[OSSR]Earthdawn (1st Edition)

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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History »

Creatures
The jungle crawled with horrific creatures of both this world and others...

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They can't all be winners.
FrankT:

Clocking in at 28 pages, this is one of the longer chapters in the book. It is also massively, tragically, ridiculously too short. See, in an old-school fantasy game (which Earthdawn definitely is) you basically fight monsters, explore places, and stagger home under the weight of loot. The monsters are about as important as the player characters, maybe more. Certainly, Gygax brought out the Monster Manual before the Player's Handbook, and AD&D didn't appear to suffer for it. An old-school fantasy RPG could seriously just have a creature section that is over three hundred pages long. That wouldn't be weird. 28 pages, thus, is an extremely ambitious attempt at extreme brevity.

I could imagine a monster section this short working for a game like this, after all you are presumably going to presumably make at least one expansion book just for monsters at some point.

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Yup.

But if you were to have this work, you'd have to really focus on the low level threats. There are twenty two regular monsters in this chapter. In addition, there are three sample NPCs (an elite guard, a cave dwelling troll, and an ork raider), and a list of abbreviated stat lines for a pile of normal animals. And it spends a couple pages ranting about Dragons and Horrors, both of which are far higher level than this book goes, and arguably higher level than the fucking game goes. And there aren't enough monsters to get you through to 8th Circle in this book. What monsters exist aren't even biased towards the low end. You're going to end up fighting a lot of Ghouls. Like, really a lot of Ghouls.
AncientH:

These aren't Shadowrun ghouls, either, since all undead are pretty much the result of Nethermancy or Horrors (or, sometimes, Horrors using Nethermancy). I'd like to say that subsequent books addressed the issue, but aside from the strange and hilarious Creatures of Barsaive (where the narrator has to be continually reminded that the readers are not dragons and, perforce, cannot do much with the advice to "swoop down from behind and flame it to death") this mostly chalks up to many books have small creature sections stuck in the back, and most of those are Horrors of some description. So, you're fighting a lot of undead and Horrors is what I'm getting at.

That said, because this isn't a Shadowrun book that has to at least pay lip service to modern science and biology, the "normal" critters in this book go from bear-with-horns to alien critters the likes of which the world has never seen - but it's all D&D rip-offish fun.

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Earthdawn also has flying magical lizards that are not dragons. Also, dragons.

That said, there's call-outs to a lot of Shadowrun conceptions. Dragons are pretty much identical, albeit with some extra powers that SR dragons wouldn't inherit until later editions when the ED material was fresh in the minds of a new generation of freelancers.
FrankT:

The first part of the Creatures chapter tells us how to read a Creature entry. So on page 286 they do indeed tell us that a creature entry gives stats in terms of die steps rather than literal numbers. Which is good to know. And would have been even better to know back when they dropped the first creature writeup in a spell effect on page 161.

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AncientH:

Most writers for Earthdawn treated the Scourge as a microevolution event. Critters that couldn't cut the mustard died horribly and didn't leave offspring, the ones that did survive were mean and adapted quickly. Which is why "Cave Trolls" are treated as magical creatures that use crude elemental magic rather than actual Namegivers with disciplines. Likewise, most of the creatures given here have to have some stated excuse for how they survived the Scourge, usually by being appropriately sneaky/badass.

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In addition to the hit-or-miss black and white artwork, there's some gorgeous full color plates in this section. This is Verjigorm, the Hunter of Great Dragons. He's pretty much the biggest badass Horror in the setting, and later books suggest he created all the Horrors and maybe dragons too. He's worth a cool 2 million Legend Points if you can kill him. It's like stalking a tarrasque that's also an archmage.
FrankT:

Monsters have no real indication in them as to what circle of characters they are intended to be opposition for. You can sort of work it out backwards in that each monster is worth a number of “legend points,” so you can figure that you probably shouldn't be fighting monsters that are individually supposed to be worth more XP than you get in the entire session. But um... that's about all the guidance that Mister Kaer gets. There are a grand total of six creatures that aren't mundane animals that are worth less than 100 Legend Points and are thus consistent with a 1st circle XP parcel. If we don't count the Ork Raider, there are only five monsters available. There are Dragons and Horrors that are worth tens of thousands of XP, just to rub it in though.
AncientH:

It's the "we're aping D&D a little too closely" thing over and over again. One thing you do get that's good is that the Horrors section is front-loaded with a bunch of powers, and individual Horrors are assigned these Horror powers are different steps - which makes the entries shorter and easier to make your own Horrors, though LP values are up in the air.

