Chewing-on-Wargame-Scenery-Review: WH40K7E

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Red_Rob
Prince
Posts: 2594
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:07 pm

Post by Red_Rob »

Wow. My brother pointed this out to me

Image

Its a hover-chariot pulled by wolves in a bionic space-harness. With a Space Marine riding on it. There are no words.
Simplified Tome Armor.

Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.

“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

i see you have met the space wolves.
par for the course.
to quote:
"The best way to defeat a Space Wolf is to wolf his wolf. You must be careful, though, because if the Space Wolf wolfs your wolf first, then your wolf is wolfed."
—Attributed to Wolf Rider Volk Wolfclaw, On the Weaknesses of the Space Wolf Doctrine.

"A good way to get into a state of pure wolfness, would be that you shall wolf the wolf until the wolfing wolf wolfs. Then, when the wolf wolfs your wolfness, the wolves of the wild will wolf your wolf up. Wolf!"
—Attributed to Wolf Master Jonal Wolfhand, "The Call of the Nightblizzard".

"Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolfity wolf. Wolf wolf, wolfo wolfy wolf wolf wolf. Wolf? Wolf!"
—Attributed to Wolf Lord Egil Ironwolf, On the Intricacies of Tactical Wolffare.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Ahahaha, that's hilarious. And terrible.

Honestly, the Space Marines have land speeders. They have no need for wolf chariots. But let's say they only had hovertech, not propulsion... why did they have to make the actual chariot look like something Robotnik rides?
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

Because they are SPESS VIKINGS!
That's actually Logan Grimnar right there.
Stormrider.
Lords of War

Logan Grimnar: OBLIGATORY 200+ PTS NAMED CHARACTER, now taking up the Lord of War slot. He is pretty great. He's lost all his really cool FOC-modding rules for little-to-no benefit besides a fancy new sled mentioned below. However, he's still a pretty nasty h2h fighter, complete with good gear (His axe can either be an S+2 AP3 Frost Blade or an Sx2 AP2 Two-handed Unwieldy weapon to kill big monsters), Eternal Warrior, Stubborn, and his Warlord Trait lets nearby friendly units re-roll failed morale, an ability quite useful to the painfully-average LD units of the Space Wolves. He is quite expensive though, more expensive than two discount characters, and good at little beyond bashing people in the face, so consider him carefully...I've seen Mr.Grimnar take on a Dreadknight AND Kaldor Draigo 1v2. Guess what? He came out victorious with two wounds.

Stormrider: 7th Edition has given Logan a baffling new accessory for 70 points: An open-topped hovering chariot, dragged along by wolves. We couldn't make this shit up even if we tried. This Armor 12/12/12 has 3 HP and 3 BS, which is worse than his own, but it comes with a 4++ that makes pens against it into glances, making sure he'll last as long as he can. To make the wolfing thing even worse, it gives Logan a bonus 4 S5 AP- Rending attacks in close combat at I5 and gives him the ability to move up to 12" in the moving phase. Yeah, he's finally getting the ability to go fast without joining with Termies.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

I like how that open sled is better-armoured than a Rhino or Chimera. It looks so much more resilient, doesn't it?

Also, this is currently what an Objective Secured Imperial army can look like:

2 HQ +1 Allied HQ +1 Inquisition HQ
3 Elites + 1 Allied Elite + 1? Assassin
6 Troops + 2 Allied Troops + 3 Inquisition Troops
3 Fast Attack + 1 Allied Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support + 1 Allied Heavy Support
1 Fortifications
1 Lords of War
1 Imperial Knights
(You've clearly gone above 2,000 points, so double all of that)

Yes, that's right. Without breaking into the whole "Anything goes" thing, just using actual FOC slots and giving your Troops the Objective Secured rule, they can seriously use seven different books to make the list. Meanwhile if someone is playing Chaos Meringues, they lose ObSec if they dare to add a Helldrake to their Raptors + Bikers + Spawn.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Laertes
Duke
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:09 pm
Location: The Mother of Cities

