Bring on the Beatings! CG Paladin Alternate [Pathfinder]

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Bring on the Beatings! CG Paladin Alternate [Pathfinder]

Post by Covent »

First, I would like to say that the purpose of this class is to create a viable CG Paladin variant that is mechanically in the same ballpark as the Pathfinder "Good" Martials, (Paladin, Barbarian, Magus, Inquisitor).

I know that a Wizard, or a Cleric, or even any full caster is hands down "Better" than a Martial in scope of options and narrative power, however I have set the design goal above.

I would also like to add that I did not and do not plan to base this class on any comparisons to any 3.0 or 3.5 material, as I know that using such can in the hands of a halfway competent optimizer leave most non-spellcasters drooling and useless.

This does not mean I am not open to any input using such I am just going to take it with a grain of salt.

With that in my would anyone care to comment on the Champion of the Kami class?

My thanks in advance.
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Post by sarcasmoverdose »

First of all, I'd like to know what balance point you're aiming for. The power of the Kami class features is all over the place:

Monkey: Fighter-Rogue level; has spells that help enough to put up a serious fight, but gets them too late; spell list is borked (protection from x spells are fist and second level) and which spatbooks put out which spell is not listed

Cat: Monk level; Cat Kami is very underpowered, compared to simply taking martial study/stance as a fighter and grabbing some tiger claw moves

Turtle: Monk level; Turtle Kami can't deflect spells requiring an attack roll or touch attacks until level 20, and has no answer to effects that force a save or No Save, Fuck You effects

Bear: Monk level; Bear gains class features that are strictly inferior to low-level spells

Butterfly: Fighter-Rogue-Wizard level; Interesting healer, boons can be very powerful; hope's gift looks like an accidental nerf

Steel: Fighter level; fighter-ish powers, could be improved a bit

Fox: Rogue-Wizard level; Simply the best kami to take

Eagle: Rogue Level; Simply the best weapon based kami to take

Kami's Wrath: Fighter level; could be boosted to infinite uses/day (but only one target at a time) without unbalancing it

Wash Clean: Fighter Level; basically just lay on hands

Kamis embrace: Wizard level; helps you never fail a save, ever

Boons: Fighter-Rogue-Wizard level; awesome, if used properly; the wording implies that you can dump all boons you have, unless playing butterfly

Kamis Hand: Rogue-Wizard level; you get a free fighter (or a shitty magic sword, lol)

Aura of x: Rogue level: Means you don't have to grab immunity to these crippling effects from other sources

Code of Conduct: "A Champion of the Kami must be of Chaotic Good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act." Brings back the problem of "what's evil".

"Additionally a Champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, though she may use force to oppose them, nor may she act in a way so as to deprive another of freewill through direct or indirect means (such as by using or allowing an ally to use mind warping magic or abilities),though she may exercise her own will to oppose theirs, she must help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents." This is everything wrong with codes of conduct, all neatly bundled into a single paragraph.

"(such as by using or allowing an ally to use mind warping magic or abilities)" Brings back the Vow of Peace/Nonviolence problem.
Last edited by sarcasmoverdose on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Covent »

sarcasmoverdose wrote:First of all, I'd like to know what balance point you're aiming for. The power of the Kami class features is all over the place:
I am looking for as I said something that compares favorably with the Pathfinder Barbarian, Inquisitor, Magus, or Paladin.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Monkey: Fighter-Rogue level; has spells that help enough to put up a serious fight, but gets them too late; spell list is borked (protection from x spells are fist and second level) and which spatbooks put out which spell is not listed
Monkey is actually almost a direct port of Paladin, just using a different alignment and code. I simply removed compulsion spells and switched protection form chaos to protection from law in the spell list.

sarcasmoverdose wrote:Cat: Monk level; Cat Kami is very underpowered, compared to simply taking martial study/stance as a fighter and grabbing some tiger claw moves
Could you link me to martial study/stance? I was worried this Kami was too weak, however I keep being told it borders on OP.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Turtle: Monk level; Turtle Kami can't deflect spells requiring an attack roll or touch attacks until level 20, and has no answer to effects that force a save or No Save, Fuck You effects
Turtle needs a complete rebuild as it is very very weak. Theme is good but needs more omph.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Bear: Monk level; Bear gains class features that are strictly inferior to low-level spells
Really? Humm, I wanted an option for the person who wanted a purely physical hulking character and also had a sort of protective vibe.