As for the Horrors themselves...well, there's no universal rule on how common they are, no real connection in their appearance or abilities. Individually they range from bacteria (the Dread Iota, in a different book) to dragon slayers. Some of them look like aberrations, others are former Namegivers twisted into an approximation of monstrous spiders (okay, those are technically "Horror constructs," but you get the idea).

Typical Horror powers include Damage Shift (they move damage they've taken onto other characters), Horror Mark (ability to mark characters and affect them from a distance), Karma Tap (give characters a Karma bonus if they do actions telepathically suggested by the Horror), Skin Shift (literally, your skin detaches and moves around, it's painful), spellcasting, instilling terror, raising the dead...

A lot of the Horrors are formidable enough in a stand-up, knock-down fight, but for the most part you encounter them indirectly at first, because they more intelligent (and dangerous) ones like to corrupt Namegivers from behind the scenes, driving their targets to madness and causing them to betray, mutilate, and kill themselves and others, savoring the pain and death - some Horrors have more specific feeding habits than others, but you can well imagine the scenario of starting out the game trapped in a kaer, a random murder occurs, the gates are sealed and suddenly you're in a locked-house horror movie and the serial killer probably isn't just human...

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This is the only photo I can find of a despairthought, a relatively common mid-Circle Horror that looks like a giant larva. It targets children, and tries to convince them to do things that result in their family and loved ones getting Horror-marked, and often renders their victim suicidal. That's all in the stats, by the way:
Also, once per year the Horror can attempt to force the victim to commit suicide. In this case, the Horror and the victim each make three sets of Willpower Tests against each other's Willpower step, and compare the results of the tests. If the Horror's results exceed the victim's for each of the three tests, the victim commits suicide within 24 hours. The Horror usually does not invoke this power for at least a full year after invading the victim, preferring to wallow in the pain it can cause the victim during that time.
FrankT:

As we mentioned in the Combat section, this is pretty much the section that actually tells you how good you are. The difficulty of your attacks are the physical defenses of the monsters you face. And so we sort of have some levels of opposition. There are monsters that you might fight as a starting character (generally difficulty 7 or less), monsters tougher than that (difficulty 8-10), really tough monsters (difficulty 12), and then frickin insane things (difficulty 20 and more).

You can kind of put together an idea of what a monster in a bracket is supposed to look like. But only kind of. There just aren't enough data points to make any firm pronouncements.

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AncientH:

Again, it's old school. You're not supposed to look for "level appropriate challenges" and fight until you drop. You need to learn the wisdom of when the fuck to run away, and when to run away very fast.

That said, there's not many out-and-out closet trolls, except for Cadaver Men, which are reanimated dead people that look like zombies but fly into a rage when Wounded and make 4 fucking attacks a round, which at low levels means they will tear your shit up. There's also several monsters that, uh...well, I don't want to say disappear, but don't fit the aesthetic that Earthdawn developed and are basically never fucking referred to again anywhere, like Triplicants ( a weird, slender critter that summons duplicates of itself).

Next up: The Passions of Barsaive (not porn, I promise! Maybe some titties, if you're good.)
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Post by Maxus »

The picture of the superhorror is broken.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by erik »

Maxus wrote:The picture of the superhorror is broken.
That's how scary it is.

(actually it works fine for me. cache problems?)
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Post by Maxus »

erik wrote:
Maxus wrote:The picture of the superhorror is broken.
That's how scary it is.

(actually it works fine for me. cache problems?)
Huh. Nope. Even tried on another browser.
Last edited by Maxus on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Attempting rehosting just for Maxus:
Image
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Maxus »

Aw, thanks, Josh! I can see it now.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

So you can see the horror......must be the .de domsin of the img giving you issues.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Ancient History »

The Passions of Barsaive
The Passions lie between Name-givers and the universe. They are all the emotions that dwell within us and all the emotions we share with the world.

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We know you were hoping for side boob, but this is Earthdawn, and there is very little sideboob to go around.
FrankT:

At ten pages, the Passions chapter is pretty short. Coming near the end of the book, it feels almost like one of those Appendices from the end of an AD&D book. Appendix A: Religion, it might be called. The people of Barsaive have a semi-Vedic religion, where the universe is channeled through anthropomorphized godlike avatars who in turn pass powers on to their avatars on Earth. Well, actual Vedic religion wasn't a whole lot like that, but it's a lot like D&D players kind of thought Vedic religions were like in the 70s and 80s.

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Here are your Avatars Passions.