Post by Laertes »

...what the fuck? If Games Workshop's constant, relentless shark-jumping could somehow be used to generate electricity, climate change could be averted overnight.
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5861
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

That chariot is nearly perfect but there is always room for improvement. To upgrade that chariot I would strap little wolves to the paws of the big wolves. Quadruple your wolfing right there.
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

Well, the chariot already has 4 wolfheads you can see on it . . i assume it has 2 or 3 more on the other side . . but i feel they should have made the whole thing in wolf form, at least the front should be one big snarling wolfhead with metal teeth and guns or flamethrowers shooting out of it . .
Something like the stupid theme cars every last single theme cartoon series had. like the cat formed tank of thundercats, but in wolf form . .
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
Akiosama
NPC
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:24 pm

Post by Akiosama »

Koumei wrote:That's true, particularly in recent years, but GW has the upper hand (in the Western markets) when it comes to big things: dragons, mecha, biglargemcfuckenhuge tanks and weird flying churches or cauldrons with twirling flame-and-smoke towers that have demons sitting on them.

Now if you look at a global market because you're in a world where you're able to order things from other continents and convert currencies, Japan actually takes a massive shit all over GW by having far cheaper kits with more parts and complexity, and even after you assemble and paint them, they still have moving parts so can adjust their poses.

But the wargaming competition hasn't come up with stuff to compare with:
This

Or this

Or this

Or this

That's the best they have going for them though, and I don't think "four Baneblades on each side with minimal infantry" really works. If PP get their act together with their bigger GIANT ROBOTS (and make the rules actually support loading up on them), then they won't even have that.
I'll agree that those are good models, Koumei, though I'd say that the Colossals and Gargantuans can compete with the Imperial Knight on the big model, kinda cool level. It does depend on whether you like the faction motifs, already, though, I suppose.

Examples:

This

Or this

Or this

Or this.

Like I said, it's each to their own as to whether these PP ones can compete. I think they're pretty good in their own right.

However, I will point out that the price point is in favor of neither - it's all expensive as hell.

My 2 yen,

Akiosama
zeruslord
Knight-Baron
Posts: 601
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by zeruslord »

The big Privateer Press minis don't use their bigness, though. The Knight Titan has purity seals and tactical icons and stuff that's the same size as the detailing on the space marine next to it, and you couldn't cut its size down without losing that. There's some fine detailing on the Warmachine stuff, but they could easily be made and painted at normal Warjack scale without losing anything. The Protectorate colossal has less decoration than the average Menoth warjack, the Khador one doesn't fill space like the Khador heavies do, and the Cygnar one looks like it stepped out of a cartoon.
Akiosama
NPC
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:24 pm

Post by Akiosama »

I don't completely disagree about the scale, but much of that detail, seems to be just use of accessories that GW puts in most of their Space Marine kits, or is painted on. It doesn't seem like the normal sized details are integral to the kit itself as detail, and are more like add-on detailing, rather than detailing on the kit itself. Paintjob and add-ons aside, the detailing seems fairly equal between the two kits.

What you said about the Menoth, Khador and Cygnar Colossals can be seen, but I think (at least for the Menoth and Khador ones) it doesn't detract from the aesthetics of the model. I'm not all that much on the Cygnar model, either. The Galleon seems to use its space somewhat better, though.

My 2 yen,

Akiosama
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I think the level of detail on GW stuff just looks stupid. It reminds me of PS2 era Squaresoft design where everything looks over-designed and with tons of distracting extraneous crap on them.

Yeah, I know when you design a mini you WANT exaggerated details for drybrushing and highlighting purposes. Everything GW makes looks like it overdoes it.

This might be a stylistic opinion rather than an objective truth, so take it how you will.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

I like the designs Jes Goodwin does, he did the Space Marines as we know them now, the skaven, and the iconic look of tall helmed elves (when he did the miniatures for Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans). I think he's also worked on the new Necrons. Eldar Warlocks, that's another of his designs.