I also find it funny as most people had told me Bear was too strong potentially so I toned down the STR and NA bonuses.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Butterfly: Fighter-Rogue-Wizard level; Interesting healer, boons can be very powerful; hope's gift looks like an accidental nerf
You may only use one boon when using Wash clean as noted under Boon's of Brotherhood.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Steel: Fighter level; fighter-ish powers, could be improved a bit
I agree on the strength of steel and have been toying with the idea of more feats.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Fox: Rogue-Wizard level; Simply the best kami to take
I personally thought that this was the strongest Kami, however until your response I was constantly told how weak it was due to MAD.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Eagle: Rogue Level; Simply the best weapon based kami to take
I like Eagle, but it may be a touch too goo right now.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Kami's Wrath: Fighter level; could be boosted to infinite uses/day (but only one target at a time) without unbalancing it
This is straight Smite Evil, and applies to any evil aligned caster for double damage. It is my opinion that it would be too much to grant this as an infinite use ability.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Wash Clean: Fighter Level; basically just lay on hands
This is lay on hands.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Kamis embrace: Wizard level; helps you never fail a save, ever
This is divine grace.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Boons: Fighter-Rogue-Wizard level; awesome, if used properly; the wording implies that you can dump all boons you have, unless playing butterfly
You may only use one Boon at a time. I liked the boons as well thank you.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Kamis Hand: Rogue-Wizard level; you get a free fighter (or a shitty magic sword, lol)
This is a buffed divine bond due to the fact that you can get better animal companions. Part of what made Cat good was the fact that it's companion was a (Cat, Small).
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Aura of x: Rogue level: Means you don't have to grab immunity to these crippling effects from other sources
Most of these are straight lifts from paladin rearranged except Aura of Truth. How do you feel about that Aura?
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Code of Conduct: "A Champion of the Kami must be of Chaotic Good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act." Brings back the problem of "what's evil".
I have come to accept that if I am to write for pathfinder I must use their paradigm, which unfortunately uses objective alignment and at table "Evil" arguments.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:"Additionally a Champion may not use force to dictate the choices of others, though she may use force to oppose them, nor may she act in a way so as to deprive another of freewill through direct or indirect means (such as by using or allowing an ally to use mind warping magic or abilities),though she may exercise her own will to oppose theirs, she must help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents." This is everything wrong with codes of conduct, all neatly bundled into a single paragraph.
I can see your point, however I left it as close to the original Paladin code as possible, simply changing specifics. perhaps a rewrite is in order.

I thank you for your feedback, and agree I would like a tighter band on the Kami.

Could you explain what you mean by (Fighter level)/(Rogue level)/Wizard level)? Are you referring to the tier system?
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Post by TarkisFlux »

I'm pretty sure sarcasmoverdose is using these balance categories (or the old names for them anyway).

We don't much care for the tiers around here, reasons available upon request. You can sort of map some aspects of them to these categories if your used to thinking in those terms already though.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org

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Post by Covent »

TarkisFlux wrote:I'm pretty sure sarcasmoverdose is using these balance categories (or the old names for them anyway).

We don't much care for the tiers around here, reasons available upon request. You can sort of map some aspects of them to these categories if your used to thinking in those terms already though.
Ah, Same game test!

I see. I do admit I find Tiers very subjective as well.

Thank you for the clarification. Please understand though that due to Pathfinder differences the rogue is substantially weaker which is why I was confused.

I appreciate both of your time.
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Post by sarcasmoverdose »

Covent wrote: Could you link me to martial study/stance? I was worried this Kami was too weak, however I keep being told it borders on OP.
From 3.5, tome of battle. Wouldn't hurt to give out superior TWF early on, and make it as good as wielding 2 2h weapons by level 20.
Covent wrote: Really? Humm, I wanted an option for the person who wanted a purely physical hulking character and also had a sort of protective vibe.