Essentially what we have here is an honest attempt to make D&D-style polytheistic religion “more realistic.” So we have explanations of why people dedicate themselves to only one of the gods despite the fact that in real world polytheistic religions that doesn't generally happen. We get explanations for why some people can channel god powers and other people can't. And we get enough cultural tie-ins that we can be assured that the regional religion actually works this way and includes space for people who follow different gods to all basically be accepted by the regional culture.

And of course, we get space for evil gods and people who follow them. Which is pretty fucking rare in real world religions, but pretty ubiquitous in D&D land.
AncientH:

I mentioned before that Earthdawn doesn't have clerics. It doesn't even have gods in the typical polytheistic sense, or at least it refuses to call them that. Instead you get 12 cosmic anthromorphic principles, three of which were corrupted by the Horrors and went insane, becoming the Mad Passions (well...the jury's still out on whether or not Vestrial was a lying douchebag to begin with).

That said, this is closer to a popular faith than anything else. There are no priests and priestesses of the Passions, no formal hierarchy. There's just wandering Questors and stories, maybe a holiday or superstition or ceremony at weddings and funerals. And Questors do not turn undead or heal people (well, some of them, but not all of them).

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Lochost has a soft spot for Orcs, because they used to be enslaved by everybody.
FrankT:

There is a fully realized fluff for D&D style Clerics, and they are called Questors. What there is not, at least in this book, is any rules for them at all. Questors get powers from their gods Passions, and those powers apparently include a Healing focus, because they are basically D&D Mythoi Priests. But... there aren't any rules for this. There is an entire set of rationalization for why the Clerics get their own spell lists and talent lists, but then the chapter just ends abruptly before it actually does any of that. Whether Questors are supposed to be one discipline or twelve is unclear.

Spoiler alert: the whole idea of Questors as co-equal to Magicians and Adepts gets scrapped entirely, and Questorism gets introduced as a bonus Talent that Adepts can take. Yeah... really looks like they started with one White Mage discipline (or possibly two, if the “Mad Passions” got their own Discipline to be evil with), then started writing more and more stuff to distinguish the different flavors of Cleric Questor, and then finally said “Fuck It” and “made is a feat Talent.”

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The fact that the authors are running out of give-a-damn is fairly palpable.
AncientH:

Yeah, we could go on, but Questors really never made a strong imprint on the setting, as much as Passions and Mad Passions were brought up from time to time. At the end of the day, though, you don't need clerics in D&D, and Earthdawn realizes that all the crap with temple hierarchies and stuff plays well enough for Conan but is just a time sink in roleplaying terms. Anyway, the main Passions are:

Astendar (Love, Art, Music)
Chorrolis (Wealth, Trade, Jealousy, Desire)
Dis (COnfusions, Unnecessary Work, Bureaucracy, Slavery)
Floranus (Revelry, Energy, Victory, Motion)
Garlen (Hearth and Healing)
Jaspree (Growth, Care of the Land, Love of the Wilderness)
Lochost (Rebellion, Change, Freedom)
Mynbruje (Justice, Compassion, Empathy, Truth)
Raggok (Vengeance, Bitterness, Jealousy)
Thystonius (Physical Conflict, Valor)
Upandal (Building, Construction, Planning)
Vestrial (Manipulation, Deceit)

I also think there was a strong crossover-vibe with shamans in Shadowrun, because the questors of the Mad Passions are pretty much toxic shamans by any other name. They actually get some expanded abilities in later supplements, though they're still stuck with the one Talent.
FrankT:

The forces of Evil get three “Mad Passions,” which is rather missing the point, I should think. The basic book doesn't have playable Clerics Questors at all, so there's no reason to really ever meet a “good” priest. But evil priests are still a genre staple. Pretty much every overrun Kaer full of Foulfolk should have an evil high priest being evil in it.

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Tell me you don't want a guy in a hat like this to line up for face stabbing.

Anyway, the three evil gods are the gods of Deceit (Vestrial), Paperwork (Dis), and Vengeance (Raggok). Priests of vengeance can apparently animate the dead, priests of deceit can confuse people, and priests of paperwork can um... also confuse people. But it's described slightly differently (not that this book has any actual rules for any of this shit). Totally missing are evil priests who turn into giant snakes, evil priests who call down columns of flame, evil priests who tear peoples' hearts out, and evil priests who summon demons. Honestly, that last one seems like the biggest oversight of all.
AncientH:

Well, all that shit falls into the basic magician disciplines, more or less. Frank and I disagree about the number and effectiveness of the Passions as presented, because he thinks Cults of the Mad Passions are great for lower-level fodder and there should be more of them. I'm...more reserved. The followers of the Mad Passions get developed a bit more later on, but few of them have any real goals beyond promoting the interests of their Passion, so you totally have Theran Slavers that are Questors of Dis, and anarchists that are Questors of Raggok and try to assassinate the king of Throal, and followers of Vestrial that go full Tzeentch with the plotting-for-plots sake. Honestly, I think the main reason there aren't more Mad Passions is because they'd already established that there were 12 and didn't want to add any after the fact.