I'm not sure who did the green gorilla mad max orks, but that's another really strong design.

The space marine though is a really good 'generic' model that can be loaded up on with wolf pelts, lizard pelts, angel wings, demon horns, chains, studs, wires, and whatnot, while still being identified as a space marine.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

New necrons look good. Modern-ish space marines don't look bad (yes I know, beakies win etc), or at least they look less stupid than the really old stuff, but the newest space marines have the Centurions, which automatically lose any style contests. Like, you enter them into a Cool Pokemon Contest against fucking Magicarp and that fish will take the trophy.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:I like the designs Jes Goodwin does, he did the Space Marines as we know them now, the skaven, and the iconic look of tall helmed elves (when he did the miniatures for Michael Moorcock's Melniboneans). I think he's also worked on the new Necrons. Eldar Warlocks, that's another of his designs.

I'm not sure who did the green gorilla mad max orks, but that's another really strong design.

The space marine though is a really good 'generic' model that can be loaded up on with wolf pelts, lizard pelts, angel wings, demon horns, chains, studs, wires, and whatnot, while still being identified as a space marine.
I really find it interesting that you call out Space Marines and Skaven, because those are the sparest things in all of Warhammer. Rat pelvises and human pelvises are pretty fundamentally different, and I don't know which they use for Skaven because the Skaven wear skirts that obscure those details. Space Marines have some doohickies on them, but primarily they look like Star Wars Storm Troopers, with all the smooth clunkiness that entails.

-Username17
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

FrankTrollman wrote: Space Marines have some doohickies on them, but primarily they look like Star Wars Storm Troopers, with all the smooth clunkiness that entails.
The difference in silhouette is the main part, which is important when you have dozens of 28mm models on the table. The GW marines had...

-Giant shoulder pads that give a good smooth surface for decals, crests, screaming demon faces and whatnot that help identify them out of dozens of 28mm miniatures on tabletop.

-The backpack, it's the most machine heavy part of the marine design. It gives the GW marine a squared off silhouette, filling in what would be empty space to the side of the head and above the shoulders (and giving space marines a cohesive squared off silhouette from power armor to terminators to dreadnoughts), even though the model itself is made up of rounded forms.
Chaos marines have bat-winged vents that jut out more, giving them a more angular silhouette compared to the squared off loyalist space marine.

Image
I like how Goodwin's nurgle marine has a helmet that gets wider at the bottom, combined with his big gut it gives him a lower center of gravity compared to the other 3 that have more narrowed 'faces' and tall crests. They all have silhouettes that suit their character.

Image
Here's some 25mm stormtroopers in comparison. Very different silhouettes

-Large 'bell bottom' feet and ankles, which balances out an otherwise very top-heavy pauldrons-and-backpack model.
Image
Maybe it was inspired by Goodwin's fantasy chaos warrior design with the big leather boots that give the shins/feet a heavier silhouette? Just speculation


They were using dental tools to sculpt plumber's putty into little 28mm wardudes. The limitations of 80's sculpting is what makes the GW marine what it is, I like it the way I like designs made for 8bit and early 16bit games:

Image
Only two pauldrons and a backpack away to being a 28mm marine

Image
too bad Capcom never picked up the 40k license in the 90's, would've made for a fun sidescroller

Jes Goodwin and other sculptors have been at it for around 30 years now, they've developed distinct styles with their work. That's just what I like about them. I hope you don't take this as an attack against your aesthetic beliefs, I'm just sharing what I enjoy with the thought process behind it.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

If it looked like that and (and this is the important part) was made by Capcom without GW giving "helpful advice", I would play that.