I also find it funny as most people had told me Bear was too strong potentially so I toned down the STR and NA bonuses.
Make the bonuses something that aren't just "+x to y stat", as those either tend to stack to silly levels or else conflict with items/buff spells. Like, for a big guy, give him a clone of "awesome blow", or boosted overrun, or powerful build, or the like. I'd be much more interested in playing a class full of abilities than a class full of numbers.
Covent wrote: You may only use one boon when using Wash clean as noted under Boon's of Brotherhood.
These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level Champion's wash clean ability heals 6d6 points of damage and might also add the Exhilarated, Blessed, Warded, and Lithe boons. Once a boon is chosen, it can't be changed.
Might want to edit this a bit, then.
Covent wrote: I agree on the strength of steel and have been toying with the idea of more feats.
As with bear, might want to add "abilities", like metal telekinesis or a chill/heat metal aura or the ability to temporarily turn a metal object into wall of iron or the like.
Covent wrote: I personally thought that this was the strongest Kami, however until your response I was constantly told how weak it was due to MAD.
Color spray more than makes up for losing a few points of strength. Likewise, invisibility help you get initiative and avoid attacks better than a few points of dex, etc. Sure, you'll want all ability scores high- but you won't need them.
Covent wrote:I like Eagle, but it may be a touch too goo right now.
I would have given clumsy flight starting at level 5 which gradually improves, and glide starting at level 1, rather than the SLAs.
Covent wrote: This is straight Smite Evil, and applies to any evil aligned caster for double damage. It is my opinion that it would be too much to grant this as an infinite use ability.
Looking at it again and PF smite evil, it's a lot better than 3.5 smite evil, so you're right.
Covent wrote: This is a buffed divine bond due to the fact that you can get better animal companions. Part of what made Cat good was the fact that it's companion was a (Cat, Small).
I would have given the bonded weapon unique abilities, like "take a standard action, attack all enemies in melee and make them save vs stun"(for bear) and "make a full attack, gain an additional x attacks" (for cat) rather than just "+1 flaming sword, whopdee fuckin doo".
Covent wrote:Most of these are straight lifts from paladin rearranged except Aura of Truth. How do you feel about that Aura?
It's something that's not going to happen until the very high levels (when casters are wishing and gating); as such, it should be a bit better (like SR 15+level and SR 10+ level for all allies, minimum).
Covent wrote:I have come to accept that if I am to write for pathfinder I must use their paradigm, which unfortunately uses objective alignment and at table "Evil" arguments.
Might be better to skirt around that as much as possible, by describing specific evil acts for example (arson, murder, jaywalking, etc) or good acts, rather than just talking about "good and evil" wherever you can.
Last edited by sarcasmoverdose on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Covent »

sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: Could you link me to martial study/stance? I was worried this Kami was too weak, however I keep being told it borders on OP.
From 3.5, tome of battle. Wouldn't hurt to give out superior TWF early on, and make it as good as wielding 2 2h weapons by level 20.
Humm, I have never read Tome of Battle as most of my 3.5 experience was straight PHB, DMG, and MM1.

I have heard good things and am open to it, however I do want to maintain a power level similar to the 4 pathfinder martials I listed, so TWF with two-handed may be too good. I am going to re-look at Cat, Steel, Turtle, and Eagle however as I believe the former three need assistance in reverse order and the latter may need some small balancing tweaks.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: Really? Humm, I wanted an option for the person who wanted a purely physical hulking character and also had a sort of protective vibe.

I also find it funny as most people had told me Bear was too strong potentially so I toned down the STR and NA bonuses.
Make the bonuses something that aren't just "+x to y stat", as those either tend to stack to silly levels or else conflict with items/buff spells. Like, for a big guy, give him a clone of "awesome blow", or boosted overrun, or powerful build, or the like. I'd be much more interested in playing a class full of abilities than a class full of numbers.
I can see your point, and I did create an iteration similar to that, however I kept getting feedback asking for the bonuses back as people wanted the savings on their WBL.

I am very open to this idea as I prefer modular abilities and unique effects rather than simple bonuses, however the Champion was my effort to write to the Pathfinder Paradigm as I am told my prior attempts were "OP" or "Much too good".
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: You may only use one boon when using Wash clean as noted under Boon's of Brotherhood.
These abilities are cumulative. For example, a 12th-level Champion's wash clean ability heals 6d6 points of damage and might also add the Exhilarated, Blessed, Warded, and Lithe boons. Once a boon is chosen, it can't be changed.
Might want to edit this a bit, then.
Good catch! That is a hold over from an old iteration, I will change it asap.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: I agree on the strength of steel and have been toying with the idea of more feats.
As with bear, might want to add "abilities", like metal telekinesis or a chill/heat metal aura or the ability to temporarily turn a metal object into wall of iron or the like.
Same as Bear, good Idea which I agree with but I am afraid of alienating my planned audience of the Pathfinder folks.