Which, of course, stopped no-one. Because later products introduced a sect of assassins that think Death is the 13th Passion, and when the Theran Empire sourcebook came out basically all the foreign gods are interpreted as "Passion" by the Therans (who are, it is true, from Barsaive).

More than anything the Questors of the Passions were meant to fill the slight niches of, say, Druid (Questor of Jaspree), without actually having a Druid Discipline or any of the wonky requirements and thematic baggage that went with it. Indeed, one of the nice thing about Questors is that anybody or any Discipline could be a Questor...but I think that was a later development from what they were going with here.

Barsaive
The trolls raid the dwarfs,
The dwarfs dislike the elves.
The elves have no patience with humans,
and the humans war with each other.
But everyone hates the Therans.


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The default assumption is still that you start in Bartertown.

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Still not out of our system.
FrankT:

This is the final chapter of the book, and it is a 7 page description of the setting. Nominally, this chapter is a book excerpt from a Dwarven nationalistic encyclopedia. Now, nominally Earthdawn is supposed to be set in a period before the invention of nationalism, public education, the printing press, or even paper, so an excerpt from a Dwarven nationalistic encyclopedia is anachronistic in like four ways that leap out at you before even finishing that sentence, but that's ultimately a fairly minor point. Earthdawn, as previously noted, is not really set in Earth's past, but in a fantasy world where people have steel and horses and potatoes at the same time but no gunpowder. Like Greyhawk, or the Book of Mormon.

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Think of it like fantasy history fanfiction written in middle school and it makes more sense.
AncientH:

Part of this comes from Shadowrun, which in turn comes from weird conspiracy theories that the aliens built the pyramids and the ancients were much more advanced than we thought but Something Happened and everybody went back to the bronze age for a while. In Earthdawn/Shadowrun, that's supposed to literally happen/have happen because eventually the manacycle flattens out and all the magitech disappears (explosively, in some cases), but in the meantime you've got dwarfs and horses and crossbows and thundra and paper books.

Population percentages are given in this book, and for Barsaive that means that about 32% of the region is Dwarf, which is why you speak Throalic and use eight-sided coins.
FrankT:

Barsaive is a region which is defined by the extent of a province declared by an empire of comically evil fuckups from the south. This is an in-character reason why there is an accepted regional name, despite the fact that you have Dwarven kingdoms and Elven courts and Ork tribes and shit who all control different areas and have different names for their stuff. It's a pretty good reason, you don't find yourself seriously questioning that people in-character accept the name “Barsaive.” The region is not actually to scale when they give maps, but it pretty much is to scale as described in the text. They say it takes 60 days to cross the map from East to West on foot, which works out to about 33 kilometers per day of travel across the area it was traced from: Western Russia and Ukraine.

That being said, the evil Theran Empire is... dumb. We've made allusions to how dumb they are a few times, but it can't really be said enough: these are shitty villains.
AncientH:

There's some complicated stuff about how the Therans Named Barsaive, and like every other pattern the region has thread items they try to collect so that they can re-conquer the wayward province, which they really want to do and try to do...because, you might remember, the original founders of Thera were outcasts from the Elven Court and so re-conquering Barsaive is part of their national agenda.

That said, Thera is really just magical Rome/Crete, and they're an empire built on slavery and blood magic who rain death from the skies with floating castles.
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And they're good at it!
This section actually gives a really fucked-up view of the Therans, which would be backtracked and re-presented in subsequent books, because this was the first Earthdawn book and they felt the desire to walk back the stupid after they found their feet.
FrankT:

Seven pages isn't a lot of space, so most of the features get just a nod and an introduction. So there are apparently mountains that let you get a good view of the surrounding countryside, and trees which are very tall in some of the forests. The trees are described as very very tall by regional standards, as it talks about 300 foot tall trees. That's “pretty good” by North American standards, but North America has much taller trees than Eurasia has ever had. No trees in Southeast Russia are, or have ever been, nearly that tall. It's just kind of a weird thing to say. Almost no information is given about the climate, ecology, or geography, and when such information is given, it is merely to state point blank that anything you know about the real-world version of the region counts for dick diddly.

