The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
Kingmaker ?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
silva
Duke


Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 2093

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Isnt there some kind of scouting skill for.. you know scouting ahead and avoiding the more dangerous encounters ?
_________________
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ishy
Duke


Joined: 05 Aug 2011
Posts: 2404

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hogarth wrote:
Ice9 wrote:
Although in Kingmaker specifically, the random encounters are less of a "difficulty" and more "free XP, sometimes treasure".

Our level 2 party got massacred by the random shambling mound; no one could make the necessary Knowledge check to know that we should have run away instead.

The other killer encounter on the low-level random encounter chart is a will-o'-wisp, which is more than capable of causing a TPK at that level.
I was asked to DM book 4 for a group. The random encounters were weird as fuck.
I had a group of 4-5 level 10 PCs.
The random encounters varied between a single CR 6 Ettin (which I just handled cinematically) and 4 CR 11 Adult Black Dragons.

In fact, the random encounters that I bothered actually playing, were always a lot harder than the planned encounters.

While the book was really bad, the worst part was the mass combat scenario. Basically, both sides have a single attack and defence value and make 1 attack each phase.

Area spells cast in each phase add a + spell level to both the attack and defence rolls (yes it doesn't matter what the spell actually is).
And non spell casters can't influence the mass combat part at all.
_________________
Gary Gygax wrote:
The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:
I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hogarth
Prince


Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 4476
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Random encounters have exactly the same purpose today as they did when Gygax and Arneson wrote them up in the early seventies: they create a sense of urgency.

I wouldn't quite put it that way; having patrols every 10 minutes creates the same sense of urgency as having a 50% chance of a patrol every 10 minutes.

The point of a random encounter system is that it's a lazy man's way of making it feel like dungeon denizens have actual lives and they're not just sitting in a single room all day waiting for someone to come and kill them. It's a matter of verisimilitude, whether that's making a place realistically dangerous to hang around in (50% of an encounter every two minutes) or peaceful (1% of an encounter every day).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silva
Duke


Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 2093

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Both points, Hogarth and Franks, are valid. Pressure and verisimilitude.

On the pressure part, you dont need to cound time actually, just roll after any attempt by the group. Ie: the Thief tries to open a lock and fails - GM rolls for encounter. Clerig tries to heal a partner and fail - GM rolls for encounter. In resume: any time the group fails at something or is idle is also an opportunity for random encounters.
_________________
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Laertes
Duke


Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 1021
Location: The Mother of Cities

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
On the pressure part, you dont need to cound time actually, just roll after any attempt by the group. Ie: the Thief tries to open a lock and fails - GM rolls for encounter. Clerig tries to heal a partner and fail - GM rolls for encounter. In resume: any time the group fails at something or is idle is also an opportunity for random encounters.


This is a terrible idea for three reasons.

On the game level, it fails because it punishes exploration and risk-taking and rewards staid, unimaginative, dull games in which each character is only permitted to do the things in which their chance of failure is small.

On the narrative level, it fails because it creates set-piece battles rather than battles which occur during other action. If the guards arrive when you failed to open the door, then you're going to ignore the door, kill the guards, and then have another try at the door. Compare this to a battle which occurs as you open the door - it means you're going to move forward, engage in a rearguard action, use covering fire, use the door as a chokepoint, whatever. It creates interesting action, which "a guard arrives whenever you fail your Lockpick roll" does not.

On the simulation level, it fails because that isn't how guard patrols work. Failing to unlock a door or bandage a wound does not make sentries patrol any faster. The verisimilitude of the setting is damaged, and a wedge is driven between mechanics and worldbuilding.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silva
Duke


Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 2093

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I disagree, but dont have the time to elaborate right now. Ill do later.
_________________
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fectin
Prince


Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Silva's last theorem?
_________________
Vebyast wrote:
Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
nockermensch
Duke


Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 1596
Location: Rio: the Janeiro

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
Both points, Hogarth and Franks, are valid. Pressure and verisimilitude.

On the pressure part, you dont need to cound time actually, just roll after any attempt by the group. Ie: the Thief tries to open a lock and fails - GM rolls for encounter. Clerig tries to heal a partner and fail - GM rolls for encounter. In resume: any time the group fails at something or is idle is also an opportunity for random encounters.

