On Monks and Gauntlets

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Voss
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Post by Voss »

TiaC wrote:
Voss wrote:
next sentence wrote:A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
Other than making it lethal, it in all ways operates as a normal unarmed attack. (AoOs, damage, etc)
So, If I attack with the 1d3 damage weapon option of a gauntlet rather than the lethal unarmed strike option, do I provoke an AoO?
There is no option. Unless you're talking about a hypothetical monk that wears a gauntlet for no reason, but makes unarmed attacks with the rest of his body.

If you attack with the gauntlet, damage is d3 AND lethal. But still an unarmed strike, so yes, it generates an AoO. Well, I suppose you could take the -4 to hit to do nonlethal damage, same as any other weapon, but that would be stupid.
Last edited by Voss on Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tussock
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Post by tussock »

PHB, chapter 7 wrote:

Code: Select all

Unarmed Attacks
 Gauntlet          2gp    1d2    1d3    x2   1lb. Bludgeoning.
 Unarmed Strike    ---    1d2(3) 1d3(3) x2   ---  Bludgeoning.
Light Melee Weapons
 Gauntlet, spiked  5gp    1d3    1d4    x2   1lb.  Piercing.
(3) The weapon deals nonlethal damage rather than lethal damage.

Gauntlet: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage rather than non-lethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered and unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armours (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Gauntlet, Spiked: Your oppenent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of spiked gauntlets. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. An attack with a spiked gauntlet is considered an armed attack.

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any other character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the weapon finesse feat (page 102) to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.
Right. So gauntlet attacks reference unarmed strikes to grab the normal unarmed strike rules, which are light weapon status, IUS ability to swap the damage type without penalty, and not being armed (the rules for which you find under attacks of opportunity p137 and unarmed attacks p139). TiaC might want to read those.

But when you're wearing gauntlets, you can obviously still make unarmed strikes. Kicks, head butts, or other types of attacks, wearing armour makes no difference to that, helmets and steel boots do nothing. You get a choice, make a gauntlet attack for 1d3 damage or an unarmed strike for 1d3 nonlethal damage, both varying by size like every other weapon.

And when you're a Monk, and your class power causes your unarmed strikes to do 2d10 damage, you can still choose to make a gauntlet attack for 1d3, because it's still not the same thing as your unarmed strike. Even though it's an unarmed attack and references the unarmed strike rules.


And it's fucking pointless, as I said several pages ago. All the weird shit people want to put on gauntlets they can just put on their unarmed strike, because monks get to do that. Enchant it, it's a weapon for monks. Silver it, it's a weapon for monks. Cast flaming weapon on it, because unarmed strikes are a fucking weapon for monks.
PHB, 41 wrote:A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve manufactured weapons or natural weapons ...

@What would it look like?

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A character with Improved Unarmed Strike (such as a monk), or any other character wearing medium or heavy armour (except Hide) can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

It's not a separate weapon by the other interpretation, it's not in the weapon table, there's no gauntlet entry. You don't have gauntlet attacks, you just have unarmed strikes that can do lethal damage for some characters. Probably expand that to anyone holding a weapon really, for pommelling, or even all your improvised weapons and spiked crap and so on, changing the damage type and crit range as desired. For monks too, spiked monks for x3 crits and piercing damage, cool.
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Post by hyzmarca »

tussock wrote: And it's fucking pointless, as I said several pages ago. All the weird shit people want to put on gauntlets they can just put on their unarmed strike, because monks get to do that. Enchant it, it's a weapon for monks. Silver it, it's a weapon for monks. Cast flaming weapon on it, because unarmed strikes are a fucking weapon for monks.
So a monk can dip his bare hands into molten iron and have a cleric Align them so that he can punch Balors with his Good Iron Fists?
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Post by TiaC »

tussock wrote:And it's fucking pointless, as I said several pages ago. All the weird shit people want to put on gauntlets they can just put on their unarmed strike, because monks get to do that. Enchant it, it's a weapon for monks. Silver it, it's a weapon for monks. Cast flaming weapon on it, because unarmed strikes are a fucking weapon for monks.
PHB, 41 wrote:A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve manufactured weapons or natural weapons ...
It's not masterwork, so you can't enchant it.
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Post by ACOS »

hyzmarca wrote:
tussock wrote: And it's fucking pointless, as I said several pages ago. All the weird shit people want to put on gauntlets they can just put on their unarmed strike, because monks get to do that. Enchant it, it's a weapon for monks. Silver it, it's a weapon for monks. Cast flaming weapon on it, because unarmed strikes are a fucking weapon for monks.
So a monk can dip his bare hands into molten iron and have a cleric Align them so that he can punch Balors with his Good Iron Fists?
Also, the idea of someone (the monk) sitting there with the wizard for 6-1/2 months with his fists held out for Item Creation is quite ridiculous.
TiaC wrote: It's not masterwork, so you can't enchant it.
Yeah well, there is that, I guess.
Last edited by ACOS on Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