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This isn't native to this region either. But it's closer than jungles and coast redwoods is what I'm saying.
AncientH:

There's some talk about different regions and political entities, most of which are expanded on later and few of which you give a fuck about, so I'll just mention the one everybody notices: Death's Sea.
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That looks pretty good! Now fill it with lava.[/img]
Yeah, Death's Sea is basically the Black Sea, except filled with fire and magma. The actual Black Sea isn't a supervolcano, so this really does stretch the limits of disbelief quite a bit, especially since we've found ruins of where the Black Sea grew/flooded out earlier settlements. In fantasy terms, this region exists for two reasons:
1) "Mining" True Fire using airships
2) Home base for badass fire-based creatures

Because while there is an Elemental Plane of Fire in this game, it's not the kind of place where dragons hang out for a picnic. Plane-hopping in general is more like Shadowrun than Dungeons & Dragons, and so because they wanted a bunch of D&D-esque fire-based critters, you have the Death's Sea. Which looks cool, too. In the context of the setting, the dark is that the Passions actually trapped Death underneath Death's Sea, which is why some actual resurrection magic exists and works in the setting - again, this is a lot more thematic work than D&D ever managed to explain raise dead, and it's a nice note to end the review on.

Earthdawn is a game that tried to be Dungeons & Dragons where every trope was justified and every piece was a little bit better. It didn't quite do that; I would even argue the system and setting broke trying to do that. But it was a fun game, and the authors tried hard to make it fun, and I spent many an hour toiling over books and writing up things on the Ancient Files for the connections to Shadowrun. In hindsight, it wasn't the most productive use of my time, and I think later books in Earthdawn and Shadowrun were poorer for trying to shoehorn in cross-plots between the two; Earthdawn as a setting stands best on its own, in some point in a fantasy world unconnected with the world we live in. But kudos for the effort, because they did so much to try and realize a better version of D&D, and it's pretty clear the people that made D&D3 sat up and took notice. That alone makes this an influential game.

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I'm not looking forward to this...but I'm not not looking forward to it either.
Last edited by Ancient History on Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Reading Earthdawn is like reading something my father's friends would have put together around the time I was born if it had been IP scrubbed and given some hasty Shadowrun branding in 1992. At the time, it really didn't seem that revolutionary to me, because I had grown up surrounded by D&D counterculture my whole life. Looking back on it, there were lots of things that I took for granted but simply did not get published anywhere that people outside the relatively narrow circles that my dad's friends ran in would ever see it.

Back in the 1970s, it was totally "the thing" (at least, among the kind of people my father gamed with) to wildly overthink game worlds and come up with historical and anthropological justifications for things to be D&Dish. And you can kind of see where this shit was going with Empire of the Petal Throne and Glorantha. But while I've just named a few niche products that hinted that that sort of setting jamming culture existed, it didn't ever go mainstream. In the 80s, I was growing up hearing about this stuff, but the movement had mostly gone nowhere. If you look through the embarrassing tripe that ended up in Dragon Magazine during this period, you'd never know this stuff was going on.

I think these projects ultimately were consumed by their own ambition. My father had binders full of material, and he wasn't the only grognard I knew who did. But while he had enough material to run a campaign which lasted a decade, he didn't have it in publishable form. It was always being built, never being distilled into something that could be put on the market. The only guy I am aware of to make this sort of jump was Ed Greenwood, who apparently just sent his mad setting ramblings unsolicited to TSR in a big box and so impressed the people there that they launched Forgotten Realms.

So from the standpoint of the outside world, Earthdawn really was revolutionary. Although I think honestly the biggest revolution was in being connected to some professionals who could hack it all into something publishable in a reasonable amount of time.

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Post by Blicero »

Thanks for the review, I really knew basically nothing about Earthdawn prior to it.

I'm curious, for magicians, is your best option in combat generally to stick to damage dealing spells, or are SoD-ish things or summoning better options? Frank mentioned that pain Nethermancy spell that works well as a SoD type thing, I remember. Are spells like that usually the path to victory?

Overall: Is there any aspect of Earthdawn's design that modern heartbreakers could really learn from? Other than the emphasis on associated mechanics, that is.

edit
Oh, also: Did Earthdawn adventures tend to have the tragicomic meatgrinder feel that a lot of early D&D stuff did? Or were parties a bit more stable?
Last edited by Blicero on Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Back in the 1970s, it was totally "the thing" (at least, among the kind of people my father gamed with) to wildly overthink game worlds and come up with historical and anthropological justifications for things to be D&Dish.
*looks at the den*
oh the hypocricy!


this has to be one of, if not the most postive sounding OSSRs i have read here as of yet O.o
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Post by Username17 »

Blicero wrote:Thanks for the review, I really knew basically nothing about Earthdawn prior to it.

