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Nebuchadnezzar
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The Devil is a singular entity and the only one who can trade for your soul.
I was half objecting before, and I guess I'm doing the same now. In the end, I'm just interested in what utility is gained via this restriction. Keeping the soul futures market unimpeded seems to create more story ideas than the reverse, and so I'm ultimately just looking for an explanatory sentence or two, Longes. I wouldn't have asked save for being just shy of black-out intoxicated, for whatever little that's worth.
Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar on Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Longes wrote:I'm okay with trading being bad, and demons trying to corrupt you, but I don't think that mere contact with Hell and its inhabitants should be automatically morally decaying.
Are you sure? Because it can be as subtle as exposure to neurotoxic elements, or just becoming inured to the suffering of others from wandering through a landscape where screams echo all the time.
Nebuchadnezzar wrote:I'm ultimately just interested in what utility is gained via this restriction.
I know you didn't ask me, but I don't think any of it is really about utility, except insofar as a certain amount of restriction stimulates creativity. It's purely a preference for one kind of setting element over another.

Honestly, the 'only one soul-broker' thing was counter to my assumptions, but that's actually most of the point of the collaborative game. And since I didn't actually have any particular investment in singular vs multiple soul-broker stories, I went with it. At the very least it ensures no-one's going to rip off the ending to Dangerous Habits.

Now, if it's actually a deal-breaker for you, that's cool; this is the most collaborative stage of the game and compromises are supposed to happen. But if you just think it's a strange idea... well, there are going to be a lot of those in play, and not much to be done about it.
Laertes
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Post by Laertes »

Longes wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote: Contact with Hell and its derivatives must damage a person's morality.
I'd like to object to this one. I'm okay with trading being bad, and demons trying to corrupt you, but I don't think that mere contact with Hell and its inhabitants should be automatically decaying.
Have you read Spares? The scenes in The Gap are what I think of when I think of the (plural) hell we'll be seeing here. It's a fundamentally alien environment in which humans are far more out of place than we would be in the deep ocean or on the moon. It should never be mistakeable for just another place. Humans are resilient creatures so we'll be able to survive it, but to survive hell unchanged is to do a disservice to how cool the idea is.

If this would be an acceptable compromise, I'm okay with the changes the infernal inflicts upon people not being "corruption", as long as there is a change.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Laertes wrote:
Longes wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote: Contact with Hell and its derivatives must damage a person's morality.
I'd like to object to this one. I'm okay with trading being bad, and demons trying to corrupt you, but I don't think that mere contact with Hell and its inhabitants should be automatically decaying.
Have you read Spares? The scenes in The Gap are what I think of when I think of the (plural) hell we'll be seeing here. It's a fundamentally alien environment in which humans are far more out of place than we would be in the deep ocean or on the moon. It should never be mistakeable for just another place. Humans are resilient creatures so we'll be able to survive it, but to survive hell unchanged is to do a disservice to how cool the idea is.

If this would be an acceptable compromise, I'm okay with the changes the infernal inflicts upon people not being "corruption", as long as there is a change.
I have not read Spares.
I just think that at the very least corruption of Hell should be resistible. By innate goodness, or willpower, or Pyro goggles...
ImageHell
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Nebuchadnezzar wrote:I'm ultimately just interested in what utility is gained via this restriction.
I know you didn't ask me, but I don't think any of it is really about utility, except insofar as a certain amount of restriction stimulates creativity. It's purely a preference for one kind of setting element over another.
Yep.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Of the proposed compromises, I am much more in favor of exposure to Hell-stuff being an irresistable and unpredictable transformative experience than it being resistable corruption. That opens the door for depravity, apathy, fanatic resistance, traumatic response, and all that juicy stuff; it keeps the infernal experience weighty while allowing a wide range of possible characterizations so people aren't pigeonholed.

The other thing makes it too easy to declare pet characters too speshul to be affected, which could undermine the stature that Laertes is trying to construct.
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Post by Laertes »

The palette round doesn't work by compromise, it works by veto. Longes and I have fundamentally different artistic visions for how this story will play out. Much as I agree with angelfromanotherpin's commentary on my idea, if that element is vetoed, I'm happy to withdraw it.

To misquote the former great Shadzar, play the game *by* the rules.
Last edited by Laertes on Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Feel free to discuss and negotiate. No one should be unhappy about what winds up added or banned on the Palette.
The Palette is your last chance to freely negotiate and build group consensus about your history... If there's a big disagreement about the kind of things you ant in your history, now's the time to find out and talk about it.
Veto isn't a term with any synonyms in the Palette section. It really is about finding mutually acceptable terms.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Ok, then consider my objection withdrawn, since I'm outnumbered :)
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Post by Laertes »

My apologies, I thought the Palette was subject to veto. Longes, if you'd like to talk out and reach a consensus, I'm happy to do so.

It may just be a difference in artistic styles. My background is in horror gaming, so the idea that anyone, even a hero, can make it to the end of a story without being thoroughly affected by their experiences is something that sounds strange to me. I like to see my protagonists bear the scars of their journeys, so that you can almost read a map of their past just by examining their current state. If this past involves hell itself, then those scars would be pretty deep.

This is possibly why I like it when my PC dies: a good journey has to end somewhere. Having a hero who just rides off into the sunset feels unsatisfying somehow.

Now, as angelfromanotherpin proposed, I'm entirely happy to have this be a "mutation" sort of change rather than a straightforward "become evil" sort of change. That could actually be a very good way of driving in the alienness of the hell realms and the differences between them. For example, the Hell of Ice and the Hell of Darkness would both deeply affect the explorers/conquerers/colonists, but would affect them in different ways. It also opens the door to the idea of "going native", and of the descendants of colonists eventually claiming themselves to be locals in the same way that the descendants of British colonists in America eventually declared themselves to be Americans.