ACOS wrote:Also, the idea of someone (the monk) sitting there with the wizard for 6-1/2 months with his fists held out for Item Creation is quite fucking ridiculous metal.
FTFM.
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Post by ACOS »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
ACOS wrote:Also, the idea of someone (the monk) sitting there with the wizard for 6-1/2 months with his fists held out for Item Creation is quite fucking ridiculous metal.
FTFM.
:rofl:
:thumb:
Last edited by ACOS on Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TiaC »

ACOS wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:
ACOS wrote:Also, the idea of someone (the monk) sitting there with the wizard for 6-1/2 months with his fists held out for Item Creation is quite fucking ridiculous metal.
FTFM.
:rofl:
:thumb:
The wizard just needs to have access for 8 hours a day. Make the monk a heavy sleeper and things work great.
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Post by fectin »

A wizard needs to work straight through and can't be interrupted, but nothing actually says his subject can't do anything else. Nothing even says his subject needs to be there most of the time. You could, AFAIK, say that the 6.5 months are all preparation and the weapon only needs to be present at the very [end/beginning/whenever], and still conform to every RAW requirement.
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Post by souran »

Why is this even a thing people care about. The gauntlet is NOT on the monk weapon list. This means that after all this shit about weather or not the monk can use this and get his enhanced damage he still can't flurry of blows. Not that even if he could do both it would really fix the monk.

The person who plays a monk is going to want to be able to both flurry and do his extra damage. Thats the thing people play the monk to do. It is basically never level appropriate. It also doesn't matter because people who play the monk are people who want to play with the monks toys and not people who want to optimize for badassness.

How SHOULD it be played? Well honestly the monk needs to be able to get an artifact weapon that adds +5 to hit/damage and some elemental damage dice and all the shit that the fighter needs for his artifact sword but he needs to be able to do it on an item slot that is not normally allowed any of those enchants. However, thats not in the rules. Its one of the "hidden" rules of 3rd edition, and the problem with hidden rules is that they need to exist for shit to function but they don't exist because people would blow a fucking gasket if the were written into the rules.

Fighters need an artifact grade weapon at level 10, Monks need equipment that is illegal as per how the magic items rules work to function. Its hidden, but mandatory.
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Post by Sam »

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Post by Koumei »

TiaC wrote:It's not masterwork, so you can't enchant it.
Actually, if he doesn't mind being a slave to the Red Wizards of Thay, there's a Prestige Class that lets you magically enhance one of your natural weapons. And as a fucking monk, you're going to be enslaved by any Red Wizards you encounter, so you may as well do it willingly and benefit.

Then once it has any enhancement at all, you can improve it as normal by spending ages with a Wizard. Mind you, you won't be just finding new fists to stitch on halfway through an adventure. Although that would be somewhere between hilarious, weird and fucking metal.

Alternatively, if you play a creature that is specifically made out of some kind of special material that is always masterworked, you're sorted. Not sure how you're going to swing "I am made of adamantium" or whatever.
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Post by TiaC »

Warforged can do it. There's nice warforged monk cheese where you get hardness 80+.
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Post by Koumei »

Are they able to get both "I am made of adamantium" and "I am not covered in armour" at the same time though? Or do you just sacrifice the speed, AC Bonus (which is probably smaller than what your race + Enhancement (Because Adamantium = MW) can give you) and whatever other features, basically taking Monk all so you can have "Flurry of Misses with a magic 2d10 weapon"?

