ability to survive the splitting off and reforming process. A group that manages to pull away from a power hungry demon queen and reform a new society is going to need a strong central figure to survive the transition.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:11 am

I'm actually totally on board with there being different kinds of fiends. Different evil worlds having different creatures on them helps distinguish the distopias. It seems pretty obvious that whatever world an Abyssal Maw is native to has pretty different fauna from the world that Rakshasa are native to.

The thing I'm not OK with is having a big war between civilized Evil and wild untamed Evil. That's dumb on several levels. You could have untamed wild Evil kind of surrounding your towers of authoritarian wickedness, but the idea of untamed wild monsters forming themselves into an army and prosecuting a war across the Gray Wastes is simply retarded.

4th edition actually rightly converted Succubi from Demons to Devils. While we complain a lot about that writeup, it's because she doesn't have any non-combat abilities, not because she's a Devil. After all, if you're making the distinction between civilized and uncivilized villainy, then any Seducer Fiend is pretty obviously supposed to be of the civilized variety. But of course, that logic applies to really most of the Tanar'ri. If your shtick is that you're an excellent multitasker and a brilliant general of Fiends (Marilith), you should probably be a Devil. If your shtick is that you make sketchy deals where you provide people with their heart's desire and then lead them to ruin (Glabrezu), you should probably be a Devil. And some of it goes the other way: if your shtick is that you're a giant cat who stealthily murders things (Bezekira), you should probably be a Demon.

In short, the different Fiend Worlds should themselves have both Demons and Devils on them. Devils from different Fiend Worlds should use Demons as beasts or burden and war. The word-keeping conniving authoritarian Fiends don't need word-keeping conniving authoritarian horses.

And yeah, Daemons and Demodands are totally unnecessary. The prison world of Tartarus can have Devils on it who are civilized and run things, and Demons on it that are uncivilized and run amok. These Devils and Demons can and should be different in apparent biology from the Devils and Demons who prowl the frozen hellscape world of Cocytos or the gold filled swamps of Minauros, but they don't need to have inherently philosophically opposed Fiendish badgers and shit.

-Username17

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:32 am

Dean wrote:You haven't successfully transitioned the group into their grey hats though. If it's just a group of drow that do some extra heroine and paint more often then they are just a mildly different flavor of bad guy.

The idea isn't that they're Drow except with more drugs, sex, and rock and roll. The idea is that they're a bunch of angry young Drow of middling to lesser status with no real prospects for attaining significant status, and so they reject the prospect of fighting eachother intensely and brutally over relatively small stakes in favor of drugs, sex, and rock and roll. Art is the expression of their disaffection, not the source of it. Instead of abandoning the spider symbolism that pervades their life, they reinterpret it in a way consistent with their values. It's supposed to be a 60's/70's style counterculture movement gone violent revolution when it encounters a golden calf too sacred to be tipped.

Dean wrote:A group that manages to pull away from a power hungry demon queen and reform a new society is going to need a strong central figure to survive the transition.

I think that is the exact opposite of true in this case. In Drow society, it is perfectly acceptable to solve problems by assassinating people until those problems go away. Drow society is exceptionally well-equipped to handle a subversive cult of personality. But you can't actually assassinate a martyr, because you already did.

FrankTrollman wrote:The thing I'm not OK with is having a big war between civilized Evil and wild untamed Evil. That's dumb on several levels. You could have untamed wild Evil kind of surrounding your towers of authoritarian wickedness, but the idea of untamed wild monsters forming themselves into an army and prosecuting a war across the Gray Wastes is simply retarded.

Demons aren't untamed wild monsters, they are just D&D chaotic for the definition of chaotic that means disorganized and stupid. That is presumably why the abyss is written as being infinite and undefeatable, because demons need to simultaneously suck and not automatically lose. I think the alignments should be scrubbed off, but I don't actually have a problem with the concept.

Invisible murdercats and flaming warsteeds probably shouldn't get demon/devil designations at all, and should just be called "fiendish beasts" or something. If it's getting either the demon or devil label, it should be intelligent and at least somewhat more complex in its lifestyle than a manticore (i.e. it should do more than wander around eating things).

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:09 pm

The fuck is a Bezikira?

EDIT: Okay, I looked that up, and wow, why is that a Baatezu at all, instead of just some other random fiendish creature?

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:10 pm

I find that reorganizing all the Demon and Devil labels is too difficult, so I just make them a nationality. Baatezu are fiends from Baator, Tanar'ri are fiends from the Abyss. They have their places in their respective societies even if they do not especially exemplify its virtues at all. Demodands and Yugoloths are fine from this perspective, and in fact the lack of any natives for Acheron or Pandemonium is something of a nuisance.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:59 pm

Acheron has Rakshasa. Still not sure what could go in pandemonium though.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:03 pm

EDIT: nevermind. Confused Pandemonium and Limbo.

Giant frogs.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:25 pm

Pandemonium is where Svartalfheim and Jotunheim are. So it's full of Frost Giants and Dero fuckery. And the Unseelie Court, so you have Celtic dark fey in addition to Norse dark fey. It's also where the Howlers are from.

But yes, Pandemonium doesn't have an explicit "tribe" of outsiders, which is odd considering how much 3rd edition tried to make people care about Sonic damage. If I was going to do it from scratch, I'd throw in the Rimtursar, who are Titan-esque outsider sponsors of Frost Giants and Fire Giants; and the Wisps (who include Boggarts).

-Username17