It took just two pages for the inevitable silva-world pitch.
_________________
@ @ Nockermensch

Koumei wrote:
After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fectin
Prince


Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The frequency is increasing. We're heading towards a silvularity.
_________________
Vebyast wrote:
Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Laertes
Duke


Joined: 24 Apr 2014
Posts: 1021
Location: The Mother of Cities

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quick, nobody make any Alertness rolls!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ishy
Duke


Joined: 05 Aug 2011
Posts: 2404

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hogarth wrote:
I wouldn't quite put it that way; having patrols every 10 minutes creates the same sense of urgency as having a 50% chance of a patrol every 10 minutes.
Not really. Having patrols on a fixed schedule means you can plan around that.
_________________
Gary Gygax wrote:
The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:
I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nockermensch
Duke


Joined: 06 Jan 2012
Posts: 1596
Location: Rio: the Janeiro

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Laertes wrote:
Quick, nobody make any Alertness rolls!

silva don't want to understand that when you set additional complications contingent to dice roll failures you're actually removing incentives to player participation.
_________________
@ @ Nockermensch

Koumei wrote:
After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27024

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Laertes wrote:
Frank Trollman wrote:
Unlike silva, I actually do understand what you're talking about, and I don't agree with you. Random encounters have exactly the same purpose today as they did when Gygax and Arneson wrote them up in the early seventies: they create a sense of urgency.


You're right: we do disagree.

If every X minutes of in game time, there's a risk of a random patrol happening, coming along, then it creates a sense of urgency. If every new hex you move into or town you move between or stretch of corridor you move down gives you a random encounter, then it doesn't create a sense of urgency at all; it creates a sense of turtling. If travel causes difficulties then you don't travel. When you have to travel, you do so slowly and carefully and in battle formation.

A sense of urgency should impel people towards fast, risky, rash action. Anything that punishes them for risky, rash movement does the opposite of that.

If you want a real sense of urgency then you do it right: you put a clock on the scene, and as that clock ticks down the remaining defences get stronger and new ones arrive. That way, sacrificing resources, tactics and reconnaissance in favour of speed becomes a valid choice.


This is just a really weird comment no matter how you try to parse it. But for starters, before you announced that you didn't agree with me, you cut this caveat from the statement you were supposedly disagreeing with:

Frank wrote:
If your current mission is just to wander around the wilderness until adventure finds you, then a random Manticore is just like an encounter that means something except it doesn't fucking mean anything.


In short, the thing you just said you didn't agree with me in terms of random encounters creating a sense of urgency is actually one of the two major caveats I already gave about the limits to the use of random encounters as a source of urgent feelings. So I really don't know what the hell you're supposed to be disagreeing with.

For the record, the other thing I said was a limit to random encounters as a source of urgency was bug hunts - if your goal is to murder every single thing in the compound, encountering some of the things in the compound earlier rather than later is just them doing your job for you and doesn't make things more urgent at all.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Blicero
Duke


Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 1005

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Even in missions that are strictly about the bug hunt, wandering monsters can still create a sense of uncertainty in the environment. If the PCs about to launch an assault on a major area and a wandering monster shows up behind them or whatever, then that creates an interesting and unexpected strategic dilemma for the PCs. And if you have multiple factions in an area, wandering monster tables can generate when and where hostile encounters between factions take place.
_________________
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberzombie
Knight-Baron


Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Posts: 742

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Laertes wrote:

RPG combat takes a lot of time, slows the game to a crawl and carries the threat of killing PCs. Therefore, to do it at all in a place which isn't actually meaningful is subtracting from the rest of the game. You spend at least an hour and end up with... what? By definition there is nothing meaningful to be gained from a random encounter, and there is the possibility of loss. This isn't worth *free*, let alone at least an hour of my life.


Random encounters made sense back when you could get through combats quickly. In the modern rules-heavy RPG, combats just take way too long to really even want to include random encounters. They're a huge annoyance due to the time sink.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hogarth
Prince


Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 4476
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ishy wrote:
hogarth wrote:
I wouldn't quite put it that way; having patrols every 10 minutes creates the same sense of urgency as having a 50% chance of a patrol every 10 minutes.
Not really. Having patrols on a fixed schedule means you can plan around that.

And it's not possible to plan around random encounters on a fixed schedule?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silva
Duke


Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 2093

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You dont need to preplan fixed schedules to play around that - if a player hacks the patrol database (or persuades some insider to tell the schedules) then just wing it and avoid some encounters temporarily for the players.
_________________
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
virgil
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5970

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
You dont need to preplan fixed schedules to play around that - if a player hacks the patrol database (or persuades some insider to tell the schedules) then just wing it and avoid some encounters temporarily for the players.
How do you not see the disempowerment to players? They ask for a schedule and you give them quantum bears...
_________________
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakuya Izayoi
Knight


Joined: 26 Nov 2013
Posts: 395

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It sounds like its important that you have an ability that interacts with random encounters. If a Ranger can have "Pacify Dire Weasels" on their sheet, then no one will ever want to roll a Ranger if you decide rolling for dire weasel encounters is too old school. If, however, your system for how many dire weasels a party with a Ranger encounters has been completely Zak Sed, then you might as well not have random encounters, and yes, you're better off turtling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silva
Duke


Joined: 26 Mar 2013
Posts: 2093

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
silva wrote:
You dont need to preplan fixed schedules to play around that - if a player hacks the patrol database (or persuades some insider to tell the schedules) then just wing it and avoid some encounters temporarily for the players.
How do you not see the disempowerment to players? They ask for a schedule and you give them quantum bears...