I mean, playing as one of those Russian face-punching robots sounds great and all, don't get me wrong. But if you have to give up just about every class feature, I don't think it's worth itnever mind, if you're playing a PHB Monk, it's never going to be worth it, fill your boots.
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Post by TiaC »

There was that thread on GitP about making an ECL 20 character with at least 17 monk levels that could solo all the Elder Evils. It has quite the cheese.
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Post by zugschef »

TiaC wrote:There was that thread on GitP about making an ECL 20 character with at least 17 monk levels that could solo all the Elder Evils. It has quite the cheese.
What part of that build is powered by actually being a monk?
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Post by TiaC »

Much of the cheese doesn't work without the unarmed strike counting as a manufactured weapon, which only monks get.
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Post by zugschef »

TiaC wrote:Much of the cheese doesn't work without the unarmed strike counting as a manufactured weapon, which only monks get.
That's one level of monk, not 17.

[edit] You could replicate this with an unarmed swordsage, btw. ;-)
Last edited by zugschef on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

souran wrote:Why is this even a thing people care about.
Granted that this isn't likely to ever matter, the rules are still the rules, and there are benefits to discussing them and working to ensure that there is a common understanding. The fact that there are two groups who think that obviously the rule in question means opposite things is an issue with rules clarity - so anyone with a 'fantasy heartbreaker' should take this as a textbook case where you can improve clarity.

Back to the topic, I think it is interesting that some people claim that the text This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes think that means This metal glove lets you deal a maximum of 1d3 lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.

Such a major limitation would need to be included in the text for the text not to trump the damage table. And while I agree that both Unarmed Strike and Gauntlet should have had a note about damage that varies from 1d3, it's pretty clear that the same factors that led to 'Unarmed Strike' to have a listed value of 1d3 also led 'Gauntlet' to have 1d3 listed. The same factors were at play, since both key off Unarmed Strike damage (per the quoted text above).
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Post by John Magnum »

deaddmwalking wrote: Back to the topic, I think it is interesting that some people claim that the text This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes think that means This metal glove lets you deal a maximum of 1d3 lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.
Who is saying that? Where did they say that? Are you just willfully misreading people?
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Post by zugschef »

No. We are in fact saying that you can deal whatever damage your unarmed strike does with a gauntlet on. But in that case you're not using the gauntlet as a weapon. So if that gauntlet was masterwork and/or enchanted you wouldn't get any bonus for attack or damage with your unarmed strike because you're using your fist as a weapon and not the gauntlet.

The only thing the gauntlet changes for you if you use it for making unarmed attacks, is that you inflict lethal damage in case you didn't anyway. For a monk that means that dealing non-lethal damage when wearing a gauntlet and making an unarmed attack with his fist actually gives him a -4 penalty instead of none, which basically means that a monk is worse off wearing a gauntlet than bare-handed.
Last edited by zugschef on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ACOS »

John Magnum wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote: Back to the topic, I think it is interesting that some people claim that the text This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes think that means This metal glove lets you deal a maximum of 1d3 lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.
Who is saying that? Where did they say that? Are you just willfully misreading people?
That has been the entire basis for Kaelik's argument - he's said that very thing at least 12 times already.
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Post by ACOS »

zugschef wrote:No. We are in fact saying that you can deal whatever damage your unarmed strike does with a gauntlet on. But in that case you're not using the gauntlet as a weapon. So if that gauntlet was masterwork and/or enchanted you wouldn't get any bonus for attack or damage with your unarmed strike because you're using your fist as a weapon and not the gauntlet.
How in the blue fuck can I use my fist and not the gauntlet? WTF?!
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Post by codeGlaze »

What about ... masterwork handwraps?
Basically masterwork-made bandages could be easily swapped out for different enchantments.

Or just masterwork brass knuckles?
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Post by deaddmwalking »

John Magnum wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote: Back to the topic, I think it is interesting that some people claim that the text This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes think that means This metal glove lets you deal a maximum of 1d3 lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes.
Who is saying that? Where did they say that? Are you just willfully misreading people?
tussock wrote: But when you're wearing gauntlets, you can obviously still make unarmed strikes. Kicks, head butts, or other types of attacks, wearing armour makes no difference to that, helmets and steel boots do nothing. You get a choice, make a gauntlet attack for 1d3 damage or an unarmed strike for 1d3 nonlethal damage, both varying by size like every other weapon.

And when you're a Monk, and your class power causes your unarmed strikes to do 2d10 damage, you can still choose to make a gauntlet attack for 1d3, because it's still not the same thing as your unarmed strike. Even though it's an unarmed attack and references the unarmed strike rules.
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