I will look into it however.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: I personally thought that this was the strongest Kami, however until your response I was constantly told how weak it was due to MAD.
Color spray more than makes up for losing a few points of strength. Likewise, invisibility help you get initiative and avoid attacks better than a few points of dex, etc. Sure, you'll want all ability scores high- but you won't need them.
This is how I felt.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote:I like Eagle, but it may be a touch too goo right now.
I would have given clumsy flight starting at level 5 which gradually improves, and glide starting at level 1, rather than the SLAs.
I believe I may adjust Eagle, however it may be only slightly and in a downward direction, rather than a buff.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: This is straight Smite Evil, and applies to any evil aligned caster for double damage. It is my opinion that it would be too much to grant this as an infinite use ability.
Looking at it again and PF smite evil, it's a lot better than 3.5 smite evil, so you're right.
Thanks, you have been very helpful.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote: This is a buffed divine bond due to the fact that you can get better animal companions. Part of what made Cat good was the fact that it's companion was a (Cat, Small).
I would have given the bonded weapon unique abilities, like "take a standard action, attack all enemies in melee and make them save vs stun"(for bear) and "make a full attack, gain an additional x attacks" (for cat) rather than just "+1 flaming sword, whopdee fuckin doo".
As with Bear and Steel I agree, however I am trying to leave some Paladin hold over as when I first presented a class for alignment exemplars it was universally shit-canned due to it not having any copy-pasta paladin abilities. I think that quite a slice of pathfinder players like to have some familiarity even in new crunch.
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote:Most of these are straight lifts from paladin rearranged except Aura of Truth. How do you feel about that Aura?
It's something that's not going to happen until the very high levels (when casters are wishing and gating); as such, it should be a bit better (like SR 15+level and SR 10+ level for all allies, minimum).
I will run some numbers for this. I was just worried that with a champions already good saves it might make her effectively immune to magic if I made it too much, however I do not want it to be worthless either. I hate class abilities that are a "Well I gave you something! Its useless, but it's something!"
sarcasmoverdose wrote:
Covent wrote:I have come to accept that if I am to write for pathfinder I must use their paradigm, which unfortunately uses objective alignment and at table "Evil" arguments.
Might be better to skirt around that as much as possible, by describing specific evil acts for example (arson, murder, jaywalking, etc) or good acts, rather than just talking about "good and evil" wherever you can.
Humm, I see your point. Will take a look at the code.

My thanks again for your feedback and time.
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Post by ishy »

Covent wrote:
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Wash Clean: Fighter Level; basically just lay on hands
This is lay on hands.
Fuck you for not just calling it lay on hands then.

I must admit, I gave up after reading cat and turtle.
Let me explain why they suck, hard.
Cat: A small cat companion is not very good. You have companions that rock and ones that suck in pathfinder. A small cat is probably somewhere near the middle. Not something you'd ever pick (and medium characters might not be able to ride it, since it is common for DMs to require mounts to be larger)

The abilities:
Feline Trickery (Ex):
list of bonus feats without meeting the prerequisites; Two-Weapon Fighting,
At level six add Improved Two Weapon Fighting
So is the intent that people are forced to retrain their old two-weapon fighting feats, once they pick up the new ones (that they don't need the previous feat for?). Or are people supposed to make tough choices between sucking now or sucking later?

Cat's Dance: Why the difference between light weapons and other weapons?
Why am I supposed to care about an ability that gives me a +1 to hit?

I don't care about level 20 abilities for obvious reasons.
Cat needs to be able to do something when you can't full-attack, something like pounce or spells or a knockdown charge, whatever you need something.

Turtle:
Why the fuck would I ever take this?
Is bashing finish supposed to trigger off shield slams?
How do I get people to not ignore me / how do I aid my allies in any meaningful manner?
Yes my armour class is unhittable, but who attacks someone wearing a tower shield in the first place?
For every five levels past levels past level six
I think you duplicated a you duplicated a couple of words there.
Last edited by ishy on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Covent »

ishy wrote:
Covent wrote:
sarcasmoverdose wrote:Wash Clean: Fighter Level; basically just lay on hands
This is lay on hands.
Fuck you for not just calling it lay on hands then.
While I understand your objection, I changed the name for three reasons.