Do you feel we have any common ground here? What's your artistic vision and background on which you base your position? Let's see if we can reach a shared vision.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

I've come to terms with your suggestion to the palette. Let's roll!
Laertes wrote:Now, as angelfromanotherpin proposed, I'm entirely happy to have this be a "mutation" sort of change rather than a straightforward "become evil" sort of change.
Why not do both? Hell affects different people in different ways. For some it's a physical mutation, for some it's a moral degradation and insanity. "Hell changes people"
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Post by Laertes »

If I may:

Contact with Hell and its derivatives changes people.

So that the entrance of the infernal into our world has a similar effect. Unless that's taking it too far?
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Gentlemen? Shall we move on to the first pass?
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Post by Laertes »

Absolutely.
Nebuchadnezzar
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

Longes wrote:Yep.
Would you please expound on this just a little bit?
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Okay, first pass. The only preference for turn order was me going first, followed by random order.

1. Me
2. Laertes
3. Longes
4. Neb

My addition is an Event in 'The First Portals Open': The first portal opens in just-conquered Constantinople; The Basalt Towers attack the Ottoman forces through it.

I've added a thread just for the history; I'm hoping I can keep the entire history in a single multi-edited post: Periods are quotes, Events are quotes within those, Scenes are spoilers within those. My thought is that we keep that thread for peanut-gallery comments and our own end-of-round discussions. Anything else, like questions or Palette-based challenges or other game-related content would stay here.

Laertes, you're up.
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Post by Laertes »

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Longes wrote:Yep.
Would you please expound on this just a little bit?
I'm behind Neb on this one. I, too, would like this idea expounded a little.
My addition is an Event in 'The First Portals Open': The first portal opens in just-conquered Constantinople; The Basalt Towers attack the Ottoman forces through it.

I've added a thread just for the history; I'm hoping I can keep the entire history in a single multi-edited post: Periods are quotes, Events are quotes within those, Scenes are spoilers within those. My thought is that we keep that thread for peanut-gallery comments and our own end-of-round discussions. Anything else, like questions or Palette-based challenges or other game-related content would stay here.

Laertes, you're up.
I'm still a little fuzzy on this. Can I add a new Period in between those, or am I adding Events?

If it works like I think it does, I'm going to add a Period:

The First United Democratic People's Republic of Hell (Dark)

Edit: Edited for socialism.
Last edited by Laertes on Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nebuchadnezzar
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

Hey, to be clear, is everyone cool with the ending period being 2100 CE? I'm not looking to stick stuff in that late yet necessarily, if at all, but wanted us all on the same page.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Laertes wrote:I'm still a little fuzzy on this. Can I add a new Period in between those, or am I adding Events?

If it works like I think it does, I'm going to add a Period:

The First United Republic of Hell (Dark)
In the first pass, it's Periods and Events, just not Scenes.

Just going through the rulebook again, I'm noticing that it isn't just titles we contribute – these should come with a certain amount of description as well, so everyone understands what's going on. For Events, this includes enough specificity to make a fairly clear picture, as well as the outcome, not just the beginning. (I've updated my own contribution.)

For Periods, it should include a broad historical overview, but not much in the way of specific happenings. Also, explain how it differs from one or more of the Periods around it. The example of a Period description from the book is: This is before the colonies build the warp-net, but they have developed faster star-drives, so you can travel between worlds in a few weeks rather than years. Interstellar commerce and travel is now commonplace. The New Sun faith from the 'Crusades' Period is everywhere, but it's not a fervent belief anymore, just customs and traditions that everyone shares without thinking about it.

For either, you should also attempt to justify the light or dark tone you assign to the element.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:
Longes wrote:Yep.
Would you please expound on this just a little bit?
If you want to know my reasoning, then it's just a personal preference. If you want me to elaborate on the idea itself, then:
Devil is a singular sapient entity with power limits undefined by the palette. He is the only denizen of hell capable of making contracts with living people (contracts that exchange soul for something)

EDIT: don't we need to add starting and ending period, and choose their colors?*saw the other thread* And doesn't the Lens choose the focus of the round?*checked the book, that's after the first pass*
Last edited by Longes on Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Laertes
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Post by Laertes »

The First United Democratic People's Republic of Hell (Dark)

This is the period after the hell colonies have stabilised enough that most of their inhabitants are born locally rather than immigrants or exiled criminals, but before the technology to create artificial hellgates becomes widespread. Secessionary wars by individual hells occur, as do attempts to create the titular unified multi-hell settler state. The mood is one of tragedy, as the heady idealism of the late Enlightenment and early Romantic periods becomes muddied with the brutal realities of infernal settlement and revolutionary ideology, and the often shocking tactics to which both earth and hells are willing to sink. It is therefore Dark.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

Containment zones around hellgates are established (Light) (Event in the Portals Open period)

Noticing the warping influence of hellgates, the governments establish city-wide quarantine zones, which leads to mass civic unrest, but limits the corruption.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

While there's been no need so far, it's probably a good habit to get into to specify exactly where on the timeline your element occurs, e.g. Before A; After B; Between C and D.
Nebuchadnezzar
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

The False Monarchy of Demons (Light) (Event:Portals Open-following Containment zones around hellgates are established)

European demonologists in the Livre des Esperitz/De praestigiis daemonum/Lemegeton tradition are taught how to offer a soul on lease, and influence the RCC into redefining Purgatory.
Last edited by Nebuchadnezzar on Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

From the description, that's too narrow and specific to be a Period, it's clearly an Event.
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