I'm curious, for magicians, is your best option in combat generally to stick to damage dealing spells, or are SoD-ish things or summoning better options? Frank mentioned that pain Nethermancy spell that works well as a SoD type thing, I remember. Are spells like that usually the path to victory?

Overall: Is there any aspect of Earthdawn's design that modern heartbreakers could really learn from? Other than the emphasis on associated mechanics, that is.
Most people who play Earthdawn as a mage hit the threading thing and just throw their hands up in despair. Threading can give spells an incredibly long casting time, and if you aren't careful you'll go a whole battle and get off just one spell or even nothing at all. Meanwhile, out of combat, threading is just a die rolling exercise - the cost in time is measured in 10 second intervals and it just doesn't fucking matter.

Now, there are some fancy things you can do involving hiding in cover while you thread and then popping up to cast, but to a first approximation anything you cast in-combat had better require zero threads or go backwards in fucking time to make you win before it is cast or it's worthless. What this means is that while there are really not that many spells in the game, most of them are bullshit. Even aside from the fact that a lot of spells are clunkers in that they do shit you don't care about, a lot of spells do things you would care about but don't because the casting time is way too long to be worth matrixing in the first place.

The winners on the spell list are action denial and conjuration. Fighter types in this do pretty decent damage, and spells like Fireball usually aren't worth using. Sure, it does Willforce+8 damage to everyone in a 10 yard radius, but it's a 5th circle spell that requires you to thread and have an available flame. But you can tie up everyone in a 20 yard radius for several rounds with an Icy Surface spell that takes no threads and is available at Circle 2. The game really wants you to pay thread costs to do damage, and you don't want to. Action denial seems to come for free, so that's your go-to combat spell options. And of course, Conjuration breaks the action economy in half. You spend a bunch of actions before combat and then you get to take a bunch of extra actions in combat. Not usually available until you get to higher circles, but good enough that it doesn't much matter.

The associated mechanics are a big deal. Probably the biggest deal. But associated setting is a big deal too. Fuck "points of light." Earthdawn had a reason that there were fucking dungeons to explore. Fucking dungeons. And it makes sense, in-world. The Scourge was a bit "nuclear war" for my taste, but it really does show that you don't have to accept "no reason" as the reason why there are adventuring locations.

You actually can make a fantasy world full of D&D monsters and races and dungeons and treasures and have that ring true as an internally consistent world. And honestly, now that Earthdawn has come out, there really isn't a lot of excuses for people to release garbage like 4e and 5e that don't even pretend to try.

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Post by Ancient History »

As mentioned, later supplements put out more spells and various options so that a magician-character that chose to optimize or got creative could launch spells very, very fast. Some of it presaged a couple of Ed Greenwood's "hanging" spells and various bits of metamagic stuff and probably owed as much to Shadowrun spell locks as anything, but the whole idea of blood matrices and enhanced matrices slotted into the game metaphysics no-problem.

As Frank mentioned, summoning was it's own ball of wax - there were spells that summoned spirits, and there was a separate thing that Elementalists could do to summon elementals and Nethermancers could do to summon ghosts, and both of those were effective in combat to an extant, but you never got the D&D-style summon monsters spells where you can straight up have a griffin appear in front of your or something. That stuff just didn't exist, probably because justifying it in the metaphysics was too difficult, and so there was never really a pokemon-master type "build" for any of the magician disciplines (and even if there was, the combat system wasn't set up for D&D3-style flanking maneuvers on anything like that scale).
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Post by Ancient History »

Blicero wrote: Oh, also: Did Earthdawn adventures tend to have the tragicomic meatgrinder feel that a lot of early D&D stuff did? Or were parties a bit more stable?
Earthdawn adventures had a few more issues than Shadowrun adventures of the same period. The assumption in Shadowrun is that you're amoral mercenary criminals being hired by party A to go do a shadowrun. It's a straightforward formula. Earthdawn adventures are closer to the D&D source, and really closer to the adventuring parties of the Forgotten Realms, where it's sort of an accepted thing that you'll have parties of adepts that band together to defend a village Seven Samurais-style or loot a kaer or rescue the children. The adventures weren't all meatgrinders by any means, but it tended to occupy the weird middle line between straight fantasy scenarios where you're heroes or mercenaries and Call of Cthulhu-esque horror scenarios where you're investigators.

But this was seriously the game where the entire premise of the Parlainth boxed set is "a gigantic pre-Scourge city just re-materialized, it's crawling with the undead and low-level horrors, and it's chock-full of treasure. Go nuts exploring it." And that was another thing that was great about the setting: so much of what was known about the world was lost or changed, you could seriously be paid to go explore and see what was in a given sector of the map and report back, and "First Contact" with kaers that thought the Scourge thing was still on was totally a thing.