1.) To allow for the creation of feats and abilities that effect only the champion class, and its abilities.

2.) For pure flavor. While I am aware this is a purely subjective effect, many individuals I have had review many different pieces of material respond very differently to the same mechanics under a different name. I can use this to create a pleasing effect on my target audience.

3.) To eliminate the stupid idea that a Champion has to have a hand free to use this ability on herself.
ishy wrote:I must admit, I gave up after reading cat and turtle.
Let me explain why they suck, hard.
Cat: A small cat companion is not very good. You have companions that rock and ones that suck in pathfinder. A small cat is probably somewhere near the middle. Not something you'd ever pick (and medium characters might not be able to ride it, since it is common for DMs to require mounts to be larger)
I honestly never saw the companions as primary mounts, so I can see that as a valid point.
ishy wrote:The abilities:
Feline Trickery (Ex):
list of bonus feats without meeting the prerequisites; Two-Weapon Fighting,
At level six add Improved Two Weapon Fighting
So is the intent that people are forced to retrain their old two-weapon fighting feats, once they pick up the new ones (that they don't need the previous feat for?). Or are people supposed to make tough choices between sucking now or sucking later?
Perhaps I do not understand, however if I choose to not take TWF and simply took ITWF at level six I would have an attack sequence as follows.

Mainhand (First Iterative)/Offhand (First Iterative)/Mainhand (Second Iterative)/Offhand (Second Iterative) However I would suffer huge penalties for not using the original TWF feat (-2 and -6 respectively).

Now if I used TWF and not ITWF I would have the following sequence:
Mainhand (First Iterative)/Offhand (First Iterative)/Mainhand (Second Iterative), thus losing an iterative attack.

In pathfinder you need to take all of the TWF feats to scale TWF completely unfortunately.
ishy wrote:Cat's Dance: Why the difference between light weapons and other weapons?
Why am I supposed to care about an ability that gives me a +1 to hit?
Mainly due to all other existing paizo TWF archetypes making a distinction, however I can see that perhaps it is a bad design holdover.

I modeled this to closely resemble other archetypes and the main idea is to eliminate the TWF -2 penalty.
ishy wrote:I don't care about level 20 abilities for obvious reasons.
Cat needs to be able to do something when you can't full-attack, something like pounce or spells or a knockdown charge, whatever you need something.
Cat does get pounce as a choice, but not until level 16, so I can see the argument that it needs to happen earlier.
ishy wrote:Turtle:
Why the fuck would I ever take this?
Is bashing finish supposed to trigger off shield slams?
How do I get people to not ignore me / how do I aid my allies in any meaningful manner?
Yes my armour class is unhittable, but who attacks someone wearing a tower shield in the first place?
Yes bashing finish would trigger off of shield slams.

I need a mechanic that removes/lessons a tower shields ACP and also increases its DPR output.

Once those are in you would do the same thing any other martial does, kill it with weapons.

I was trying to emulate a shield focused warrior here, but honestly I feel like I failed.

Turtle sucks and needs a rewrite, period.
ishy wrote:
For every five levels past levels past level six
I think you duplicated a you duplicated a couple of words there.
Yep, thanks for the heads up I'll fix that.

Also thanks for the feedback.

If you ever get around to reading the rest I would like to hear your thoughts.


Edit: Edited lots to fix tags screw up. My apologies.
Last edited by Covent on Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:23 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Post by ishy »

Sorry I messed up on the two-weapon fighting thing.
Covent wrote:I need a mechanic that removes/lessons a tower shields ACP and also increases its DPR output.

Once those are in you would do the same thing any other martial does, kill it with weapons.

I was trying to emulate a shield focused warrior here, but honestly I feel like I failed.
I'd like to think that someone who wants to play a shield focussed martial does not want it to play like any other martial.
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Post by Covent »

ishy wrote:Sorry I messed up on the two-weapon fighting thing.
Covent wrote:I need a mechanic that removes/lessons a tower shields ACP and also increases its DPR output.

Once those are in you would do the same thing any other martial does, kill it with weapons.