They didnt ask for a schedule, they asked for avoiding patrols. Thus, if they have the right skills and succeed at using it, just let them avoid it. I dont see where is the "disempowerment" here.

Now if they want an actual schedule to plan around, well just produce it and hand it to them. All depends on the degree of detailism the group wants from the adventure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fectin
Prince


Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zombocom makes RPGs now?
_________________
Vebyast wrote:
Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
virgil
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5970

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

silva wrote:
They didnt ask for a schedule, they asked for avoiding patrols.
silva wrote:
You dont need to preplan fixed schedules to play around that - if a player hacks the patrol database (or persuades some insider to tell the schedules)

_________________
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cyberzombie
Knight-Baron


Joined: 16 Aug 2013
Posts: 742

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

For the record, the other thing I said was a limit to random encounters as a source of urgency was bug hunts - if your goal is to murder every single thing in the compound, encountering some of the things in the compound earlier rather than later is just them doing your job for you and doesn't make things more urgent at all.


Logically yes, but not very many adventures/modules actually deduct random encounters from the dungeon map as a whole. Random encounters are rolled from a table and spontaneously generate out of nowhere. Even if room 10 is the only one with gnolls and you kill 3 random gnoll patrols, the number of gnolls in room 10 probably will not change at all.


Last edited by Cyberzombie on Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12052

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My party is experiencing Kingmaker, and we have a different view than what most people here have said. First off, we are using the SRD rules mostly, but with the occasional add in from the books.

The first thing that happens, is we discover that Brothels don't exist on the SRD for no comprehensible reason.

The second thing is, before any of us except the DM have read the rules, we think we will make a house and herbalist to start, because it creates magic items, and we vaguely remember Smeelbo saying that magic items are a great way to get wealth.

Then we spend a lot of time trying to figure out slot efficiencies because we are all filthy min-maxers. Then we end the session.

The I read the part about the magic items and realize that Smeelbo is full of shit, and there is absolutely no way to use magic items to get extra wealth until you have a base value of your city of at least 16k, which is also the maximum you get at the final level of super metropolis with 3 districts filled with magic items.

So then I go back to sorting slot efficiency info, and discover that the Mint is:

1) The most slot efficient.
2) Adds the second most to economy, after only bank, and only one less than bank, and costs 2BP more.
3) Adds to every single roll.

Apparently the ideal city (assuming you can afford to build one building per turn that is always a Mint) is 84 consecutive Mints, followed by some houses around Magic Shops just so that you can get access to some Major Magic Items to buy with your now insane wealth. Early on, there are going to be a few turns where you can't build a mint but can build something else, and you have to ask yourself if it's worth it to build slot inefficient buildings, but since the only one that would even be worth building besides a Mint (since BP is your god king and nothing else matters) is the Bank, and it's like 2 cheaper, there's not much reason to build it.

Occasionally if you get unrest, throw down a free house if you have the BP to erase said unrest, but even that, you can wait and let your spymaster do it, and you should build those houses to prepare for the 8 magic item shops you are going to want to slap down once you have 84 mints.
_________________
"DSMatticus" wrote:
Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Ice9
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1525

PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The kingdom rules changed slightly between the Kingmaker AP and when they appeared in Ultimate Campaign (which is what the version in the SRD is).

Notably:
* Brothel renamed to Dance Hall
* You can no longer order shops to sell things for extra BP. This used to be the major source of income for the kingdom, and the Black Market was the most efficient way to do it. Now it's pretty useless.
* As you've noticed, Mint is now the most efficient building. Which was a pretty poor outcome, because it's one that looks stupid fluff-wise to have a large number of.
* There are a lot more tile improvements and they're more important than in the AP version.
* Some buildings now modify the settlement stats (Corruption, Crime, etc), which is kind of cool.
* It's still just a bunch of numbers masquerading as a fine-tuned system, there's no mathematical integrity there.


Last edited by Ice9 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion... All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group