Late in the edition they tried to pull off a campaign-adventure-path equivalent to Shadowrun's Blood in the Boardroom, which tied into the metaplot developments, but that's more of an exception than the rule, and there was only one significant adventure path in the setting. At mid-Circles, of course, PCs could generate their own adventures just trying to tie threads to their thread items.
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Post by Red_Rob »

So, given that Earthdawn was basically a setting that started with the idea "Explain all the D&D tropes", what are the problems with simply using 3e to run it? Seems like you could keep all the ED fluff and it wouldn't change much at all.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
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Post by Ancient History »

Red_Rob wrote:So, given that Earthdawn was basically a setting that started with the idea "Explain all the D&D tropes", what are the problems with simply using 3e to run it? Seems like you could keep all the ED fluff and it wouldn't change much at all.
Missing the point entirely. Many D&D3 mechanics might have been inspired by Earthdawn's, and ED might have been trying to justify D&D tropes, but the whole point of ED is the integration of setting and system as well as setting and troops. In Dungeons & Dragon, nobody can announce that they're a 5th level fighter in character; in Earthdawn they can. THAT is system/setting integration. More than that, porting the fluff to a different system and not only lose that, but you have a disconnect between the setting-as-written and the system-as-written, since the metaphysics that justify thread items and whatnot no longer apply.
A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
It's lazy, and it's bad worldbuilding.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
A lot of people disliked the specific implementation -in this case, taking a well - established world with lots of canon and 'blowing it up' to fit their vision. I don't care much for the Forgotten Realms, but I understand that it is more than a name.

As far as whether it can make a good setting, it absolutely can. A good 'dark ages' campaign will work that way. I think one trap that a lot of world builders make is drawing political boundaries right up against other political boundaries. In a 'standard' D&D setting, there is a lot of 'wilderness' that any claim to is essentially baseless. If your kingdom claims territory that no one can safely enter because a dragon holds sway, your claim doesn't mean anything.

So in a good setting, you can get a 'points of light' feel without going crazy with the meta - physics and planar conjunctions.
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Post by Telarus_KSC »

Great thread.
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Post by fectin »

Ancient History wrote:
A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
It's lazy, and it's bad worldbuilding.
Inherently, or just that implementation?
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Post by erik »

Blicero wrote:I'm curious, for magicians, is your best option in combat generally to stick to damage dealing spells, or are SoD-ish things or summoning better options? Frank mentioned that pain Nethermancy spell that works well as a SoD type thing, I remember. Are spells like that usually the path to victory?
Frank addressed the higher level stuff, and I'll share my starting circle experiences.

Spirit Grip isn't bad for Nethermancers as a Circle 1 Combat Spell. 0 threads which means no crying. Attack with your Spellcasting, Damage with Willforce + 6. It's like a Trollsword that you don't have to carry around. Only downside is that it doesn't work on Sacred Ground or somesuch... which I have yet to care about.

Nethermancers are nice for damage dealing since at Circle 4 they get Willforce, which is a talent whose rank adds to Willpower for spells. That's nice since other spellcasting disciplines get Willforce at Circle 5, which is the higher tier for costs when increasing talent circles. Basically the costs are one more increment higher on the Fibonnaci sequence. Since Willforce is something you want to cheese out, that's handy.

In the Earthdawn campaign I am currently playing (I think it is 1st Ed actually), I started out as an Elementalist but was wildly frustrated with combat because I was doing shit like spending rounds to do Earth Dart where I spent 2 (or 3 if unlucky) rounds to deal less damage than the Orc with her Poleaxe. It was going to be a long damn time before I could contribute in combat as an Elementalist. I took to carrying a sword just so that maybe I could trick someone into hitting me rather than someone useful. Sure at 2nd Circle I could get Icy Surface, but nobody in the party is a ranged attacker so it would've been less a game changer and more an annoyance (Ha ha, I can't do anything and neither can you!). Especially since you can't actually get Missile Weapons early and nobody in the party gets the Talent until 6th circle or higher.

If you wanted to get a ranged weapon attack as a skill instead of a Talent that takes weeks of training (more for knowledge skills, in which case years and years... 97+ years to get to Rank 10 Knowledge Skill), costs as much as Circle 9-12 Talents (2 steps up on the Fibonacci Sequence) and is a total waste once you finally do get the Talent. I really hate the take on Skills coupled with the restrictions on some Talents. Gah. Digression.