I was trying to emulate a shield focused warrior here, but honestly I feel like I failed.
I'd like to think that someone who wants to play a shield focussed martial does not want it to play like any other martial.
Thank you...

I just had an epiphany, and have to go write it down. If this works turtle will be very different.
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Post by sarcasmoverdose »

Put it this way- you couldn't do the fluff worse than Paizo's paladin archetypes.
Oath of Prissiness wrote:For some paladins, beauty is synonymous with virtue, and it is the lens through which all goodness is filtered. For these champions, who are aware that aesthetics is subjective, beauty is the form inviolate.
Code of Conduct: Respect the innate beauty in all things, and strive to preserve it from corruption and perversion. Never willfully cause damage to crafted objects or works of art, nor cause a creature or object to be deformed in any way.
Oath of the Eunuch wrote:A chaste paladin proves her purity by way of her action and her abstinence from romantic activities. Many believe that this oath is only about sex, but it is really an oath about the romantic notion that a single person could be more important than all the evils facing the world—it is this perceived selfishness that the bearer of the Oath of Chastity strives to reject. In doing so, she gains purifying power.
Code of Conduct: Never engage in a romantic relationship or a sexual act.
Oath of the Dragon Cockblocker wrote:Few dragons see the smaller races of the world as their equals—to most, humanoids are either food or an annoyance. Some paladins swear to protect others against the predation of dragonkind. Some include dragon-blooded creatures (such as half-dragons or even sorcerers with the draconic bloodline) in their oath and team up with inquisitors to root out those whose ancestry carries the taint of dragon magic. Many paladins with this oath are thrill-seekers for the cause of good, channeling their divine power in ways that allow them to take on their powerful foes head on.
Code of Conduct: Slay evil dragons, as well as other dangerous dragons whether or not they are evil. Prevent the bloodlines of other creatures from being corrupted with draconic power. Protect the innocent against the predation of dragons.
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Post by Covent »

Massive changes in layout and appearance, along with some changes to multiple Kami.

All art is mined from the internet and I own none of it! It is just for flavor purposes.

If anyone feels like it please feel free to enjoy.
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
sarcasmoverdose
Apprentice
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Post by sarcasmoverdose »

Covent wrote:Massive changes in layout and appearance, along with some changes to multiple Kami.

All art is mined from the internet and I own none of it! It is just for flavor purposes.

If anyone feels like it please feel free to enjoy.
A few quick suggestions- allow turtle to take hits for nearby allies (give him cub protector), allow cat to get full strength bonus to offhand weapon early on, give bear 2h weapon bonus, allow shivered steel to target other metal objects than weapons (so it can be used to break doors or shields, for example).
RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp »

On Cat: Pounce is seriously something that needs to come online by level 6, because this is already a level behind Wizards Flying, and the same level you get your first iterative. Being penalized for being mobile at that point is just bad.
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Covent
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Post by Covent »

Some changes, orginal link works for new document.

@sarcasmoverdose:

I decided that I wanted to leave cub protector with bear to maintain the range/family protector vibe I am trying to establish.

I decided that as cat has the option to pick up double slice as early as level one by using their regular feat to leave as is for now.

I decided to leave Bear as is for now as I am hesitant to add more offense until I see it in play.


Shivered Steel Change is below.


@RelentlessImp

While I was originally resistant to the idea of more buffs for Cat, especially as the earliest a martial gets pounce in Pathfinder was 10, I reconsidered after looking at the facts that an Eidolon can have pounce at one and a druid can do it at 6 with wild shape. Please see change below.

I appreciate all the feedback.

Change log: Expended Shivered Steel to all Metal objects that are not animate within 30 ft, added Claw pounce as an additional free level six bonus feat, changed Cat level 16 feats as they now sucked, lots of aesthetics.
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
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Aryxbez
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Post by Aryxbez »

TarkisFlux wrote:We don't much care for the tiers around here, reasons available upon request.
Though I'm not regarding the subject of this thread, I myself do wish to request for why not liked so much. Given any rating system will be found to have holes in places, or not 100% absolute. However, I've seen it been used on the Den before in discussion, but it's also been condemned simultaneously I know that much. Personally, I actually quite like the rating system, but I prefer the Class names Monk/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard respectively ("High" & "Very High" I find far more vague than using those classes for example).
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries

"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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