Actually, GW would probably just tell them to FORGE THE NARRATIVE. That's their number one goal in all things, these days.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

So recent dexes have... done something interesting. Most Dedicated Transports are no longer slotless things in their own "Dedicated Transport" spot. They are now Fast Attack choices. This means a few things:

1. Armies from these newer dexes are more likely to ditch the Battleforged thing, because fuck spending all three slots on Rhinos. I mean, Space Wolves already want to spend all their Fast slots on Thunderwolves! But you still want metal boxes.

2. It no longer says "This unit may take X, Y or Z as a dedicated transport". If you have a Transport vehicle, then any unit can just start the game in it. Including things from Battle Brothers allied detachments.

So Space Marines still have the old style thing. Centurions can't take Drop Pods. This makes them sad. BUT! They can ally with Space Wolves and put Centurions with Grav-Cannons inside Wolf Pods! (There will later be a spot-fix rule that "There is so much weight and gravity that the drop pod automatically suffers a Crash & Burn result, with the usual low rates of survival for the occupants". People will then field more of these as orbital bombardments, with any survivors winning "Badass of the Year". They will then make a special detachment of five of these that detonate with the Vortex rule because of all the twisting gravity, and charge you five pounds for the digital download.)

Similarly, Wolves could take allied Sisters (I don't really recommend this) and put a Dominion squad with four Melta Guns in a Drop Pod. Slam that pod right behind an enemy Knight, spend a Faith Point, and then unload four Twin-Linked Melta Guns into the Rear Armour at point-blank range. Your whole thing there cost around 150 points and just detonated a 500+ point Lord of War choice (and got wiped out in the ensuing explosion). If you have the Drop Pod Assault rule, you might manage to do this on turn one while the Knight is still close enough to their other troops that the explosion takes them out as well.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

They're still purchasable as dedicated transports, they just ALSO have the option of being a Fast Attack transport for battlebrothers. So you can still have your troop marines in rhinos.

It would be amusing to have Duke Sliscus and 10 trueborn with shardcarbines hopping out of a serpent firing off 30+ shots that wound on a 3+, but Dark Eldar never had a problem with producing huge volumes of anti infantry shots.

Man, I just want venoms with fusion guns or darklances, something that has the imagery of flying real close to crack open enemy transports and then the dark eldar shoot up the survivors with poison shots before taking them as slaves in a charge.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Oh, both? Cool, that's not bad. So Dominionpods are basically as intended then?

Dark Eldar vehicles explode when you look at them, but are very fast and open-topped, so imagine if they were Battle Brothers with an army that had long-range Heavy weapons and were Relentless. For the sake of argument, let's call these hypothetical guys "Dark Reapers".

That's about the only "Eldar in Dark Eldar Vehicle" combo I could possibly recommend (with the bonus point for Reapers basically matching the DE aesthetic).

Crontrons have no Battle Brothers, so no clever tricks for that. Ditto for Nids. Chaos could put Bloodletters inside Land Raiders, which is something I guess?

And apparently I was completely wrong about the force org slots now. You just take any amount of detachments you want, and they can all be allied differently in regards to one another, so you can just take "A Knights Detachment" and "An Inquisition Detachment" and "A Necron Combined Arms Detachment" (Objective Secured, Primary Detachment) and "A Space Wolf Detachment" and whatever until you hit some tournament limit (typically two detachments only) or the points limit. So for about 650 points you could get 1 Necron Overlord in a Command Barge, 2x5 Immortals, each with a Destroyer Cryptek, and 3 Teslacraft. Meaning at 2,000 points you could take "That, three times" and pad the rest out and everything is Scoring and the Immortals have ObSec.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Ghremdal
Master
Posts: 203
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 1:48 am

Post by Ghremdal »

I don't know, Dark Reapers are already good enough with their own dedicated transport, the Waveserpent. 48" range means they don't really have to move much anyway.

The only unit in the Eldar codex I see getting some use out of is Harlies and maybe Wraithblades. Banshees are hopeless anyway.

Unless you are going for some Beast/Jet star, the Dark Eldar really bring very little to the Eldar codex. Well until the new codex comes out in a few weeks.
Post Reply