Anywho, that campaign was shelved for not quite a decade and when we returned to it, we were allowed to re-tweak our characters and I was permitted to become a Nethermancer instead. It didn't take much of a change, but I'm so happier for it. To quote one of the players after I gibbed another baddie with Spirit Grip, "I miss your Elementalist. Back then you couldn't do anything in combat."

I occasionally do miss the utility stuff from being an Elementalist (we had like a dozen of climb checks a couple sessions ago, and a little boost would've gone a long way), but I can pick that up later someday by multiclassing.
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Post by Lokathor »

On the subject of optimal spells: This spends greatly on which of the four spellcasters you are and what circle you are. Elementalists particularly have a lot of buff spells that can carry the party easily through the first few circles just by pumping their numbers big every combat. Wizards and Nethermancers get a 0 thread attack spell at first circle and so they can "blast" early on until they get something else more useful. To be honest I've never looked too closely at the Illusionist, but I'm sure they get something.

Also important is, of course, the exact edition used. In 3e, a lot of the 1e splat spells got put into the core book, so that will naturally change how things seem by quite a bit.

On the subject of being a meatgrinder: Most of the published adventures give the players plenty of time to assess a situation and try to get out before fucking over the whole party. Even a 1st or 2nd circle group can usually avoid a TPK, even if they suffer a death from time to time. Unless, of course, there's a Horror involved, at which points all bets are off.
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Post by Morat »

Fascinating review.

One question, the map of the Theran Empire...what is up with the Nile? It must be a river of glass shards and death, because it looks like the Empire deliberately conquered the shitty land west of the Nile for 2500km into the middle of Africa instead of, like, one of the most prized pieces of land for much of history.
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Post by Ancient History »

fectin wrote:
Ancient History wrote:
A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
It's lazy, and it's bad worldbuilding.
Inherently, or just that implementation?
I have a hard time saying any idea is inherently bad; generally with enough effort even an on-the-surface bad idea can have some good or interesting implementation if the circumstances are right. I think you could maybe do something interesting with a Points of Light game, you're talking about a very different theme than most D&D games, where you have various wildly-scattered, stand-alone and self-sufficient societal units and getting between them is an adventure in itself. It is the kind of game you have during an apocalyptic scenario, where you seriously might run into a town where everyone's dead but they left the defense grid up, and you need to break in to get the spare talisman for your settlement's own failing warding spells, or immediately after in a Dark Age where you get to do heroic and long-lasting stuff by helping disparate communities band together and climb out of it, building something new.

Which brings me back to another thing I like about Earthdawn: the idea that you're building your own legend, not following a prophecy to be the destined hero. It's really a self-starter campaign setting that rewards those who get off their ass, instead of deciding that this or that sprat is the anointed one.
One question, the map of the Theran Empire...what is up with the Nile? It must be a river of glass shards and death, because it looks like the Empire deliberately conquered the shitty land west of the Nile for 2500km into the middle of Africa instead of, like, one of the most prized pieces of land for much of history.
I think that's a map typo, but I haven't read the book in like ten years. Creana basically == Egypt, though, so it should be on the river.
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Post by Username17 »

fectin wrote:
Ancient History wrote:
A brief tangent: why is "points of light" so hated? I never played enough D&D 4e to get it.
It's lazy, and it's bad worldbuilding.
Inherently, or just that implementation?
I'll go farther than Ancient History and say that Points of Light is inherently lazy and bad world building.

When you reduce the parts of the setting to points, you've essentially eliminated the need for a map. 4e D&D never had a world packaged with it, because points of light doesn't need one. Essentially, the relevant thing about the "light" is where in the light you are, and if the light is merely "points" you don't have any choices about where to be. And entering the "darkness" starts questing music, so the relevant thing is really what choices you made while entering the darkness. If the darkness is in every direction, then you never made any meaningful choice when entering it.

What it boils down to is that Points of Light is Diablo. There's one town you can be in and one dungeon you can go into from it. There's no world. And that's why making that choice can't ever be anything but lazy and terrible from a world building perspective.

Contrast it with "Points of Darkness." Despite the fact that there are still dimensionless things on the map, the players have agency. If they don't like the current blacksmith, they can go somewhere else where there's a different one. If they don't want to go to Pits of Slime, they can go to Devil's Island instead. They have the choice of many towns to do business in, and they have the choice of many dungeons to raid. World building has to be much deeper, and doesn't have to be terrible (although of course, it can be).

Deeper world building still would probably have regions of darkness, regions of light, points of darkness, points of light, and things which are in-between where no one is a fucking red dot or a green dot.

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